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Struggling to accept some beliefs of Shi’a Islam

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Guest Looking for Truth

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Guest Looking for Truth

Salam Alaikum,

I’m another Sunni to Shi’a revert who has been struggling seeking the truth. I can’t accept some of the stuff that first two did to the Ahlulbayt AS, regarding Uthman I don’t know to much about him so I can’t comment (although I do believe Imam Ali was fundamental for the reason he got killed according to history). 
 

Anyways as an ex-Sunni to Shi’a revert I sincerely believe that Imam Ali was the rightful successor based on merit, whether he was divinely chosen by God as a the God appointed successor to me is disputable, I take a more zaydi stance on this matter. 
 

I do not however accept that they had full infallibility as some claims, because in the Qur’an we can see that God had to guide the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) a few times, showing that personal mistakes were possible (not mistakes in delivering the divine message), for example Surah 80 1-6 I’m sorry but the terminology does make more sense towards the Prophets. There are other surahs in the Qur’an that I can bring up, this brings infallibility to a doubt, the idea of being totally sinless/mistake free doesn’t sit well with me.

The second issue I have with Shi’a Islam is that a lot of it is too focused on the teachings of the Ahlulbayt, rather then the Qur’an. Yes I know hadith e thaqalyne, however the Ahlulbayt being the teachers of the Qur’an surely means we follow the Qur’an more then the Ahlulbayt no?  I know this will upset some of you, but a lot of Sunnis talk about the lack of knowledge Shi’as have of the Qur’an, not the ones in this forum maybe but in really life.


I have an issue with Shi’as saying Ya Ali and Ya Ali Madad a lot, I understand the whole intercession argument but at times for me it get a bit too extreme and borders on shirk unfortunately, because constantly putting emphasis on something starts changing the way you view things.

Cultural practices like tatbir, mud bathing etc have all been introduced. Objectively if we look at this remembrance of Imam Hussain AS and his sacrifice is fine, but why do some like cut yourself (mutiliating your body in the process), mud bathing and other traditions, why not recite Poetry like the Zaydis do?

Another thing I struggle with Shi’a Islam is the idea of sending La’nah on some of the Prophets companions. Yes I am aware of what they did, but if you look from the Sunni side of things they also expanded Islam and gave the idea of Islam to many many people, infact I probably wouldn’t be a Muslim if it wasn’t for there conquests into my near lands honest truth. I also don’t think there sins are deserving of hell (unless you can convience me that the Wilayat of Ali was divinely chosen). For all I know I could actually be participating in sending Lan’ah on real believers who made mistakes.

 

Now there’s also the issue of Zurara. Zurara narrated 2/3 of hadiths but we have an Imam (Jafar al Sadiq as) publically cursing him, do you know what it means to be cursed by an imam? And I haven’t seen any convincing proof disputing this, even if it was taqiyya.

I know this post might trigger a few people, but I’m just looking for the truth. I’m between a rock and a hard place, I just want a religion where I can worship God and be at peace with both Sunnis and Shias but I seem to have dug myself a rabbit hole which I can’t ignore.

 

Honestly I actually believe some beliefs in Sunni Islam are very questionable as well but that’s for another time

 

my stance might be closer to zaydi at the moment / I’m becoming a little Quranist or at least Quran > Then Non contradicting hadith 

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Guest Looking for Truth
28 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Look into Zaidi Shia I think alot of your questions would get answered.

 

Brother there’s not many resources out there. Could you help me out? Maybe a bit about your background?

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4 hours ago, Guest Looking for Truth said:

Imam Ali was the rightful successor based on merit, whether he was divinely chosen by God as a the God appointed successor to me is disputable

Allah says in the Holy Quran:

".....and for every people there is a guide"

(Surah Ar-Rad ayat 7)

Therefore,There is always a divinely appointed guide,Who at the time was Imam ali.

4 hours ago, Guest Looking for Truth said:

 

I do not however accept that they had full infallibility as some claims, because in the Qur’an we can see that God had to guide the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) a few times, showing that personal mistakes were possible (not mistakes in delivering the divine message), for example Surah 80 1-6 I’m sorry but the terminology does make more sense towards the Prophets. There are other surahs in the Qur’an that I can bring up, this brings infallibility to a doubt, the idea of being totally sinless/mistake free doesn’t sit well with me.

Many shias such as 'Sayyed Murtaza' do not believe that the verses(1-6 of Surah Abasa) were revealed about the Prophet,and there are many verses about his infallibility which contradicts these verses 

For example, God say is his Book:

"Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred,Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination."

(Surah An-Najm Ayat 1-2)

And Allah says:

"Allah intends to remove from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you with [extensive] purification"

(Surah Al-Ahzab Ayat 33)

And many other.

Hassanain Rajabali explains it was better than I ever can.

5 hours ago, Guest Looking for Truth said:

The second issue I have with Shi’a Islam is that a lot of it is too focused on the teachings of the Ahlulbayt, rather then the Qur’an. Yes I know hadith e thaqalyne, however the Ahlulbayt being the teachers of the Qur’an surely means we follow the Qur’an more then the Ahlulbayt no?  I know this will upset some of you, but a lot of Sunnis talk about the lack of knowledge Shi’as have of the Qur’an, not the ones in this forum maybe but in really life.

Sadly it's true that shias do have more inclination towards ahlebayt compared to the Holy Quran,There's barely any tafsirs translated into english.

I'm really sorry that you feel this way after joining the Shia community.If God wills, As time changes, Shias(including me)  too will change.

5 hours ago, Guest Looking for Truth said:


I have an issue with Shi’as saying Ya Ali and Ya Ali Madad a lot, I understand the whole intercession argument but at times for me it get a bit too extreme and borders on shirk unfortunately, because constantly putting emphasis on something starts changing the way you view things.

Cultural practices like tatbir, mud bathing etc have all been introduced. Objectively if we look at this remembrance of Imam Hussain AS and his sacrifice is fine, but why do some like cut yourself (mutiliating your body in the process), mud bathing and other traditions, why not recite Poetry like the Zaydis do?

Truly some Shias need to know the line between tawassul and shirk,Here in Pakistan it's very common for scholars to say sentences such as " If god wanted to come on earth he would be like Ali" such things always trigger me, once I was in karbala and there was this famous poet from pakistan and he said "It wasn't Hussain who was martyred and had his head of spears,it was God who was on the spears and it was God who was killed" this triggered me so much that I went and talked to the guy after the majlis and We started talking all of a sudden while we were taking a crowd gathered and people came thinking that a fight happened and he just disappeared the funny thing is that he was part of our caravan and he became a good friend of my dad and said to him "your son is good other than the fact he called me a mushrik" lol anyways coming to acts such as tatbir etc. These have been prohibited by most marjas and majalis are held at many places for remembering imam Hussain.

 

5 hours ago, Guest Looking for Truth said:

Another thing I struggle with Shi’a Islam is the idea of sending La’nah on some of the Prophets companions. Yes I am aware of what they did, but if you look from the Sunni side of things they also expanded Islam and gave the idea of Islam to many many people, infact I probably wouldn’t be a Muslim if it wasn’t for there conquests into my near lands honest truth. I also don’t think there sins are deserving of hell (unless you can convience me that the Wilayat of Ali was divinely chosen). For all I know I could actually be participating in sending Lan’ah on real believers who made mistakes.

 

Lanah should never be done infront of other sects. Bad language is not allowed, but lanah is given by God even in the Quran 

Allah says:

"Those -  their recompense will be that upon them is the curse(lanah) of Allah and the angels and the people, all together"

(Surah Aal-e-Imran verse 87)

As for if they(Umar,Abubakr etc) are in Hell or not,

Here is a verse:

Indeed, those who abuse(annoy) Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this world and the Hereafter and prepared for them a humiliating punishment.

(Surah Al-Ahzab ayat 57) 

As for Abu bakr and Umar, would stealing Fadak not annoy the prophet, does threatening to burn the door of the  daughter of the Prophet not the same as abusing the Prophet(according to the hadith of the Prophet the Fatima is a part of Prophet)

Umar and Uthman bought many biddahs into islam and the sunni hadith speaks for themselves.

Whomever Allah guides, no one can lead him astray. Whomever Allah sends astray, no one can guide him. The truest word is the Book of Allah and the best guidance is the guidance of Muhammad. The most evil matters are those that are newly invented, for every newly invented matter is an innovation. Every innovation is misguidance, and every misguidance is in the Hellfire.

Source: Sunan al-Nasā’ī 1578

Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Al-Albani

Therefore anyone who introduces a biddah is supposed to go to hell.

6 hours ago, Guest Looking for Truth said:

Now there’s also the issue of Zurara. Zurara narrated 2/3 of hadiths but we have an Imam (Jafar al Sadiq as) publically cursing him, do you know what it means to be cursed by an imam? And I haven’t seen any convincing proof disputing this, even if it was taqiyya

I personally know nothing about rijal,hope this helps.

 

6 hours ago, Guest Looking for Truth said:

I know this post might trigger a few people, but I’m just looking for the truth. I’m between a rock and a hard place, I just want a religion where I can worship God and be at peace with both Sunnis and Shias but I seem to have dug myself a rabbit hole which I can’t ignore.

