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In the Name of God بسم الله

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--- The reason I like to introduce John the Baptist and then Jesus  according to the Scripture, is because it gives the confirming verses in the Quran, in Surah 3:

003.033 Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures.
003.034 They were descendants one of another. Allah is Hearer, Knower.
003.035 (Remember) when the wife of 'Imran said: My Lord! I have vowed unto Thee that which is in my belly as a consecrated (offering). Accept it from me. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower!
003.036 And when she was delivered she said: My Lord! Lo! I am delivered of a female - Allah knew best of what she was delivered - the male is not as the female; and lo! I have named her Mary, and lo! I crave Thy protection for her and for her offspring from Satan the outcast.
003.037 And her Lord accepted her with full acceptance and vouchsafed to her a goodly growth; and made Zachariah her guardian. Whenever Zachariah went into the sanctuary where she was, he found that she had food. He said: O Mary! Whence cometh unto thee this (food) ? She answered: It is from Allah. Allah giveth without stint to whom He will.
003.038 Then Zachariah prayed unto his Lord and said: My Lord! Bestow upon me of Thy bounty goodly offspring. Lo! Thou art the Hearer of Prayer.
003.039 And the angels called to him as he stood praying in the sanctuary: Allah giveth thee glad tidings of (a son whose name is) John, (who cometh) to confirm a word from Allah lordly, chaste, a prophet of the righteous.
003.040 He said: My Lord! How can I have a son when age hath overtaken me already and my wife is barren ? (The angel) answered: So (it will be). Allah doeth what He will.
003.041 He said: My Lord! Appoint a token for me. (The angel) said: The token unto thee (shall be) that thou shalt not speak unto mankind three days except by signs. Remember thy Lord much, and praise (Him) in the early hours of night and morning.
003.042 And when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women of creation.
003.043 O Mary! Be obedient to thy Lord, prostrate thyself and bow with those who bow (in worship).
003.044 This is of the tidings of things hidden. We reveal it unto thee (Muhammad). Thou wast not present with them when they threw their pens (to know) which of them should be the guardian of Mary, nor wast thou present with them when they quarrelled (thereupon).
003.045 (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).
003.046 He will speak unto mankind in his cradle and in his manhood, and he is of the righteous.
003.047 She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me ? He said: So (it will be). Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is.
003.048 And He will teach him the Scripture and wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel,
003.049 And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.
003.050 And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
003.051 Lo! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is a straight path.
003.052 But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah ? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).
003.053 Our Lord! We believe in that which Thou hast revealed and we follow him whom Thou hast sent. Enrol us among those who witness (to the truth).

 

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This is the other account of the birth of John the Baptist and Jesus from Surah 19:

1. Kāf. Hā. Yā. ‘Ain. Ṣād.

٢- ذِكْرُ رَحْمَتِ رَبِّكَ عَبْدَهُ زَكَرِيَّا ◯

2. (This is) a recital Of the Mercy of thy Lord To His servant Zakarīya.

٣- إِذْ نَادَىٰ رَبَّهُ نِدَاءً خَفِيًّا ◯

3. Behold ! he cried To his Lord in secret,

٤- قَالَ رَبِّ إِنِّي وَهَنَ الْعَظْمُ مِنِّي وَاشْتَعَلَ الرَّأْسُ شَيْبًا وَلَمْ أَكُن بِدُعَائِكَ رَبِّ شَقِيًّا ◯

4. Praying : “ O my Lord ! Infirm indeed are my bones, And the hair of my head Doth glisten with grey : But never am I unblest, O my Lord, in my prayer To Thee !

٥- وَإِنِّي خِفْتُ الْمَوَالِيَ مِن وَرَائِي وَكَانَتِ امْرَأَتِي عَاقِرًا فَهَبْ لِي مِن لَّدُنكَ وَلِيًّا ◯

5. “ Now I fear (what) My relatives (and colleagues) (Will do) after me : But my wife is barren : So give me an heir As from Thyself,—

٦- يَرِثُنِي وَيَرِثُ مِنْ آلِ يَعْقُوبَ ۖ وَاجْعَلْهُ رَبِّ رَضِيًّا ◯

6. “ (One that) will (truly) Represent me, and represent The posterity of Jacob ; And make him, O my Lord ! One with whom Thou art Well-pleased ! ”

٧- يَا زَكَرِيَّا إِنَّا نُبَشِّرُكَ بِغُلَامٍ اسْمُهُ يَحْيَىٰ لَمْ نَجْعَل لَّهُ مِن قَبْلُ سَمِيًّا ◯

7. (His prayer was answered) : “ O Zakarīya ! We give thee Good news of a son : His name shall be Yaḥyā : On none by that name Have We conferred distinction before.”

٨- قَالَ رَبِّ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَكَانَتِ امْرَأَتِي عَاقِرًا وَقَدْ بَلَغْتُ مِنَ الْكِبَرِ عِتِيًّا ◯

8. He said : “ O my Lord ! How shall I have a son, When my wife is barren And I have grown quite decrepit From old age ? ”

٩- قَالَ كَذَٰلِكَ قَالَ رَبُّكَ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ وَقَدْ خَلَقْتُكَ مِن قَبْلُ وَلَمْ تَكُ شَيْئًا ◯

9. He said : “ So (it will be) : Thy Lord saith, ‘ That is Easy for Me : I did Indeed create thee before, When thou hadst been nothing ! ’ ”

١٠- قَالَ رَبِّ اجْعَل لِّي آيَةً ۚ قَالَ آيَتُكَ أَلَّا تُكَلِّمَ النَّاسَ ثَلَاثَ لَيَالٍ سَوِيًّا ◯

10. (Zakarīya) said : “ O my Lord ! Give me a Sign.” “ Thy Sign,” was the answer, “ Shall be that thou Shalt speak to no man For three nights, Although thou art not dumb.”

١١- فَخَرَجَ عَلَىٰ قَوْمِهِ مِنَ الْمِحْرَابِ فَأَوْحَىٰ إِلَيْهِمْ أَن سَبِّحُوا بُكْرَةً وَعَشِيًّا ◯

11. So Zakarīya came out To his people From his chamber : He told them by signs To celebrate God’s praises In the morning And in the evening.

١٢- يَا يَحْيَىٰ خُذِ الْكِتَابَ بِقُوَّةٍ ۖ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الْحُكْمَ صَبِيًّا ◯

12. (To his son came the command) : “ O Yaḥyā ! take hold Of the Book with might ” : And We gave him Wisdom Even as a youth,

١٣- وَحَنَانًا مِّن لَّدُنَّا وَزَكَاةً ۖ وَكَانَ تَقِيًّا ◯

13. And pity (for all creatures) As from Us, and purity : He was devout,

١٤- وَبَرًّا بِوَالِدَيْهِ وَلَمْ يَكُن جَبَّارًا عَصِيًّا ◯

14. And kind to his parents, And he was not overbearing Or rebellious.

١٥- وَسَلَامٌ عَلَيْهِ يَوْمَ وُلِدَ وَيَوْمَ يَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ يُبْعَثُ حَيًّا ◯

15. So Peace on him The day he was born, The day that he dies, And the day that he Will be raised up To life (again) !

Section 2

١٦- وَاذْكُرْ فِي الْكِتَابِ مَرْيَمَ إِذِ انتَبَذَتْ مِنْ أَهْلِهَا مَكَانًا شَرْقِيًّا ◯

16. Relate in the Book (The story of) Mary, When she withdrew From her family To a place in the East.

١٧- فَاتَّخَذَتْ مِن دُونِهِمْ حِجَابًا فَأَرْسَلْنَا إِلَيْهَا رُوحَنَا فَتَمَثَّلَ لَهَا بَشَرًا سَوِيًّا ◯

17. She placed a screen (To screen herself) from them ; Then We sent to her Our angel, and he appeared Before her as a man In all respects.

