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In the Name of God بسم الله

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@THREE1THREE   The book of Daniel is like Ester, Ruth and others: They are not religious boooks like lsaiah -(عليه السلام)., Jeremiah -(عليه السلام). and all, but popular religious literature. lf you read who-is-who in Daniel the characters are a couple of hundred years apart, and as l remember off-hand and posted somewhere on S.C, the closest characters were born 82 years apart.

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3 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

The Babylonian Jews didn’t have Paul’s beliefs it was the Hellenistic Jews that did.

Paul was making such claims but even rabbi’s expose him, Paul the imposter wasn’t taught by Gamiel. 

Read: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saint-Paul-the-Apostle

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I want to follow my above post with a little explanation.

I worked for 25 years at a Christian Rescue Mission and we would get all kinds of donations of food, clothing, furniture, books, etc, which was how the Mission fed and provided for the homeless, and served the community in which it was located. --- One day in sorting books, I found a Quran. Mr Pickthall’s translation with a long introduction of the history of Muhammad and the Muslim journey to faith, as well as a description at the beginning of each Surah. --- I put it on my bookshelf, thinking that someday I would read it.

With the attack on the twin towers in New York which we know as 9/11, September 11, 2001, the sentiment turned against Muslims, because of the actions of a few. --- What chaos Satan caused at that time. --- It was after that, when hatred was displayed on both sides that I began to read the Quran and study Muhammad and what Islam had become.

I was pleasantly surprised by the familiar passages from the Gospels that I found in the Quran, but was disappointed that Muslims seemed to use the negatives from the book. --- Christians in the same way are not well informed of what the Bible teaches, so there was a widening gap between believing Christians and the more worldly voice for ‘vengeance,’ as there always seems to be, over one thing or another, --- even as it is today.

I joined Shiachat in 2005 and learned more, while dialoguing and presenting the Biblical truths from the Scriptures on Abraham, Moses, the Prophets, and Jesus Christ. I continued regularly until 2015, at which time I went on to further studies, as the Lord led me.

--- I would like to say that the world is again a different place than it was five years ago, and it has not been for the better.

So the age old questions are, “Why are we here?” --- “Is there any recovery for the world?” --- “Is there a way to get off of it?”

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When I read the Quran, I was fascinated with Surah 5:48 which outlines God’s plan for His people among the Jews, Christians, and Muslims.

48. To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

--- This is a profound Scripture that speaks definitely from God in saying ‘We’ --- so I studied it as I study the other Scriptures. --- And we can see what it says:

'To thee [O Muhammad] We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.'

‘To you Muhammad We sent the Scriptures in truth.’ --- When a statement from God is coupled with the word ‘truth’ we can believe it. --- In fact we must believe it because, what He says after that depends on us believing that God is true, therefore, His word is the truth.

‘Confirming the Scripture that came before it.’ --- While the OT was written over hundreds of years and was used as the Guidebook for the Jews, with the Ten Commandments which are still the moral standard for us, God is referring to the whole book, because God ‘inspired’ the writers by His Spirit, and can inspire the readers who have understanding.

‘And guarding it in safety.’ --- Is God able to preserve His word? --- They have found Scrolls or fragments of every book of the OT except Esther, in the “Dead Sea Scrolls,” that were hidden in caves beside the Dead Sea, before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. --- They were discovered about 1950. --- Since then they have been studied and are a great proof and confirmation of the OT and the Jewish history.

Before 600 BC the Jews had failed to follow God’s commandments. --- Rather than the Jews being God’s voice to the nations around them to bring them to God, the Jews were led away into idolatry after the heathen nations.

 --- A number of years before the Babylonian Captivity, God prophesied through Jeremiah in 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” 

--- This speaks of the New Covenant or Testament, where God would give His Holy Spirit to 'indwell' the individuals. --- In the writing of the NT, it was as Peter said in 2 Peter 1:20  “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, 21 for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved (or inspired) by the Holy Spirit.”

The New Covenant was prophesied in the OT and fulfilled in the NT, and God ‘confirmed the writing’ as the writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit. --- Therefore, it is the truth that was preserved, so we do well to believe it.

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3 minutes ago, placid said:

And guarding it in safety.’

Twisting after twisting, go study Arabic and read the other verses I quoted both Jews and Christians forgot a portion of the truth and have only a portion of the truth. I don’t have to go digging to show some of the corrupted parts when I I’ve  showed some.  The Quran came to confirm the truth contained in the gospel and Tanakh and the Quran is a measuring rod over them regarding the truth. Go read my previous comments I don’t have to repeat myself. 

I’ve already exposed your arrogance and again again no different to the trinitarians. 

9 minutes ago, placid said:

God is referring to the whole book,

He referring to the Torah and Gospel.

the “Tanakh” was made by the Jews do make things easier for them. The word “Tanakh” stems from “Torah Navim Kutvim” the Tanakh is called “Tanakh” because of that, it’s composed of three parts the Torah Navim and Kutvim. 

