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In the Name of God بسم الله

Doctrine of the trinity refuted

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To continue with some explanation:

They like to use the verse in Deuteronomy as a standard, as it said in the quote above:

"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4

 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our ‘God,’ the Lord is one! --- The word for God is Elohim, --- (YHWH, or Jehovah).

To begin with it starts with the plural name, and identifies it as ‘Echad.’  --- And as it explains it

The Lord our God is one, (Echad). --- And as I copied from the quote online,  “Echad” more closely means “one.” More like “that one” of a group. “Echad” implies that there is another, or one that is with, or united and unified.’  

--- So the Lord our God is one (Echad) meaning ‘one in harmony.’

They quote the verse from Genesis 2:24 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and they shall become one flesh' (Echad) meaning ‘one in union.’

--- An army of 1000 men could also be one (Echad) meaning ‘one in purpose.’

Quote again from online: “This is most troubling since the word Yachid, the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, is never used in reference to God.”

--- The reason is that ALMIGHTY GOD, who is above all was not meant in either Deuteronomy 6:4, --- Nor in Genesis 1:1, where again it said, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heaven and the earth. --- Can we say then that ALMIGHTY GOD was not involved in the creation of our planet Earth?

 

But we can see in the names given in 1 John 5:7 at the three corners of the diagram that they have significance.

“For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.” --- This could also mean one (Echad) --- ‘One in harmony, in union, and in purpose.’ --- As they are each ‘subordinate’ to ALMIGHTY GOD. --- Also the Word and the Holy Spirit are subject to Jehovah, as we will see next time.

Have a good weekend. Blessings

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Peace be upon you guys this my refute on the trinity which I wrote a while back but have not posted, I felt that it needed some final touches which I finished I hope you guys can benefit from this ref

It has been refuted I’ve shown how illogical and irrational it is and how it contradicts the Law and the prophets which jesus came to affirm. Your just arrogant who has no arguments to bring forth; in

lol nice desperate attempt. Go read “trinitarian fantasies” how I refute this flawd argument. Trinitarian: “Is Allah a Father?” Quick footnote: the trinitarian was referring to the “Mus

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10 hours ago, placid said:

To continue with some explanation:

They like to use the verse in Deuteronomy as a standard, as it said in the quote above:

"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4

 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our ‘God,’ the Lord is one! --- The word for God is Elohim, --- (YHWH, or Jehovah).

To begin with it starts with the plural name, and identifies it as ‘Echad.’  --- And as it explains it

The Lord our God is one, (Echad). --- And as I copied from the quote online,  “Echad” more closely means “one.” More like “that one” of a group. “Echad” implies that there is another, or one that is with, or united and unified.’  

--- So the Lord our God is one (Echad) meaning ‘one in harmony.’

They quote the verse from Genesis 2:24 'Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife and they shall become one flesh' (Echad) meaning ‘one in union.’

--- An army of 1000 men could also be one (Echad) meaning ‘one in purpose.’

Quote again from online: “This is most troubling since the word Yachid, the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, is never used in reference to God.”

--- The reason is that ALMIGHTY GOD, who is above all was not meant in either Deuteronomy 6:4, --- Nor in Genesis 1:1, where again it said, “In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heaven and the earth. --- Can we say then that ALMIGHTY GOD was not involved in the creation of our planet Earth?

 

But we can see in the names given in 1 John 5:7 at the three corners of the diagram that they have significance.

“For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.” --- This could also mean one (Echad) --- ‘One in harmony, in union, and in purpose.’ --- As they are each ‘subordinate’ to ALMIGHTY GOD. --- Also the Word and the Holy Spirit are subject to Jehovah, as we will see next time.

Have a good weekend. Blessings

That's not a very strong understanding of Hebrew.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, placid said:

Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4

 

It’s says in Hebrew, “Shema Yisroel Adonai(God’s name) eloheinu(our God) Adonai Echad”

go learn how to read Hebrew and stop lying. your wicked just like Paul, a wolf in sheeps clothing.

 

14 hours ago, placid said:

The word for God is Elohim,

The word for “god” is “elohim”. elohim can be absolute singular and also plural. 

1 Chronicles 17:20 “O Lord, there is none like You, and there is no god(“elohim”—absolute singular ) beside You according to all that we have heard with our ears.”

Exodus 20:3-4

You shall have no other gods(elohim—plural over here) upon My face. 

You shall not make for yourselves a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.”

“Alohim” is God’s name and I’ve already explained its meaning to you yet your being staunchly arrogantly and contradicting the very first commandment.

”Alohim” can only be a reference to the one true God because it’s God’s name. 

@Abu Hadi has this guy always been arrogant and misinterpreting the Quran without having any knowledge of the Arabic language?? Btw I’m Arab so he has no excuse. 

14 hours ago, placid said:

1 John 5:7 a

This has been added by the trinitarians later on, it was not in any early manuscript at all.

to understand if “Echad” is used an expression of unity/complex unity or in its actual meaning a person has to see the context. 

If the Shema intentded to show plurality , it would say, “Hear O’Isreal the Lord our God, the Father, the Son is one” then we would understand that “Echad” is intended as a complex unity. But that is not the case since it does not mention any other god except God Almighty. it says “Adonai(God’s name) eloheinu(our God) Adonai(God’s name) echad(is one)” it is making it clear that Yahweh is one. theirs no other gods called “Adonai” except the one true God. Theirs no Yahweh’s, Adonai’s, el elyon’s, whatever you call Him. In short it’s making it that clear that God is one. Not three or two or three in one like a shampoo bottle. Their is only one God. 

 

Edited by THREE1THREE
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Greetings once again,

Hi Three1Three. I’m happy to meet you via chat and I hope that in the future we can dialogue one-on-one re some of these issues. I have a number of Shia Muslim friends at the local mosque which I have visited three or four times each Ramadan for several years now. I’ve always enjoyed our robust conversations. I was especially touched by three of my friends pitching in to buy a study/commentary Qur’an as a gift for my research. It is a gift that has been a great help in furthering my understanding of Islam.

Ok then, on to your comment re my post of Abdu Murray’s trinitarian explanation:

17 hours ago, Lane said:

 

The Bible teaches that God has one nature or essence and three personhoods.

That’s Modalism, yeah we have persons like Nabeel Qurashi have claim all sorts of things not many Muslims understand Islam. The smart way not many Christians understand jesus religion. (end of quote)

I can see from your comment, Three1Three, that you don’t understand what modalism is. Modalism claims that there is one person who appears to us in three different forms (or “Modes”) At various times people have taught that God is not really three distinct persons, but only one person who appears to people in different “modes” at different times. For example, in the Old Testament God appeared as “Father.” Throughout the Gospels, this same divine person appeared as “the Son” as seen in the human life and ministry of Jesus. After Pentecost, this same person then revealed himself as the “Spirit” active in the church. This teaching is also referred to by two other names. Sometimes it is called Sabellianism, after a teacher named Sabellius who lived in Rome in the early third century A.D. Another term for modalism is “modalistic monarchianism,” because this teaching not only says that God revealed himself in different “modes” but it also says that there is only one supreme ruler (“monarch”) in the universe and that is God himself, who consists of only one person. In other words, modalism is closer to the unitarian concept of God such as is found in Islam than to that of Christianity.

