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In the Name of God بسم الله

Struggling to accept some beliefs of Shi’a Islam

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Guest Looking for Truth

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Posted (edited)
On 6/16/2020 at 10:26 PM, Guest Looking for Truth said:

The second issue I have with Shi’a Islam is that a lot of it is too focused on the teachings of the Ahlulbayt, rather then the Qur’an.

 To the OP and other sunnies thinking more seriously about Shia faith

 

I would follow @kadhim' advice,  first all Shia beliefs are based on usul e deen and furu edeen start there.

Read Imam Jafere Sadiqs Latern of the path,  a book directly written by the Imam on Jihad e Nafs. Work on aqeedah, ikhlaaq.

The things  like lanaah,  tatbir,  Ya Ali Madad instead of Salam have little to do with actual Traditions of our Masoomeen,  and more to do with cultural and historical innovations.

As the brother @kadhim  feel free to leave other extraneous ideas and choose what you feel in your heart is correct. Allah has given you a life line to Hadaya, don't throw it away.

But please don't be  Quranist , the hadith thaqalayn was emphasized so much, because the interpretation of the word of God Is difficult and requires trained and celestially guided interpreters.

Edited by Hasani Samnani
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Salam

18 hours ago, Cool said:

Salamun Alaikum Brother!!

I am in a position where I have made my self free from this debate & this matter. 

What I want to inquire about, since you are in Iran and have access to mujtahedeen, is that how can we deny the "possibility" that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can forget something while the verses of chapter 87:6-7 are mentioning the same? Can you ask this question from any marj'a's office? 

According to our belief, Imams are not "masloob" means God has not taken away from them the ability to sin & ability to disobey His commands. It is the luft of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His bestowed knowledge that causes these blessed personalities to abstain by their own will, from doing anything bad, even from doing the tarak al-awla and disobeying God.

And mind that I am only talking about the "possibility". Not that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget anything or not as mentioned in some ahadith.

I hope you will help me in this matter.

Wassalam!!

Salam according to all of Shia Marjas in Iran Sahw al-Nabī is not true anyway there is a point in narration from Sheikh Saduq (رضي الله عنه) & his master Ibn Walid is that it has not been Sahw (سهو) due to influence of Shaitan likewise story of Gharaniq but on the other hand Sheikh Saduq (رضي الله عنه) has called it Es'ha (اِسهاء) which is possible that Allah  has caused in prophet for teaching of  people which if such mistake happened for them  so they can solve their problem according to act of prophet Muhammad (pbu) anyway Ijma of all Shia scholars & Shia Mrjas is about refuting happening of it which in narration Imam sadiq (عليه السلام) has explained solving of problem to a matter which all people whether Sunni or shia have been heard about this story which has been accustomed to prophet Muhammad (pbu)

Quote

Sheikh Hurr Ameli said:

"The hadith narrated by Nawasib and some ignorant Shiites regarding the Prophet's (peace and blessings of God be upon him and his progeny) mistake while praying which is one of the Wahid reports that neither brings certainty nor obligates an action. (19)

Sheikh Mufid (may Allah has mercy on him) took the matter to the end and considered the hadiths related to the Prophet's negligence to be from the Nawasib and writes:

"The weakness of this narration (narration of Dhuwalideen) is similar to the weakness of the news in which it is stated that the Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) neglected to pray in the morning prayer and in the first rak'ah, he recited Surah An-Najm up to the verses «أَ فَرَأَیْتُمُ اللَّاتَ وَ الْعُزَّى وَ مَناةَ الثَّالِثَةَ الْأُخْر‌»: Then Satan uttered the sentence «تِلْکَ الْغَرَانِیقُ الْعُلَى وَ إِنَّ شَفَاعَتَهُنَّ لَتُرْتَجَى»  on his tongue, then the Prophet understood. Therefore, he prostrated and the Muslims also prostrated following him. The polytheists also prostrated out of happiness and thought that the Prophet had entered their religion... If it is possible that the Prophet made a mistake in his prayer (while he was the imam of the congregation) and turned away before finishing the prayer and the people saw and He should be warned, it should be possible for him to neglect fasting and eat and drink in the midst of people on the day of the holy month of Ramadan, and people will stare at him and say to him: It is the month of Ramadan, what is wrong with what you are doing? ? Stop doing this wrong... and during Hajj rites and in Ihram, he  Intercourses  and performs Sa'i before Tawaf and he does not know how to perform Remi Jamrat; Rather, it should be possible for him to make a mistake in all the actions of the Shari'ah and take them to another place from it's limit and place them at times other than theirs, and there is no fault if he accidentally drinks wine or if he thinks that wine is halal, and then he understand it [that he has made mistake]. , and there should be no fault that he informs about himself or from someone else who is not his Lord and... these are all things that no Muslim, no Ghali, and no monotheist will allow. Therefore, the person who prescribes Sahw-ul-Nabi has gone beyond the limits of moderation and has caused a scandal... (In addition to all this) there is no known person by the name of Dhu aydain, and we have not found any hadith about this man, neither in the Usul nor in the narrators, nor has there been any mention of him." (20)

19). التنبیه بالمعلوم من البرهان، الشیخ الحرّ العاملی، ص 7.

https://lib.eshia.ir/27086/1/29

20). بحارالأنوار، ج 17، ص 124 و 129.

Bihar al-anwar , v 17 , p 124 &129

https://www.makarem.ir/main.aspx?lid=0&typeinfo=1&catid=30748&pageindex=4&mid=411600

http://hadith.net/post/5215/تحليل-و-بررسی-روايات-سهو-النبی-صل-ی-الله-عليه-و-آله-و-سل-م/p57/?n=280

https://rasekhoon.net/article/show/1466695/روایات-سهوالنبی-به-چه-روایاتی-میگویند

https://fa.wikifeqh.ir/عدم_سهو_النبی_(کتاب)

https://fa.wikifeqh.ir/عدم_سهو_النبی_(کتاب)

43. What Is The Myth Of Gharaniq Or ‘The Satanic Verses’?

https://www.al-islam.org/180-questions-enquiries-about-islam-volume-2-various-issues/43-what-myth-gharaniq-or-satanic-verses

9 hours ago, Cool said:

I think we need to ponder here on few things:

1. What is meant by "rijs"? 

According to many ahadith rijs has been mentioned as الشك (doubt), so we cannot apply verse of purification here. If we apply it here, it would contradict the verse of chapter 87:6-7 where exception is clear as الا ما شاء الله. 

2. Can Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) lose His قدرت (power or control) over His servants after bestowing them gifts like grace, mercy, knowledge, wilayah etc?

No, He remains in control. So whenever He will to let the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget something, He certainly able to do that. And the same is the view point of Allama Tabatabai who said this in his tafseer Al-Mezan:

وقوله: " إلا ما شاء الله " استثناء مفيد لبقاء القدرة الإلهية على اطلاقها وأن هذه العطية وهي الأقراء بحيث لا تنسى لا ينقطع عنه سبحانه بالاعطاء بحيث لا يقدر بعد على انسائك بل هو باق على اطلاق قدرته له أن يشاء انساءك متى شاء

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/2425_تفسير-الميزان-السيد-الطباطبائي-ج-٢٠/الصفحة_265#top

And the same is what I found in tafseer al-Qummi:

إلا ما شاء الله) لأنه لا يؤمن النسيان اللغوي وهو الترك لان الذي لا ينسى هو الله

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/2338_تفسير-القمي-علي-بن-إبراهيم-القمي-ج-٢/الصفحة_417

 

Quote

In the book of Abhi al-Madad, Ibn Atiyyah pointed out the scope of infallibility and examined infallibility from minor and major sins, all mistakes and even  Sahw and forgetfulness based on the verse of purification and said:

"The meaning of the verse is, «منظور آیه «إِنَّما یُرِیدُ اللَّهُ‌ لِیُذْهِبَ‌ عَنْکُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَیْتِ وَ یُطَهِّرَکُمْ تَطْهِیراً»(5)(God's Takwini will is to purify the Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them)). And the meaning of Allah's Takwini will to remove the impurity is that; Indeed, Allah has made them innocent of sins, errors, negligence, mistakes, and forgetfulness, and everything that prevents people from accepting the call." (6)

Allameh Majlesi also says about the scope of the concept of innocence:

"The Imamiyyah have a consensus on the infallibility of the Prophets and Imams (peace be upon them) from minor and major sins, intentional and accidental, and due to forgetfulness, before prophethood and Imamate and after that, rather from the time of birth until the time of meeting Allah, have consensus  and someone has not opposed it; Except for Sheikh Saduq and his teacher Ibn Walid (may Allah  bless them) who considered it possible to be from Allah, not an inadvertence that comes from Satan. But the opposition of these two people does not harm the consensus (and the invalidity of Sahw al-Nabi remains as it is). But mistakes in non-obligatory and haraam matters - such as permissible and abominable things - apparently, most of our Imami companions also have a consensus on not issuing them; As many verses and traditions also indicate them". (7)

(6). أبهى المداد فی شرح مؤتمر علماء بغداد، ج‌1، ص617.

(7). حیوة القلوب‌، ج1، ص65.

Hayat Al-Qulub, v1 , p 65

https://pdf.lib.eshia.ir/94240/1/65

https://www.makarem.ir/main.aspx?lid=0&typeinfo=1&catid=30748&pageindex=4&mid=411600

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol-1-stories-prophets-muhammad-baqir-majlisi

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9 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

87:6-7 - is the exception about "recitation" or about "forget"?

Its about forgetfulness in recitation precisely, as the verse says "We will make you recite so you shall not forget, except what Allah pleases"

And in anyway of translation, the exception given there, cannot be denied brother. And I think there is no problem in it.

Because forgetfulness, if happen because of shaytan, shows the ghaflat & hence can be considered as sin or zulm. But if the reason of forgetfulness is God Himself, it is no problem then. 

9 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

He is "Inna allaha ala kulli shay'in qadir" but He is not going to start having cows give honey and bees give milk.

Interesting argument!

But we are talking about the possibilities here. Can cows start giving honey if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wills so? 

Let me elaborate what is in my mind. There are few possibilities, which I am not saying Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ever did that, but they are mentioned in Quran, for instance in verse of Balligh, the phrase:

وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ

5:67) and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message

The phrase "and if you do it not" shows the presence of natural human tendency to disobey any command. The ismah or protection is perhaps the divine grace, divine mercy & divine knowledge bestowed to Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which enable him to obey the divine command by his will. Otherwise what reason is there for mentioning "and if you do it not", if there is no possibility in him to disobey? I mean we don't believe the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is like robot (na'udobillah). 

In chapter 69, verse 44-47 although mentioning the impossibility of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to fabricate anything against God. Yet God said "had he done so( i.e., fabricated anything against God), We would certainly have seized him by the right hand and would have cut off his aorta."

How should we understand these sort of verses? 

I am writing every sort of argument just to enable the readers that we are keeping everything in our sight before reaching to any conclusion. This is what the school of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام taught us.

6 hours ago, layman said:

The verses show the difference between

PROTECTOR and Protected

This is an excellent response. 

9 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

This would be akin to debating "can Allah make a rock he can't lift?". Allah has power over all things but this does not mean He goes against the rules He established onto himself. I would say however you answer "Can Allah lie?" is the same answer as "Can Allah make the Prophet forget?

Ok, so you mean to say the since God has made it obligatory on Himself to protect & help Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from forgetfulness etc., therefore He cannot go against His established rules.