No need to worry,I have been in your place.

May God bless you for trying to find the truth and embracing it,may Allah the Almighty guide us all,

Wassalam.

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Alaikum Salam.

For the sake of discussion, all of us can discuss any issue.  May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guides the truth seekers.

 

5 hours ago, Guest Looking for Truth said:

Salam Alaikum,

I do not however accept that they had full infallibility as some claims, because in the Qur’an we can see that God had to guide the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) a few times, showing that personal mistakes were possible (not mistakes in delivering the divine message), for example Surah 80 1-6 I’m sorry but the terminology does make more sense towards the Prophets. There are other surahs in the Qur’an that I can bring up, this brings infallibility to a doubt, the idea of being totally sinless/mistake free doesn’t sit well with me.

[Shakir 80:1] He frowned and turned (his) back,
[Shakir 80:2] Because there came to him the blind man.
[Shakir 80:3] And what would make you know that he would purify himself,

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) was telling the Prophet (عليه السلام) that a third person has frowned and turned his back...

The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was not the one who frowned.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) was constantly protecting and guiding the Prophet.  Protection is infallibility.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) may guide a person, but He may not protect.

5 hours ago, Guest Looking for Truth said:

The second issue I have with Shi’a Islam is that a lot of it is too focused on the teachings of the Ahlulbayt, rather then the Qur’an. Yes I know hadith e thaqalyne, however the Ahlulbayt being the teachers of the Qur’an surely means we follow the Qur’an more then the Ahlulbayt no?  I know this will upset some of you, but a lot of Sunnis talk about the lack of knowledge Shi’as have of the Qur’an, not the ones in this forum maybe but in really life.

Two weighty things of equal weight (both are needed).  You study the Quran (words of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)), it will bring you closer to Ahlulbayts, and you put emphasis on Ahlulbayt, they will bring you to Qur'an (words of Allahb (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)).  Both in togetherness will bring you to the Path of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (siratul mustaqeem).  It has to be both in equal weight of emphasize.  Shias put equal weight of emphasis.  How do you draw the line in any Shia that he/she emphasis is not equal, only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows. 

6 hours ago, Guest Looking for Truth said:

Anyways as an ex-Sunni to Shi’a revert I sincerely believe that Imam Ali was the rightful successor based on merit, whether he was divinely chosen by God as a the God appointed successor to me is disputable, I take a more zaydi stance on this matter. 
 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has chosen our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or other Prophets based on merit.  Imamate must also be based on merits. During Khandaq, the performance of of Ali (عليه السلام) is more than entire muslims. Ali (عليه السلام) was regarded as Aarun to Moses (عليه السلام), except there was not Prophethood after Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

The question is, who set the merit? Ourselves or Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  See what the Quran says and analyze whether Ali fits in that criteria.  Example surah 33, ayat 33 or 

"Only Allah is your wali and His Apostle and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor rate while they bow”. (5:55)

6 hours ago, Guest Looking for Truth said:

Another thing I struggle with Shi’a Islam is the idea of sending La’nah on some of the Prophets companions. Yes I am aware of what they did, but if you look from the Sunni side of things they also expanded Islam and gave the idea of Islam to many many people, infact I probably wouldn’t be a Muslim if it wasn’t for there conquests into my near lands honest truth. I also don’t think there sins are deserving of hell (unless you can convience me that the Wilayat of Ali was divinely chosen). For all I know I could actually be participating in sending Lan’ah on real believers who made mistakes.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophets and Mukminin send la'nah on all type actions that that were performed willingly, openly and hypocritically go against what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has made muslims not to cross.  Killing a prophet is one of them.

It doesn't  matter the name, rank, or type of person who went against Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  If he or she falls in that category, then the curse belongs to that person.  Killings of Imam Ali, Imam Hassan, Imam Hussain...fit in that category.  Fighting Imam Ali in Siffin and Jamal where thousands of muslims got killed fit in that category.

I am a muslim, live in Far East and Islam came to us not through conquest... it is a proof that Islam comes to the world through its' beautiful message of Peace.

Islam comes on to the US...it that through conquest?

If Islam has no message of peace for the whole world, not body will accept it!

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13 hours ago, Guest Looking for Truth said:

Salam Alaikum,

I’m another Sunni to Shi’a revert who has been struggling seeking the truth. I can’t accept some of the stuff that first two did to the Ahlulbayt AS, regarding Uthman I don’t know to much about him so I can’t comment (although I do believe Imam Ali was fundamental for the reason he got killed according to history). 

Walaykum as Salam, 

Uthman was killed by other Sahaba for widespread corruption and nepotism that thrived under his usurpation. Logically, that’s more than enough not to treat him as a “rightly guided” person, and certainly not a role model. If you want to learn more on that in detail, I advice you to read al-'Adala al-ijtima'Tyya ft l -Islam (Social Justice in Islam) by... Sayyid Qutb. 

Quote

I do not however accept that they had full infallibility as some claims, because in the Qur’an we can see that God had to guide the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) a few times, showing that personal mistakes were possible (not mistakes in delivering the divine message), for example Surah 80 1-6 I’m sorry but the terminology does make more sense towards the Prophets. There are othersurahs in the Qur’an that I can bring up, this bringsinfallibility to a doubt, the idea of being totallysinless/mistake free doesn’t sit well with me.

Quote

The second issue I have with Shi’a Islam is that a lot of it is too focused on the teachings of the Ahlulbayt, rather then the Qur’an. Yes I know hadith e thaqalyne, however the Ahlulbayt being the teachers of the Qur’an surely means we follow the Qur’an more then the Ahlulbayt no?  I know this will upset some of you, but a lot of Sunnis talk about the lack of knowledge Shi’as have of the Qur’an, not the ones in this forum maybe but in really life.

Holy Quran is with the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), and Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) is with the Holy Quran. While Sunnis acquire knowledge, A’immah (عليه السلام) possesses it. While Sunnis can try to understand zahir, A’immah (عليه السلام) knows batin. Sunnis think they possess knowledge of the Holy Quran, while knowledge of it is only with and through wilayah of A’immah (عليه السلام). 

Quote

I have an issue with Shi’as saying Ya Ali and Ya Ali Madad a lot, I understand the whole intercession argument but at times for me it get a bit too extreme and borders on shirk unfortunately, because constantly putting emphasis on something starts changing the way you view things.

While we shout Ya Ali (عليه السلام), others in al-Sham on the eve of his assassination asked if Imam (عليه السلام) even prayed. Such is distinction between the followers of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), and those who persecuted them.

Quote

Cultural practices like tatbir, mud bathing etc have all been introduced. Objectively if we look at this remembrance of Imam Hussain AS and his sacrifice is fine, but why do some like cut yourself (mutiliating your body in the process), mud bathing and other traditions, why not recite Poetry like the Zaydis do?

Azadari rituals are not cultural but religious. Every person mourns the way they feel like it’s the most appropriate way of mourning, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows what’s in individual hearts. Minarets were introduced, prayer rugs, Tarawih “prayers” etc. Zaydis are theologically wrong, as was discussed on this forum previously. We do not follow their customs and practices. 

Quote

Another thing I struggle with Shi’a Islam is the idea of sending La’nah on some of the Prophets companions. Yes I am aware of what they did, but if you look from the Sunni side of things they also expanded Islam and gave the idea of Islam to many many people, infact I probably wouldn’t be a Muslim if it wasn’t for there conquests into my near lands honest truth. I also don’t think there sins are deserving of hell (unless you can convience me that the Wilayat of Ali was divinely chosen). For all I know I could actually be participating in sending Lan’ah on real believers who made mistakes.

You should search this forum on that, as it was also discussed previously. We do not care for the “Sunni perspective”, for they follow the worst of the worst as long as those had and have power. We do not follow and judge individuals based on the amount of real and perceived power that they wield(ed) or they associations, but on their merits, behaviours, actions, thoughts. Al-Mughira was a Sahabi who under Mu’awiya, as a governor of Kufa, was an epitome of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) nemesis, a true nasibi. One of many opportunists among the Prophetic  Companions. Why wouldn’t we send lan’ah on him and his likes? The man who is said to marry and divorce 1,000 times in his lifetime. Sunni Al-Baladhuri mentions in his Genealogies of the Nobles (Arabic: أنساب الأشراف‎; Ansab al-Ashraf), that Mughira ibn Shu'ba used to say, "Allah, curse so-and-so (meaning 'Ali) for he disobeyed what is in Your Book and abandoned the sunnah of Your Prophet, divided unity, shed blood and was slain as an oppressor." Mashallah, and everybody is together in paradise.. 

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Walaikum as salam dear brother,

You have raised many points. I will try and address some of them inshaAllah.

-Your first question was about the designation of Ali (عليه السلام) as the prophet's rightful successor. I would say that if one has accepted that the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) named Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his rightful successor (on more than one occasion) then this in itself is a strong proof that this was a divine appointment which the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) transmitted as a messenger of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Refer to the opening verses of Surah al Najm.