However, modalism is not what Abdu is espousing in his trinitarian explanation. If you had included the sentence that followed the one you quoted which states, “God has one substance but three distinct personalities or centers of consciousness”, then you would have rightly represented Abdu’s explanation and eliminated your claim of modalism. As it has been rightly said, “Context is king,” that is, if one is to come to a comprehensive understanding of a topic, belief, doctrine, etc. (I would like to suggest a book to you that may be helpful in broadening and clarifying your understanding of the Christian worldview, and that is Wayne Grudem’s, Systematic Theology—An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine. You can find it on Amazon.com or in most Christian bookstores.)

One aspect of modalism that I have found to be present in Islamic theology (and other Unitarian belief systems) is that as a monad, Allah is not sufficient in himself. Considering that in both modalism and Islam God is only one person, he would then have no ability to love and to communicate without other persons in his creation. Therefore, as a monadic being, it was necessary for Allah to create the world in order to fulfill his attributes that are listed in the 99 Names of Allah. Therefore, as a monadic being, it was necessary for Allah to create the world in order to fulfill his attributes (ie Ar Rahman—Compassionate One; Ar Rahim—Merciful One; Al Waduud—Loving One, etc.) as all three of those names require an object. You have to be compassionate to someone, you have to be merciful to someone, you have to be loving to someone.  Without his creation, Allah, as a monad, would no longer be independent of creation, but dependent on it to realize the attributes that are being attributed to him. In other words, there was no one to whom Allah could give himself away in unconditional love before creation which, therefore, shows that he was imperfect, at least in regards to one of his attributes.

To illustrate my point, the following is an argument that a number of Christian philosophers have used to defend God’s being as a plurality of persons. Thank you for commenting on the argument itself:

 >

God is by definition the greatest conceivable being.

>As the greatest conceivable being, God must be perfect.

>Now a perfect being must be a loving being. For love is a moral perfection; it is better for a person to be loving rather than unloving. God therefore must be a perfectly loving being.

 >Now it is of the very nature of love to give oneself away. Love reaches out to another person rather than centering wholly in oneself. So if God is perfectly loving by his very nature, he must be giving himself in love to another.

>But who is that other? It cannot be any created person, since creation is a result of God’s free will, not a result of his nature. It belongs to God’s very essence to love, but it does not belong to his essence to create. So we can imagine a possible world in which God is perfectly loving and yet no created persons exist. So created persons cannot sufficiently explain whom God loves.

    >Moreover, contemporary cosmology makes it plausible that created persons have not always existed. But God is eternally loving. So again created persons alone are insufficient to account for God’s being perfectly loving.

 >It therefore follows that the other to whom God’s love is necessarily directed must be internal to God himself. In other words, God is not a single, isolated person, as unitarian forms of theism like Islam hold; rather, God is a plurality of persons, as the Christian doctrine of the Trinity affirms. On the unitarian view God is a person who does not give himself away essentially in love for another; he is focused essentially only on himself. Hence, he cannot be the most perfect being.

 >But on the Christian view, God is a triad of persons in eternal, self-giving love relationships.

 >Thus, since God is essentially loving, the doctrine of the Trinity is more plausible than any unitarian doctrine of God.

I have found the following quote from Ravi Zacharias to be both logically and theologically sound in explaining and making the case for the doctrine of the Trinity:

"In the complexity of the very Being of God there is an I-You relationship within the Godhead. The only way to explain unity and diversity in the       effect (i.e. the creation) is if you have unity and diversity in the First Cause (i.e. God). Only in the Trinity is there Unity and Diversity in the Community of the Trinity. If God ever says He loves, who was He loving before the creation? If God ever says He speaks, who was He speaking to before the creation? Communication and affection (love) are contained in the Godhead right from the beginning! The mystery of the Trinity is a revelation of how God is complete in Himself in One Being; the Three Persons as They relate in love and in language." 

Take care.

Lane

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Hi al-Muttaqin,

Quote: That's not a very strong understanding of Hebrew.

Response: --- I don’t really have an understanding of the Hebrew language beyond what is written in my Bible Dictionary. That is why I look to the World Wide Web, to get a better understanding of the meaning of words and terms.

--- I assume that the two paragraphs I quoted from online are accurate, and that is what I referred to. --- But I am a learner, and if you have more info to help clarify the meanings of the words, Yachid, Echad, and Elohim, it may be helpful.

 

When I was a guest on Shiachat for some ten years from 2005 – 2015, I learned a lot about the Muslim faith, as well as studying the Christian doctrines that were offensive to Muslims. --- Since then I have studied the word of God, instead of doctrines and teachings, to see what the Scriptures really say.

--- God gives insight into His word, as James says in James 1:5 “If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts, is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.” 

--- I asked in faith for the guidance of the Holy Spirit in studying, and I began to get ‘yes’ and ‘no’ answers. I would then begin following a theme through the various books of the Bible.

 

I had said this before that “None of us asked to be born. Hopefully we were born to parents that wanted us, or accepted us when we came along. They saw to our schooling and well being so that we could make our way in the world.” --- Though we didn’t ask to be born, we are here, and our destiny depends on us and our relationship with God. --- We have the opportunity to ‘Study and show ourselves approved unto God,’ or we can work around the wrong answers and become a loser.

--- There are many signs that very soon, ‘God will intervene in this world.’ --- We already have tribulation that is predicted in Matthew 24:21 “For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.”

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3 minutes ago, placid said:

- I assume that the two paragraphs I quoted from online are accurate, and that is what I referred to. --- But I am a learner, and if you have more info to help clarify the meanings of the words, Yachid, Echad, and Elohim, it may be helpful.

You quoted everything wrong and misunderstood meanings of words and the Hebrew language. 

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Posted (edited)

The Trinity Theology is one of the most confusing theologies to grace Christianity. There is a reason why I consider Christianity to be The Black Sheep of The Abrahamic Religions despite their strong affinity in their undying love for Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام).

The Trinity Theology simply put does not make sense given this famous model,

The Trinity Shield: What is It, and Why Does it Matter ...

Let's go through this model if this can be deduced logically

Quote

The One and Only God that is emphasized greatly in the Old Testament is All 3 entities: The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit

However, The 3 entities are distinct from each other. Meaning The Father is not The Son. The Son is not The Holy Spirit. And The Holy Spirit is not The Father.