١٨- قَالَتْ إِنِّي أَعُوذُ بِالرَّحْمَـٰنِ مِنكَ إِن كُنتَ تَقِيًّا ◯

18. She said : “ I seek refuge From thee to (God) Most Gracious : (come not near) If thou dost fear God.”

١٩- قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَنَا رَسُولُ رَبِّكِ لِأَهَبَ لَكِ غُلَامًا زَكِيًّا ◯

19. He said : “ Nay, I am only A messenger from thy Lord, (To announce) to thee The gift of a holy son.”

٢٠- قَالَتْ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لِي غُلَامٌ وَلَمْ يَمْسَسْنِي بَشَرٌ وَلَمْ أَكُ بَغِيًّا ◯

20. She said : “ How shall I Have a son, seeing that No man has touched me, And I am not unchaste ? ”

٢١- قَالَ كَذَٰلِكِ قَالَ رَبُّكِ هُوَ عَلَيَّ هَيِّنٌ ۖ وَلِنَجْعَلَهُ آيَةً لِّلنَّاسِ وَرَحْمَةً مِّنَّا ۚ وَكَانَ أَمْرًا مَّقْضِيًّا ◯

21. He said : “ So (it will be) : Thy Lord saith, ‘ That is Easy for Me : and (We Wish) to appoint him As a Sign unto men And a Mercy from Us ’ : It is a matter (So) decreed.”

٢٢- فَحَمَلَتْهُ فَانتَبَذَتْ بِهِ مَكَانًا قَصِيًّا ◯

22. So she conceived him, And she retired with him To a remote place.

٢٧- فَأَتَتْ بِهِ قَوْمَهَا تَحْمِلُهُ ۖ قَالُوا يَا مَرْيَمُ لَقَدْ جِئْتِ شَيْئًا فَرِيًّا ◯

27. At length she brought The (babe) to her people, Carrying him (in her arms). They said : “ O Mary ! Truly an amazing thing Hast thou brought !

٢٨- يَا أُخْتَ هَارُونَ مَا كَانَ أَبُوكِ امْرَأَ سَوْءٍ وَمَا كَانَتْ أُمُّكِ بَغِيًّا ◯

28. “ O sister of Aaron ! Thy father was not A man of evil, nor thy Mother a woman unchaste ! ”

٢٩- فَأَشَارَتْ إِلَيْهِ ۖ قَالُوا كَيْفَ نُكَلِّمُ مَن كَانَ فِي الْمَهْدِ صَبِيًّا ◯

29. But she pointed to the babe. They said : “ How can we Talk to one who is A child in the cradle ? ”

٣٠- قَالَ إِنِّي عَبْدُ اللَّـهِ آتَانِيَ الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلَنِي نَبِيًّا ◯

30. He said : “ I am indeed A servant of God : He hath given me Revelation and made me A prophet ;

٣١- وَجَعَلَنِي مُبَارَكًا أَيْنَ مَا كُنتُ وَأَوْصَانِي بِالصَّلَاةِ وَالزَّكَاةِ مَا دُمْتُ حَيًّا ◯

31. “ And He hath made me Blessed wheresoever I be, And hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long As I live ;

٣٢- وَبَرًّا بِوَالِدَتِي وَلَمْ يَجْعَلْنِي جَبَّارًا شَقِيًّا ◯

32. “ (He) hath made me kind To my mother, and not Overbearing or miserable ;

٣٣- وَالسَّلَامُ عَلَيَّ يَوْمَ وُلِدتُّ وَيَوْمَ أَمُوتُ وَيَوْمَ أُبْعَثُ حَيًّا ◯

33. “ So Peace is on me The day I was born, The day that I die, And the day that I Shall be raised up To life (again) ” !

٣٤- ذَٰلِكَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ ۚ قَوْلَ الْحَقِّ الَّذِي فِيهِ يَمْتَرُونَ ◯

34. Such (was) Jesus the son Of Mary : (it is) a statement Of truth, about which They (vainly) dispute.

 

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The last verse yesterday said:

Surah 5:34. Such (was) Jesus the son Of Mary : (it is) a statement Of truth, about which They (vainly) dispute.

--- If the Quran acknowledges that Jesus was the truth and spoke the truth, then I guess we can believe it.

 

Further in Surah 5 it adds these verses:

65. If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss.

66. If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.

67. O Messenger. proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.

68. Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

69. Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

70. We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them apostles, every time, there came to them an apostle with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they (go so far as to) slay.

71. They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.

82. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

83. And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

84. "What cause can we have not to believe in Allah and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"

85. And for this their prayer hath Allah rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.

86. But those who reject Faith and belie (believe not) our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.

--- This is why I like reading these verses in the Quran, --- it verifies verse 5:48, that we are to believe the law (basically the Ten Commandments which were the moral code for all time), and the Gospel, where Jesus Christ said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life,” which is the core of the Gospel message. --- And the truths of the Quran that confirm the former Scriptures as true. --- 5:48 To thee [O Muhammad] We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.

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I thought these verses expressed the feeling of Muhammad’s teaching and needed to be mentioned as a comparable teaching to what Christians believe.

It starts by saying that those who serve or do work in the Lord’s house to maintain it should be believers. It was not for idolaters who believe in other gods to have any position. They are hypocrites that do not know or worship God, so will have no blessing from God unless they repent, --- as the name of this Surah calls for.

 

Surah 9:17 It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to visit or maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell.

18. The mosques of Allah shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

--- Christians believe in God and the Last Day, which is ‘the day of judgment’ when the righteous will be rewarded and the wicked will be punished. --- Christians pray regularly. Not only in organized worship services, but privately in their homes, in mealtime prayers and in their morning or evening devotions. --- Christians are generous in giving to others and as well, many tithe (10 %) to their Church. --- Christians believe in God and have a reverential awe, or fear for God. --- And ‘are expected to be on true guidance’ --- They are to be of good character.

   

19. Do ye make the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the cause of Allah. They are not comparable in the sight of Allah. and Allah guides not those who do wrong.

--- Anyone might be able to serve by giving food or water, or do maintenance in a building, but if they do not believe in God, they should not be serving or working in God’s house. --- They are not devoted to the Master of the House to the point of sacrificing and suffering as a believer would.  

20. Those who believe, and suffer exile and strive with might and main, in Allah’s cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah. They are the people who will achieve (salvation).

21. Their Lord doth give them glad tidings of a Mercy from Himself, of His good pleasure, and of gardens for them, wherein are delights that endure:

22. They will dwell therein for ever. Verily in Allah’s presence is a reward, the greatest (of all).

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--- I hope you will bear with me a little longer while I add details, to show that the trinity doctrine was not in Scripture, regardless of all the attempts to show that it was.

5:48 To thee [O Muhammad] We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety. --- To each among you have We prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you.

--- So God has given to each of our religions a ‘prescribed law,’ or a set of rules to follow. The leaders of Judaism failed to win the nations around them to faith in God but rather, they were led away into their idolatry.

So this prophecy was given in Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

--- God ‘separated Himself’ from those involved in the failure of the Old Covenant, to make a new covenant with mankind. He used the Jews who would follow the Savior/Messiah, Jesus Christ, to usher in a New Covenant which involved an ‘indwelling Holy Spirit’ in believers.

In the last few posts we can see that the Quran includes the births of John the Baptist and Jesus in this New Covenant, and the preaching of the Gospel of ‘good news’ to all who would believe. --- But the Christian Church suffered a setback, before Muhammad came on the scene.

About 300 AD the Churches had a dispute about Christ who was called in the NT the Son of God and the Son of Man. --- The term ‘son’ implies that He was a second or third generation, and therefore not ‘from the beginning.’

Arianism maintained that the Son of God was created by the Father and was therefore neither coeternal with the Father, nor consubstantial (of the same substance or essence), thus suggesting that Christ was a created being.

This is part of the story that has never been told, and I will continue tomorrow ---

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6 minutes ago, placid said:

--- I hope you will bear with me a little longer while I add details, to show that the trinity doctrine was not in Scripture, regardless of all the attempts to show that it was.