-Regarding infallibility, again Surah al Najm is a good reference. The extent and definition of infallibility is a subject of discussion among scholars. While some contemporary scholars extend it to include being free or all errors and mistakes even if they aren't related to guidance and religious affairs, others (most famously Sheikh al Suduq) had a view which is closer to what you have described. I think as a minimum all shia accept that the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام) were free from sin and misguidance. 

-Quran: the importance of the quran is clear from our narrations and teachings. What you have mentioned might be an issue among some people and some circles but this is not related to the beliefs and teachings of Shiism. 

-Intercession: I agree with you that supplicating to other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not an act that has a religious basis and I also don't think that this is what is meant by tawassul. I have not found this act in the teachings and narrations of shiism and it seems to be a trend rather than a part of shi'i belief. 

-Cultural practices: these practices differ from person to person and community to community. I dont see this as a twelver vs zaidi issue.

-La'nah: opposition to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) , his messenger and the aimmah is something that we condemn regardless of who the perpetrator is. The belief itself is bara'ah, or disassociation, rather than la'nah itself. 

-Regarding Zurarah someone has already shared an article above. Also there is an interesting online presentation this weekend that might cover this:

https://www.mizaninstitute.org/legacy

 

 

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On 6/17/2020 at 6:26 AM, Guest Looking for Truth said:

I do not however accept that they had full infallibility as some claims, because in the Qur’an we can see that God had to guide the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) a few times, showing that personal mistakes were possible (not mistakes in delivering the divine message), for example Surah 80 1-6 I’m sorry but the terminology does make more sense towards the Prophets. There are other surahs in the Qur’an that I can bring up, this brings infallibility to a doubt, the idea of being totally sinless/mistake free doesn’t sit well with me.

The second issue I have with Shi’a Islam is that a lot of it is too focused on the teachings of the Ahlulbayt, rather then the Qur’an. Yes I know hadith e thaqalyne, however the Ahlulbayt being the teachers of the Qur’an surely means we follow the Qur’an more then the Ahlulbayt no?  I know this will upset some of you, but a lot of Sunnis talk about the lack of knowledge Shi’as have of the Qur’an, not the ones in this forum maybe but in really life.

Sure Qur'an is central but Ahlulbayt ARE the knowledge of the Qur'an, and the inheritors of the Sunnah in it's outward and inner forms. They are inseparable from Muhammad and Muhammad is inseparable from the Qur'an. They are part of the cosmic narratives in the Qur'an itself, rejecting their importance is asinine. Qur'an alone will only get you surface understanding of the Qur'an, it doesn't crack the shell. But in my own experience, growing a firm relation with the Qur'an itself is the best thing for any convert, it makes approaching Hadith, Seerah, Sunnah etc all the more easier to intellectually and spiritually process. With the Ahlulbayt the Qur'an overflows. The initiatic aspect of spirituality is fundamental and dogmatism will never achieve such attainments. 

Sunnism like Quran-alone, are stuck with the Zahir but lack any Batin. 

On 6/17/2020 at 6:26 AM, Guest Looking for Truth said:

I have an issue with Shi’as saying Ya Ali and Ya Ali Madad a lot, I understand the whole intercession argument but at times for me it get a bit too extreme and borders on shirk unfortunately, because constantly putting emphasis on something starts changing the way you view things.

It borders on shirk if someone starts worshiping Ali (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and associating him with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

But someone would only do that if they didn't know why they were saying Ya Ali and it's meaning and importance. 

Especially in the 20th/21st century, we're going to see a lot of eXoteric, mainstream laymen Shi'i who have no clue about the Deen. It's their problem though. People who worship Ali are as bad as Sunnis and Salafis. 

People who understand the significance of Ali in the Batin, in the deeper level, and profess Ya Ali with the knowledge of why they're saying it and what they're conveying through saying it - those are inheritors of 'ilm.

On 6/17/2020 at 6:26 AM, Guest Looking for Truth said:

Cultural practices like tatbir, mud bathing etc have all been introduced. Objectively if we look at this remembrance of Imam Hussain AS and his sacrifice is fine, but why do some like cut yourself (mutiliating your body in the process), mud bathing and other traditions, why not recite Poetry like the Zaydis do?

It's Haram and it's Bidah. No true Mu'min of the Ahulbayt would do such a thing. 

Plus there is literally a site with Shi'i fatwas against it: http://tatbir.org/

 

 

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On 6/17/2020 at 12:17 AM, Guest Looking for Truth said:

Brother there’s not many resources out there. Could you help me out? Maybe a bit about your background?

https://m.facebook.com/groups/159295497604813?ref=group_browse&notif_t=group_post_approved

Alot of material available here. Have a look.

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On 6/16/2020 at 11:26 PM, Guest Looking for Truth said:

The second issue I have with Shi’a Islam is that a lot of it is too focused on the teachings of the Ahlulbayt, rather then the Qur’an. Yes I know hadith e thaqalyne, however the Ahlulbayt being the teachers of the Qur’an surely means we follow the Qur’an more then the Ahlulbayt no?  I know this will upset some of you, but a lot of Sunnis talk about the lack of knowledge Shi’as have of the Qur’an, not the ones in this forum maybe but in really life.

Ahlebait (عليه السلام) guides towards Quran and Quran Guides towards Ahlebait (عليه السلام).

Only Allah knows Interpretation of verses of Quran. So only possible way to understand Quran is to take interpretation from Allah, which is only possible if taken through divinly appointed being.

On 6/16/2020 at 11:26 PM, Guest Looking for Truth said:

(unless you can convience me that the Wilayat of Ali was divinely chosen).

Quran 24:55

Allah has promised those who have believed among you and done righteous deeds that He will surely grant them caliphate upon the earth just as He granted it to those before them 55.

Before us, all the Prophets were caliphs who were choosen by Allah, were Masoom and guided by command of Allah, and were choosen from among Brothers, Descendants and Fathers (Ahlebait) of Prophets (Surah Anaam ayah 83-87)

Now concept has been delivered by Book of Allah. Now take hadith that is inline with Quran. If sahih Bukhari says that someones says that Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) made no one his caliph, then what about above verse of Quran? If you want to accept contradictory content, then its up to you.

And another hadith with Isnad e Hasan in Kitab Us Sunnab hadith 1188

Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to Ali: You are to me in same Position as Harun was to Moses, except that you are not a Prophet and you are caliph for every believer after me.

And then hadith of 12 successors.

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi
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On 6/17/2020 at 9:33 PM, Mahdavist said:

-Regarding infallibility, again Surah al Najm is a good reference. The extent and definition of infallibility is a subject of discussion among scholars. While some contemporary scholars extend it to include being free or all errors and mistakes even if they aren't related to guidance and religious affairs, others (most famously Sheikh al Suduq) had a view which is closer to what you have described. I think as a minimum all shia accept that the ma'soomeen (عليه السلام) were free from sin and misguidance.

Do you mean, regarding infallibility, Sheikh al-Saduq believed that personal mistakes were possible by Prophet (SAWW) (not mistakes in delivering the divine message)?

What were opinion of other classical shia scholars on this?

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1 hour ago, The Alchemist said:

Do you mean, regarding infallibility, Sheikh al-Saduq believed that personal mistakes were possible by Prophet (SAWW) (not mistakes in delivering the divine message)?

What were opinion of other classical shia scholars on this?

Yes brother that is what I meant.

There isn't an ijma on this, even among classical scholars. Some accept this idea while others reject it. 

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28 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Yes brother that is what I meant.

There isn't an ijma on this, even among classical scholars. Some accept this idea while others reject it. 

Where does he say so? I mean reference?

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1 hour ago, Mahdavist said:

Yes brother that is what I meant.

The view of Sheikh al-Sadooq a.r was related to سهو. Following are his words:

-------------------------------------

وقال الصدوق رحمه الله في الفقيه : إن الغلاة والمفوضة لعنهم الله ينكرون سهو النبي صلى الله عليه وآله ويقولون : لو جاز أن يسهو صلى الله عليه وآله في الصلاة جاز أن يسهو في التبليغ لان الصلاة عليه فريضة كما أن التبليغ عليه فريضة ، وهذا لا يلزمنا ، وذلك لان جميع الاحوال المشتركة يقع على النبى صلى الله عليه وآله فيها ما يقع على غيره ، وهو متعبد بالصلاة كغيره ممن ليس بنبي ، فالحالة التي اختص بها هي النبوة ، والتبليغ من شرائطها ، ولا يجوز أن يقع عليه في التبليغ ما يقع في الصلاة ، لانها عبادة مخصوصة ، والصلاة عبادة مشتركة ، وبها يثبت له العبودية ، وبإثبات النوم له عن خدمة ربه عزوجل من غير إرادة له وقصد منه إليه نفي الربوبية عنه ، لان الذي لا تأخذه سنة ولا نوم هو الله الحي القيوم ، وليس سهو النبي صلى الله عليه وآله كسهونا ، لان سهوه من الله عزوجل وإنما أسهاه ليعلم أنه بشر مخلوق فلا يتخذ ربا معبودا دونه ، وليعلم الناس بسهوه حكم السهو متى سهوا ، وسهونا من الشيطان وليس للشيطان على النبي صلى الله عليه وآله والائمة عليهم السلام سلطان ، إنما سلطانه على الذين يتولونه والذينهم به مشركون ، وعلى من تبعه من الغاوين ، ويقول الدافعون لسهو النبي : إنه لم يكن في الصحابة من يقال له : ذواليدين ، وإنه لا أصل للرجل ولا للخبر ، وكذبوا ، لان الرجل معروف وهو أبومحمد عمير بن عبد عمر المعروف بذي اليدين ، فقد نقل عنه المخالف والموافق ، وقد أخرجت عنه أخبارا في كتاب وصف قتال القاسطين بصفين ، وكان شيخنا محمد بن الحسن ابن أحمد بن الوليد يقول : أول درجة من الغلو نفي السهو عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله ، ولو جاز أن يرد الاخبار الواردة في هذا المعنى لجاز أن يرد جميع الاخبار ، وفي ردها إبطال الدين والشريعة ، وأنا أحتسب الاجر في تصنيف كتاب منفرد في إثبات سهو النبي صلى الله عليه وآله والرد على منكريه إن شاء الله