Therefore, The One and Only God has split Himself into 3 entities, but still acknowledged as The One and Only God throughout this split.

 

So to break it down even simpler

Quote

0 is all 3 things: A, B, and C

However, The 3 things are distinct from each other. Meaning A is not B. B is not C. And C is not A.

Therefore, 0 has split itself into 3 things, but still acknowledged as 0 throughout this split.

 

Let's assume if the Trinity theology, Prophet Jesus/Isa (AS)'s alleged crucifixion in order to die for Humanity's Sins, and we Muslims shall not be saved if we don't accept Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) as our Lord and Savior are ALL TRUE. Here are my 3 questions and doubts which shows glaring ramifications from a spiritual perspective,

1. If Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) truly died for Humanity's Sins then ALL of Humanity shouldn't Sin regardless of their beliefs. Period. Yet the vast majority of Humanity, including Christians who genuinely practice and preach the teachings of Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) through the Bible, Sin regardless. Spiritually speaking, if you acknowledge and put your faith in Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) as your Lord and Savior, you're virtually 100% guaranteed Sinless, similar to achieving salvation, in the eyes of God despite your tendencies and capabilities of Sinning afterwards. Do you have any idea how broken, illogical, and borderline unfair this spiritual perspective sounds in theory? You could be the most evil and despicable person that ever lived in the History of Mankind and still be considered 100% Sinless as long as you genuinely acknowledge and put your faith in Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) as your Lord and Savior. This makes the whole point of taking responsibility for your actions based on your sins on top of begging God for Forgiveness completely pointless, null, superfluous, and void which is unfair because you genuinely accepted Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) as your Lord and Savior which is the true Ultimatum of what it really means to be Christian. Christians therefore, cannot get away making such excuses for a Christian brethren not being a Christian via committing heinous crimes and sins against the Lord and amongst Mankind, if they are 100% Sinless in The Lord's Eyes and genuinely practice and preach the teachings of Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) regardless of their sinful, wicked nature. If I sinned and never repented throughout my Life towards God committing heinous crimes and spreading evil, I should be punished and brought to justice in Hell for all eternity due to my stubborn and rigid nature.

2. If Jesus should be considered as a Son of God (which is a debated term in all 3 aspects: literal, symbolic, and metaphorical) then why can't Adam, The First Human Being Ever, be considered the Son of God regardless of the Original Sin? God created Adam directly without the need of a virgin mother. For God to not consider Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) as The Son of God is truly unfair, ungrateful, and unjust of Him within Judeo-Christian scriptures. Who cares if Adam sinned, he's still the first Human Being and makes more logical and emotionally touching sense to be considered as The True Son of God compared to Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام). The concept of the Original Sin doesn't make sense given that Christians hold a model to believe that Prophets make mistakes and sins, Adam's "Original Sin" shouldn't be considered a Sin based on the Abrahamic Religious Fact that he is The First Human Being Ever alongside Eve. It should be considered "The Original Mistake" or "The Original Misunderstanding". He didn't know he was being deceived by Satan when he ate the Forbidden Fruit nor did he had the knowledge or even experienced the concept of what Evil is unlike the Free Will Angels in Judeo-Christian scriptures who obviously came into creation way before Adam and already have experience and knowledge with the concept of Evil. He had the first experience of a Human Being. So why be so hard on Adam Christians? No respect and just borderline unfair.

3. Finally for my last question on top of my doubts, is the fact that if it is established in the Old Testament that The God of Abraham is One and Only, then why would He in the NT feel the need to split Himself into 3 entities? Many Christians would justify that because God is All Powerful, there is an emotional sentiment that God wants to understand How His Creations truly live their lives in such a Temporal State of Being. Hence, he brought Himself down into a state of 3 entities where He can truly feel and interact with Humanity through Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) given the model that The One and Only God is also The Son. By doing something like this, this would be a way for Him to understand and empathize How different He is compared to His creations. The problem with this emotional sentiment when understanding the Trinity Theology is that God already knows the suffering, the pain, the joy, the sorrow, the determination, and the potential of what Humanity is capable of. He didn't need to bring Himself down into the realm of existence similar to an Avatar like state based on Hinduism/Sanathan Dharma in order for Humanity to understand the concept of the existence of God. God is Omnipotent and Omnipresent. He's beyond everything in this temporary state of existence. A creator always knows how His creations go throughout their trials and tribulations. It doesn't make logical sense for a Creator to step down and join alongside His creations to go through the same trials and tribulations He himself designed if He already knows and understands what they go through.

Edited by ZethaPonderer
adding "not being a Christian" underlined
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Hi ZethaPonderer,

Quote: The Trinity Theology is one of the most confusing theologies to grace Christianity. There is a reason why I consider Christianity to be The Black Sheep of The Abrahamic Religions despite their strong affinity in their undying love for Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام). The Trinity Theology simply put does not make sense given this famous model.

Response: --- From the time I saw this ‘famous model’ some years ago I questioned it and then began to question the trinity doctrine. To begin with, I want to give the diagram that I gave in a post on page 4, as ALMIGHTY GOD is above all, and cannot be understood as being part of those below Him.

--- To understand the names and positions, we can make a diagram that explains the relationship.

--- Cut a piece of stiff paper three or four inches square. --- With a ruler and pencil mark across the center both ways. --- Fold the paper over and crease it both ways on the lines across the center. Take a scissors and cut from one corner to the center. --- Overlap two sides and glue or paste. --- You will now have a three cornered shape with the center raised.

--- On the raised center you can write or initial ALMIGHTY GOD (Yachid).

 This is what Muslims believe, is it not, that there is ONE GOD? --- And this is the right understanding, but ALMIGHTY GOD is remote from us, we can\t attain unto Him.

--- And the three corners are identified in 1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

ALMIGHTY GOD is Sovereign, Transcendent, Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing), Omnipresent (ever present through His Holy Spirit), Self existent, and Self sufficient.

 ALMIGHTY GOD has attributes and abilities to create and sustain His creation by populating it with 'orders of angels' and those He commissions to representing Himself as ‘God’ in His creation.

--- The figure of “The Father” is a personable God we know as Jehovah, a heavenly Father, who can relate to mankind with names in the Scriptures like Jehovah-Jireh (Jehovah will provide); Jehovah-Shalom (Jehovah is peace);  Jehovah –Tsidkenu (Jehovah is our righteousness).

--- “The Word” (Logos) 'through whom all things were made' --- that pertain to our world. John 1:1-3.

Also in John 1:1 it says “The Word was God” (which I will explain later.)

--- And “The Holy Spirit,” the Spirit of God, --- but then, as God multiplied His creation, He also multiplied angels, they became the 'servants of God' as the ‘eyes and ears’ who monitored God’s creation as it expanded, even down to us, as it says in Hebrews 1:13   But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

--- So we have a diagram to look at and consider, to see if this does not identify ALMIGHTY GOD as above all. --- And His organization on earth, under His angels and those He has chosen and commissioned.