5:48 To thee [O Muhammad] We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety. --- To each among you have We prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you.

--- So God has given to each of our religions a ‘prescribed law,’ or a set of rules to follow. The leaders of Judaism failed to win the nations around them to faith in God but rather, they were led away into their idolatry.

So this prophecy was given in Jeremiah 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

--- God ‘separated Himself’ from those involved in the failure of the Old Covenant, to make a new covenant with mankind. He used the Jews who would follow the Savior/Messiah, Jesus Christ, to usher in a New Covenant which involved an ‘indwelling Holy Spirit’ in believers.

In the last few posts we can see that the Quran includes the births of John the Baptist and Jesus in this New Covenant, and the preaching of the Gospel of ‘good news’ to all who would believe. --- But the Christian Church suffered a setback, before Muhammad came on the scene.

About 300 AD the Churches had a dispute about Christ who was called in the NT the Son of God and the Son of Man. --- The term ‘son’ implies that He was a second or third generation, and therefore not ‘from the beginning.’

Arianism maintained that the Son of God was created by the Father and was therefore neither coeternal with the Father, nor consubstantial (of the same substance or essence), thus suggesting that Christ was a created being.

This is part of the story that has never been told, and I will continue tomorrow ---

What do you believe was the Gospel of "good news" that Jesus preached? If he was the Messiah, the savior of Israel, what did he save them from?

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@Abu Nur for the love of God read my post then read Placids comments my post answers some of his questions and I’ve replied clearly with some of his questions now he is bringing non related answers, please clear the comment section, I only want comments related to the subject an non of this nonsense. 

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Hi Flyingeagle,

Quote: What do you believe was the Gospel of "good news" that Jesus preached? If he was the Messiah, the savior of Israel, what did he save them from?

Response: --- If you go back a few posts and find the one that starts with the next sentence, you can see the OT prophecies in Zechariah and Malachi, the last two books, that identify the BRANCH, Christ, as the Messiah.

Post: After explaining that Melchizedek held the offices of Priest and King in the time of Abraham. --- And that the BRANCH, Christ, would occupy the two offices of priest and King, going into the New Covenant, I want to show the ‘transition’ from the Lord of hosts, who called Christ ‘His Companion and Associate in Zechariah, and also ‘His Shepherd.’

--- So the understanding of the relationship between Jesus, whose name means Savior, and Christ whose name means Messiah, is in how carefully you read the Scriptures.

The Scripture teaches that Jesus was ‘born of the Virgin Mary,’ therefore He had a human birth. --- Therefore, the Person of Jesus could not have existed before Mary, however, He was a Perfect Son and was not contaminated by the sin of Adam, or from the bloodline of a human father. --- And notice the wording in Luke 1:35  And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.”

--- Notice that it doesn’t say that Jesus, the Holy One to be born would ‘BE’ the Son of God, but that He would be ‘CALLED’ the Son of God. --- However, being born of the Holy Spirit, Jesus was the Perfect human, that Christ could indwell.

And we have this in Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He (Christ) came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come— in the volume of the book it is written of Me— To do Your will, O God.’ ” (Written in Isaiah 48:16)

8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 

9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 

10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

--- The sacrificial system became a burden to the priests in Malachi, where they profaned the Altar by offering the weak, the lame, even stolen animals for sacrifice to God, --- so when Christ came into the world from heaven, it says, “Sacrifices and offerings you did not desire, but a body You have prepared for Me.”

Jesus was the Vessel born on earth, that Christ came down from heaven to indwell, to be the Redeemer. --- As it says in John 3:17 “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”

Perhaps you have some questions before we go further.

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17 hours ago, placid said:

 

--- I hope you will bear with me a little longer while I add details, to show that the trinity doctrine was not in Scripture, regardless of all the attempts to show that it was.

5:48 To thee [O Muhammad] We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety. --- To each among you have We prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you.

 

Go read my thread “a Refute to the deceivers” you are living in a fantasy and a heresy.

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On 7/13/2020 at 6:44 PM, placid said:

Christians believe in God a

More like two Gods or three don’t take Quran out of context to support your insulting baseless theology. 

22 hours ago, placid said:

Arianism maintained that the Son of God

Arians maintaind that Jesus was a created divine being. The fact he is a “divine” being contradicts Monotheism since its dualism. They believe he was the “begotten” son of God. God does not Beget that’s a animalistic attribute not a attribute that befits the Divine. 

Go read my Pauline refute and stopping being arrogant like your trinitarian buddies.

Edited by ShiaChat Mod
typo

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Hi Flyingeagle,

I would like to add a little in answering your question about the ‘good news.’ --- If you accept what the Scripture says, that Jesus was born on earth, and was the Vessel that God prepared for Christ to indwell. Then we have the two Personages in the body of Jesus.

--- It is the same as a Christian who is in a physical body, and is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. John 3:17 “For God did not send His Son (Christ) into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.”

--- Here was the problem: it says again in Hebrews 9:22 “And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.”

For Christ to have come as Redeemer would not have helped because Christ was a spiritual Being and had no blood to be shed. --- Therefore, he had to ‘share’ and ‘own’ the body of Jesus who was born on earth, and could shed His blood. 1 Peter 1:18 “Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.”

--- While it was the body of Jesus that shed its blood, Paul wrote this in 1 Corinthians 15:3  "For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures."

Do you understand all of this from the Scriptures, or do you understand it a different way?

--- The 'good news' is in the resurrection from the dead. As Christ was raised from the dead, even so shall we be caught up to be with Him. --- In the meantime we live our lives in the right relationship with Christ. --- Colossians 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

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On 7/10/2020 at 7:07 AM, placid said:

Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight.

Behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts.

But we can read it this way:

Behold I (the Lord of hosts) send My messenger (small ‘m’ on messenger, meaning John the Baptist) , and he (John) will prepare the way before Me (the Lord of hosts). --- And the Lord (the Messiah), whom you (Jews) seek, will suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger (capital ‘M’ on Messenger, meaning Christ the Messiah), in whom you delight. (The Jews delighted in the promise of a Messiah coming and rejoiced at His birth)

Behold, He (the Messiah) is coming, says the Lord of hosts.

--- Notice that it was the Lord of hosts who was speaking in the ‘first person’ until the last line when He said, “He is coming,” in the ‘third person.’

 

I’ve Already refuted that, ur just dullesional, God speaks in third person many times in the Torah.  

Your shot yourself big time on this.

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Quote

Your thread is in Christianity/Judaism Dialogue subforum. You need to ignore his posts or reply to him. Otherwise, please create threads in the General Islamic Discussion. 

Dunno if you haven’t notice but there’s no “theology” subform, so I had no choice but to put it as “Christianity/Judaism dialogue. 

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50 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Dunno if you haven’t notice but there’s no “theology” subform, so I had no choice but to put it as “Christianity/Judaism dialogue. 

Using Bible verses does pertain to the Christianity/Judaism dialogue. Please allow others to reply to your posts and respond with kindness or ignore. 

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Hi THREE,

I am sorry that you disapprove of my posting on your thread, but I thought since you were ‘Refuting the trinity doctrine,’ that I might be helpful in going beyond that to prove that the trinity is not Scriptural, --- but I see that you don’t like my approach.

I also understand the Shias’ view of Jesus, and it seems that you disagree --- because it seems that you are suggesting that 'Jesus was divine, 'and was the Son of God?

Quote from your post above:  Arians maintained that Jesus was a created divine being. The fact he is a “divine” being contradicts Monotheism since its dualism. They believe he was the “begotten” son of God.

--- And I wonder what you believe, and what you mean by ‘dualism'? --- Could you explain it?

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18 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

Using Bible verses does pertain to the Christianity/Judaism dialogue. Please allow others to reply to your posts and respond with kindness or ignore. 

I’m allowing others to reply but has to be within the subject. Placid is going to the Quran and Abraham and every other prophet which has nothing to do with the trinity nor does his approach corresponds with refuting the trinity.

