What are your thoughts on Che Guevara?

Zaydism · June 15, 2020

To some a revolutionary hero and to others a man who would kill ruthlessly to achieve his goals. What are your thoughts on this controversial figure?

**hasanhh** · June 15, 2020

A person of poor judgement.

Zaydism · June 15, 2020

@hasanhh I see many Muslims idolizing him and I am unsure if that is the right individual to take as a leader or political figure to look up to. However, oftentimes it is those with high socialist sentiments who are glorifying him and understandably so. I just don’t think juxtaposing Islam and socialism will lead to anything fruitful.

Silas · June 15, 2020

One remark about socialism:

as an ideology and a doctrine, it must always assert itself as the primary authority within society. Religion becomes secondary

we saw what happened with Ba'athism and other "Arab socialisms"

and we saw what becomes of "Liberation Theology" within Christianity. A good example is the "revolutionary" mass suicide of Rev. Jim Jones and his followers, or the horrors of the Sandanistas.

Hard socialism is revolutionary, violent, and without coherent direction. It is the ideology of the radical, and it cannot be reconciled with Islam

Abdul-Hadi · June 15, 2020

I think he was a cold blooded murderer and I realized this after reading Guerilla Warfare

Zaydism · June 15, 2020

1 minute ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

I think he was a cold blooded murderer and I realized this after reading Guerilla Warfare

Could you elaborate brother, your input is always appreciated and enlightening JazakAllah

**hasanhh** · June 16, 2020

1 hour ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

I think he was a cold blooded murderer and I realized this after reading Guerilla Warfare

Which book of this title?

Abdul-Hadi · June 16, 2020

4 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Could you elaborate brother, your input is always appreciated and enlightening JazakAllah

There's not much to it. I read through his book Guerilla Warfare after getting it from a local book trader lady before she shut down after 30 years and while he does a good job of dressing up his rhetoric, you can sense the resentment, hatred, and anger behind the words.

He talks about "oppressors" a lot, which is interesting considering that he was the one who ran the show trials of Cuban dissidents who were usually executed. I don't get anything but angry and hateful vibes from him, but I'm glad that I read the book because a lot of leftists still use this as one of their "sacred scriptures" & I think that some of the tactics and organizational models of Guerilla bands are being utilized in America during this current war against police and law.

America is falling apart. I never in my life thought I'd see an "autonomous zone" established in the center of a major city, but unless Trump has a...well... "trump card" up his sleeve, I see the American nation balkanizing within another four years. I don't think that the left is going to truly go down in America until a lot of people end up dead & that hurts because I don't believe that the American people deserve that.

BUH BUH BUH PALUHSTINEEE!

Yeah we get it, you're obsessed with Palestine because America backs Israel and you hate jews. That doesn't mean that average Americans deserve to suffer based on the actions of immensely powerful foreign lobbies or the brutality of Presidents who we really have ZERO influence on and don't even get to actually nominate. I usually don't like to discuss American politics with Muslims because of the "REEEEEEEE PALUHSTINEEEE!" and general "you deserve it" sentiments, because it would be just as easy for me to turn around to a Pakistani and say "Yeah, you deserve those drone strikes" based on having no understanding of Pakistan outside of what the corporate media in America and The West tell me, which is a problem that every nation has when it comes to information whether they want to believe it or not.

If Pakistanis and Middle Easterners want someone to blame for their problems, they can blame multinational corporations and the rootless internationalist turds that own and operate them instead of copping to the pathetically shortsighted belief (usually rammed into their skulls by their leaders and their own media) that the American people somehow wield any influence over what our so-called "leaders" (read: criminal cartels) do to the rest of the world. I mean, our elections haven't likely been legitimate since 1980 when the first corporate stooge president (Reagan) was installed in office to be the figurehead so that people wouldn't look behind the curtain and see the CIA and Reagan's necon cabinet actually making the calls (Reagan was collapsing from Alzheimer's in his first term, it was just easier to hide back then). This criminal cartel victimizes American citizens as much as it victimizes foreigners, just through importing drugs into the inner cities. Crack? That was the CIA. Opiate epidemic? That's still the CIA because our soldiers are in Afghanistan for literally no reason now other than to guard poppy fields so the CIA can traffick heroin back into the country to keep the working classes addicted and thus, too messed up to notice how those in power are raiding the public wealth and gradually removing any sort of social service while our infrastructure gradually crumbles into nothingness without being updated or replaced.