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32 minutes ago, placid said:

And the three corners are identified in 1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

ALMIGHTY GOD is Sovereign, Transcendent, Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing), Omnipresent (ever present through His Holy Spirit), Self existent, and Self sufficient.

GOD is everywhere. The Holy spirit is God’s gift you are clearly ignorant.

1 John 5:7 is a fabrication by the Catholics. It doesn’t not exsist in any early manuscripts.

35 minutes ago, placid said:

ALMIGHTY GOD has attributes and abilities to create and sustain His creation by populating it with 'orders of angels' and those He commissions to representing Himself as ‘God’ in His creation.

God is the ultimate Creator, He created everything but leaves some parts for Wisdom for future arguments, thus shows God had foreknowledge of future arguments regarding intercession and monotheism. 

Prophets are God’s representatives they are not seen as “God” rather they are seen as mere prophets sent by God. 

42 minutes ago, placid said:

The Word” (Logos) 'through whom all things were made' --- that pertain to our world. John 1:1-3.

I’ve already refuted you rubbish theory with a strong basis on John 1:1 and John 1:1-3

Your interpretations are nothing but mere fallacies and fantasies with no basis to build upon.

 

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45 minutes ago, placid said:

On the raised center you can write or initial ALMIGHTY GOD (Yachid).

 This is what Muslims believe, is it not, that there is ONE GOD? --

In the Quran surah ikhlas it says “Qulhu Allahu Ahad(Echad)(one)”

“echad” in Hebrew means “one”, the same way “one” can be complex unity or absolute singular depending on the context likewise with Hebrew so in Deuteronomy 6:4 “Echad” is an absolute one and no other not a complex unity. 

 

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Hi  ZethaPonderer,

After this preliminary statement, I will systematically go through your questions. I think you can understand from what I say that I am NOT a Trinitarian, so I agree with you on some points.

--- The first attempt at the teaching in the Roman Catholic Church that led to this faulty doctrine was simply to say that Jesus Christ was of ‘the same substance as God,’ in these words:

Quote from the Nicene Creed: "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God,] Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; (...)

(And at the end they added): “And [we believe] in the Holy Ghost." --- (So there were only two, not three, in their first statement.)

It was the devil’s manipulation to use the weaker Christian leaders to accept the proposed document, which the Emperor Constantine promoted, because who in those days opposed a Roman Emperor and lived?

--- Arian said “There was a time when Christ was not.” --- He didn’t say Jesus Christ, but He said Christ.

Most Christians use Jesus Christ as though they were first and last names. --- But Arian would know, just like we all know, that Jesus was born on earth and therefore was human, born in a flesh and blood body, and therefore would have the DNA of His mother Mary. --- Jesus was born on earth, but Christ came down from heaven to indwell the body of Jesus.

--- Look at some verses that say this plainly; --- Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He (Christ) came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— in the volume of the book it is written of Me— to do Your will, O God.’ ”

--- So it was God’s plan of redemption to send Christ into the world to indwell Jesus whose name means Savior, --- and Christ, whose name means Messiah.

Jesus was not of any divine nature because it says this in Hebrews 2:9  "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone."

--- In the Nicene Creed it says, ‘begotten, not made,’ --- but in Hebrews it says, ‘But we see Jesus, who was ‘made’ a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death. --- Christ was a Spiritual Being that came down from heaven to indwell a body of flesh and blood so that ‘blood' could be shed for the remission of sin.

--- Again in John 3:17 “For God did not send His Son (Christ) into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.” --- The first thing to understand is that Jesus and Christ were two different Beings.

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45 minutes ago, placid said:

but Christ came down from heaven to indwell the body of Jesus.

Your a dualist separationist, this Doctrine does not exist anywhere in the Gospel(s) Just like the trinity and plus it’s not monotheism, it’s a heresy. 

Arian wasn’t a separationist-dualist He was simply a dualist he believed Jesus Christ was the son of God who had a beginning.

You manipulating makes you look like a fool “Christ” means “messiah which means “anointed one” their were many messiah’s before jesus. You Arguments are nothing but mere wishful thinking 

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Hi ZethaPonderer,

Question 1. If Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) truly died for Humanity's Sins then ALL of Humanity shouldn't Sin regardless of their beliefs. Period. Yet the vast majority of Humanity, including Christians who genuinely practice and preach the teachings of Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) through the Bible, Sin regardless. 

Spiritually speaking, if you acknowledge and put your faith in Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) as your Lord and Savior, you're virtually 100% guaranteed Sinless, similar to achieving salvation, in the eyes of God despite your tendencies and capabilities of Sinning afterwards.

Response: --- This is a misleading concept that one can say, “I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord,” --- and then live in sinfulness. --- The idea is to be “Saved from Sin” not “Saved in Sin.”

A person can have faith in God and still live in the world, because we are all sinners. The Scripture says, “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” --- The term associated with accepting Jesus as our Savior is being, “In Christ,’ or “taking on the nature of Christ.” --- When one is dedicated and yielded to the Lord, then it is the Lord that gives the Holy Spirit to indwell him. --- God does not give the Holy Spirit to those who are not sincere, even though they might act like a Christian.

John 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

 --- So this ‘new birth’ is the coming in of the Holy Spirit to give ‘enlightenment’ to the believer. --- There are also some who have started out as Christians but turned back to their sinful ways, and Jesus said again in Matthew 7:

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

--- But this is written to show what is expected of one who truly follows God will.

Colossians 3:1 “If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.”

5 “Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.”

8 “But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.” 

--- This is what it means to be “In Christ,” --- As Christians we still fail and make mistakes, --- but we come quickly back to the Lord and ask forgiveness, and continue on. (We are still sinners, but saved by God’s grace.)

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31 minutes ago, placid said:

he Scripture says, “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” -

Wrong. 

 

31 minutes ago, placid said:

This is a misleading concept that one can say, “I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior and Lord,” --- and then live in sinfulness. --- The idea is to be “Saved from Sin” not “Saved in Sin.”

Again wrong and your own rubbish baseless interpretations. paul makes it clear that Jesus died for your sins and the law is a curse.

 

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On 7/19/2020 at 11:01 PM, Lane said:

For example, in the Old Testament God appeared as “Father.”

lol nice desperate attempt. Go read “trinitarian fantasies” how I refute this flawd argument.

Trinitarian:

“Is Allah a Father?”

Quick footnote: the trinitarian was referring to the “Muslim” God.