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Greetings and as-salāmu ‘alaykum!
My name is Lane and I am a Christian. One of my friends referred me to this site and I have found the discussions to be of particular interest as I have a number of Muslim friends with whom I am having ongoing discussions on many of the same topics. I enjoy discussing both the similarities and differences of the Islamic and Christian worldviews/faiths, and my hope is that my contributions to the discussions will be beneficial to others, as I know others comments will be to me.

As a contribution to the discussion re the Trinity, I would like to offer the following excerpts from Abdu Murray's chapter, God's Triune Greatness, from his book, Grand Central Questions—Answering the Critical Concerns of the Major Worldviews. Abdu Murray is a prominent lawyer in the U.S. and is a former Shia Muslim apologist, who after years of inquiry, converted to Christianity and is now a speaker for Ravi Zacharias Ministries. A number of my Muslim friends have found Abdu's treatise on the Trinity to be thought provoking, and to some, even compelling. I hope it is a helpful addition to the discussion. Also, if you have any questions re Abdu’s treatise on the Trinity, please feel free to contact me and I will do my best to answer your questions.

Abdu Murray:

“The efforts to interpret the Trinity out of the Bible have not been able to scale the great wall formed by the many passages that teach God’s triunity. The Bible teaches that God has one nature or essence and three personhoods. God has one substance but three distinct personalities or centers of consciousness. While the biblical data supporting each aspect of the Trinity is legion, we need to consider only a few key passages to realize how important this is in the corpus of holy writ. First, the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God. From the Old Testament books of Moses, we get the famous Shema, the command to believe that God is one: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4). In Isaiah 45:5, God himself says, “I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God.” The New Testament writers—the same writers who affirm the Trinity—declare that there is only one God. James tells us, “You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!” (James 2:19). But the Bible also teaches that three distinct persons—Father, Son, Holy Spirit—are simultaneously that same God. From beginning to end, we read in the Bible that the Father is God (Isaiah 64:8; Matthew 3:17), the Son is God (Psalm 110; John 8:58) and the Holy Spirit is God (Psalm 139:7-12; 2 Corinthians 3:17). Not only does the Bible teach that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are God, but it also teaches that each of them is distinct from the other. As Saleeb and Geisler put it, “The Father and Son carried on conversations with each other. The Son prayed to the Father (John 17). The Father spoke from heaven about the Son at his baptism (Matt. 3:15-17).”6 And Jesus specifically stated that when he departed from the disciples, “another [that is, separate] Helper”—the Holy Spirit—would come to them (John 14:16; 16:13). The Bible is filled with references to each person of the Trinity as separate yet equally God (see table 9.1).

From these passages, we can see that the case is overwhelming that the Bible teaches that God is one in nature and three in person. He has one divine essence and three divine but separate personalities. In fact, even in the Shema, the Hebrew creed uttered in the formative stages of the nation that would bring about the Messiah, we see glimpses of the Trinity. In English, the Shema is translated as “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one” (Deuteronomy 6:4). The Hebrew word translated as “God” in this passage is Elohim, which is literally a plural word for “gods.” And the Hebrew word translated as “one” is ehad, which can mean a singular unit but also can mean unification. In fact, ehad is used in the Old Testament to describe people from many nations coming together “as one” to fight against Joshua and the Israelites (Joshua 9:2). The Bible describes the union of Adam and Eve to become ehad—“one flesh” (Genesis 2:24). In the entire context of Scripture, we see that the Bible teaches that God is one in his nature or essence, yet three in that he has three separate personages. So Muslims, who logically, theologically and historically cannot believe that the Scripture was corrupted, face the dilemma of having to reject the teachings of a book they cannot reject.

I have come to the conclusion that Islam’s rejection of the Trinity is one of the most profound ironies in comparative religion. Islam rejects the Trinity out of a fear that it leads to the unforgivable sin of shirk, which is saying that God has partners. Shirk is Islam’s cardinal sin because it diminishes God’s greatness by saying that he is equaled by another or that he needs associates to do what he wants or to be who he is. The irony is that, when properly understood, the Trinity is the very doctrine that glorifies God as the self-subsisting, coherent yet completely transcendent being that Muslims claim him to be.

For those Muslims who see what the Bible teaches, the Trinity puts them in a difficult position. To reject the Trinity, a Muslim may resort to claiming that it is a corruption of the Bible, but he cannot do so, because the Qur’an does not allow Muslims to believe in biblical corruption. (See my article addressing biblical corruption, here) So Muslims who truly understand this tension are left with only one avenue: they must reinterpret the Bible so that it does not teach the Trinity…Muslims do not need to resort to such measures if their sincere goal is to believe in the one and only great God. If it is, then I would argue that they must believe in the Trinity for three reasons. First, the Bible (which a Muslim must believe is uncorrupted) teaches it. Second, the Trinity does not defy logic. And third, the Trinity proves God to be the Greatest Possible Being over and above a Unitarian conception of God. 

…Muslims ultimately do not have to sacrifice their sense of reason to see the reality of the Trinity. They can embrace the truth because it is taught in the Scripture, because it is consistent with logic and because it transcends human logic. This is a key distinction that must be kept in mind. A truth, like the Trinity, can exceed our logic without violating it. A concept can be transcendent in the sense that it is not illogical-it is not contradictory-but it is beyond our ability to full understand. Muslims and Christians share many such beliefs. They believe that God is a being without beginning and without end. There is nothing inherently contradictory about the belief in God’s eternality, yet it is impossible for us to understand fully. How can we? We are finite beings, each of us with a beginning, living in a world where everything in the natural order has a beginning. So it would be impossible to comprehend God’s eternality fully, though we might be able to apprehend it.

The Trinity is not the belief that God is one in his nature and three in his nature. That would be an obvious breach of the law of noncontradiction. Similarly, the Trinity is not the belief that God is one in his personhood and three in his personhood. That, Too, is explicitly contradictory and nonsensical. In distinction to either of these ideas, the Trinity is the belief that God has one nature-one essence-and three personhoods, or three centers of consciousness. This would be contradictory only if something’s “nature” is the same as its “person,” because then the Trinity would teach that God is only one in one sense and also three in the same sense. But “nature” and “person” are distinct concepts, which keeps the Trinity from internal inconsistency. Perhaps an illustration will help us unpack the nature/person distinction. Something’s nature is its very basic or inherent characteristic.

A nature is what some is. One can look at a rock and ask what it is. In its most basic nature, a rock is a nonliving or inorganic thing. But “personhood” is a far different thing. Personhood describes something’s relational, volitional, intellectual and emotional qualities. Human beings have personhood because they relate to one another and to the world around them. They have a will an intellect and emotions. But a human being also has a nature, a basic or inherent characteristic. And so we see that nature and personhood are distinct concepts. And as distinct concepts, there is no law of logic that is violated-there is no contradiction-in claiming that God is one in his nature and three in his personhoods. This may transcend our reason, but it does not defy it. Just because we cannot fully comprehend how a single being can be tri-personal does not mean it is not possible…Muslims’ affirmation of God’s differentness practically screams out for the answer found in the Trinity. In fact, I would expect a Muslim to readily acknowledge that if God in his very nature were simple to understand because he resembles our single nature/single person existence, perhaps we invented him to be that way. In other words, if God in his very being looks just like us, then the chances are quite good that we created him our image instead of the other way around. A Muslim would perish the thought. And so rather then bother us, the Trinity’s grand yet logically consistent mystery provides us with solace that we are on to something marvelous to our pursuit to worship the Greatest Possible Being.”

There is also a Youtube video clip of Abdu explaining the Trinity during a Q & A session at a recent conference which can be found by typing in: Is the Trinity a Contradiction? Abdu Murray in the Youtube search.

Ma’a al-salaama!
Lane

[Edit]

Edited by Hameedeh
Edit: email address removed. No discussion by email.

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Hi THREE,

Quote: Do you believe there is only one Divine being or two ? 