Again, we need to see where is that rule? We know that Shaytan has no power over the mukhlas servants of God (15:42 & some other verses) so it is established that shaytan cannot make him forget anything. But where God said that He will not let Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget anything? 

 

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55 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

The meaning of the verse is, «منظور آیه «إِنَّما یُرِیدُ اللَّهُ‌ لِیُذْهِبَ‌ عَنْکُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَیْتِ وَ یُطَهِّرَکُمْ تَطْهِیراً»(5)(God's Takwini will is to purify the Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them)). And the meaning of Allah's Takwini will to remove the impurity is that; Indeed, Allah has made them innocent of sins, errors, negligence, mistakes, and forgetfulness, and everything that prevents people from accepting the call." (6)

Ok, so it says the نص is the verse of purification. It is the very reason. 

Yes, I have seen that rijs is not limited to شك (doubt) as there are many verses in Quran which mention the physical & spiritual forms of rijs:

أَو لَحمَ خِنزِيرٍ فَإِنَّهُ رِجسٌ  (الأنعام:145).

وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَرَضٌ فَزَادَتهُم رِجساً إِلَى رِجسِهِم وَمَاتُوا وَهُم كَافِرُونَ  (التوبة:125)

فَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يَهدِيَهُ يَشرَح صَدرَهُ لِلإِسلامِ وَمَن يُرِد أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجعَل صَدرَهُ ضَيِّقاً حَرَجاً كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ كَذَلِكَ يَجعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لا يُؤمِنُونَ  (الأنعام:145).

Obviously it means they are protected from being contaminated by the acts of shaytan (physical & spiritual). But Sheikh Sadooq mentioning the forgetfulness as "act of God".

I think there must be a convincing answer, I need to take some time to find its answer. 

And I think the answer resides in the verse:

إِنَّمَا الخَمرُ وَالمَيسِرُ وَالأَنصابُ وَالأَزلامُ رِجسٌ مِن عَمَلِ الشَّيطانِ فَاجتَنِبُوهُ لَعَلَّكُم تُفلِحُونَ [المائدة: 90]

Will get back here with something convincing Insha Allah.

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9 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

I have never understood this claim that shias talk about the AhlulBayt more than the Quran or that we give more preference to them over the Quran.

Quran and AhlulBayt go hand in hand. The discussions about the AhlulBayt are always within an Islamic and Quranic context. Whenever we talk about the AhlulBayt, we are really talking about how they lived their lives on Islamic principles and followed the Quran and Sunnah. They showed us how to live our lives adhering to the standards set in the Quran.

I am not saying you are doing this @hamz786 but this narrative was created to distance us from the AhlulBayt and no other reason.

I see what you say brother, and yes I do agree with you. Like I said nearly every Shia scholarly book I've read emphasises the Quran many times and how the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are literal reflections of the Quran itself.

I think its moreso a criticism on the lack of modern interaction with Quran maybe? From my experience in my own community there's not many of my common Shia who are hafiz for example (including myself). Outsiders see us reciting Latmiyat and Nohay a whole lot more than they see us reading Quran. 

I remember someone said to me that our Nohay/Latmiya get millions of views on the web, but where are our Qaris? 

Maybe it doesn't mean much because I have no doubt every person reads the Quran in some way or another in their own privacy. However others have a rich "culture" when it comes to spreading the Quran through its recitation. However again, it's just an observation on my part.

Also, I don't want to derail this thread but if anyone can tell me of some really good Qaris with a Shia background, I would be grateful. Just DM me, and maybe we could start a thread somewhere and get a list sorted InshaAllah

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13 hours ago, Cool said:

Did God make him forget something in salah as mentioned in some sunni & shia ahadith? 