I’ve already showed the Torah being corrupted go read my previous comments.

the Quran makes it clear that the Jews and the Christians have only a portion of God’s scripture not full which I’ve shown.

you can cherry pick all you want but you can’t hide the other verses and you can’t misinterpret the verses we are talking about to suit your pagan Hellenistic beliefs. It’s either the you become a radical monotheist or leave the religion. I’ve come with crystal clear arguments which you deliberately and staunchly arrogantly overlook. 

17 minutes ago, placid said:

says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” 

Yous are all whores going by that, yous neglected the Law and took Paul the imposter.

read Mathew 5:17,19-20

Matthew 7:24-27

john 15:10

Deuteronomy 30:

“8And you will return and listen to the voice of the Lord, and fulfill all His commandments, which I command you this day.

9And the Lord, your God, will make you abundant for good in all the work of your hands, in the fruit of your womb, in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your soil. For the Lord will once again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your forefathers,

10when you obey the Lord, your God, to observe His commandments and His statutes written in this Torah scroll, [and] when you return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

11For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away.

12It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"

13Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"

14Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.

15Behold, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil,

16inasmuch as I command you this day to love the Lord, your God, to walk in His ways, and to observe His commandments, His statutes, and His ordinances, so that you will live and increase, and the Lord, your God, will bless you in the land to which you are coming to take possession of it.

17But if your heart deviates and you do not listen, and YOU WILL BE DRAWN ASTRAY, and YOU WILL prostrate yourself to other DEITIES and SERVE them,

18I declare to you this day, that you will surely perish, and that you will not live long days on the land, to which you are crossing the Jordan, to come and take possession thereof.

19This day, I call upon the heaven and the earth as witnesses [that I have warned] you: I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. You shall choose life, so that you and your offspring will live;”

Deuteronomy 13:1

“1Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.”

Matthew 15:

 

 

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To continue with Surah 5:48

48 To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: --- ‘so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed,’ --- ‘and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee.’

‘So judge between them by what Allah hath revealed,’ --- in the Scriptures of truth, and from your own revelations of truth.

--- And the next part relates back to some former verses:

‘And follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee.’

(I read this in their history.) The Jews that lived in the area of Medinah believed from their writings that one day God would send a leader among the ungodly idolatrous people of the land, and when Muhammad was teaching in Mecca, that ‘there was only One God,’ the Jews sent a delegation to listen to his message. They brought back a good report, and in due time they invited Muhammad and those with him to come to Medinah.

--- (Some of you may have other accounts of this part of history, but this is what I read.) --- The plan was that the Jews would have someone who could relate to the locals and at the same time be ‘under their umbrella.’ --- After they discovered that Muhammad was teaching the ‘brotherhood of man, in subjection to God,’ and that the lowliest could be accepted by God and be as eligible for heaven, as the highest, who would bow their knee and believe. --- This would put the lowly Muslim on the same level with God, as the Jews. --- From that time on the Jews rejected Muhammad’s teaching and tried to frustrate his ministry, as well as to persecute his followers. --- (Again, this is how I learned it.) --- So God instructs Muhammad in how to deal with them.

 

41. O Messenger. let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" --- If any one's trial is intended by Allah, thou hast no authority in the least for him against Allah. For such - it is not Allah’s will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.

42. (They are fond of) listening to falsehood, of devouring anything forbidden (that they hear). If they do come to thee, either judge between them, or decline to interfere. If thou decline, they cannot hurt thee in the least. If thou judge, judge in equity between them. For Allah loveth those who judge in equity.

--- Muhammad was wanting to accommodate everyone by answering their questions and judging their cases, but God said, ‘Choose whether to judge their case, or decline.’ --- ‘If you decline they can do nothing. --- If you judge them be sure it is in equity, in justice or fairness, so they have no recourse. --- But next God revealed something else.

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7 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

Does not belong to peter but a Pauline follower. 

According to my textbook edition (Douay), 2Peter is similar to Juda and both are "disputed books" Jude for the early church (source Eusebius) and 2Peter among the Protestants.

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8 hours ago, placid said:

And the next part relates back to some former verses:

‘And follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee.’

You are taking the verse out of context read the verses before it. And that historical “context” that you are using is not related these verses I’m quoting at all. And btw not accepting any of that from you without references and authenticity.

 

5:43

“But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.”

surah 4:44

“Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which WAS(past tense) guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted OF THE( a portion. See Jeremiah 8:8)  Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.”

Surah 5:45

“And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.”

Surah 5:46

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him IN THE Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which WAS(past tense)  guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it OF(a portion) THE Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.”

Surah 5:47

“And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.”