Response: --- I believe that there is one Almighty God who has the attributes and abilities to be Sovereign, Transcendent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Self existent, and Self sufficient. --- However, God can use His subordinates and angels to do His work

--- I believe the Hebrew word for ‘One God’ is Yachid. --- But in Genesis 1:1 we come to another name for God from the Hebrew, Elohim, which, with another Hebrew word Echad, both mean ‘a united One.’ --- And this one seems to be YHWH or Jehovah, a more personal God.

--- So there is another one who was called God, who was not ‘Almighty God.’ 

In the true beginning in Eternity Past, Almighty God was the “First Cause” --- We know that since there is a ‘creation,’ there had to be a Creator. --- However, our universe is much younger, and our planet earth, by some calculations may only be about 16 million years old. --- Then much of that time was as a dark planet ‘without form and void,’ or empty.

--- When the new creation came on earth, it was not by Almighty God, Yachid, but by more than one Personage, called Elohim.  --- However, we don’t have all the information so we accept what we know, and trust God to guide us in what He reveals.

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43 minutes ago, placid said:

- I believe the Hebrew word for ‘One God’ is Yachid

No it’s echad. For the love of God read Deuteronomy 19:15 then Deuteronomy 6:4 the context is clear. You Argument is very flawed and stupid. 

Shema Yisroel Adonai eloheinu Adonai Echad

43 minutes ago, placid said:

- I believe that there is one Almighty God

 

43 minutes ago, placid said:

So there is another one who was called God,

Not being consistent, and that’s dualism not monotheism.

 

43 minutes ago, placid said:

Elohim, which, with another Hebrew word Echad, both mean ‘a united One.’

I’ve already refuted about Elohim deception. Go read the original post and the second post which I explained it’s meaning.

Go read my recent reply to Leslie P on “is jesus a madam or crazy?” Thread then come back here. 

Edited by THREE1THREE

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17 hours ago, Lane said:

The Bible teaches that God has one nature or essence and three personhoods.

That’s Modalism, yeah we have persons like Nabeel Qurashi have claim all sorts of things not many Muslims understand Islam. The smart way not many Christians understand jesus religion. 

Check out “trinitarians fantasies” thread

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17 hours ago, Lane said:

God” in this passage is Elohim,

Wrong, “Shema Yisroel ADONAI(God’s name) eloheinu(our God) ADONAI Echad([is] one)” plz read the original post before commenting I don’t need to repeat myself. 

 

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17 hours ago, Lane said:

And the Hebrew word translated as “one” is ehad, which can mean a singular unit but also can mean unification. In fact, ehad is used in the Old Testament to describe people from many nations coming together “as one” to fight against Joshua and the Israelites (Joshua 9:2). The Bible describes the union of Adam and Eve to become ehad—“one flesh” (Genesis 2:24).

“....the trinitarians say that the Shema is complex unity and not absolute one alone and no other. They make this claim because the word “Echad”, which means “one” in Hebrew the same way “one” means “one” in English, is a complex unity by quoting some verses that doesn’t use the word “Echad” in a literal sense rather in complex unity such as Genesis 2:24 “Therefore, a man shall leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one(Echad) flesh.” Now over here obviously the word “Echad” is not used in the literal sense rather it’s a complex unity, so the word “Echad” in the shema is a complex unity hence the trinity. Now the these trinitarians don’t show you the verses were the word “Echad” is used the proper way which is absolute one and no other. So they would perhaps convince the ignorant the word “Echad” is a complex unity. But the word “Echad” is all over the bible sometimes it’s used in a complex unity and some times it’s used in a literal sense which is its actual form and meaning, absolute one and no other, to understand the word “Echad” you have to look at the context, weather it’s being used in a complex unity or being used in a literal sense which is its actual form and meaning. Here is a example of two verses that use the word “Echad” in its literal sense, which is its actual form and meaning. 

Deuteronomy 17:6 “By the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall the one liable to death be put to death; he shall not be put to death by the mouth of one(Echad) witness.” 

Deuteronomy 19:15 “One(Echad) witness shall not rise up against any person for any iniquity or for any sin, regarding any sin that he will sin. By the mouth of two witnesses, or by the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be confirmed.”

As clearly shown the word “Echad” is not a complex unity in these verses rather it is used in its actual form and meaning, which is absolute one and no other. So when the word “Echad” is used in a complex unity a person must read it in context to understand what meaning is implied in the word “Echad”. Now in the shema it reads, Shema(Hear) Yisroel (O’Israel) Adonai(the Lord) Eloheinu( our God) Adonai(the Lord) Echad (is one). No where does the shema show the word “Echad” is used in a complex unity sense rather it’s clear that the word “Echad” is used in its actual form and meaning, which is absolute one, one Wholly, one and no other, that’s as clear as you can get.  If the shema used the word “Echad” in a complex unity sense then the Shema should say, “Hear O’Israel the Lord the Father, and the son and the Holy Spirit our God the Lord is one(Echad)” Or “Hear O’Israel the Lord our God the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit is one(Echad)”

Which is obviously not the case. The trinitarians try very hard to force to in the doctrine of the trinity by taking words, metaphors, idioms and verses which is blasphemy and a shame.” (Doctrine of the trinity Refuted thread) 

18 hours ago, Lane said:

Muslims to believe in biblical corruption.

Read “A refute to the deceivers” thread, it answers this lie and scam. 

18 hours ago, Lane said:

Elohim, which is literally a plural word for “gods.”

You shot yourself on the foot on that one if it’s “gods” then their is more than one God thats polytheism. 

 

“Another deception that trinitarians try to do is show that the word “Elohim” is plural hence doctrine of trinity is present. Now in Tanakh their are other words that are also plural but are also absolute singular for example the word “shamayim” in Hebrew  which means “heaven” and also “heavens” is used many times in the Tanakh, the word “shamayim” is used in a absolute singler form and also sometimes used in a plural form. The word “Elohim” has many meanings(I.e expressions) and also can be singler and also plural. When “Elohim” is used in the plural form it can be referring to false gods and as an expression an example it can also mean “Judge” which can we can see in Exodus 7:1 “The Lord said to Moses, ‘See! I have made you a judge(elohim) over Pharaoh, and Aaron, your brother, will be your speaker.’ Also the word “Elohim” is used as an expression again like in Psalms 82:6 “ I have said you are elohim (godly), and are all sons(godly servants) of the Most high” over here“elohim” is used as an expression of a persons righteousness and devotion to God. When the word “Elohim” is used to refer to the one true God, it is used in its absolute singular form, and the “im” at the end is a plural of majesty/royalty and when the word “Elohim” is used to refer to the one true God it’s pronounced “Alohim” not “Elohim”. Many trinitarians try to deceive people by forcing the doctrine of trinity in the word “Elohim” when the word “Elohim” is used in a singler form in many places and also other words that are like it that can be plural such as “shamayim” are also used in a absolute singular form. And also the word “Elohim” has many other expressions and also is used in a absolute singular and plural as I have shown. In short the possibility of the doctrine of trinity being present in the word “Elohim” is not possible since it’s irrational, illogical and not consistent and contradicting as I have shown aswell” (Doctrine of the trinity refuted thread) 

 

18 hours ago, Lane said:

the Son is God (Psalm 110; John 8:58)

“Another deception that the trinitarians bring up is the “I am” Argument. The “I am” argument is another big scam and lie, in Exodus 3:14 in Hebrew it says “Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh”, “Ehyeh” is just a word which means “i will” and also “I will be” in exodus 3:12 God tells Moses “Ehyeh(i will be)  immek(with you)”. “I am” in Hebrew is “Ani” not “Ehyeh” the world “Ehyeh” is used so many times across the Hebrew bible and it has nothing to do with God’s name it’s just a word. 

Many times does the world “I am” occur in the Tanakh here a few examples, 

“I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides me” - Isaiah 44:6

“ I am the Lord, and there is no other; Beside me there is no God” Isaiah 45:5

“I am God, and there’s no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9

In all of these passages and many more in Hebrew the word “I am” it says “Ani” not “Ehyeh”.

“Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh” in Exodus 3:14 is “I will be what I will be” or also “I shall be what I Shall be” 

“Ani” means “I” and also “I am”; “Ani hu” means “I am he” “ (Doctrine of the trinity refuted thread)

 

“Trinitarian:

“Psalm 110 and 2.” Quick footnote: trinitarian’s Argument on jesus being God in the OT. 

Reply 

Monotheist:

Psalm 110:1 

which In hebrew it says 

“Yahweh said to adoni(Not ADONAI)”

“adoni” means “my master” the same way a student calls his leader Master in the ancient times or a slave calls his leader Master. 

Adonai on the other hand is God’s name which means “the LORD”

God’s name “Adonai” appears in the Shema.

“Shema Yisroel ADONAI eloheinu ADONAI Echad”  

Psalms 2:

show’s jesus is in the highest heaven and is laughing at his enemies and God is mocking them. There is a clear distinguishment.

“Why have nations gathered and [why do] kingdoms think vain things? 

Kings of a land stand up, and nobles take counsel together against the LORD and against His Messiah ? 

“Let us break their bands and cast off their cords from us.”

He who dwells in heaven laughs(reference to jesus); the LORD mocks them.

Then He speaks to them in His wrath; and He frightens them with His sore displeasure.

“But I have enthroned My king on Zion, My holy mount.”

I will tell of the decree; The LORD said to me, “You are My son(godly servant); this day I have begotten(gave rise to) you. 

Request of Me, and I will make nations your inheritance, and the ends of the earth your possession.

You shall break them with an Iron rod; like a potter’s vessel you shall shatter them.

And now, [you] kings, be wise; be admonished, [you] Judges of earth.

Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with quaking.

Arms yourselves with purity lest He becomes angry and you perish in the way; for in a moment His wrath will be kindled; the praise of all who take refuge in Him”

 

Quick footnote: on Psalms 2:

2Kings of a land stand up, and nobles take counsel together against the Lord and against His messiah?

3"Let us break their bands and cast off their cords from us."

4He Who dwells in Heaven laughs; the Lord mocks them.

In verse 2 their is a clear distinguishing God from Jesus the messiah , then in verse 4 it says “he who dwells in heaven laughs” this is a reference to jesus since he ascended to heaven and escaped death then it says “Yahweh mocks them” their is a clear distinction from the one who laughs and the One who is mocking. Even the passage has a semicolon between them as we can clearly see from the context God and the Messiah are distinguished from each other because that’s what the passage is conveying.” (Trinitarian fantasies thread)

18 hours ago, Lane said:

The Father spoke from heaven about the Son at his baptism (Matt. 3:15-17)

Leslie P Trinitarian

“(Baptism of Jesus Matthew 3)

Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one place. An excellent way to visualise how the Trinity works.”

reply 

Three1Three Unitarian

“Picture this in your head. Jesus ,a man, came to John got baptised then a voice was heard (which is God creating sound waves) then the God strengthens jesus with the holy spirit which came in a form of a dove supposedly. three of this things are DISTINCT from each other... their not one, so it’s either you believe God is made up of three parts or the three make a group called “God”.” (Was Jesus a liar or a madman ? Thread) 

 

Leslie P trinitarian

“And yet Paul writes (Phil 2:10) that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth“ clearly referencing Isaiah 45: “for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone are deliverance and strength.’” Clearly Paul thinks Jesus is God.

I think you're getting a bit confused about how Paul uses the phrase “God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” to refer to the role of Jesus. The meaning is 'God, who is the the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ'.

It's the same God..Lord...structure as the 1 Corinthians 8 passage- “there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him”. Notice how Jesus has taken on the role of Kyrios- Lord, who in the original Shema is definitively God.

So to stress the point, Paul has taken the ultimate prayer of monotheism, the One God prayer, and inserted Jesus into it in such a way that makes it clear that Jesus is God.”

reply 

Three1Three Unitarian 

“You are taking Isaiah 45 which talks about God Almighty out of context. Paul was a dualist who believed Jesus was divine (i.e a god) but is subordinate to the Father who is God Almighty.”

“I think you Should take an English class. Seriously this is ridiculous. 

Ephesians 1:3

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

the God of who? Jesus! Basic grammar, It is clear that Jesus has a God. 

As for 1 Corinthians 8:6, lets have a look at it again. 

Verse 5, “5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”)” as you can see Paul is distinguishing gods from lords now since Paul has already mentioned “gods” then the meaning of “lords” means masters now as we read further in the context in verse 6 Paul says, “, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

Paul crystal clearly says, “yet for us there is but one God, the Father,...”

Paul’s calls God “the Father”. Not the son nor Holy Spirit nor the trinity. 

Paul betrays Jesus as an instrument used by God to create things. And through whom they live for God the Father. 

“...and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

as we can clearly see Paul sees Jesus as not God Almighty, rather subordinate to God almighty. Also the context is pretty clear that the term “lord” here means “Master”.

now the fact that Paul believes Jesus is a God that is subordinate to God the Father contradicts Shema, the context of the Shema Affirms the Unitarian theology.” (Was jesus a liar or a madman ? Thread)

 

“Trinitarian:

“We worship one God, in three persons.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“Modalism.”

Reply 

Trinitarian:

“You know full well that we don’t believe that God is like this. There are three distinct persons, not one who acts like all three.”

Reply

Monotheist:

“If you say not no one who acts like all three(I.e takes on modes or exsist in all three which is a another form of Modalism) then that means their are three Gods since they are DISTINCT and share the same ESSENCE. Or God is made up of three parts, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit which nullifies God being the necessary existence. Or the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit make up a team called “God”. “

Reply 

Trinitarian:

“There is only one being of God but instead of being one person like you and I, he is three.”

“The trinity is both complex and easy to understand at the same time.”

“He doesn't have to be one being and one person like we want him to be.”

“don't believe that any human analogy quite fits to explain the Trinity (at least one that I know) because you veer off into some type of error, but we there are many examples of three being one.”

“So, each person is distinct from the others in their person-hood, but completely and equally God with the same character as the Father.”

“On the cross Jesus fully dies (although dying does not mean ceasing to exist).”

“The Father raises Jesus us by the power of the Spirit.  All three persons are at work”

Reply 

Monotheist:

‘There is only one being of God but instead of being one person like you and I, he is three.’

“That’s Modalism right their. You are shifting to Modalism without even realising it.”

‘The trinity is both complex and easy to understand at the same time.’

“Not its not easy to understand, it’s stupid and irrational and when you try to explain it you are not being consistent and are shifting between 4 heresies without even realising.”

‘He doesn't have to be one being and one person like we want him to be.’

“So you decide to limit God to your irrational finite mind and make Him take on modes.”

‘don't believe that any human analogy quite fits to explain the Trinity (at least one that I know) because you veer off into some type of error, but we there are many examples of three being one.’

“Because you either shift from God made up of three parts, Modalism, three Gods and 4 or and seperationism. 

And You are comparing God to His creation that’s blasphemy. I’ve shown clear verses God asking if anyone is like Him and God saying no one is like Him”

‘So, each person is distinct from the others in their person-hood, but completely and equally God with the same character as the Father.’

“Now we’re back to three Gods.”

‘On the cross Jesus fully dies (although dying does not mean ceasing to exist).’

“God does not die that’s a attribute that belongs to humans and animals, now you are shifting to the heresy of separationism.”