Brother, I would like to address this point. If Allah (عزّ وجلّ) had made prophet to forget in salah, would it not lead an enemy to find fault in the personality of prophet. Secondly, if you read history, you will be amazed to find that those who use to call prophet to be like themselves leveled such blame on the basis of eating food and living like them and not forgetfulness.

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Posted (edited)
33 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Brother, I would like to address this point. If Allah (عزّ وجلّ) had made prophet to forget in salah, would it not lead an enemy to find fault in the personality of prophet. Secondly, if you read history, you will be amazed to find that those who use to call prophet to be like themselves leveled such blame on the basis of eating food and living like them and not forgetfulness.

Brother, the matter of forgetfulness in salah has been resolved as I have cited the ahadith in Shi'i & Sunni books and have found a convincing answer of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), who answers the question "Did you forget or you have shortened?" by saying "I did not forget nor have I shortened the prayer". His words are suffice.

Now this topic has been condensed to a point, whether or not God make him forget something? 

@ShiaMan14 said no, because God cannot go against His rules. And the same is the view of all Shia scholars who view ayat e tatheer as an evidence that God has granted him the protection from forgetfulness. Except Sheikh Sadooq & his teacher who holds the view that God can make him forget if He wills so. 

I am working on it too and Insha Allah I will come to the point by the help of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & those whom He has assigned the duty to explain the verses of Quran. Insha Allah very soon.

 

Edited by Cool
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1 hour ago, Cool said:

And the same is the view of all Shia scholars who view ayat e tatheer as an evidence that God has granted him the protection from forgetfulness. Except Sheikh Sadooq & his teacher who holds the view that God can make him forget if He wills so. 

The discussion is a bit more complex than how you present it.  Saduq and his teacher are not the only ones, Sharif al Murtadha and others also had similar views. 

Also, the ayah of tatheer is indeed used to explain the fact that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) wouldn't sin but rijs doesn't necessarily refer to common mistakes or forgetfulness. 

The short answer to the initial question is that both views exist among classical and contemporary ulama.

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59 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

The discussion is a bit more complex than how you present it.  Saduq and his teacher are not the only ones, Sharif al Murtadha and others also had similar views. 

I don't think it is complex. The single report mentioning Dhul Shimalayn or Dhul Yadayn in Sheikh Sadooq's book is not sufficient evidence. If any such event happened in congregational prayers, there has to be many reporters/narrators along with the confirmed khabar of which salah that was.

And lastly, the words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as quoted in the narration of Bukhari & Abi Dawood are sufficient for us where he said "I did not forget nor have I shortened the prayer". Neither are there any consensus on which prayer was that actually. Sheikh Sadooq mention it was salat al-fajar, Bukhari mentioned Isha, Abi Dawood mentioned either from Zohar, Asr or Isha. Keeping all these facts in view, the narrations are not sufficient for building any aqeedah on them.

There can be multiple possible explanations for as to how Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) taught the companions how to perform sajda al-sahw. I am leaving them to scholars.

Till now, I am however, unable to reach to anything which could help me suggest that God has given Him the protection from forgetting. So the only point left from Sheikh Sadooq's statement is that "his forgetfulness is caused by God". 

I have cited two more verses which talks about forgetfulness:

1-

مَا نَنْسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنْسِهَا نَأْتِ بِخَيْرٍ مِنْهَا أَوْ مِثْلِهَا ۗ أَلَمْ تَعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ {106}

[Shakir 2:106] Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

2-

وَلَا تَكُونُوا كَالَّذِينَ نَسُوا اللَّهَ فَأَنْسَاهُمْ أَنْفُسَهُمْ ۚ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ {19}

[Shakir 59:19] And be not like those who forsook Allah, so He made them forsake their own souls: these it is that are the transgressors.

In the first verse, His causing to forget some verses (here too I have some confusion in reaching to the exact meaning of ننسها ), is the expression of His mercy as He replaces them with a better or equal verse. And interestingly, it ends on phrase "do you not know that Allah has power over all things".