Surah 5:48

And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth(I.e Quran), confirming that which preceded it OF(a portion) THE Scripture AND as a CRITERION( judge) over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

 

“So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth.”

the Jews and Christians were not judging by God’s laws which are their and the truth and Allah is telling Muhammad not to fall for their arguments because it’s not actually from Allah it’s corrupte and to judge them according to the truth now in order for Muhammad to know the truth contained in the Gosepl and Torah he had use the Quran as a criteria(measuring rod) OVER them as the Quran clear says to distinguish truth from falsehood that’s is contained within them and that will give Muhammad a portion of the truth in the Torah and Gospel. Hence why it says to Muhammad, “...do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you OF THE truth.”

 

next time dont take a verse out of context and try to mix a historical context with a another verse. 

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9 hours ago, hasanhh said:

According to my textbook edition (Douay), 2Peter is similar to Juda and both are "disputed books" Jude for the early church (source Eusebius) and 2Peter among the Protestants.

I recall the Peshetta not including 2peter and the others except 1peter. You are right on that. I haven’t checked on jude yet but I guess it was disputed because he quotes from other previous books I.e book of Enoch. But definitely the author of all epistles that are attributed to peter are not peters rather it was a Pauline follower who wrote these and attributed them in hopes to spread the Pauline teachings much easier and get people to believe that the is what supposedly the 12 disciples taugh. 

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This is a debate between  Hisham ibn Hakam (رضي الله عنه)  the student of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) & Bariheh the most knowledgeable christian Catholicos of  time of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) that was searching  of truth which everyone  even greatest sunni scholars of his time  defeated by Bariheh that started his debate with Hisham ibn Hakam (رضي الله عنه) about relationship between  prophet  Muhammad  (pbu)  & prophet  Isa (عليه السلام) [Jesus] that Hisham ibn Hakam (رضي الله عنه) explained  it fom christian viewpoint 

Hisham said very well. They said that Jesus is ancient from ancient . Which of the following is a father and which one is a son? Bariheh: The one who came to earth is a son, and the son of the Prophet is from his father. Hisham: The father has more status than the son because creation is from the father. Bariheh: Creation is the creation of the father and creation of the son. Hisham: What's wrong that both of them coming down as if they were created it together? Bariheh : how they are patners although they are one thing Hisham: So they have a common name. Bariheh: This is out of ignorance. Hisham: Incidentally, this is true. Bariheh: The son is attached to the father. Hisham: On the contrary, the son is separate from the father. Bariheh: Being apart is unusual for people. Hisham: If we usually see people as evidence and reason for our claim, I have defeated you in this debate, because it is clear to the people that there is a father, before the son, do you accept this habit? Bariheh: No, I don't accept that. Hisham: So why do you usually ask testifying of people if you don't accept them? Bariheh: Father and son are two names in ancient power. Hisham: Both are ancient names, like father and son. Bariheh: No, names are happened (muhaddith ) and created. Hisham: If these names were created by  son, you have called the father the son (because he is the Creator of the names and the son created the father, but if the father created these names, then he is the father and the son is the father so there is no father and son . Bariheh: The son is the name of the soul when he descends on the earth. Hisham: What is the name of the son when he does not come to earth? . Bariheh: his name is son either descends  or not .Hisham so before descending of this soul both of them  are one thing  or their name is two things Bariheh : he is soul  Hisham: do you accept that some of it is son's soul and a part of it is from father. Barieh: No, because the name of father and son is related to one thing. Hisham :So son of the father is father and father of father is the son then in conclusion the father and the son are one.....

then Hisham said then I ask you a question about Christanity

Hisham said, "Do you think the son knows everything that the father knows?" He said, "Yes." He asked, "Does the father know what the son knows?" He said, "Yes.again Hisham asked " Does the son is capable of doing to everything that father  is capable of it? He said yes. now say does everything that son is capable of doing it then father is capable of doing it too ? He said yes. Hisham said, "What kind of unit is this that one is the son of another, but both are equal, and how can one not oppress the other?" Bariheh  said in response  that they ar not doing injustice  Hisham said so it deserves that be the son of the father will be the father and the father of the son will be the son now go and think about it tonight.

 

then Hisham said then I ask you a question about Christanity

Hisham said, "Do you think the son knows everything that the father knows?" He said, "Yes." He asked, "Does the father know what the son knows?" He said, "Yes.again Hisham asked " Does the son is capable of doing to everything that father  is capable of it? He said yes. now say does everything that son is capable of doing it then father is capable of doing it too ? He said yes. Hisham said, "What kind of unit is this that one is the son of another, but both are equal, and how can one not oppress the other?" Bariheh  said in response  that they ar not doing injustice  Hisham said so it deserves that be the son of the father will be the father and the father of the son will be the son now go and think about it tonight.

p.s : at the end Bariheh  accepted the truth & became a shia muslim by Imam Kadhim (عليه السلام) when Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) was alive & when he died at time of Imamate  of Imam Kadhim then Imam said he was one of my apostles from of apostles  of prophet Isa (عليه السلام) [Jesus] that was knowing the truth (he was knwing right of Allah / God on himself ) then Imam buried him with his hands .