And al-Saduq - may Allah have mercy on him - said in al-Faqih:

The Ghulat and the Mufawwidha - may Allah curse them - deny the (occurence of) Sahw to the prophet, and they say: if it is permitted for the prophet to forget in the Salat - it will also be allowed for him to forget in the Tabligh [propagation of the religion], because, just as the Salat is obligatory upon him so is the Tabligh.

But this does not necessarily follow, because all the aspects that affect the human condition also affect the prophet, and he is ordered to make Salat like any other individual who is not a prophet, rather the only state that is specific/unique to him is the prophethood, and Tabligh is one of its (i.e. prophethood's) requirements, therefore, it is not allowed to occur to him in the Tabligh what occurs to him in the Salat, because it (i.e. Tabligh) is an exceptional Ibadah (i.e. required of him alone), and the Salat is a communal Ibadah (i.e. in which everyone partakes), and it is by his performance of it (i.e. the Salat) that his servitude is expressed, and by the occurence of sleep to him in the service of his lord without his will or conscious decision there is a further proof in the negation of his divinity. For the only one whom slumber does not overtake, nor sleep, is Allah the everlasting, the eternal.

Furthermore, the Sahw of the prophet is not similar to our Sahw, for his Sahw is caused by Allah, and He makes him forget so that it can be known that he is a created being, so that he cannot be taken up as a partner to Him, and so that the people can know by him forgetting - the legal rules that are in effect when they themselves will forget, on the other hand, our Sahw is caused by the Shaytan, while the Shaytan has no authority over the prophet and the Aimmah, verily, his authority extends only to those who consider him a guardian and those from the deviated who follow his path.

Those who argue against the Sahw of the prophet further say: there is no one from the Sahaba who was called Dhu al-Yadayn, and there is no historical kernel to this man nor for the event. But they have lied, for the man is known, and he is Abu Muhammad Umayr bin Abd Umar - popularly called - Dhu al-Yadayn. And both the opponent and the proponent have narrated from him, I myself have narrated on his authority reports that describe the killing of the rebels in Siffin.

And our Shaykh Muhammad bin al-Hasan bin Ahmad bin al-Walid used to say: the first degree/stage of Ghulu is denying the Sahw of the prophet, and if it was allowed to repel the Akhbar with this purport, then there would be no impediment to repel any and all the Akhbar, and that would cause abolishing the Diin and the Shariah, and I hope for reward in authoring an independent tract in proving the Sahw of the prophet, and answering those who oppose the Sahw, if Allah wills.

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1149_الفقيه-ج-١/الصفحة_0?pageno=359
-------------------------------------

As you can see, our respected Sheikh was basing his argument on the following verses of Al-Aa'la:

سَنُقْرِئُكَ فَلَا تَنْسَىٰ إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ اللَّهُ

87:6-7)

I don't see it is a sort of contradiction in the Shia concept of infallibility. Because forgetting something on divine command means complete obediance. If his forgetting was forced onto him by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who is القادر، even then it is not causing any problem to the infallibility. 

There are very few scholars among Shias who have taken very strict stance on infallibility of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams and have declared those who don't believe in their infallibility as kafirs. Sheikh Sadooq a.r was from among those scholars.

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As Salamu Alaykum friend,

 

Honestly as someone who has grown up as Twelver Shia I have had my many doubts etc., through the years and even now. Similar to you, because I fully accept Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as the 1st Imam (Including the 11 Imams (عليه السلام) after him) I find it hard to even want to lean towards Ahlul Sunnah due to our historical allegiances. 

However the one thing I've come to realise is that, although there may be some stuff in the Twelver Aqeedah that I always seem to question, the very basic tenet of "The Quran and the Ahlulbayt (AS)" is what I truly believe in. It is our people throughout the generations who have lost our footing so to speak. 

The lack of focus on the Quran in our communities is something I blame on the people and not the Aqeedah. Any book of faith that I have been through has always emphasised the importance and  how holy the Quran is. I feel some of our people feel that they don't need to worry about it too much because the Imam of the Time (عليه السلام) has not appeared (A mindset I have seen amongst some of my fellow South Asian Shia). 

Regarding our slightly increased focus on the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). I feel that it comes as a reaction to the generational oppression of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) which resonates with the generational oppression of Shias. A need to remind the world who these people were and their importance in Islam, which was/is forgotten/ignored. That's just a theory though.

When it comes to Muharram processions I fully agree with you (it is also one of the main aspects of Shia Islam that always makes me question myself), however again I feel the people are responsible for letting it reach this point and the speakers you find in some communities who spout questionable material on the pulpits and encourage these actions to develop even further.

Apologies friend because I haven't really helped you with your questions, kind of just rambled on myself:censored:

Nontheless, I pray you will find your way regardless whatever it may be and that, InshaAllah, you will still be under la ilaha illallah muhammadur rasulullah 

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3 hours ago, The Alchemist said:

Where does he say so? I mean reference?

Salam

Quote

Sahw al-Nabi

 

Sahw al-Nabī (Arabic: سَهْو النبي) or oversights of the Prophet is a debate over the possibility of inadvertent mistakes and forgetfulness by the Prophet (s) as well as other Infallibles. This is an issue in theology. The majority of Shiite scholars reject such a possibility, although some of them, such as al-Shaykh al-Saduq and his teacher, Ibn Walid, believe in the possibility of oversights of the Prophet (s). That is, while they acknowledge that the Prophet (s) is infallible with respect to sins and his duties as a prophet, he might make inadvertent mistakes or exhibit forgetfulness in other aspects of his life.

Proponents of the possibility of "sahw al-Nabi" have appealed to hadiths implying that the Prophet (s) made inadvertent mistakes when saying his prayers. However, opponents believe that inadvertent mistakes or oversights are not compatible with the position of prophethood and dismiss those hadiths as unreliable.

 

Quote

Reasons and Evidence of Proponents

Al-Shaykh al-Saduq appealed to hadiths pointing to the Prophet's oversights in his prayers.[15] Such hadiths are cited in Sunni and Shiite sources of hadiths.[16] According to Ja'far Subhani, the number of such hadiths in Shiite sources is at most twelve.[17] One such hadith is the one quoted by al-Kulayni in his al-Kafi from Imam al-Sadiq (a). According to this hadith, one day the Prophet (s) mistakenly recited salam in the second rak'a of his noon prayer. When Muslims reminded him that it was the second rak'a, he completed the rest of his prayer and then performed two sadjas of sahw.[18]

 

Quote

Reasons and Evidence of Opponents

 

According to al-Shaykh al-Mufid, hadiths appealed to in favor of the possibility of oversights of the Prophet (s) count as al-Khabar al-Wahid, and are not, therefore, reliable for the establishment of religious beliefs.[24] He has also objected to the reliability of these hadiths on the ground that their texts are radically different.[25]

In his Kashf al-murad, al-Allama al-Hilli says, "if Sahw al-Nabi was possible, then mistakes could find their way to [tasks of] his prophethood as well."[26] In his jurisprudential book, Muntaha l-matlab, al-Allama al-Hilli argues that hadiths concerning Sahw al-Nabi should be rejected because Sahw al-Nabi is rationally impossible.[27] In his book, al-Dhikra, al-Shahid al-Awwal has challenged hadiths of Sahw al-Nabi along the same lines.[28]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Sahw_al-Nabi

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37 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

According to al-Shaykh al-Mufid, hadiths appealed to in favor of the possibility of oversights of the Prophet (s) count as al-Khabar al-Wahid, and are not, therefore, reliable for the establishment of religious beliefs.[24] He has also objected to the reliability of these hadiths on the ground that their texts are radically different.[25

Salamun Alaikum Brother!!

I am in a position where I have made my self free from this debate & this matter. 

What I want to inquire about, since you are in Iran and have access to mujtahedeen, is that how can we deny the "possibility" that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can forget something while the verses of chapter 87:6-7 are mentioning the same? Can you ask this question from any marj'a's office? 