And there is a hadith from Imam Ali al-Rada (عليه السلام) in tafseer Imam Hasan Askari (عليه السلام):

قال الإمام عليه السلام: قال محمد بن علي بن موسى الرضا عليهم السلام:
(ما ننسخ من آية) بأن نرفع حكمها (أو ننسها) بأن نرفع رسمها، ونزيل عن القلوب حفظها وعن قلبك يا محمد كما قال الله تعالى (سنقرئك فلا تنسى إلا ما شاء الله) (1) أن ينسيك فرفع ذكره عن قلبك.

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/2334_تفسير-الإمام-العسكري-ع-المنسوب-إلى-الإمام-العسكري-ع/الصفحة_497

In the second verse, His causing to forget their own souls, is the expression of withdrawal of His mercy in response to the act of people where they forget Him.

So the second verse cannot be applied to the One whose whole being is nothing but the "Zikr" and who has been sent as mercy for the whole worlds.

Point here is that when God cause something to be forgotten, it may be a sign of His mercy according to 2:106 as something better or equal is given in replacement. So up to this point, I am unable to rule out the opinion of Sheikh Sadooq (i.e., Prophet's forgetfulness is caused by God). 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Cool said:

Ok, so it says the نص is the verse of purification. It is the very reason. 

Yes, I have seen that rijs is not limited to شك (doubt) as there are many verses in Quran which mention the physical & spiritual forms of rijs:

أَو لَحمَ خِنزِيرٍ فَإِنَّهُ رِجسٌ  (الأنعام:145).

وَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَرَضٌ فَزَادَتهُم رِجساً إِلَى رِجسِهِم وَمَاتُوا وَهُم كَافِرُونَ  (التوبة:125)

فَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يَهدِيَهُ يَشرَح صَدرَهُ لِلإِسلامِ وَمَن يُرِد أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجعَل صَدرَهُ ضَيِّقاً حَرَجاً كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ كَذَلِكَ يَجعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لا يُؤمِنُونَ  (الأنعام:145).

Obviously it means they are protected from being contaminated by the acts of shaytan (physical & spiritual). But Sheikh Sadooq mentioning the forgetfulness as "act of God".

I think there must be a convincing answer, I need to take some time to find its answer. 

And I think the answer resides in the verse:

إِنَّمَا الخَمرُ وَالمَيسِرُ وَالأَنصابُ وَالأَزلامُ رِجسٌ مِن عَمَلِ الشَّيطانِ فَاجتَنِبُوهُ لَعَلَّكُم تُفلِحُونَ [المائدة: 90]

Will get back here with something convincing Insha Allah.

I like to add the following verses of quran for further clarification in addition to the verse of purification that has already been quoted:

وَإِنَّكَ لَتُلَقَّى الْقُرْآنَ مِن لَّدُنْ حَكِيمٍ عَلِيمٍ

And most surely you are made to receive the Quran from the Wise, the Knowing Allah. (27:6)

وَإِنَّهُ لَتَنزِيلُ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

نَزَلَ بِهِ الرُّوحُ الْأَمِينُ

عَلَىٰ قَلْبِكَ لِتَكُونَ مِنَ الْمُنذِرِينَ

And most surely this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. The Faithful Spirit has descended with it, 

Upon your heart that you may be of the warners. ( 26:192-194.)

59:21  ‏لَوْ أَنزَلْنَا هَذَا ٱلْقُرْءَانَ عَلَىٰ جَبَلٍۢ لَّرَأَيْتَهُۥ خَشِعًۭا مُّتَصَدِّعًۭا مِّنْ خَشْيَةِ ٱللَّهِ ۚ وَتِلْكَ ٱلْأَمْثَلُ نَضْرِبُهَا لِلنَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَفَكَّرُونَ ‎

 Had We sent down this Quran on a mountain, you would certainly have seen it falling down, splitting asunder because of the fear of Allah, and We set forth these parables to men that they may reflect

In the light of above verses of Quran the prophet saw received the quran on his heart. The heart of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is stronger than the mountains as there cannot be any splitting etc but for the mountains it could happen in the light of above verses of quran if there was any revelation of verses on it. 