If you want to better understand what I mean (because I'm disjointed and ranting at the moment), I'd direct you to foreign policy talks/lectures by a leftist named Michael Parenti (back before the left was insane identity politics and still sort of stood for something, before it was co-opted by a cadre of self-absorbed lesbians and gays eternally seeking validation for their lifestyles).

Sorry if this comes off as angry or mean, I'm just to my breaking point in dealing with all of this. One of my home state's wildlife conservation officers was fatally shot today and nobody can even give a reason as to why. Those guys don't do anything besides protect vulnerable animals and make sure that people aren't polluting. They aren't hauling people off to jail for cannabis or for driving to work on a suspended license, it was a senseless killing because the university campus academic left has pushed grievance politics to a deadly point.

He was black, but since he was law enforcement I guess his life doesn't matter to these people. It really bums me out, so I'm sorry.

Edited June 16, 2020 by Abdul-Hadi
addtl info

Zaydism · June 16, 2020

42 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

Which book of this title?

I believe the brother was referring to this one -

https://www.amazon.com/Guerrilla-Warfare-Ernesto-Che-Guevara/dp/149299748X/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=guerilla+warfare&qid=1592271359&sprefix=guerilla+&sr=8-3

**hasanhh** · June 16, 2020

32 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

I believe the brother

Books like these are based in traditional and 1950s-1960s technology.

Very much out of date.

Abdul-Hadi · June 16, 2020

14 hours ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

I believe the brother was referring to this one -

https://www.amazon.com/Guerrilla-Warfare-Ernesto-Che-Guevara/dp/149299748X/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=guerilla+warfare&qid=1592271359&sprefix=guerilla+&sr=8-3

Yeah, that's the one. I have a copy of The Communist Manifesto as well as a few right wing books. I don't really have any developed political theory myself, but I want to know what other people believe because that can help me make sense of what's going on in the world beyond my tiny little corner of it.

That was actually one of the things that got me interested in Islam: wanting to know what 1b people believed.

**hasanhh** · June 18, 2020

On 6/16/2020 at 9:34 AM, Abdul-Hadi said:

Yeah, that's the one. I have a copy of The Communist Manifesto as well as a few right wing books. I don't really have any developed political theory myself, but I want to know what other people believe because that can help me make sense of what's going on in the world beyond my tiny little corner of it.

That was actually one of the things that got me interested in Islam: wanting to know what 1b people believed.

One thing to remember about this subject, as the American Revolution and resulting institutions were a reaction to monarchy (and the empitome of 18th Century thought); socialism was the continental reaction to monarchy and aristocracy post Napoleon.

Socialism is 19th Century ideas.

Schumpter belongs to the 20th Century.

**Haji 2003** · February 22

AbdusSibtayn · February 23

On 6/16/2020 at 6:37 AM, Abdul-Hadi said:

If Pakistanis and Middle Easterners want someone to blame for their problems, they can blame multinational corporations and the rootless internationalist turds that own and operate them instead of copping to the pathetically shortsighted belief (usually rammed into their skulls by their leaders and their own media) that the American people somehow wield any influence over what our so-called "leaders" (read: criminal cartels) do to the rest of the world. I

If they shirk their Islamic responsibility of protesting this state of affairs, and defend/aid them, then they are every bit as responsible for and complicit in the war upon Islam and the Muslims by their leaders. Instead of whining 'muh establishment' they should actually do something and hard think about what is keeping those leaders in power and do something about it. Why should we suffer because of their governments, while they simply stand aside and shrug?

On 6/16/2020 at 6:37 AM, Abdul-Hadi said:

BUH BUH BUH PALUHSTINEEE!

Yeah we get it, you're obsessed with Palestine because America backs Israel and you hate jews.

The one who utters such bile has lifted the yoke of belief from himself, and is no longer a Muslim (that is, if he was ever one), even if he LARPs as a Muslim. Islam is a cosplay and acting out a fetish for such lowlifes, not a belief system.