According to our belief, Imams are not "masloob" means God has not taken away from them the ability to sin & ability to disobey His commands. It is the luft of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His bestowed knowledge that causes these blessed personalities to abstain by their own will, from doing anything bad, even from doing the tarak al-awla and disobeying God.

And mind that I am only talking about the "possibility". Not that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget anything or not as mentioned in some ahadith.

I hope you will help me in this matter.

Wassalam!!

Edited by Cool
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Another way of looking at this matter is that since these personalities are the lights of divine manifestation, the manifestation of the One who neither forgets nor does He err, therefore these personalities are free from any sort of forgetfulness & errors. 

Even in that way too, we need to keep open the "possibility" that they have the "ability" to forget, if God wills so. And since these blessed personalities wills only that which God wills, therefore their alleged forgetfulness in any event would be considered as their complete submission to divine will. Because their forgetting anything without divine will would make them Zalim which they are not for sure.

Now whether Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ever willed to make them forget anything, I have no idea.

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23 minutes ago, Cool said:

Salamun Alaikum Brother!!

I am in a position where I have made my self free from this debate & this matter. 

What I want to inquire about, since you are in Iran and have access to mujtahedeen, is that how can we deny the "possibility" that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can forget something while the verses of chapter 87:6-7 are mentioning the same? Can you ask this question from any marj'a's office? 

According to our belief, Imams are not "masloob" means God has not taken away from them the ability to sin & ability to disobey His commands. It is the luft of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and His bestowed knowledge that causes these blessed personalities to abstain by their own will, from doing anything bad, even from doing the tarak al-awla and disobeying God.

And mind that I am only talking about the "possibility". Not that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget anything or not as mentioned in some ahadith.

I hope you will help me in this matter.

Wassalam!!

Aqa Mehdi pooya says following in the commentary:

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 87:6]

Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 2; Zumar: 23 and Dahr: 23 for the gradual revelation of the Quran.

As man makes gradual progress for going into light from darkness, so the Quran was recited by the Holy Prophet as and when commanded by Allah so that the people might remember each commandment and apply it in their day to day life and grow steadily in spiritual development.

La tansa implies divine protection from forgetfulness. While living among people, though the verses of the Quran were revealed to him only once, the Holy Prophet always remembered them in verbatim.

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

Any tradition which narrates that the Holy Prophet did not remember the verses of the Quran or some parts of the prayers must be treated as spurious in the light of this verse. Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 78; Mumin: 55, Muhammad: 15 and 19 and Fat-h: 2 to know the reasons for attributing ordinary human frailties to the Holy Prophet. If it was possible that he could forget any of his duties, the people would not have been commanded by Allah to follow and obey him. The Holy Prophet is protected from forgetting his duties.

It is said in verse 108 of Hud that those who will be blessed shall abide in paradise so long as the heavens and the earth survive except if Allah wills otherwise. Although Allah has the power to do what He wills but the exception mentioned may not be willed as His grace once willed will not be reversed in the life of hereafter. The exception in these verses is similar to the exception mentioned in the above noted verse.

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2 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

If it was possible that he could forget any of his duties, the people would not have been commanded by Allah to follow and obey him. The Holy Prophet is protected from forgetting his duties

Yes, I have seen this, thank you for bringing this here too. 

First of all, I again express clearly & loudly, that I am only inquiring about the "possibility" to forget whether in tableegh or in day to day affairs which are not related to tabligh. 

Whether performing the salah correctly without forgetting anything ever, was his duty? Or whether his duty was to teach the Muslims what to do incase they forget anything during their salah or made a mistake in salah? 

And whether God can make him forget anything is "possible" or not? 

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4 hours ago, Cool said:

Whether performing the salah correctly without forgetting anything ever, was his duty?

Lets consider for a while that this is the case. Why then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentioned the possibility by giving the exception الا ما شاء الله ? 

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59 minutes ago, Cool said:

And whether God can make him forget anything is "possible" or not? 

There is no doubt that God can make forget anyone anything. However, in case of Prophet or Imam, God wouldn't make them to forget anything in daily activities because this will make infallibility doubtful which is promised in ayat tatheer.

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As shias, we believe that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was a prophet from birth and at all times. He was not just a prophet when receiving wahi or administering prophethood tasks and a layman at other times but a prophet at all times. This is why we are told to follow his sunnah.

I have always found it perplexing that Sunnis align themselves to following the sunnah of the Prophet but then also limit it to "prophethood" tasks. We, as shias, follow the sunnah of the prophet on a full-time basis and not part-time.

The infallibility of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is brought into question only to protect the mistakes of the sahaba and no other reason. Otherwise we could and should discuss the following:

Muhammad the Prophet and Muhammad the layman are different roles. Prophet Muhammad's love and respect for Hz Khadijah is well known so I classify her as Umm ul Momineen. Muhammad the layman had other wives and several of them aggrieved him a lot so they shouldn't be considered umm ul momineen. If all his wives are Umm Ul Momineen, then he is a prophet at all times and hence free from 'sahw'.

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

As shias, we believe that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was a prophet from birth and at all times. He was not just a prophet when receiving wahi or administering prophethood tasks

Thank you brother for your comments and they are helpful indeed. What I was trying to sort out are two things:

1. God can make Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget anything if He wills so. 

I think every Shia would have no objection on the fact that God is able, He is القادر so yes this could happen if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will so.

2. Did God make him forget something in salah as mentioned in some sunni & shia ahadith? 

This is a matter which need a thorough scholarly investigation. And I have tried to do some investigation on my own. 

10 hours ago, Cool said:

Those who argue against the Sahw of the prophet further say: there is no one from the Sahaba who was called Dhu al-Yadayn, and there is no historical kernel to this man nor for the event. But they have lied, for the man is known, and he is Abu Muhammad Umayr bin Abd Umar - popularly called - Dhu al-Yadayn. And both the opponent and the proponent have narrated from him, I myself have narrated on his authority reports that describe the killing of the rebels in Siffin

The above part has been taken from the what Sheikh Sadooq said. The person "Dhul Yadayn" is the one who asked the key question from Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Lets first see the ahadith from Sunni books and I will highlight the Arabic text where this person asked the key question and my conclusion will be based on the answer given by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in the same ahadith:

صَلَّى بنَا رَسولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ إحْدَى صَلَاتَيِ العَشِيِّ - قَالَ ابنُ سِيرِينَ: سَمَّاهَا أبو هُرَيْرَةَ ولَكِنْ نَسِيتُ أنَا - قَالَ: فَصَلَّى بنَا رَكْعَتَيْنِ، ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ، فَقَامَ إلى خَشَبَةٍ مَعْرُوضَةٍ في المَسْجِدِ، فَاتَّكَأَ عَلَيْهَا كَأنَّهُ غَضْبَانُ، ووَضَعَ يَدَهُ اليُمْنَى علَى اليُسْرَى، وشَبَّكَ بيْنَ أصَابِعِهِ، ووَضَعَ خَدَّهُ الأيْمَنَ علَى ظَهْرِ كَفِّهِ اليُسْرَى، وخَرَجَتِ السَّرَعَانُ مِن أبْوَابِ المَسْجِدِ، فَقالوا: قَصُرَتِ الصَّلَاةُ؟ وفي القَوْمِ أبو بَكْرٍ وعُمَرُ، فَهَابَا أنْ يُكَلِّمَاهُ، وفي القَوْمِ رَجُلٌ في يَدَيْهِ طُولٌ، يُقَالُ له: ذُو اليَدَيْنِ، قَالَ: يا رَسولَ اللَّهِ، أنَسِيتَ أمْ قَصُرَتِ الصَّلَاةُ؟ قَالَ: لَمْ أنْسَ ولَمْ تُقْصَرْ، فَقَالَ: أكما يقولُ ذُو اليَدَيْنِ؟ فَقالوا: نَعَمْ، فَتَقَدَّمَ فَصَلَّى ما تَرَكَ، ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ، ثُمَّ كَبَّرَ وسَجَدَ مِثْلَ سُجُودِهِ أوْ أطْوَلَ، ثُمَّ رَفَعَ رَأْسَهُ وكَبَّرَ، ثُمَّ كَبَّرَ وسَجَدَ مِثْلَ سُجُودِهِ أوْ أطْوَلَ، ثُمَّ رَفَعَ رَأْسَهُ وكَبَّرَ، فَرُبَّما سَأَلُوهُ: ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ؟ فيَقولُ: نُبِّئْتُ أنَّ عِمْرَانَ بنَ حُصَيْنٍ قَالَ: ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ.

الراوي : أبو هريرة | المحدث : البخاري | المصدر : صحيح البخاري

الصفحة أو الرقم: 482 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : [صحيح]

التخريج : أخرجه البخاري (482)، ومسلم (573)

The person "Dhul Yadayn" as mentioned in the above hadith asked the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

يا رَسولَ اللَّهِ، أنَسِيتَ أمْ قَصُرَتِ الصَّلَاةُ؟

(O Messenger of God, did you forget or have shorten the salah?)