Thus i may conclude with my words that in the light of above verses of quran since the heart of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is stronger than the mountains and as per verse of purification every rijs has been kept away from him, there is no chance of any sahw / forgetting  etc by the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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1 hour ago, Cool said:

I don't think it is complex. The single report mentioning Dhul Shimalayn or Dhul Yadayn in Sheikh Sadooq's book is not sufficient evidence. If any such event happened in congregational prayers, there has to be many reporters/narrators along with the confirmed khabar of which salah that was.

I didn't mean prayer alone, rather the more general discussion of what exactly isma' encompasses 

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7 hours ago, hamz786 said:

I remember someone said to me that our Nohay/Latmiya get millions of views on the web, but where are our Qaris? 

Maybe it doesn't mean much because I have no doubt every person reads the Quran in some way or another in their own privacy. However others have a rich "culture" when it comes to spreading the Quran through its recitation. However again, it's just an observation on my part.

Also, I don't want to derail this thread but if anyone can tell me of some really good Qaris with a Shia background, I would be grateful. Just DM me, and maybe we could start a thread somewhere and get a list sorted InshaAllah

Some of it is valid and some isn't. So often times, lectures start with Yaseen >> kisa >> mersiya >> lecture >> noha/latmiya. So in a 1.5 hour program, there is 10 min of Quran. Conversely in a sunni setting, they may do 30 min of recitation, 30 min of translation, 30 min of explanation.

However, quran is all they have so that's all they discuss. We have a fuller Islam because of the AhlulBayt so our dynamics are different. A crude analogy would be that I have 2 apples and you have an apple and an orange. Then, I start criticizing you for only ever eating 1 apple a day. :) 

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8 hours ago, Cool said:

Its about forgetfulness in recitation precisely, as the verse says "We will make you recite so you shall not forget, except what Allah pleases"

And in anyway of translation, the exception given there, cannot be denied brother. And I think there is no problem in it.

Because forgetfulness, if happen because of shaytan, shows the ghaflat & hence can be considered as sin or zulm. But if the reason of forgetfulness is God Himself, it is no problem then. 

brother - have you read the commentary that was posted on this ayahs above? It is clear that Allah would not make the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

8 hours ago, Cool said:

Interesting argument!

But we are talking about the possibilities here. Can cows start giving honey if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wills so? 

Perhaps a better way to explain is can versus would.

Can Allah make the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget? YES
Would Allah make the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget? NO

Allah's will is not abstract nor without reason. It's okay to say Allah cannot do certain things - Allah cannot lie; Allah cannot be unjust; Allah cannot be ignorant, etc;

9 hours ago, Cool said:

Let me elaborate what is in my mind. There are few possibilities, which I am not saying Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ever did that, but they are mentioned in Quran, for instance in verse of Balligh, the phrase:

وَإِن لَّمْ تَفْعَلْ فَمَا بَلَّغْتَ رِسَالَتَهُ

5:67) and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message

The phrase "and if you do it not" shows the presence of natural human tendency to disobey any command. The ismah or protection is perhaps the divine grace, divine mercy & divine knowledge bestowed to Holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which enable him to obey the divine command by his will. Otherwise what reason is there for mentioning "and if you do it not", if there is no possibility in him to disobey? I mean we don't believe the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is like robot (na'udobillah). 

In chapter 69, verse 44-47 although mentioning the impossibility of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to fabricate anything against God. Yet God said "had he done so( i.e., fabricated anything against God), We would certainly have seized him by the right hand and would have cut off his aorta."

How should we understand these sort of verses? 