Reply 

Monotheist:

“the term “the Father” in the OT is attributed to God due to God’s actions that are being manifested the expression of this attributes is “The nourisher” “The sustainer” “The One who disciplines” an example of this attribute being manifested is in Deuteronomy 8:5 “You shall know in your heart, that just as a man chastises his son, so does the Lord, your God, chastise you.”

jesus never called God “the Father” this was added to the gospel(s) due Paul’s interpretation of Christ being prominent obviously because of his terrorist attacks and persecution to the original followers of Christ thus when the gosepls were written it has a influence on Paulline elements which are Hellenistic. The epistles of Paul predate all four gospels it is obvious that they would be influenced by them and the gospels were written amongst the Gentiles, which Paul did a really good job of deceiving, the Gentiles took advantage of this to mix their pagan beliefs with truth thus the Greek methodology of “the Father” who is in heaven and “the Son were added. 

Jesus always called God “Allaha” “

 

Trinitarian3:

“And in Islam, Allah is said to have ninety-nine names, one of them being "The Loving." "But how could Allah be loving in eternity? Before he created there was nothing else in existence that he could love (and the title does not refer to self-centered love but love for others). The only option is that Allah eternally loves his creation. But that in itself raises an enormous problem: if Allah needs his creation to be who he is in himself ("loving"), then Allah is dependent on his own creation, and one of the cardinal beliefs of Islam is that Allah is dependent on nothing." (Delighting in the Trinity pg. 40 Michael Reeves)”

“I would ask how God could be called Father if He did not eternally have a Son?”

“and prophets referred to God as Father but this would mean that God would be dependent on creating a people to call Him Father if He did not have a Son before the creation of the world”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“These 99 names are attributes given to God due to His actions that are manifested. God is Omniscient and perfect so God has always had the best qualities.” 

‘I would ask how God could be called Father if He did not eternally have a Son?’

“That’s dualism, use ur brain pay attention to what you’re saying. 

The term “the Father” has been added by Paul the imposter in the gospel(s). 

Paul’s epistles predate all 4 Gospels so it is obvious that all four would be influenced by Pauline elements which are Hellenistic.

Btw Mr Michael reeves embarrassed himself big time on the 99 names and how  were they attributed to God and he certainly didnt read the sermons of imam Ali that literally destroy his baseless argument.”

‘and prophets referred to God as Father but this would mean that God would be dependent on creating a people to call Him Father if He did not have a Son before the creation of the world’

“The term “the Father” is an expression used in the OT meaning “the Nourisher” “the sustainer” “the One who disciplines” 

this attribute is given to God due to His actions being manifested.  Here is a example. 

 Deuteronomy 8:5 “5You shall know in your heart, that just as a man chastises his son, so does the Lord, your God, chastise you.”

God was not imperfect and then became perfect once the heavens and the earth exisited that’s blasphemy and nullifies God being Omniscient, God always has had the best qualities Before anything was created.”

 

 

On 7/19/2020 at 11:01 PM, Lane said:

In other words, modalism is closer to the unitarian concept of God such as is found in Islam than to that of Christianity.

Nowhere near close to Unitariansim. 

On 7/19/2020 at 11:01 PM, Lane said:

God has one substance but three distinct personalities or centers of consciousness”,

That’s shows Modalism and also trithism.

if you ask the Son, what are you he says “God” and if you ask the Father what are you he says “God”, if you ask the Holy Spirit what are you he will say “God”. Now  you say they are distinct but they all claim to be God now the fact they are DISTINCT and claim to be God shows that their are three Gods. 

If God has three personalities that still shows Modalism because He is acting like a certain personality at one point and then a another at a another point of time and also another at a another time. In short God is taking the modes of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

the Father is God himself and the Son is Jesus... so when you say God has three personalities you’re showing Modalism since at one point He is acting as Jesus then at another acting as Himself(I.e the Father)  then another acting as the Holy Spirit, you can see that He is switching(i.e taking mode) between the three which is Modalism. 

On 7/19/2020 at 11:01 PM, Lane said:

One aspect of modalism that I have found to be present in Islamic theology (and other Unitarian belief systems)

I think your the one who doesn’t know what Modalism is. Islam has no Modalism. God’s qualities display God’s personality, for example God is merciful, compassionate, the wise, the creator, the Just etc. 

How do you say His Omniscient if your implying He was once ignorant of these qualities? Didn’t God create you out of mercy ? All Abrahamic religions agree on that. This is sufficient proof that God had these qualities before He created, otherwise how would He create the heavens and the earth out of mercy if He didn’t create anything before it out of mercy ? If He created something out of mercy before it than the question arises what did He create before that ? You will end up being in a loop which is problematic. This shows that God has always had these qualities. If we go the opposite it would show that God didn’t have any of these qualities until He created and God was not perfect(I.e ignorant) until He created.

Furthermore, isn’t His creation a manifestation of his qualities? If His creation is a manifestation of His qualities than that means God has always had these qualities before He created otherwise how would He create anything in the likeness of His qualities if He didn’t have these qualities? (The essence of Allah thread) 

 

“He was Lord before there was anything to be Lord
of. And He was God before there was anything to be
God of.

He was knowing before there was anything to be known.
He was hearing before there was anything to be
heard.” 

(From the sermon of Imam Ali, from the essence of Allah thread.)

 

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Hi ZethaPonderer,

Question 1, Part 2:

Quote: Do you have any idea how broken, illogical, and borderline unfair this spiritual perspective sounds in theory? You could be the most evil and despicable person that ever lived in the History of Mankind and still be considered 100% Sinless as long as you genuinely acknowledge and put your faith in Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) as your Lord and Savior. This makes the whole point of taking responsibility for your actions based on your sins on top of begging God for Forgiveness completely pointless, null, superfluous, and void which is unfair because you genuinely accepted Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) as your Lord and Savior which is the true Ultimatum of what it really means to be Christian.

Response: --- The term ‘100% sinless’ is not possible because no one becomes ‘sinless’ by changing their habits or attitudes, since we have a ‘sin nature.’ --- The ‘conversion experience’ teaches us to live a more righteous life in our sinful body, as we ‘put off’ the sinful habits we have been following. --- Your perspective is inaccurate because no one can be a vile person and a true believer at the same time. --- God deals in truthfulness and when Jesus said in John 14:6 “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one comes to the Father, except through Me,” it means just that. --- To become a believer in Jesus, means that you want to follow Him.

--- I would like to show you what I learned in the Quran in Surah 5:46 "And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was ‘guidance and light,’ and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a ‘guidance and an admonition’ to those who fear Allah.

47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."

--- You see, the guidance and light, or ‘enlightenment’ comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit when one is ‘born again,’ or ‘born of the Spirit.’

As I wrote above in John 3:3 “Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot ‘see’ the kingdom of God.”

Bud Jesus said again in 3:5 “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot ‘enter’ the kingdom of God.

Verse 3 says, ‘Unless one is born again, he cannot see (perceive, or understand) the kingdom of God on earth.