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) replied:

قَالَ: لَمْ أنْسَ ولَمْ تُقْصَرْ

(He said: I did not forget and I did not shorten)

The above hadith is from Bukhari, Now lets see another hadith from Sunan Abi Dawood:

صلى بنا رسول اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم إحدى صلاتي العشي الظهر أو العصر قال فصلى بنا ركعتين ثم سلم ثم قام إلى خشبة في مقدم المسجد فوضع يديه عليهما إحداهما على الأخرى يعرف في وجهه الغضب ثم خرج سرعان الناس وهم يقولون قصرت الصلاة قصرت الصلاة وفي الناس أبو بكر وعمر فهابًاه أن يكلماه فقام رجل كان رسول اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يسميه ذا اليدين فقال يا رسول اللهِ أنسيت أم قصرت الصلاة قال لم أنس ولم تقصر الصلاة قال بل نسيت يا رسول اللهِ فأقبل رسول اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم على القوم فقال أصدق ذو اليدين فأومأوا أي نعم فرجع رسول اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم إلى مقامه فصلى الركعتين البًاقيتين ثم سلم ثم كبر وسجد مثل سجوده أو أطول ثم رفع وكبر ثم كبر وسجد مثل سجوده أو أطول ثم رفع وكبر قال فقيل لمحمد سلم في السهو فقال لم أحفظه عن أبي هريرة ولكن نبئت أن عمران بن حصين قال ثم سلم

الراوي : أبو هريرة | المحدث : أبو داود | المصدر : سنن أبي داود | الصفحة أو الرقم : 1008 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : سكت عنه [وقد قال في رسالته لأهل مكة كل ما سكت عنه فهو صالح] | التخريج : أخرجه البخاري (482)، ومسلم (573)، وأبو داود (1008) واللفظ له، والنسائي (1224)، وابن ماجه (1214)، وأحمد (7201)

Same person here "Dhul Yadayn" and the same question asked:

يا رسول اللهِ أنسيت أم قصرت الصلاة

(O Messenger of God, did you forget or shorten the prayer?)

Prophet's answer was same:

قال لم أنس ولم تقصر الصلاة

(He said: I did not forget and the prayer was not shortened)

My point:

The answer of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the answer of a person who we believe is truthful & who do not lie. So what does it mean when he said "I did not forget and neither have shorten the prayer? Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the greatest sign of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his very being is the one who was commanded by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to go for "mubahila" and what was the point of mubahila? To curse the liers or not? 

فنجعل لعنت الله على الكذبين

So for me, one thing is established from the very answer of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) i.e., he did not forget and neither have shortened the prayer

Now lets see the hadith narrated by Sheikh Sadooq, which contains the zikr of same person "Dhul Yadayn" as "Dhul Shimalayn":

وروى الحسن بن محبوب عن الرباطي، عن سعيد الأعرج قال:
" سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول: إن الله تبارك وتعالى أنام رسوله صلى الله عليه وآله عن صلاة الفجر حتى طلعت الشمس، ثم قام فبدأ فصلى الركعتين اللتين قبل الفجر، ثم صلى الفجر، وأسهاه في صلاته فسلم في ركعتين ثم وصف ما قاله ذو الشمالين. (2) وإنما فعل ذلك به رحمة لهذه الأمة لئلا يعير الرجل المسلم إذا هو نام عن صلاته أو سها فيها فيقال: قد أصاب ذلك رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله "

Interestingly, in the Sunni ahadith, the salat mentioned were either Zohar or Asr but here hadith mentioning salat alfajr. 

Why I have taken into consideration the Sunni ahadith? Just because of the phrase of Sheikh Sadooq's hadith:

وصف ما قاله ذو الشمالين

To see what actually was mentioned by this person. And I am surprised to note that why Sheikh Sadooq has ignored what was said by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? I mean the case of forgetfulness becomes close when we see the clear words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that he did not forget & neither have shortened the prayer. So whatever would be the reason is non of my business as I only know my Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as Sadiq (truthful), and I cannot doubt on it as the sunni reports and shia reports are not even clear on which salah that was? Whether it was fajar prayer or zohrayn or maghribayn? 

So Alhamdolillah, I am clear about it now and I have shared with you brothers my personal findings so that you may handle the issue if raised by anyone in future.

@ShiaMan14, @Muslim2010, @Borntowitnesstruth

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5 minutes ago, Cool said:

The answer of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the answer of a person who we believe is truthful & who do not lie.

The hujjah of this statement is not only the ayah e mubahila but also the following verse:

وَاجْعَل لِّي لِسَانَ صِدْقٍ فِي الْآخِرِينَ

26:84

The very being of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is Sidq, not only the lisan (tongue) but his heart too:

ما كَذَبَ الْفُؤَادُ مَا رَأَى

53:11

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44 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

صَلَّى بنَا رَسولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ إحْدَى صَلَاتَيِ العَشِيِّ - قَالَ ابنُ سِيرِينَ: سَمَّاهَا أبو هُرَيْرَةَ ولَكِنْ نَسِيتُ أنَا - قَالَ: فَصَلَّى بنَا رَكْعَتَيْنِ، ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ، فَقَامَ إلى خَشَبَةٍ مَعْرُوضَةٍ في المَسْجِدِ، فَاتَّكَأَ عَلَيْهَا كَأنَّهُ غَضْبَانُ، ووَضَعَ يَدَهُ اليُمْنَى علَى اليُسْرَى، وشَبَّكَ بيْنَ أصَابِعِهِ، ووَضَعَ خَدَّهُ الأيْمَنَ علَى ظَهْرِ كَفِّهِ اليُسْرَى، وخَرَجَتِ السَّرَعَانُ مِن أبْوَابِ المَسْجِدِ، فَقالوا: قَصُرَتِ الصَّلَاةُ؟ وفي القَوْمِ أبو بَكْرٍ وعُمَرُ، فَهَابَا أنْ يُكَلِّمَاهُ، وفي القَوْمِ رَجُلٌ في يَدَيْهِ طُولٌ، يُقَالُ له: ذُو اليَدَيْنِ، قَالَ: يا رَسولَ اللَّهِ، أنَسِيتَ أمْ قَصُرَتِ الصَّلَاةُ؟ قَالَ: لَمْ أنْسَ ولَمْ تُقْصَرْ، فَقَالَ: أكما يقولُ ذُو اليَدَيْنِ؟ فَقالوا: نَعَمْ، فَتَقَدَّمَ فَصَلَّى ما تَرَكَ، ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ، ثُمَّ كَبَّرَ وسَجَدَ مِثْلَ سُجُودِهِ أوْ أطْوَلَ، ثُمَّ رَفَعَ رَأْسَهُ وكَبَّرَ، ثُمَّ كَبَّرَ وسَجَدَ مِثْلَ سُجُودِهِ أوْ أطْوَلَ، ثُمَّ رَفَعَ رَأْسَهُ وكَبَّرَ، فَرُبَّما سَأَلُوهُ: ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ؟ فيَقولُ: نُبِّئْتُ أنَّ عِمْرَانَ بنَ حُصَيْنٍ قَالَ: ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ.

Here is the translation:

Narrates Ibn Seereen:

Abu Huraira said, "Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) led us in one of the two `Isha' prayers (Abu Huraira named that prayer but I forgot it)." Abu Huraira added, "He prayed two rak`at and then finished the prayer with Taslim. He stood up near a piece of wood Lying across the mosque and leaned on it in such a way as if he was angry. Then he put his right hand over the left and clasped his hands by interlacing his fingers and then put his J right cheek on the back of his left hand. The people who were in haste left the mosque through its gates. They wondered whether the prayer was reduced. And amongst them were Abu Bakr and `Umar but they hesitated to ask the Prophet. A long-handed man called Dhul- Yadain asked the Prophet, 'O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Have you forgotten or has the prayer been reduced?' The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, 'I have neither forgotten nor has the prayer been reduced' The Prophet (ﷺ) added, 'Is what Dhul Yadain has said true?' They (the people) said, 'Yes, it is true.' The Prophet (ﷺ) stood up again and led the prayer, completing the remaining prayer, forgotten by him, and performed Taslim, and then said, 'Allahu Akbar.' And then he did a prostration as he used to prostrate or longer than that. He then raised his head saying, 'Allahu Akbar; he then again said, 'Allahu Akbar', and prostrated as he used to prostrate or longer than that. Then he raised his head and said, 'Allahu Akbar.' " (The subnarrator added, "I think that they asked (Ibn Seereen) whether the Prophet (ﷺ) completed the prayer with Taslim. He replied, "I heard that `Imran bin Husain had said, 'Then he (the Prophet) did Taslim.")

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:482

Abu Bakr & Umar or their daughters often emerge in these sort of ahadith. 