‘The Father raises Jesus us by the power of the Spirit.  All three persons are at work’

“You distinguished all three and claim to them to be equally God. Again we’re back to three gods.  picture that in your tiny mind, the Father is completely different to the Son and the Holy Spirit and likewise with the other two and they share the same essene, when you picture that in ur mind there are three DISTINCT persons who are Gods you are not imagining one person you are imaging 2 persons (obviously the third is God but He can’t be imagined since he is Transcendent). you arrogantly deny this.

the trinity has no basis and has been refuted and you definitely don’t worship the God of the OT, you worship a spirit who dwells in heaven whom you’d view to be triune.” (Trinitarian fantasies thread)

 

“Trinitarian:

“We do not believe in Three beings and three persons.  I am one being and only one person.  We believe God to be One being (Yahweh) and three persons of that being, all distinct and with different roles, but yet all completely Yahweh.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“you are a human that is your being, and in human terminology we refer to another human a “person”. When we are pointing  to another human we says “this person” instead of “this human”.

you are pretty such saying you believe in one what and three who’s.  That can be interpreted as three Gods or Modalism.”

Reply

Trinitarian:

“I am a person who has being.  You are a person who has being.  God is three persons who has one being.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“You are human who has a soul this defines your being. Comparing God to his creation is blasphemy. God is transcendent. Plus our bodies are vehicles when we die out spirit leaves our body. 

You are falling into the trap of Modalism”

—(Trinitarian Fantasies thread)

 

19 hours ago, Lane said:

) and the Holy Spirit is God (Psalm 139:7-12; 2 Corinthians 3:17).

Psalms 39:7

7Where shall I go from Your spirit, and where shall I flee from Your presence?

it says “Your spirit” not saying “where shall I go from the Holy spirit and even if it said “The holy spirit” it does not show any  divinity of the Holy spirit because you don’t know what is the Holy spirit. God doesn’t have a spirit rather He owns a spirits. 

Acts 1:

6Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes in you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

The holy spirit is seen as God’s power to strengthen which enables certain abilities to a person and makes a person reach a really high spiritual state from the get go.

Acts 2:

33Exalted to the right hand of God, he(Jesus) has received from the Father the promised holy spirit and has(Jesus) poured out what you now see and hear.

We can see the Holy spirit giving jesus abilities and strengthening him. 

Luke 1:

“35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come in you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you”

 Luke 1:

“Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Again we can see the Holy spirit being God’s gift to strengthen. 

“Trinitarians try to use  2 Corinthians 13:14 to try an show that the trinity existed in Paul’s epistle, let’s examine the verse...

14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing between Jesus Christ and the “love of God” and the Holy Spirit. 

Paul himself believed the holy spirit is a gift from God.

1 Thessalonians 4:8

...the very God who gives you His holy spirit.”

 

The question arises did Paul believe in a trinity or was he a dualist ?  

 1 Corinthians 8:6

“6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”

Paul makes it clear that “the Father” is God, not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. If Paul was a trinitarian he would say, “there is but one God, the Father  the Son The Holy Spirit,...” Paul calls God “the Father” the same way Prophet Ezra, Daniel Jeremiah called God “Allah”.

 

Ephesians 1:3

“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

Romans 15:6

6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus. 

Colossians 1:3

“3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” 

 

Philippians 2:5-7

5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

 

Now in verse 5 Paul is telling the people to have the same mindset as Jesus amongst each other then he continues on in verse by saying 6 “who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” and he go’s in verse 7 by pretty much saying jesus took on a form of a human. 

In verse 6 Paul says “Who being very nature God” over here Paul believes Jesus to be God(i.e divine) but then as we continue on in verse 6 Paul says “did not consider equality with God Almighty something to be used to his own advantage”  Now over here Paul is distinguishing Jesus from God Almighty but he also believes jesus was also a God beside(i.e next to) God but Jesus who is the second God manifested himself in a human form ,as verse 7 shows, so that he is no longer equal to God Almighty rather he is limited. 

Now this is obviously a heresy and dualism since Jesus is a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty, despite jesus manifesting himself in a human form because in nature he is a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty except he is a limited God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty. This is obviously not Monotheism at all and contradicts the Law and the prophets. So if the trinitarians try to use Paul’s epistles to show the trinity then they have to believe there are either two Gods or three Gods since Paul believes Jesus was a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty but he limited himself so he is no longer equal to God by not being like God Almighty.” —(Doctrine of the trinity refuted thread)

 

“Trinitarians say that God is a spirit, this teaching is from a pagan called tertullian. “Under the influence of Stoic philosophy, Tertullian believes that all real things are material. God is a spirit, but a spirit is a material thing made out of a finer sort of matter.” ‘History of Trinitarian doctrines, stanford Encyclopedia of philosophy’. He(Tertullian) believed that God is a spirit, this contradicts the Law and the prophets. The Law makes it clear that God is not a spirit and has no form, nor does God have a spirit like humans do. If God was a spirit(I.e an angelic figure) then he would be limited, since He will be no longer the All-seeing, nor omnipresent nor omnipotent and is no longer Transcendent since humans can see spirits(angels) and no longer unique since he is like a spirit which contradicts the Law. If God was a spirit like our spirit which we have, then He would be very limited aswell and also makes God like human beings which makes us gods going by tertullian’s pagan teaching since God is a spirit like our spirit which then contradicts the Law and the prophets.” —(Doctrine of the Trinity refuted thread) 

you should read, “Trinitarian fantasies” post, “Saul(Paul) refuted” post, “A refute to the deceivers”, and please read “Doctrine of the trinity” post  not just comment, I don’t have to go quoting parts for you when it answers all your questions and so the other posts I’ve mentioned.

 

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16 hours ago, placid said:

When the new creation came on earth, it was not by Almighty God, Yachid, but by more than one Personage, called Elohim.  --- However, we don’t have all the information so we accept what we know, and trust God to guide us in what He reveals.

Just mere wishful thinking. I hope you read my reply to Leslie P 

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Hi Lane,

Thank you for joining this discussion on the ‘trinity.’

My wife and I watch Ravi Zecharias every week and sometimes I watch his messages on YouTube. We are sorry for his recent death. We have seen the university debates, or ‘questions and answers,’ often with Abdu Murray, and we heard his description of the trinity, as you have written it.

--- When the Roman Emperor Constantine began to engage with the Christian leaders he agreed to stop the persecution of Christians with a compromise. There was the dispute between Arianism and the followers of Alexander. --- Since Constantine wanted harmony in his kingdom he proposes a new universal Church that would unify the factions and set doctrines that they could agree on. --- They formed the Roman Catholic (which means ‘universal’) Church. --- The one doctrine that was not completely accepted at first, but met in the middle was that “Jesus Christ was of the same substance as God.’

We will leave that where it is for now but the faulty doctrine which the Catholic Church promoted was considered a ‘mystery of God’ so they were to accept it and teach it. --- As it came down through the ages Christians adopted it and ‘we learned about it in our Churches, didn’t we'?

 

With all due respect to Mr Murray, he came into the same problem as others who have tried to define a trinity, but the problem is in the Names of God.

You see, Lane, what makes this subject hard to discuss seems to be a ‘prejudice’ problem, in that people are quite opinionated and not able to see any point of view but their own.

--- Kind of like the fellow who said to his friend, “Everybody has the wrong theology but you and me, and sometimes I wonder about you.”

 

I copied the following from online for some clarification of the names:

 Oneness in unity not in number: Yachid vs. Echad

"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4

Instead the Holy Spirit chose to use the Hebrew word, "echad" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh" it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut 6:4.

This is most troubling for Jews and Anti-Trinitarians since the word yachid, the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, is never used in reference to God.

Another quote from online:

‘As many never knew, at least I had never heard of the dispute. There is a battle for the definition of the trinity, and it is more heated than you may think. Is God “Yachid” or “Echad” in the original text. That truly is the battle. This fight originates with uncial Greek as well as Old Testament original writing. Greek is a very precise and complicated language, which you’d expect would make it easier to differentiate in the New Testament than it would be in the Hebrew, but that is just not the case, it’s almost the exact same. “Yachid” in the original text translates as “the only one,” or “the numerical one (1),” pretty much translates to solely, or only. “Echad is significantly different. As opposed to “Yachid” meaning “the only one,” --- “Echad” more closely means “one.” More like “that one” of a group. “Echad” implies that there is another, or one that is with, or united and unified.’

--- I don’t like to make posts too long, so I will give more info later, for you to examine. 