But verse 5 says ‘unless one is ‘born of the Spirit’ he cannot ‘enter’ the kingdom of God. --- so this is the deeper commitment to have the guidance of the Holy Spirit in your life, as you live through it, and then to have the assurance of ‘eternal life’ when your life ends on earth.

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Question 1, Part 3: Christians therefore, cannot get away making such excuses for a Christian brethren not being a Christian via committing heinous crimes and sins against the Lord and amongst Mankind, if they are 100% Sinless in The Lord's Eyes and genuinely practice and preach the teachings of Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) regardless of their sinful, wicked nature. If I sinned and never repented throughout my Life towards God committing heinous crimes and spreading evil, I should be punished and brought to justice in Hell for all eternity due to my stubborn and rigid nature.

Response: --- As I said, no one becomes sinless by becoming a Christian. They follow the example of Jesus and identify with the teaching of Christ, as I quoted from this passage.

Colossians 3:1 “If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 

2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

--- If we change our mind to study and follow the teaching of righteousness, we turn away from the dead interests of the world.

 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.”

--- This is the assurance of salvation, when we follow the teaching of the Gospel, and of Christ.

5 “Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.”

--- Notice that in saying “Therefore put to death (or deaden) the things on earth, --- it implies that it is YOU that has to put these things off. --- Therefore, YOU ‘put off’ the things listed in the verses above, so you can’t continue in the immoralities of the world and think that you are right in the sight of God.

8 “But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him.” 

--- Now notice how personal it gets to say, “Now YOU YOURSELVES are to put off all of these:” --- And it list the things that we were guilty of in the old life

--- This is what it means to be “In Christ,” --- As Christians we still fail and make mistakes, --- but we come quickly back to the Lord and ask forgiveness, and continue on. (We are still sinners but saved by God’s grace.)

--- When you say in your last sentence, ‘the unrepentant sinners should be punished,’ it gives this contrast of the righteous and the wicked, who will not make it into heaven, in Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes ]shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

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Hi ZethaPonderer,

Question 2: If Jesus should be considered as a Son of God (which is a debated term in all 3 aspects: literal, symbolic, and metaphorical) then why can't Adam, The First Human Being Ever, be considered the Son of God regardless of the Original Sin? God created Adam directly without the need of a virgin mother. For God to not consider Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) as The Son of God is truly unfair, ungrateful, and unjust of Him within Judeo-Christian scriptures.

Response: --- This is quite an interesting question. Actually the first mention of Jesus being born to Mary, doesn’t say that He was ‘the Son of God’ but just that He would be “called” the Son of God, in Luke 1:34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.” --- Notice the words, He will be ‘called’ the Son of God, --- and He, Jesus, has been ‘called’ the Son of God from then till now. --- However, Jesus Christ represented God so they can both be called ‘the Son of God.’ --- And notice that it was the Holy Spirit that 'overshadowed' Mary to start the pregnancy.

--- This event is repeated twice in the Quran, and this is the account from Surah 3:

45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

--- (Notice that the Word is capitalized.) --- This means that The Word represented God, and shows that there was a relationship between the Word and Jesus Christ. --- It says in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." ---  It says in 1:3 "All things were made through Him (the Word)." --- And it says in 1:14 "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." --- Both the Word and Christ were represented in the human body of Jesus, but neither the Word, nor Christ could be seen, --- however, the Holy Spirit could speak the wisdom of God from them through the physical Jesus. --- (See how the capitalizing of the 'Word' in the Quran correlates the former Scriptures?) 

46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! --- (I believe that in this sense, the word 'Be' also represents the Word.)

48. "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

49. "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah.s leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah.s leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

51. "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"

--- I hope you don’t mind me making comparisons to the Quran, but I see it plainly, that the Quran verifies the truth of the former Scriptures.

We will examine Adam next and see where he is called the Son of God. 

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Posted (edited)

Hi, @placid. I will admit that you brought a lot of interesting points that made me understood what I misunderstood about Christianity when understanding the whole concept of the Trinity Theology. So thank you for your cooperation. In the meantime, answer away with my questions and do your best to clear some of my doubts/misunderstandings. In the meantime, when you’re done with all that you have to say I’ll hopefully get back to you with my response. Still working out on your instructions to what you’re implying as making a Trinity Origami. I’ve seen a video of the Trinity Box Origami. You want me to make something like this to understand the relationship right?

https://youtu.be/UyuNRQStgm8

Can you in some way provide visuals as well on how to make your Trinity. Cause words can only convey so much and I might be doing something wrong with one of those steps. Besides all that, Idk why would that help me understand the relationship of the Trinity, when most of the symbolic models of the Trinity such as the one I already posted, on top of the original Emperor Constantine’s Chi Ro Trinity Symbol seem to get the job done. It just needs to be interpreted correctly that’s all.

They already do their best explaining the relationship between The One and Only God and His split into 3 entities: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit.

Peace/Salaam/Shalom to you placid.

 

Salaam @THREE1THREE, you really know your stuff. So far I’ve looked upon the fundamentals and foundations of The Trinity Theology on Christian Fundamentalist websites and Evangelists from the likes of *sigh* David Wood. So my understanding of it is a bit all over the place. I would advise you to please watch your Akhlaaq (Manners). I’m not saying you’re wrong, but chill man. You know how some people be. It’s up to them if they wish to be convinced or not. You remind me of another ShiaChat user @baradar_jackson who gets really mad when you talk illogical and dumb about anything. I think what would help would be for you to link your sources to back up everything you say so far about Christianity and your understanding of it. I know that you did when skimming through your comments, but you know some people. Some ain’t got time to read all that, so you might as well provide website links for people to click on that in order to refer to and see where you’re coming from.

 

PS: I’m currently writing this through my iPhone 6S so I can’t post the images that I wish to post for further clarity.

Edited by ZethaPonderer
Just correcting my mention of user THREE1THREE
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6 hours ago, placid said:

The term ‘100% sinless’ is not possible because no one becomes ‘sinless’ by changing their habits or attitudes, since we have a ‘sin nature.’

 No we have free will, having free will does not automatically make us having a “sinful nature” 

going by your ridiculous theory, jesus also has a sinful nature. Since jesus when he was tested, the incident highlighted Jesus’ infallibility meaning he can sin but wouldn’t sin because of his God consciousness. others can be like this aswell and jesus has taught how to surpass the Pharisees so people can be sinless of they put the dedication to. 

being sinless means not being guilty of committing sin. You just shot yourslef in the foot. 

7 hours ago, placid said:

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."

Remember my refutes. Your arrogance and deliberate lies won’t prevail.

 

2 hours ago, placid said:

hope you don’t mind me making comparisons to the Quran, but I see it plainly, that the Quran verifies the truth of the former Scriptures.