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52 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

صلى بنا رسول اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم إحدى صلاتي العشي الظهر أو العصر قال فصلى بنا ركعتين ثم سلم ثم قام إلى خشبة في مقدم المسجد فوضع يديه عليهما إحداهما على الأخرى يعرف في وجهه الغضب ثم خرج سرعان الناس وهم يقولون قصرت الصلاة قصرت الصلاة وفي الناس أبو بكر وعمر فهابًاه أن يكلماه فقام رجل كان رسول اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يسميه ذا اليدين فقال يا رسول اللهِ أنسيت أم قصرت الصلاة قال لم أنس ولم تقصر الصلاة قال بل نسيت يا رسول اللهِ فأقبل رسول اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم على القوم فقال أصدق ذو اليدين فأومأوا أي نعم فرجع رسول اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم إلى مقامه فصلى الركعتين البًاقيتين ثم سلم ثم كبر وسجد مثل سجوده أو أطول ثم رفع وكبر ثم كبر وسجد مثل سجوده أو أطول ثم رفع وكبر قال فقيل لمحمد سلم في السهو فقال لم أحفظه عن أبي هريرة ولكن نبئت أن عمران بن حصين قال ثم سلم

الراوي : أبو هريرة | المحدث : أبو داود | المصدر : سنن أبي داود

Here is the translation & see how salat al-isha become changed to unknown salah:

Abu Hurairah said:

The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) led us in one of the evening (‘Asha) prayers, noon or afternoon. He led us in two Rak’ahs and gave the salutation. He then got up going towards a piece of wood which was placed in the front part of the mosque. He placed his hands upon it, one on the other, looking from his face as if he were angry. The people came out hastily saying: the prayer has been shortened. Abu Bakr and ‘Umar were among the people, but they were too afraid to speak to him. A man whom the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) would call “ the possessor of arms” (Dhu al-Yadain) stood up (asking him): Have you forgotten. The Messenger of Allah, or has the prayer been shortened? He said: I have neither forgotten nor has it been shortened. He said : Messenger of Allah , you have forgotten. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) turned towards the people and asked : did the possessor of arms speak the truth? They made a sign , that is, yes. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) returned to his place and prayed the remaining two Rak’ahs, then gave the salutation; he then uttered the takbir and prostrated himself as usual or prolonged. He then raised his head and uttered the takbir; then he uttered the takbir and made prostration as usual or made longer (prostration). Then he raised his head his and uttered the takbir (Allah is most great). The narrator Muhammad was asked : Did he give the salutation (while prostrating) dueto forgetfulness? He said : I do not remember it from Abu Hurairah. But we Are sure that ‘Imran b. Husain (in his version) said; he then gave the salutation.

https://sunnah.com/abudawud:1008

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1 hour ago, Cool said:

2. Did God make him forget something in salah as mentioned in some sunni & shia ahadith? 

This is a matter which need a thorough scholarly investigation. And I have tried to do some investigation on my own. 

The above part has been taken from the what Sheikh Sadooq said. The person "Dhul Yadayn" is the one who asked the key question from Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Lets first see the ahadith from Sunni books and I will highlight the Arabic text where this person asked the key question and my conclusion will be based on the answer given by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in the same ahadith:

صَلَّى بنَا رَسولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللهُ عليه وسلَّمَ إحْدَى صَلَاتَيِ العَشِيِّ - قَالَ ابنُ سِيرِينَ: سَمَّاهَا أبو هُرَيْرَةَ ولَكِنْ نَسِيتُ أنَا - قَالَ: فَصَلَّى بنَا رَكْعَتَيْنِ، ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ، فَقَامَ إلى خَشَبَةٍ مَعْرُوضَةٍ في المَسْجِدِ، فَاتَّكَأَ عَلَيْهَا كَأنَّهُ غَضْبَانُ، ووَضَعَ يَدَهُ اليُمْنَى علَى اليُسْرَى، وشَبَّكَ بيْنَ أصَابِعِهِ، ووَضَعَ خَدَّهُ الأيْمَنَ علَى ظَهْرِ كَفِّهِ اليُسْرَى، وخَرَجَتِ السَّرَعَانُ مِن أبْوَابِ المَسْجِدِ، فَقالوا: قَصُرَتِ الصَّلَاةُ؟ وفي القَوْمِ أبو بَكْرٍ وعُمَرُ، فَهَابَا أنْ يُكَلِّمَاهُ، وفي القَوْمِ رَجُلٌ في يَدَيْهِ طُولٌ، يُقَالُ له: ذُو اليَدَيْنِ، قَالَ: يا رَسولَ اللَّهِ، أنَسِيتَ أمْ قَصُرَتِ الصَّلَاةُ؟ قَالَ: لَمْ أنْسَ ولَمْ تُقْصَرْ، فَقَالَ: أكما يقولُ ذُو اليَدَيْنِ؟ فَقالوا: نَعَمْ، فَتَقَدَّمَ فَصَلَّى ما تَرَكَ، ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ، ثُمَّ كَبَّرَ وسَجَدَ مِثْلَ سُجُودِهِ أوْ أطْوَلَ، ثُمَّ رَفَعَ رَأْسَهُ وكَبَّرَ، ثُمَّ كَبَّرَ وسَجَدَ مِثْلَ سُجُودِهِ أوْ أطْوَلَ، ثُمَّ رَفَعَ رَأْسَهُ وكَبَّرَ، فَرُبَّما سَأَلُوهُ: ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ؟ فيَقولُ: نُبِّئْتُ أنَّ عِمْرَانَ بنَ حُصَيْنٍ قَالَ: ثُمَّ سَلَّمَ.

الراوي : أبو هريرة | المحدث : البخاري | المصدر : صحيح البخاري

الصفحة أو الرقم: 482 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : [صحيح]

التخريج : أخرجه البخاري (482)، ومسلم (573)

The person "Dhul Yadayn" as mentioned in the above hadith asked the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

يا رَسولَ اللَّهِ، أنَسِيتَ أمْ قَصُرَتِ الصَّلَاةُ؟

(O Messenger of God, did you forget or have shorten the salah?)

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) replied:

قَالَ: لَمْ أنْسَ ولَمْ تُقْصَرْ

(He said: I did not forget and I did not shorten)

The above hadith is from Bukhari, Now lets see another hadith from Sunan Abi Dawood:

صلى بنا رسول اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم إحدى صلاتي العشي الظهر أو العصر قال فصلى بنا ركعتين ثم سلم ثم قام إلى خشبة في مقدم المسجد فوضع يديه عليهما إحداهما على الأخرى يعرف في وجهه الغضب ثم خرج سرعان الناس وهم يقولون قصرت الصلاة قصرت الصلاة وفي الناس أبو بكر وعمر فهابًاه أن يكلماه فقام رجل كان رسول اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يسميه ذا اليدين فقال يا رسول اللهِ أنسيت أم قصرت الصلاة قال لم أنس ولم تقصر الصلاة قال بل نسيت يا رسول اللهِ فأقبل رسول اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم على القوم فقال أصدق ذو اليدين فأومأوا أي نعم فرجع رسول اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم إلى مقامه فصلى الركعتين البًاقيتين ثم سلم ثم كبر وسجد مثل سجوده أو أطول ثم رفع وكبر ثم كبر وسجد مثل سجوده أو أطول ثم رفع وكبر قال فقيل لمحمد سلم في السهو فقال لم أحفظه عن أبي هريرة ولكن نبئت أن عمران بن حصين قال ثم سلم

الراوي : أبو هريرة | المحدث : أبو داود | المصدر : سنن أبي داود | الصفحة أو الرقم : 1008 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : سكت عنه [وقد قال في رسالته لأهل مكة كل ما سكت عنه فهو صالح] | التخريج : أخرجه البخاري (482)، ومسلم (573)، وأبو داود (1008) واللفظ له، والنسائي (1224)، وابن ماجه (1214)، وأحمد (7201)

Same person here "Dhul Yadayn" and the same question asked:

يا رسول اللهِ أنسيت أم قصرت الصلاة

(O Messenger of God, did you forget or shorten the prayer?)

Prophet's answer was same:

قال لم أنس ولم تقصر الصلاة

(He said: I did not forget and the prayer was not shortened)

My point:

The answer of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the answer of a person who we believe is truthful & who do not lie. So what does it mean when he said "I did not forget and neither have shorten the prayer? Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the greatest sign of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and his very being is the one who was commanded by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to go for "mubahila" and what was the point of mubahila? To curse the liers or not? 

فنجعل لعنت الله على الكذبين

So for me, one thing is established from the very answer of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) i.e., he did not forget and neither have shortened the prayer

I count 12 narrations in Sahih-e-Sitta on this topic out of which 10 are form Abu Hurairah and Ibn Umar who are hardly reliable. From Abu Hurairah's narrations, he refers to the prayer as zuhr, asr, either zuhr or asr and "2 rakahs of an obligatory prayer". The variations cast doubt on the authenticity of the narration.

And to your point, the Prophet said he did not forget. :cuddle:

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Thank you brother for your comments and they are helpful indeed. What I was trying to sort out are two things:

1. God can make Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget anything if He wills so. 

I think every Shia would have no objection on the fact that God is able, He is القادر so yes this could happen if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will so.

Can Allah lie? No, because one of his names is Al-Haqq (The Absolute Truth)

Can Allah make the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget? I would say similarly NO because Allah has promised to keep all "rijs" away from the AhlulBayt. Either ayah-tatheer is right or this assertion is right.