بحارالأنوار (جلد ۹و۱۰) / ترجمه خسروی ;  ج ۲  ص ۲۲۸

Bihar an Anwar (v 9 & v10 p 234) translation of Khusravi (Farsi) v2 p 228

Towhid , Saduq v1 p 270

https://hadith.inoor.ir/fa/hadith/226041/translate/ولد اسحاق

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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To continue on what was revealed to Muhammad in Surah 5:48

5:43 asks the question about the Jews. Why did they come to Muhammad for decisions anyway?  Was it for the same reasons the Pharisees went to Jesus years before and asks questions to try and catch Him in His words, to falsely accuse Him of breaking some Commandment.

 

43. But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them? therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.

--- Aha, even after they got an answer, they would turn away. ---Because, “They have their own law.” --- They proved they were not genuine, that they were not people of faith.

 

44. It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was ‘guidance and light.’ By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed to Allah’s will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law:

--- The Jews were given the law through Moses and they often memorized it to be careful to observe it. --- It was their ‘Guidance and Light.’

‘For to them was entrusted the protection of Allah’s book, and they were witnesses thereto:

--- They were entrusted with the word of God. Jews were very diligent about keeping records and copying the scrolls. It was said that if a scribe copied a scroll in the Hebrew letters, when he was done he would count the letters. If he had missed one or made a mistake, he would have to throw the whole thing out and start again.

‘Therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.’

--- The Jews were entrusted with the protection and preservation of the Law, if they failed to do that they showed their lack of reverence for God.

 

45. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal."

--- This was written in the law as this was a strict equal for equal society, in order to keep the people honorable with their friends and neighbors. (That was for the Jews at that time, but Jesus changed that law that had run its course as soon as the Jews became dishonorable to God and started using the laws for dominating others.  Matthew 5:38-42.)

‘But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself.’

--- Jesus said, ‘turn the other cheek,’ --- to accept wrong for the sake of God’s love and mercy. --- When one suffers wrongly on earth and takes it patiently, without retaliation, it is applied to their 'atonement.' This was the teaching of Jesus for Christians, and those who honored God, and loved their neighbors as themselves. --- Jesus said in Matthew 5:11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.  Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for 'great is your reward in heaven,' for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

‘And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) wrong-doers.’

--- Again the warning. If any fail to judge by the ‘Guidance and Light’ that God revealed to them, they are as unbelievers or wrong doers. --- So this applies to us all, if we fail to live by the ‘guidance and light’ given to us, we are as unbelievers.

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12 minutes ago, placid said:

5:43 asks the question about the Jews. Why did they come to Muhammad for decisions anyway?  Was it for the same reasons the Pharisees went to Jesus years before and asks questions to try and catch Him in His words, to falsely accuse Him of breaking some Commandment.

No your wrong again taking verse out of context. Why do the jews come to muhammad for judgement if they dont believe him to be a prophet of God and have God’s judgement in then Torah??! Yet they come to muhammad for judge. This shows the Jews were avoiding God’s judgement. Allah exposed these particular Jews by showing that truly they are deviant.

Surah 5:50

“Then is it the judgement of [the time of] ignorance they desire? But who is better than Allah in judgement for a people who are certain [in faith].”

19 minutes ago, placid said:

Matthew 5:38-42.)

If Already shown how illogical that part is. And you run away dodging it, if some rapes ur daughter will you let him rape ur other daughter or beat him up? 

23 minutes ago, placid said:

it is applied to their 'atonement.

No basis.

 

23 minutes ago, placid said:

Matthew 5:11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.  Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for 'great is your reward in heaven,' for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."

If has nothing to do with what we’re talking about. 

 

25 minutes ago, placid said:

Aha, even after they got an answer, they would turn away.

Muhammad gave them the answer from the Torah it is a well narrated event. 

So this nullifies your deliberate misinterpretion of surah 5:48 and proves my argument; It says Criteria. For arguments sakes if it says 

21 hours ago, placid said:

We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety.'

Notice their is coma between “we sent the scripture in truth” and “guarding it in safety”  going by your faulty interpretation it’s pretty much saying “guarding it(the Quran) In safety” 

heres the transliteration 

WaAnzalna ilayka alkitaba bilhaqqimusaddiqan lima bayna yadayhi mina alkitabiWamuhayminan AAalayhi fahkum baynahum bimaAnzala Allahu...

“And We have revealed to you the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it from/in the scripture and as a CRITERION over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed...”

notice its says “from the scripture” or “in the scripture” if the Quran came to confirm the previous scriptures as it is it would say “And We have revealed to you, the Book in truth, confirming the scripture that preceded it.” But that is not the case. 

It say “Min” “from/in” the scripture. Which shows that the Quran come to comfrirm the Truth contained in the previous scriptures. And nowhere does it say “guarding it in truth” 

such mistranslations happen in the sunni world they also misinterpret the verse of ablution it’s no surprise 

I don’t know how clear I can get. As imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) says the moment you argue with an arrogant person you have already lost.