 

The Quran only confirms the truth that’s mixed with falsehood.

2 hours ago, placid said:

We will examine Adam next and see where he is called the Son of God. 

Adam and nothing to do with the topic. We are talking Jesus alone. As always your never consistent.

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@THREE1THREE Calm down man, placid is so far maintaining his calmness. Work on your Akhlaaq (Manners). Your Aqal (Logic) is sound, but chill man. You’re being rude throughout. He’s just answering my 3 questions and doubts in my first post here in this topic that I brought forth against the Christian Trinity Theology by assuming it’s TRUE. Let him finish. No need to rush.

So if he wishes to elaborate about why Adam can’t be considered a Son of God which I also brought up in one of my 3 Questions living up to the assumption that the Trinity Theology is true, let him finish. So far, I’m not in total agreement with what he’s saying, but from what I’m reading through placid’s reply to me he’s coming across genuine and honest. I’ll soon respond back to him with his arguments and understanding once he’s finished.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/22/2020 at 4:13 AM, ZethaPonderer said:

placid’s reply to me he’s coming across genuine and honest.

DELETED by Moderator

Edited by Mahdavist
Personal attacks wont be tolerated
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Hi ZethaPonderer,

Your first statement concerning a trinity was this:

Quote: The Trinity Theology is one of the most confusing theologies to grace Christianity. There is a reason why I consider Christianity to be The Black Sheep of The Abrahamic Religions despite their strong affinity in their undying love for Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام). The Trinity Theology simply put does not make sense given this famous model.

--- And then you show the flat model of the three cornered diagram, which is a concept that somebody designed, which really causes confusion because it is not Scriptural, but here is what happened. The Christian Church started using that model to teach it as though it was the truth.

(Today you said)

Quote: Still working out on your instructions to what you’re implying as making a Trinity Origami. I’ve seen a video of the Trinity Box Origami. You want me to make something like this to understand the relationship right? They already do their best explaining the relationship between The One and Only God and His split into 3 entities: The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit.

 

Response: --- To understand what I am saying, you can start by not using the word ‘trinity.’

Muslims don’t believe in a trinity of God, do they? --- You are a Muslim, so I have to ask why you are supporting the idea in saying “They already do their best explaining the relationship between The One and Only God and His split into 3 entities.”

--- That is what is completely wrong, God is not divided. There is one Almighty God who was “In the beginning,” --- As I said, God was the “FIRST CAUSE.” --- I recently heard that somebody calculated the beginning of the first ‘cosmos’ at about eleven billion years ago, that would be 11,000,000,000.

--- God would create, and as the heavenly bodies increased and He desired to fill them with life (if He did), then He would create angels and Spiritual Beings to do His work.

I will give you the diagram again with the three sides and the center raised, but it does not represent a trinity, but rather the three that emerged at different times between the beginning of God’s creation, and the beginning of our planet Earth, which has been said is perhaps only about sixteen million years old. 16,000,000.  

--- There is no word in the Bible for ‘million,’ so it is written this way in Daniel 7: 9 “I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened.”

--- God kept expanding His heavenly Kingdom, and our Earth is only a speck somewhere in it.

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3 minutes ago, placid said:

Daniel 7: 9 “I watched till thrones were put in place, And the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool. His throne was a fiery flame, Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened.”

Corrupted verse. Read Numbers 29:19, Exodus 20:3-4, Deuteronomy 4:15-19.

Ask yourself,  who’s Wisdom ? 

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--- As I said before, I am not a Trinitarian, so to understand the names and positions of the diagram, I will give it again with a little more detail.

--- Cut a piece of stiff paper three or four inches square. --- Mark the corners 1, 2, 3, and 4. --- With a ruler and pencil mark across the center both ways from 1-3, and 2-4. --- Fold the paper over and crease it both ways on the pencil lines across the center from 1-3, and 2-4. --- Take a scissors and cut from corner 4 to the center. --- Overlap the sides, 3 over 4 and glue or paste. --- You will now have a three cornered shape with the center raised.

--- On the raised center you can write or initial ALMIGHTY GOD (Yachid) meaning One God.

 This is what Muslims believe, is it not, that there is ONE GOD? --- And this is the right understanding, but ALMIGHTY GOD is remote from us, we can’t attain unto Him.

--- And the three corners are identified in 1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

ALMIGHTY GOD is Sovereign, Transcendent, Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing), Omnipresent (ever present through His Holy Spirit), Self existent, and Self sufficient.

 ALMIGHTY GOD has attributes and abilities to create and sustain His creation by populating it with 'orders of angels' and those He commissions to representing Himself as ‘God’ in His creation.

--- On corner 1, write, “The Father,” who is a personable God we know as Jehovah, a heavenly Father, who can relate to mankind with names in the Scriptures like Jehovah-Jireh (Jehovah will provide); Jehovah-Shalom (Jehovah is peace);  Jehovah –Tsidkenu (Jehovah is our righteousness). --- There is no record of when Jehovah was chosen to represent God in ‘Eternity Past.’

--- On corner 2 write, “The Word” (Logos) 'through whom all things were made,' --- meaning all things that pertain to our world. John 1:1-3. Also in John 1:1 it says “The Word was God” --- (The Word was commissioned by God to represent Him on Earth in the plan of redemption through Christ Jesus.) The Word was a created Being and came on the scene at a later time in ‘Eternity Past’ but before the appearance of our planet Earth.

Remember yesterday I commented on the ‘Word’ written in Surah 3:45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary.”  --- And the Word was represented in Christ where it says in John 1:14, “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” --- So the Word and Christ were manifested in the physical body of Jesus.

--- And on corner 3 write, “The Holy Spirit,” --- Originally there was the Spirit of Almighty God, --- but then, as God multiplied His creation, He also multiplied angels, they became the 'servants of God' as the ‘eyes and ears’ who monitored God’s creation as it expanded, even down to us, as it says in Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?

--- So we have a diagram to look at and consider, to see if this does not identify ALMIGHTY GOD as above all, on the raised top. --- And His organization on earth, under His angels and those He has chosen and commissioned. --- But 'Jehovah,' 'the Word,' and the multiple ‘Holy angels’ are separate Beings that serve God in His plan of Redemption. --- (Lots to ponder and meditate on.)

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2 hours ago, placid said:

ever present through His Holy Spirit)

Your contradicting yourself. You say God is omnipresent through the Holy Spirit.”

1. the Holy Spirit is a gift nothing has to with God’s essence.

2. God is everywhere (omnipresent) once you have confined Him you have given Him a form. 

Agaim your repeat the samthings that I’ve refuted again and again and your are still holding on to a fabricated epistle by the trinitarian. Which you deny arroganty even all the earlier manuscripts don’t have this fabricated verse.

hebrews epistle is not scripture and Pslams 110 is about jesus not angels. 