I am writing every sort of argument just to enable the readers that we are keeping everything in our sight before reaching to any conclusion. This is what the school of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام taught us.

But in this case, it is not the Will of Allah but the will/ability of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). The Infallibility of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the Masoomeen (عليه السلام) is a choice they make and not forced or automatic.

Can the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) disobey Allah? YES
Would the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) disobey Allah? NO. 

I think we are in agreement. The only disconnect seems the actions of the Prophet versus the actions of Allah being different.

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21 hours ago, Cool said:

Here is the translation:

Narrates Ibn Seereen:

Abu Huraira said, "Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) led us in one of the two `Isha' prayers (Abu Huraira named that prayer but I forgot it)." Abu Huraira added, "He prayed two rak`at and then finished the prayer with Taslim. He stood up near a piece of wood Lying across the mosque and leaned on it in such a way as if he was angry. Then he put his right hand over the left and clasped his hands by interlacing his fingers and then put his J right cheek on the back of his left hand. The people who were in haste left the mosque through its gates. They wondered whether the prayer was reduced. And amongst them were Abu Bakr and `Umar but they hesitated to ask the Prophet. A long-handed man called Dhul- Yadain asked the Prophet, 'O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Have you forgotten or has the prayer been reduced?' The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, 'I have neither forgotten nor has the prayer been reduced' The Prophet (ﷺ) added, 'Is what Dhul Yadain has said true?' They (the people) said, 'Yes, it is true.' The Prophet (ﷺ) stood up again and led the prayer, completing the remaining prayer, forgotten by him, and performed Taslim, and then said, 'Allahu Akbar.' And then he did a prostration as he used to prostrate or longer than that. He then raised his head saying, 'Allahu Akbar; he then again said, 'Allahu Akbar', and prostrated as he used to prostrate or longer than that. Then he raised his head and said, 'Allahu Akbar.' " (The subnarrator added, "I think that they asked (Ibn Seereen) whether the Prophet (ﷺ) completed the prayer with Taslim. He replied, "I heard that `Imran bin Husain had said, 'Then he (the Prophet) did Taslim.")

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:482

Abu Bakr & Umar or their daughters often emerge in these sort of ahadith. 

I find it hard to believe that Umar who was vociferously critical of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) at Hudaibiya, because he really, really, really wanted to do hajj, would not speak up at missing 2 rakats because the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was angry.

What are the chances that the this episode happened with a caliph with known anger issues and was somehow attributed to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) by Kitty-Daddy aka Abu Hurairah? :)

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2 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

However, quran is all they have so that's all they discuss. We have a fuller Islam because of the AhlulBayt so our dynamics are different

This is quite a weak explanation.  If we indeed spent time discussing the Quran and the teachings of the Ahlulbayt I would have agreed, but unfortunately I think most of us are not knowledgeable about either. 

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24 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

This is quite a weak explanation.  If we indeed spent time discussing the Quran and the teachings of the Ahlulbayt I would have agreed, but unfortunately I think most of us are not knowledgeable about either. 

well then I truly dont know how you spend your time.

Even the most learned marajae will tell you that they have more to learn about the Quran and the AhlulBayt.

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38 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

well then I truly dont know how you spend your time.

Even the most learned marajae will tell you that they have more to learn about the Quran and the AhlulBayt.

Ok if you're saying the general understanding of the Quran and the teachings of the Aimmah (عليه السلام) is at a good level across the community and is being given the priority that it needs, then we will simply have to agree to disagree.  

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Ok if you're saying the general understanding of the Quran and the teachings of the Aimmah (عليه السلام) is at a good level across the community and is being given the priority that it needs, then we will simply have to agree to disagree.  

I am not discussing 'good' levels of understanding at all. I am just saying that we are tied to Quran more than what people give us credit for. 

Could all of us do more? Absolutely But even the most learned scholars who will tell you that the more they learn, the more they realize they have to learn. The levels of understanding differs by country and region.

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