Jeremiah 8:8 says the Torah of Yahweh has been tampered with.

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To continue in verses that lead up to Surah 5:48:

46. And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him:

--- In the footsteps of the Prophets who followed the law of Moses. We (God) sent Jesus, the son of Mary, --- ‘confirming the Law of Moses,’ that came before Him (Jesus.)

‘We sent him the Gospel: therein was Guidance and Light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him:

--- Again the same words for the Gospel, as for the law of Moses, given to the Jews, ‘Guidance and Light,’ --- and again, a “Confirmation” of the Law. --- So this confirms that the Torah and the Gospels are true, or God could not say they were ‘confirmed’ as true.

 ‘a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.’ --- ‘Admonition’ means: caution, serious instruction to ‘listen and heed.’ 

 

47. Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

‘Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein.”

---Can it be written any more plainly? --- Again let the Christians live and judge by what is written in the Gospel, that was given to Jesus.

‘If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

--- Again the warning, --- If any fail to believe and act on the teaching of the Gospel, they are as unbelievers who rebel against God.

The division is plainly drawn for Christians, they either accept and believe the Gospel and let their ‘light shine,’ or they still walk in darkness.

Jesus said in Matthew 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 

15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

 

And we come to the end of verse 48: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee.

--- To each among you have We prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God. it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

‘To each among you have We prescribed a law and an open way.

--- Does that not mean that to each, --- the Jews, Christians, and Muslims, --- God has prescribed ‘laws’ to follow, and an open ‘way’ to follow, which is according to the ‘Guidance and Light’ given to each one?

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21 minutes ago, placid said:

Can it be written any more plainly? --- Again let the Christians live and judge by what is written in the Gospel, that was given to Jesus.

Go read my previous comments you must be blind, you are constantly taking verses out of context. 

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25 minutes ago, placid said:

If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

 

Don’t add ur rubbish fantasies to the verses. 

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2 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

Don’t add ur rubbish fantasies to the verses. 

Placid use a not-so-good translation of Quran. Yusef Ali's, Sura Maida Ayat 47

Better: "are wrong-doers" rather than "rebel".

Cf for similar pronouncements revealed at Ayats 43 and 45.

Admit and apologize, Bro. Quran is not "rubbish" even when not properly quoted.

 

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--- Does that not mean that to each, --- the Jews, Christians, and Muslims, --- God has prescribed ‘laws’ to follow, and an open ‘way’ to follow, which is according to the ‘Guidance and Light’ given to each one?

Yes. Because God is testing all of us our faith and our sincerity worship Him alone and sincerity following His laws by our capacity of understanding the truth.

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Note: --- While you may object to a translation because of one word difference, or the choice of words to express a word in Arabic., the Yusuf Ali and the Pickthall are highly rated among English versions.

But can I ask what version you suggest?  

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The last part of Surah 5:48

Yusuf Ali --- To each among you have We prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God. It is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Mr Pickthall’s translation: ---   For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

‘For each We (God) have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way.

--- So here is where we need to have some explanation. --- What was the Divine Law for the Jews? --- The Divine Law for the Christians? --- The Divine Law for the Muslims?

--- And what was the ‘traced out way’ for the Jews? --- The ‘traced out way’ for the Christians? --- The ‘traced out way’ for the Muslims?

As I said before, “We didn’t ask to be born,” yet we are in the world and need to understand what we can do about it, from our position.

--- I gave the picture before of the Ancient of Days in heaven where it says, “A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.”

The angels were happy around the throne, and in the last line of verse 48 Yusuf Ali says, “The goal of you all is to God.” --- Pickthall says, “Unto Allah ye will all return.”

--- But our question is “Will we return because our ‘name is written in the book’? --- Or will we be rejected because we are part of a sinful society that is separated from God? --- What are our options? --- Let's start with the Jews.

We know that the Jews were ‘the people that God chose’ to be His ambassadors to the nations around them,’ and God began with Abraham. God said in Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, from your family and from your father’s house, to a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

So Abraham is our Patriarch. ---

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1 hour ago, placid said:

The last part of Surah 5:48

Yusuf Ali --- To each among you have We prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God. It is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Mr Pickthall’s translation: ---   For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

‘For each We (God) have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way.

--- So here is where we need to have some explanation. --- What was the Divine Law for the Jews? --- The Divine Law for the Christians? --- The Divine Law for the Muslims?

--- And what was the ‘traced out way’ for the Jews? --- The ‘traced out way’ for the Christians? --- The ‘traced out way’ for the Muslims?

As I said before, “We didn’t ask to be born,” yet we are in the world and need to understand what we can do about it, from our position.

--- I gave the picture before of the Ancient of Days in heaven where it says, “A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.”