Hebrews author has quotes many non exsistent verses and takes some waaaay out of context.

 

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On 7/22/2020 at 2:07 PM, placid said:

John 1:14, “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us

God’s decree(word) became manifest. Your dualist-seperationist view has no basis at all.  Just mere conjecture and fantasy. 

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Posted (edited)

Shalom/Salam @placid

Ohh ok I get it now. I actually thought the impression and the points you were making throughout your posts to me were the following based on my understanding,

Quote

Although I’m not a Trinitarian, I’ll explain the fundamentals behind it cause I’m well-versed in this and have experienced this belief.

I thought that was the whole premise of your argument. Hence why you were debating and discussing the whole concept to me on top of answering my 3 Questions w/ Doubts. 

You also misunderstood the whole point of my first post so let me elaborate. Of course I don’t believe in the Trinity Theology but my point was to ASSUME if the Trinity Theology, the symbolic models representing the Theology, on top of the whole Christian Doctrine Trinitarian Fundamentalists believe in is TRUE. From that I intend to extrapolate the Logical Fallacies for why the entire premise of the Trinity on top of the Trinitarian Fundamentalist Christian Doctrine is FALSE in order to REFUTE the Doctrine of The Trinity.

This is known as Proof by Contradiction (Reductio Ad Impossible). That was the entire premise of my first post.

And given your debate and discussion with me you also wish to do the same logical proof tactic.

Overall, we both misunderstood each other.

I misunderstood that you elaborated upon when constructing the Symbolic Model on your terms and conditions. With your terms and conditions to explain the relationship you were elaborating upon explaining the Trinity Theology from your version of the symbolic model given that you don’t believe in the standard symbolic model most Christians agree to.

Edited by ZethaPonderer
Adding furthermore in bold
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Hi ZethaPonderer,

I am glad that you are asking these questions and allowing me time to answer. --- Most Christians and Muslims do not study the Scriptures any more but just believe what others have told them, so it is time to get back to what was written, --- which is for us to believe and follow.

 

Because I want to continue with your question about Adam, I thought to start a new topic, so I tried, but I was not able to answer the questions properly. I started with the title ‘Where does it say, Adam was the Son of God’? --- But then it asked about tags, divisions, and fonts and I didn’t have the proper answers.

--- There is no recent topic on Adam, so I wonder if you would like to start a topic with whatever title you choose on Adam. --- (Or else tell me how to do it.)

Since this is no longer related to ‘trinity’ it deserves a new topic.

I can apologize to THREE for imposing, but our discussion so far was on topic, --- however your good questions (which others may have been thinking but not asking), leads into the main requirement of a ‘blood sacrifice for sin.’

I have a post ready to enter, so I will wait till you enter the topic if you would like to.

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I want to emphasize again that the Word was capitalized, and recognized in other verses in the Quran,

Surah 4: 171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His apostles. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

172. Christ disdaineth nor to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah.: those who disdain His worship and are arrogant, -He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).

173. But to those who believe and do deeds of righteousness, He will give their (due) rewards, - and more, out of His bounty: But those who are disdainful and arrogant, He will punish with a grievous penalty; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or help them.

--- Notice these words, “Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him:

I understand that words in brackets (no more than) were not in the Arabic, so it could read,

“Christ Jesus the son of Mary was an apostle of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him.”

--- This mentions the three witnesses in heaven, God, the Father Jehovah, --- The Word, --- and the Holy Spirit (from Him.)  

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Posted (edited)

The incarnation problem:  It necessitates that a being depends on the existence of its locus (maḥall) and is subject to it, and this is concomitant with the need for others.

Edited by Abu Nur
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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, placid said:

leads into the main requirement of a ‘blood sacrifice for sin.’

Leviticus 4

Hosea 6:6

Ezekiel 18

Mathew 5:17

mathew 5:19-20

Mathew 7:24-27

James 2:8-11

James 2:14-19

you have no basis for this pagan sacrifice.

John 15:10

Edited by THREE1THREE
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On 6/27/2020 at 4:54 AM, placid said:

Quote: --- You’re pretty much saying another god was with God then that god was sent By God to earth. 

 

Response: --- Yes, I think you are finally getting it. --- There is only one Almighty and Everlasting GOD, --- But GOD can delegate whom He desires under Himself to duplicate or carry on His work.

@ZethaPonderer this is what he believes He is a seperationist-dualist. 

I’ve already established the Unitarian theology and Jesus confirms it he has not abolished it.

Mathew 5:17

Mark 12:

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

32“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but Him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

If the Jesus didn’t agree with with the Jews Unitarian theology then the Jew wouldn’t say, “you are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but Him” this shows that Jesus believed in the Unitarian theology.

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

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Hi ZethaPonderer,

I hope you were successful in making the geometric figure with three corners, with the center raised.  --- As I said, the raised center represents One God, which we all believe in.

I want to clarify how the Quran confirms the former Scriptures as it says it does, in Surah 5:48 “And unto thee (O Muhammad) have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher (guardian) over it.” 

I had used this verse from Surah 3:45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.

--- I want you to notice that corners 1, and 2, of the diagram are listed in this verse. --- It says, “Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary,”

 --- This becomes pretty heavy to understand, but you will have to read it over a few times and study it, as you compare it with Scripture. --- Learning doesn’t just come from reading.

 ---Allah (God, the Father), and His Word were instrumental in the ‘physical’ Jesus being born on earth, --- and the ‘Spiritual’ Christ coming down to earth to represent God. --- It says in 2 Corinthians 5:18 “Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.”

God gives a Word from Himself, and the Word He gives to ‘represent Himself,’ is Christ Jesus. --- John 1:14 says, “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” --- So the Word was made manifest or shown to the world in the person of Jesus Christ, who dwelt among the disciples, however, only Jesus could be seen, as Christ was the Spiritual Being that was sent down from heaven, to indwell Jesus. --- Jesus was born on earth, and Christ came from heaven. The verse above said the “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. --- Notice, it doesn’t say that “God was in Jesus.” --- Because Jesus was human with a flesh and blood body, and there is no relationship between the Holiness of God, and the flesh and blood body.

It says in 1 Corinthians 15:50 “Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.”

--- While Jesus was holy and without sin, He was born in a corruptible body that would get old and die, or die as a result of the blood being drained out of the body. --- So Christ was an ‘intermediary’ who came from heaven to ‘bridge the gap’ between the Spiritual and the Physical, --- and He would occupy the body (of Jesus) prepared for Him, as it says in Hebrews. 

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He (Christ) came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— in the volume of the book it is written of Me— to do Your will, O God.’ ” --- (And this is written in Isaiah 48:16.)

8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first (the Old Covenant) that He may establish the second (the New Covenant, of ‘salvation by faith’). --- 10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

--- (The sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross was the final sacrifice for sin.)

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