AbdusSibtayn · February 23

There's a reason why we in the global south don't look at Stalin, Che and Fidel as the demons that the 'first world' denizens of modern day Sodoms and Gomorrahs do- they were always friends of our people and our bulwark against Zio Crusader neo colonialism.

When my people were starving in the late-40s to early 50s due to a British- imposed famine, it was Stalin who sent shiploads of foodgrain, no questions asked, the Soviet Union did not even expected us to pay for it. This was while US and its usurious institutions wanted us to pawn away our country in exchange for food. Some Soviet mandarins were telling him about how the aid ships needed diplomatic clearance etc when he famously remarked, 'documents can wait, hunger cannot'. I will forever recall his memory with fondness. We have similar views of the Cuban leadership.

The denizens of Sodom and Gomorrah can froth at their mouths and throw as many hissy fits as they want.

AbdusSibtayn · February 23

On 6/16/2020 at 6:37 AM, Abdul-Hadi said:

. I usually don't like to discuss American politics with Muslims because of the "REEEEEEEE PALUHSTINEEEE!" and general "you deserve it" sentiments, because it would be just as easy for me to turn around to a Pakistani and say "Yeah, you deserve those drone strikes" based on having no understanding of Pakistan outside of what the corporate media in America and The West tell me, which is a problem that every nation has when it comes to information whether they want to believe it or not.

False equivalence. Last time I checked it was not the Pakistani government sanctioning, couping, starving and sending armies to rape and pillage other countries (especially Muslim ones) so all your bawling over how third world Muslims unreservedly hate insensitive, victim-blaming, tone-deaf Western Muslim Karens is a bunch of baloney. The two situations cannot be compared, they are not accountable for what YOUR government does.

Interestingly, your types make absolutely zero noise when our expats (who are only ever there to do jobs/work on salaries that YOU don't want/aren't qualified for) are racially profiled and hate-crimed in your countries; you simply shrug and say 'well, they got to assimilate, when in Rome do as Romans do'. I don't see the same indignation then.

Are you a Muslim (you seem to have a Muslim-sounding name though)? Have you read the Quran, and the Hadiths of our Prophet (SAWA) on the mutual rights of Muslims on each other? Do they teach logic in American schools?

Eddie Mecca · February 24

The man (i.e. Che Guevara) was a socialist saint and embodied the true spirit of Shi'i Islam...may Allah forgive him for his atheistic shortcomings

mahmood8726 · February 24

21 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

There's a reason why we in the global south don't look at Stalin, Che and Fidel as the demons that the 'first world' denizens of modern day Sodoms and Gomorrahs do- they were always friends of our people and our bulwark against Zio Crusader neo colonialism.

I wouldn't call Stalin a friend, he did live as a sultan whilst he preached communism to his people.

However the western world had a tendency to over inflate the actions of such leaders and make stuff up, even many times making them seem worse than Hitler. Most of the things that communist leaders have been accused of doing, are practically nonsense and untrue.

Eddie Mecca · February 24

https://crescent.icit-digital.org/articles/post-islamic-awakening-what-would-che-say

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Post-Islamic Awakening: What would Che say?

As President Evo Morales of Bolivia attended the ceremony marking the 50th anniversary of Ernesto Che Guevara’s death, it was clear that Che’s ideas and legacy had triumphed over those of his adversaries: the US and its brutal Latin American proxies.

When Che arrived in Bolivia to start armed resistance against the CIA-backed military dictatorship, he was an unknown figure among a majority of Bolivians and a significant minority in the rest of Latin America opposed his ideas. Today, from Venezuela to Nicaragua, the ruling elites and masses in Latin America express fascination with the legendary revolutionary.

Anyone who familiarizes himself with Che Guevara’s writings and speeches will immediately notice his passionate advocacy for guerrilla warfare as the main vehicle for resistance against injustice. Che’s blunt rationalization for his position often made him unpopular among left-wing intellectuals sipping coffee in Paris and Moscow, while calling on the masses to sacrifice. Che was a doer, not merely a thinker.