The angels were happy around the throne, and in the last line of verse 48 Yusuf Ali says, “The goal of you all is to God.” --- Pickthall says, “Unto Allah ye will all return.”

--- But our question is “Will we return because our ‘name is written in the book’? --- Or will we be rejected because we are part of a sinful society that is separated from God? --- What are our options? --- Let's start with the Jews.

We know that the Jews were ‘the people that God chose’ to be His ambassadors to the nations around them,’ and God began with Abraham. God said in Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: “Get out of your country, from your family and from your father’s house, to a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who curses you; and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

So Abraham is our Patriarch. ---

See “A refute to the deceivers” thread. It makes things crystal clear regarding the verses your taking out of context. 

You are running away from my arguments to the Quran and altering a passsgss after i have come with clear arguments refuting ur pagan beliefs. Typical Pauline.

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1 hour ago, placid said:

gave the picture before of the Ancient of Days in heaven where it says, “A thousand thousands ministered to Him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.”

2 chronicles 2:5 -Tanakh 2 Chronicles 6:18-Tanakh chadbad. 

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1 hour ago, placid said:

Note: --- While you may object to a translation because of one word difference, or the choice of words to

.                                                                                                                                         cited

express a word in Arabic., the Yusuf Ali and the Pickthall are highly rat^d among English versions.

But can I ask what version you suggest?  

Corrected.

Yusef Ali and supplementarily Picktall are highly cited as Ali's having been published in the 1930s. Cairo's translation isn't much better but they deliberately chose the the most obscure words; as you need a very thick Oxford dictionary to read it.

Ali;s translation is 'weak' and he used, inappropriately, many KJV words and, somewhat, phrasing.

You can see this by selecting a few ayats at searchtruth.com and compare; and you get the lexicographical usage at corpus.quran.com. lf you still have 'trouble' you can always ask Cool.

Since Arabie is not a Romance or Germanic Language many translated words have implied meanigs.

@Cool -critique this, Please.

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To continue with Abraham, as the Patriarch of the Jews, as well as the Father of our religions. 

Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. --- Isaac had two sons, Esau and Jacob. --- It was to Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, that the twelve sons were born who were later named ‘the twelve tribes of Israel.’

There was jealousy among the brothers because Jacob favored his young son Joseph above his older brothers, so when he came to see them in the field, they put him in a pit and planned to do away with him. --- But at that time this happened in Genesis 37:18 Now when they saw him afar off, even before he came near them, they conspired against him to kill him. 19 Then they said to one another, “Look, this dreamer is coming! 20 Come therefore, let us now kill him and cast him into some pit; and we shall say, ‘Some wild beast has devoured him.’ We shall see what will become of his dreams!”

21 But Reuben heard it, and he delivered him out of their hands, and said, “Let us not kill him.” 22 And Reuben said to them, “Shed no blood, but cast him into this pit which is in the wilderness, and do not lay a hand on him”—that he might deliver him out of their hands, and bring him back to his father.

23 So it came to pass, when Joseph had come to his brothers, that they stripped Joseph of his tunic, the tunic of many colors that was on him. 24 Then they took him and cast him into a pit. And the pit was empty; there was no water in it.

25 And they sat down to eat a meal. Then they lifted their eyes and looked, and there was a company of Ishmaelites, coming from Gilead with their camels, bearing spices, balm, and myrrh, on their way to carry them down to Egypt. 26 So Judah said to his brothers, “What profit is there if we kill our brother and conceal his blood? 27 Come and let us sell him to the Ishmaelites, and let not our hand be upon him, for he is our brother and our flesh.” And his brothers listened. 28 Then Midianite traders passed by; so the brothers pulled Joseph up and lifted him out of the pit, and sold him to the Ishmaelites for twenty shekels of silver. And they took Joseph to Egypt.

--- They sold Joseph as a slave and he was falsely accused by his master in Egypt, and was put in prison. --- The Pharaoh dreamed dreams and Joseph interpreted them to mean there would be good years in Egypt and then years of famine, so they should store up in the good years, for the famine ahead. --- The Pharaoh put Joseph in charge, and during the famine years the brothers came to Egypt to buy grain. They didn’t recognize him so he played with them a little, and then invited their families and Father Jacob to come to Egypt, which was really what saved the Jews, and they remained there some 400 years. The story continues from chapters 37 to 50 in Genesis, until after Father Jacob died. Then the brothers worried that Joseph would take vengeance on them for their crime to him, as he was the Governor, next to the Pharaoh.

But in Genesis 50:19  Joseph said to them, “Do not be afraid, 20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive. 21 Now therefore, do not be afraid; I will provide for you and your little ones.” And he comforted them and spoke kindly to them.  

--- A great story to read, leading up to the calling of Moses to lead the twelve tribes back to the land of Israel.

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We are quite well acquainted with the long journey of Moses, --- and following him was Joshua, but if we look we can find out what caused the Jews to fail?