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Now lets see the hadith narrated by Sheikh Sadooq, which contains the zikr of same person "Dhul Yadayn" as "Dhul Shimalayn":

وروى الحسن بن محبوب عن الرباطي، عن سعيد الأعرج قال:
" سمعت أبا عبد الله عليه السلام يقول: إن الله تبارك وتعالى أنام رسوله صلى الله عليه وآله عن صلاة الفجر حتى طلعت الشمس، ثم قام فبدأ فصلى الركعتين اللتين قبل الفجر، ثم صلى الفجر، وأسهاه في صلاته فسلم في ركعتين ثم وصف ما قاله ذو الشمالين. (2) وإنما فعل ذلك به رحمة لهذه الأمة لئلا يعير الرجل المسلم إذا هو نام عن صلاته أو سها فيها فيقال: قد أصاب ذلك رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله "

Interestingly, in the Sunni ahadith, the salat mentioned were either Zohar or Asr but here hadith mentioning salat alfajr. 

Why I have taken into consideration the Sunni ahadith? Just because of the phrase of Sheikh Sadooq's hadith:

وصف ما قاله ذو الشمالين

To see what actually was mentioned by this person. And I am surprised to note that why Sheikh Sadooq has ignored what was said by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? I mean the case of forgetfulness becomes close when we see the clear words of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that he did not forget & neither have shortened the prayer. So whatever would be the reason is non of my business as I only know my Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as Sadiq (truthful), and I cannot doubt on it as the sunni reports and shia reports are not even clear on which salah that was? Whether it was fajar prayer or zohrayn or maghribayn? 

So Alhamdolillah, I am clear about it now and I have shared with you brothers my personal findings so that you may handle the issue if raised by anyone in future.

@ShiaMan14, @Muslim2010, @Borntowitnesstruth

Another factor that casts doubt on this episode is that this narration comes from 1 source only - Dhul Yadain. One would think that there must have been 10s or 100s of sahaba during congregational prayers so there would have been multiple sources yet we only find one and that too someone who literally has no other mention in the history books or Ahadith books outside of this episode. 

The only other mention is also from Abu Hurairah, "The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) prostrated twice after the salam on the day of Dhul-Yadain."

not mutawattir hadith at all and only purpose is to gnaw at our beliefs.

Edited by ShiaMan14
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32 minutes ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Can Allah? I would say NO because Allah has promised to keep all "rijs" away from the AhlulBayt. Either ayah-tatheer is right or this assertion is right

I think we need to ponder here on few things:

1. What is meant by "rijs"? 

According to many ahadith rijs has been mentioned as الشك (doubt), so we cannot apply verse of purification here. If we apply it here, it would contradict the verse of chapter 87:6-7 where exception is clear as الا ما شاء الله. 

2. Can Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) lose His قدرت (power or control) over His servants after bestowing them gifts like grace, mercy, knowledge, wilayah etc?

No, He remains in control. So whenever He will to let the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget something, He certainly able to do that. And the same is the view point of Allama Tabatabai who said this in his tafseer Al-Mezan:

وقوله: " إلا ما شاء الله " استثناء مفيد لبقاء القدرة الإلهية على اطلاقها وأن هذه العطية وهي الأقراء بحيث لا تنسى لا ينقطع عنه سبحانه بالاعطاء بحيث لا يقدر بعد على انسائك بل هو باق على اطلاق قدرته له أن يشاء انساءك متى شاء

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/2425_تفسير-الميزان-السيد-الطباطبائي-ج-٢٠/الصفحة_265#top

And the same is what I found in tafseer al-Qummi:

إلا ما شاء الله) لأنه لا يؤمن النسيان اللغوي وهو الترك لان الذي لا ينسى هو الله

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/2338_تفسير-القمي-علي-بن-إبراهيم-القمي-ج-٢/الصفحة_417

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If it’s not an issue for you to believe in the Prophet without believing in his infallibility, then process the imams the same way. 

If you think some people don’t spend enough time with the Quran, just do so yourself and set an example.

Intercession is not an essential thing. If you’re not quite comfortable with it, just don’t practice that. 

Same for lanahs. It’s not essential. If you’re uncomfortable, don’t do it.

The core of Muharram is to retell and remember the story each year. That’s it. Everything else is secondary things that people just choose to do. If there’s something you’re not comfortable with, don’t do it.

 

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19 minutes ago, Cool said:

I think we need to ponder here on few things:

1. What is meant by "rijs"? 

According to many ahadith rijs has been mentioned as الشك (doubt), so we cannot apply verse of purification here. If we apply it here, it would contradict the verse of chapter 87:6-7 where exception is clear as الا ما شاء الله. 

"doubt" can be used here because there was doubt about the Prophet's prayers. 

87:6-7 - is the exception about "recitation" or about "forget"?
[Shakir 87:6] We will make you recite so you shall not forget,
[Shakir 87:7] Except what Allah pleases (to not make you recite), surely He knows the manifest, and what is hidden.

The (to not make you recite) is my insertion to show the context. It does not make sense that Allah would randomly make the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget.

26 minutes ago, Cool said:

2. Can Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) lose His قدرت (power or control) over His servants after bestowing them gifts like grace, mercy, knowledge, wilayah etc?

No, He remains in control. So whenever He will to let the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget something, He certainly able to do that. And the same is the view point of Allama Tabatabai who said this in his tafseer Al-Mezan:

وقوله: " إلا ما شاء الله " استثناء مفيد لبقاء القدرة الإلهية على اطلاقها وأن هذه العطية وهي الأقراء بحيث لا تنسى لا ينقطع عنه سبحانه بالاعطاء بحيث لا يقدر بعد على انسائك بل هو باق على اطلاق قدرته له أن يشاء انساءك متى شاء

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/2425_تفسير-الميزان-السيد-الطباطبائي-ج-٢٠/الصفحة_265#top

And the same is what I found in tafseer al-Qummi:

إلا ما شاء الله) لأنه لا يؤمن النسيان اللغوي وهو الترك لان الذي لا ينسى هو الله

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/2338_تفسير-القمي-علي-بن-إبراهيم-القمي-ج-٢/الصفحة_417

This is not about losing power but the Adl of Allah.  He is "Inna allaha ala kulli shay'in qadir" but He is not going to start having cows give honey and bees give milk.

This would be akin to debating "can Allah make a rock he can't lift?". Allah has power over all things but this does not mean He goes against the rules He established onto himself. I would say however you answer "Can Allah lie?" is the same answer as "Can Allah make the Prophet forget?".

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13 hours ago, hamz786 said:

The lack of focus on the Quran in our communities is something I blame on the people and not the Aqeedah. Any book of faith that I have been through has always emphasised the importance and  how holy the Quran is. I feel some of our people feel that they don't need to worry about it too much because the Imam of the Time (عليه السلام) has not appeared (A mindset I have seen amongst some of my fellow South Asian Shia). 

Regarding our slightly increased focus on the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). I feel that it comes as a reaction to the generational oppression of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) which resonates with the generational oppression of Shias. A need to remind the world who these people were and their importance in Islam, which was/is forgotten/ignored. That's just a theory though.

I have never understood this claim that shias talk about the AhlulBayt more than the Quran or that we give more preference to them over the Quran.

Quran and AhlulBayt go hand in hand. The discussions about the AhlulBayt are always within an Islamic and Quranic context. Whenever we talk about the AhlulBayt, we are really talking about how they lived their lives on Islamic principles and followed the Quran and Sunnah. They showed us how to live our lives adhering to the standards set in the Quran.

I am not saying you are doing this @hamz786 but this narrative was created to distance us from the AhlulBayt and no other reason.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

"doubt" can be used here because there was doubt about the Prophet's prayers. 

87:6-7 - is the exception about "recitation" or about "forget"?
[Shakir 87:6] We will make you recite so you shall not forget,
[Shakir 87:7] Except what Allah pleases (to not make you recite), surely He knows the manifest, and what is hidden.

The (to not make you recite) is my insertion to show the context. It does not make sense that Allah would randomly make the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) forget.

This is not about losing power but the Adl of Allah.  He is "Inna allaha ala kulli shay'in qadir" but He is not going to start having cows give honey and bees give milk.

This would be akin to debating "can Allah make a rock he can't lift?". Allah has power over all things but this does not mean He goes against the rules He established onto himself. I would say however you answer "Can Allah lie?" is the same answer as "Can Allah make the Prophet forget?".

Salam,

My understanding.  

The verses show the difference between

PROTECTOR and Protected.  

Infallibility of Prophet falls under protected.  All his actions were under protected plans and procedures for reasons that would benefits other humans.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is source of all Protections.

 

Wallahualam. 

Edited by layman
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49 minutes ago, layman said:

Salam,

My understanding.  

The verses show the difference between

PROTECTOR and Protected.  

Infallibility of Prophet falls under protected.  All his actions were under protected plans and procedures for reasons that would benefits other humans.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is source of all Protections.

 

Wallahualam. 

Sure, of course.

Allah says "He chooses to keep rijs away". Allah chose to make Muhammad His Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Allah chose to make them infallible.

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