If one could travel back in time and describe the events of the Islamic Awakening (aka Arab Spring) to Che, it would be interesting to hear his thoughts. Given his temperament, it can be surmised that Che would be appalled by the idea of standing in the street allowing oneself to be beaten up by the brutal security apparatus. One of the reasons the Algerian and Vietnamese resistance movements fascinated him was that they were not simply demonstrating. Che’s primary criticism of the leftist response to the 1954 CIA-orchestrated coup in Guatemala was that they refused to immediately resort to guerrilla warfare.

The world of 2017 is much different from 1967, the year Che was murdered in the jungles of Bolivia. The contemporary world is a complex socio-political drama where political machinations can compensate for hard-power disadvantages. This is something Che knew well even in his days and he famously stated that one political defeat could annul a series of military victories.

Today, this can best be observed in Syria. Since 2011, a cabal of over a dozen very powerful nations committed vast amounts of hard power to eliminate the presence of Islamic Iran in Syria but due to the prudent political and social policies of the Islamic leadership in Iran, the Zionist-imperialist project in Syria has failed. Thus, the political aspect of struggle has become even more important today than in 1967, especially due to the mass media.

One of Che’s trademarks for initiating change was to encourage indigenous populations to reclaim their inalienable rights. Due in large part to the US, he failed to accomplish this in Bolivia as only 20 Bolivians joined his group of 52 revolutionaries but the validity of his approach cannot be faulted.

One of the biggest criticisms of the groups involved in the Arab Spring from El Comandante would be their collusion with external forces with a sinister agenda. In the post-2011 Islamic Awakening, it is clear that in those locales where foreign “assistance” for indigenous movements was greater, the results were far worse than in places with less foreign support. Libya and Syria are prime examples of this phenomenon. As Tunisia caught everyone by surprise, the external actors failed to mobilize in time, thus Tunisia is doing better than Libya and Syria. In Bahrain, the people’s movement refused outright any foreign “assistance.” Of course Che Guevara was not naïve; he knew well that without some Cuban state support he would not be able to enter Congo or Bolivia safely and he took Cuba’s aid when and where needed. Nevertheless, his motto was, less external support is better than more.

Today, Latin America is closer to where he wished it to be. The Chavez factor and survival of the Cuban revolutionary government to this day are clearly achievements Che would be very proud of. The irony is that places like Bolivia, Venezuela, Ecuador, and Nicaragua, where leftist movements admiring Che exercise great influence within and outside of the government, became powerful through popular mobilization and ballot boxes. The path to ballot-box victory for leftist movements in Latin America was paved with decades of imprisonment, torture and other hardships.

The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt went through a similar experience. Yet, the leftists of Venezuela and Bolivia did not make strategic compromises with the foreign propped ruling despotic caste. This mistake was committed in Egypt, for which Che would definitely have scolded the Muslim Brotherhood.

Most probably Che would have felt most attuned to the ongoing struggle in Gaza and Yemen today. Che’s writings closely relate to both situations. From his writings and speeches, it appears that he could relate to the struggle in Gaza and Yemen better than to Tunisia or Egypt. Che would probably view Gaza and Yemen as the only models in the Muslim East that have been able to dismantle the corrupt and oppressive internal ruling regimes, that have broad local appeal, and that have eliminated the occupying or meddling foreign presence.

Fifty years after Che Guevara’s death at the hands of the CIA, his ideas still scare despots worldwide as they did when he was alive. Che continues to be an inspiration to many justice-seeking people around the globe and is most likely to continue inspiring a new generation of strugglers in Latin America resisting foreign dominance, economic in-equality, and corporate exploitation. As for Muslims, Che’s famous saying “If you tremble with indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine,” and dedication of his life to this motto makes him far closer to Islam than most Muslim rulers. This also makes him an unflinching supporter of the struggle of Imam Husayn (a).

Tahir Mahmoud

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As President Evo Morales of Bolivia attended the ceremony marking the 50th anniversary of Ernesto Che Guevara’s death, it was clear that Che’s ideas and legacy had triumphed over those of his adversaries: the US and its brutal Latin American proxies.

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Crescent International Vol. 46, No. 9

Safar 12, 1439

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