--- God had promised to Abraham in Genesis 12:2 “I will make you a great nation; I will bless you and make your name great; and you shall be a blessing.
3 And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Later God increased His promise to Abraham in Genesis 22:17 “Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.”

Genesis 26:4 “And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed.”

While the Jews multiplied greatly they were unfaithful and were defeated in battles and taken into captivity, where they were dispersed among the nations. --- So Judaism, or the Jewish Religion did not become the ‘leader’ among the nations that God had planned it to be.

--- If they had been faithful and multiplied as the ‘stars of heaven,’ then we would all be adhering to Judaism as it said in Surah 5:48 “If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people.”

--- As it says in Hebrews 8:7 “ For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.”

--- But they failed to be the leading people of God. --- Jeremiah prophesied in 31:31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.” 

--- So the Jews broke the covenant and were into idolatry like an unfaithful partner, so God had to ‘separate’ Himself from them.

In Isaiah 48, it speaks of God’s ‘new covenant,’ which is the second half of the prophecy in Jeremiah 31:33 “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

The LORD of hosts is speaking in Isaiah 48:16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. And now the Lord God and His Spirit Have sent Me.”

17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.
18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
19 Your descendants also would have been like the sand, And the offspring of your body like the grains of sand; His name (Jacob/Israel) would not have been cut off nor destroyed from before Me.”

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To continue with the failure of the Jews:

Repeating the above verses: Isaiah 48:17 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.
18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
19 Your descendants also would have been like the sand, And the offspring of your body like the grains of sand; His name (Jacob/Israel) would not have been cut off Nor destroyed from before Me.”

--- The Jews had failed to follow and serve the Lord, which would have given them the blessing that God promised to the descendants of Abraham, --- so God had to withdraw from them, and withhold the blessing He had planned for the Jews, as His Chosen People.

 

--- What really showed that the Jews had failed to trust God, is written in the last book of the OT, Malachi 1:6 “A son honors his father, And a servant his master. If then I am the Father, Where is My honor? And if I am a Master, Where is My reverence?” Says the Lord of hosts To you priests who despise My name. Yet you say, ‘In what way have we despised Your name?’

7 “You offer defiled food on My altar, But say, ‘In what way have we defiled You?’ By saying, ‘The table of the Lord is contemptible.’
8 And when you offer the blind as a sacrifice, Is it not evil? And when you offer the lame and sick, Is it not evil? Offer it then to your governor! Would he be pleased with you? Would he accept you favorably?” Says the Lord of hosts.

12 “But you profane it, In that you say, ‘The table of the Lord is defiled; And its fruit, its food, is contemptible.’
13 You also say, ‘Oh, what a weariness!’ And you sneer at it,” Says the Lord of hosts. “And you bring the stolen, the lame, and the sick; Thus you bring an offering! Should I accept this from your hand?” Says the Lord.
14 “But cursed be the deceiver Who has in his flock a male, And takes a vow (to give it as an offering), but sacrifices to the Lord what is blemished—

Malachi 2:7 “For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge, And people should seek the law from his mouth; For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.
8 But you have departed from the way; You have caused many to stumble at the law. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi,” Says the Lord of hosts.
9 “Therefore I also have made you contemptible and base before all the people, Because you have not kept My ways But have shown partiality in the law.”

13 And this is the second thing you do: You cover the altar of the Lord with tears, With weeping and crying; So He does not regard the offering anymore, Nor receive it with goodwill from your hands.
14 Yet you say, “For what reason?” Because the Lord has been witness between you and the wife of your youth, With whom you have dealt treacherously; Yet she is your companion And your wife by covenant.
15 But did He not make them one, Having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one? He seeks godly offspring. Therefore take heed to your spirit, And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.

17 You have wearied the Lord with your words; Yet you say, “In what way have we wearied Him?” In that you say, “Everyone who does evil Is good in the sight of the Lord, And He delights in them,” Or, “Where is the God of justice?”

--- Was God not right to set them aside? --- Because the priests, the spiritual leaders, had become an abomination to Him?

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I believe that the only way for the readers to see Surah 5:49 in the light of God’s plan of salvation from the beginning to the end, is to know more about the history, and the failure of the first agreement.

--- 5:49 “If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people.”

Or, “Had Allah willed He could have made you one community.” --- And if that had been the case we would be part of Judaism, keeping the laws given to Moses.

--- Or we would be rebellious idolaters who were outside of the family of God, and lost.

To continue with the history of the Jewish priests after they failed to serve God, there was another prophecy given, of God’s plan for a new covenant or ‘agreement with mankind.’ --- But since He could no longer rely on men to serve the holy office of High Priest, He did something else.

We find in the seldom read book of Zechariah these words in Zechariah 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, you and your colleagues who [usually] sit before you—for they are men who are a sign or omen [types of what is to come]—for behold, I will bring forth My servant the BRANCH.