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1 hour ago, placid said:

 

Hi Lane,

Thank you for joining this discussion on the ‘trinity.’

My wife and I watch Ravi Zecharias every week and sometimes I watch his messages on YouTube. We are sorry for his recent death. We have seen the university debates, or ‘questions and answers,’ often with Abdu Murray, and we heard his description of the trinity, as you have written it.

--- When the Roman Emperor Constantine began to engage with the Christian leaders he agreed to stop the persecution of Christians with a compromise. There was the dispute between Arianism and the followers of Alexander. --- Since Constantine wanted harmony in his kingdom he proposes a new universal Church that would unify the factions and set doctrines that they could agree on. --- They formed the Roman Catholic (which means ‘universal’) Church. --- The one doctrine that was not completely accepted at first, but met in the middle was that “Jesus Christ was of the same substance as God.’

We will leave that where it is for now but the faulty doctrine which the Catholic Church promoted was considered a ‘mystery of God’ so they were to accept it and teach it. --- As it came down through the ages Christians adopted it and ‘we learned about it in our Churches, didn’t we'?

 

With all due respect to Mr Murray, he came into the same problem as others who have tried to define a trinity, but the problem is in the Names of God.

You see, Lane, what makes this subject hard to discuss seems to be a ‘prejudice’ problem, in that people are quite opinionated and not able to see any point of view but their own.

--- Kind of like the fellow who said to his friend, “Everybody has the wrong theology but you and me, and sometimes I wonder about you.”

 

I copied the following from online for some clarification of the names:

 Oneness in unity not in number: Yachid vs. Echad

"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [Echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4

Instead the Holy Spirit chose to use the Hebrew word, "echad" which is used most often as a unified one, and sometimes as numeric oneness. For example, when God said in Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one [echad] flesh" it is the same word for "one" that was used in Deut 6:4.

 

 

I always Refuted that rubbish argument. 

“one” in Hebrew is “Echad”: in order to understand weather “Echad” is used in a sense of complex unity or not, a person has to look at the context I’ve already shown that. Your argument is rubbish.

Deuteronomy 17:6 “By the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall the one liable to death be put to death; he shall not be put to death by the mouth of one(Echad) witness.” 

We don’t see Echad used in a complex Unity as your a trying to betray do we... No! It’s a absolute one and no other the context is clear.

 

Genesis 2:24 "the two shall become one(echad) flesh" 

Echad over here used as an expression of Unity not used in its actual meaning of absolute one and no other. 

Deuteronomy 19:15 “One(Echad) witness shall not rise up against any person for any iniquity or for any sin, regarding any sin that he will sin. By the mouth of two witnesses, or by the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be confirmed.”

Again over here “Echad” is being used in its actual meaning not an expression of complex unity. 

So Deuteronomy 6:4 when it says, “Shema Yisreol ADONAI eloheinu ADONAI Echad” it’s using Echad in its actual meaning. It does not show any expression of complex unity. The context is clear. 

The reason why In Genesis 2:24 “Echad” is seen as an expression of complex unity is due to its context which Echad is used as a means of expression of unity.

Quote from you— 

“Response: A scholar of the Hebrew language said that ‘echad’ means ‘one.’ --- As you say it is used for both singular and plural, but it depends on the context and the sense in which it is used.” 

You admit to my refute yet you’re contradicting yourself and not being consistent with ur pagan doctrine at first you believe Jesus is god beside God (which is dualism) then you distinguish “Christ” (who is seen as a god beside God which is still dualism) from Jesus who is seen as a mere man and Christ came into Jesus.

 @Lane don’t waste your time with placid. His just gonna go off topic and waste your time. 

Edited by THREE1THREE

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Hi Lane and others,

What I quoted from online is accurate and shows the two words in question.

The concluding line of the first quote said:  “This is most troubling for Jews and Anti-Trinitarians since the word yachid, the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, is never used in reference to God.”

 

Response: --- However, this is more troubling for Trinitarians because they try to incorporate our ONE GOD (Yachid) with their concept of three.

To understand the names and positions, we can make a diagram that explains the relationship.

--- Cut a piece of stiff paper three or four inches square. --- With a ruler and pencil mark across the center both ways. --- Fold the paper over and crease it both ways on the lines across the center. Take a scissors and cut from one corner to the center. --- Overlap two sides and glue or paste. --- You will now have a three cornered shape with the center raised.

--- On the raised center you can write or initial ALMIGHTY GOD (Yachid).

 

This is what Muslims believe, is it not, that there is ONE GOD? --- And this is the right understanding, but ALMIGHTY GOD is remote from us, we can\t attain unto Him.

--- And the three corners are identified in 1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.”

ALMIGHTY GOD is Sovereign, Transcendent, Omnipotent (all powerful), Omniscient (all knowing), Omnipresent (ever present through His Holy Spirit), Self existent, and Self sufficient.

 

ALMIGHTY GOD has attributes and abilities to create and sustain His creation by populating it with 'orders of angels' and those He commissions to representing Himself as ‘God’ in His creation.

--- The figure of “The Father” is a personable God we know as Jehovah, a heavenly Father, who can relate to mankind with names in the Scriptures like Jehovah-Jireh (Jehovah will provide); Jehovah-Shalom (Jehovah is peace);  Jehovah –Tsidkenu (Jehovah is our righteousness).

--- “The Word” (Logos) 'through whom all things were made' --- that pertain to our world. John 1:1-3.

Also in John 1:1 it says “The Word was God” (which I will explain later.)

--- And “The Holy Spirit,” the Spirit of God, --- but then, as God multiplied His creation, He also multiplied angels, they became the 'servants of God' as the ‘eyes and ears’ who monitored God’s creation as it expanded, even down to us, as it says in Hebrews 1:13   But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?

14 Are they (the angels) not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? --- (Angels are with us as protecting angels, and recording angels.)

Surah 50:16 “It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

17. Behold, two (guardian angels) appointed to learn (his doings) learn (and noted them), one sitting on the right and one on the left.

18. Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).

--- So we have a diagram to look at and consider, to see if this does not identify ALMIGHTY GOD as above all. --- And His organization on earth, under His angels and those He has chosen and commissioned.

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27 minutes ago, placid said:

John 1:1-3.

Also in John 1:1 it says “The Word was God” (which I will explain later.)

 

I’ve already refuted your arguments on these terribly misinterpreted verses.

 

28 minutes ago, placid said:

And “The Holy Spirit,” the Spirit of God

The spirit of God and the holy spirit are completely different. You have zero knowledge on monotheism and on these two touchy subjects.

Arianism(dualism) is not Unitarianism. Islam and Judaism have pure Unitarian theology. 

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30 minutes ago, placid said:

The concluding line of the first quote said:  “This is most troubling for Jews and Anti-Trinitarians since the word yachid, the main Hebrew word for solitary oneness, is never used in reference to God.”

I’ve already shown “Echad” shows solitary Oneness in Deuteronomy 6:4. 

Yet you deny it arrogantly. 

“The Lord He is God; there is none other besides Him” -Deuteronomy 4:35

“The Lord He is God; in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other” -Deuteronomy 4:39 

“See now that I, I am He, And there is no God besides me” -Deuteronomy 32:39

1 Chronicles 17:20 “O Lord, there is none like You, and there is no god beside You according to all that we have heard with our ears.”

“You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth” -2Kings 19:15

“You are great, O Lord God; for there is non like You, Nor there is any God beside You” -2 Samuel 7:22

“ I am the Lord, and there is no other; Beside me there is no God” Isaiah 45:5 

“Surely God is with you and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14

“Is it not I, The Lord? And there is No other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior,There is none except Me” Isaiah 45:21

“I am God, and there’s no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9

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2 hours ago, placid said:

the ‘eyes and ears’

God is all-hearing and All-seeing and is everywhere.  The angels are just fulfilling their own laws which God prescribed for them, Allah is too Great to carry out such jobs thus He appoints angels to carry out certain jobs. 

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