--- Joshua was the High Priest after the captives returned from Babylon to Jerusalem and rebuilt the temple.  God looks back and said, ‘You and your colleagues are building a temple of the Lord.” --- Zerubbabel was the Governor and Ezra was the scribe.

 

6:12  And say to him, Thus says the Lord of hosts: [You, Joshua] behold (look at, keep in sight, watch) the Man [the Messiah] whose name is the BRANCH, for He shall grow up in His place and He shall build the [true] temple of the Lord.

13 Yes, [you, Joshua, are building a temple of the Lord, but] it is He Who shall build the [true] temple of the Lord, and He shall bear the honor and glory [as of the only begotten of the Father] and shall sit and rule upon His throne. And He shall be a Priest upon His throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between the two [offices—Priest and King].

--- This was done once before in the person of Melchizedek when the priesthood began in Salem, --- with the giving of the law to Abraham, including the responsibility of tithing. Abraham had come to Melchizedek, the King, after a victory over his enemies and this happened in Genesis 14:18 “Melchizedek king of Salem [later called Jerusalem] brought out bread and wine [for their nourishment]; he was the priest of God Most High,

19 And he blessed him and said, Blessed be Abraham by God Most High, Possessor and Maker of heaven and earth,

20 And blessed, praised, and glorified be God Most High, Who has given your foes into your hand! And [Abraham] gave him a tenth of all [he had taken].”

--- Notice it said Melchizedek, King of Salem, --- and again, “He was the priest of God Most High.” --- so the two offices of King and Priest were together, as they were again with the coming Messiah, Christ.

--- And one more Scripture, Zechariah 13:7 “Awake, O sword, against My shepherd and against the man who is My associate, says the Lord of hosts; smite the shepherd and the sheep [of the flock] shall be scattered.” 

This is another reference to Jesus Christ who was to come as a ‘Shepherd’ and ‘Associate’ of the Lord of hosts, which I will explain later.

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Hi THREE,

--- Actually this is quite relevant because the New Covenant was not built on a trinity, but on God's giving new direction and a 'new Spiritual way' for Christians. 

The trinity was a man made doctrine written with enough mystery that people were taught it was from God, as God is beyond understanding, therefore, mysterious.

 

I am sorry I made a mistake on the verse yesterday, I meant Surah 5:48, where i wrote 5:49. --- However, in the Sher Ali translation on line, it is numbered this way:

47 And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah; and We gave Him the Gospel wherein was guidance and light, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah, and a guidance and an admonition to the God fearing.

48 And let the people of the Gospel judge according to what Allah has revealed therein, and whoso judges not by what Allah has revealed, these it is who are the rebellious.

49 And We have revealed unto thee the Book comprising the truth and fulfilling that which was revealed before it in the Book, and as a guardian over it. Judge therefore between them by what Allah has revealed, and follow not their evil inclinations, turning away from the truth that has come to thee. For each of you We prescribed a clear spiritual Law and a manifest way in secular matters. And if Allah had enforced His will He would have made you all one people, but He wishes to try you by that which He has given you. Vie, then, with one another in good works. To Allah shall you all return; then will He inform you of that wherein you differed.

--- This is about as plain as English gets to me, so you can understand why I believe it.

Are there not some readers who believe this as well?

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After explaining that Melchizedek held the offices of Priest and King in the time of Abraham. --- And that the BRANCH, Christ, would occupy the two offices of priest and King, going into the New Covenant, I want to show the ‘transition’ from the Lord of hosts, who called Christ ‘His Companion and Associate' in Zechariah, and also ‘His Shepherd.’

So we go to the Last Book of the OT again which is Malachi 3:1 for this ‘transition Scripture.’

1 “Behold, I send My messenger, and he will prepare the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight.

Behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts.

But we can read it this way:

Behold I (the Lord of hosts) send My messenger (small ‘m’ on messenger, meaning John the Baptist) , and he (John) will prepare the way before Me (the Lord of hosts). --- And the Lord (the Messiah), whom you (Jews) seek, will suddenly come to His temple, even the Messenger (capital ‘M’ on Messenger, meaning Christ the Messiah), in whom you delight. (The Jews delighted in the promise of a Messiah coming and rejoiced at His birth)

Behold, He (the Messiah) is coming, says the Lord of hosts.

--- Notice that it was the Lord of hosts who was speaking in the ‘first person’ until the last line when He said, “He is coming,” in the ‘third person.’

The Lord of hosts is the speaker to the end of Malachi but is not mentioned in the New Testament, --- but the Personage changed to ‘the Lord Jesus Christ,’ who came after the forerunner, John the Baptist.

Malachi 4:5 “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
6 And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers.

And Elijah came in the person of John the Baptist as it says in Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your prayer is heard; and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you shall call his name John. 14 And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15 For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb. 16 And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God. 17 He will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, ‘to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children,’ and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

So John the Baptist was the messenger who went before the Lord Jesus Christ.

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