Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Ejaz

Are Christians polytheists from a Shiite perspective?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

On 7/13/2020 at 9:48 AM, al-Muttaqin said:

Christians who understand the Jewish roots of Christianity would never worship Jesus.

The more I study the Old Testament and the laws and teaching around Jewish worship and the sacrifical system that God prescribed.  The more I read and study the prophets who spoke to the Jewish people.  The more I realise how the Jewish roots are things God put in place to prepare us for Jesus and the things he did.  His teaching and life build on the Jewish roots.  HIs death and resurrection are forshadowed in the sacrifical system and the temple and tabernacal worship.

It is my study of the Old Testament and Jewish roots that cause me to want to exalt and worship God who revealed himself to us in Jesus.  If it wasn't for the Jewish roots in the Old Testament the life, teaching, death, resurrection and exaltaion of Jesus wouldn't make any sense.

Look at these verses from The Prophet Isaiah chapter 45

    And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
    there is none but me.

22 “Turn to me and be saved,
    all you ends of the earth;
    for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
    my mouth has uttered in all integrity
    a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
    by me every tongue will swear.

24 They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone
    are deliverance and strength.’”

Then read this song of praise about Jesus (Philipians chapter 2)

Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father

Here we see God recognising Jesus and giving him the same honour which he declares is due only to himself.  The Jewish roots bring the fruit in Jesus.

Yes I worship Jesus because God has said that that is the only appropriate response to the one who before the creation of the world was prepared to humble himslef to bring about the salvation of the human race.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/8/2020 at 10:20 AM, Ejaz said:

:salam:

Quoting Greater sins:

If this is true, why do we refer to them as ahle kitab, and why is marriage (of a certain type) permissible with them?

May Allah bless you all

I was raised in Christian family and I think there is one possible reason why. Although the doctrine of the Trinity, the 'Godhead', etc is part of Christianity and is considered a 'required' belief by some sects, it is functionally obsolete in the day to day lives of most Christians. What I mean by 'functionally obsolete' is that most Christians do not refer to or practice anything related to the doctrine of the Trinity in their Daily lives. They may repeat some words in as part of a Church Service, but if you ask most Christians what those words actually mean, like the words of the Nicene Creed, they will probably have no idea. 

Christianity is different from say Hinduism. Christians do not generally have statues of Jesus in their homes that they interact with as if they were a living being, nor do they bow to them or pray to them. Some do have these statues but they basically just sit there as a work of art of a conversation piece. Also, they don't consider, as do Hindus that 'God' somehow resides inside the statue or is contained within it. They would view a statue of Jesus as an artists interpretation of what Jesus looked like, but not Jesus or 'God' in any way. 

This is what I experienced growing up in a Christian household.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/8/2020 at 9:06 AM, THREE1THREE said:

Many jurist say it is haram, except for a few, many Jurists have not understood the trinity only recently some understood that majority of “Christians” believe in the doctrine of the trinity and rarely do you find Christians believing jesus was just a prophet of God and a messiah.

Does the Quran teach that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah? If so, what did he save them from?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

The more I study the Old Testament and the laws and teaching around Jewish worship and the sacrifical system that God prescribed.  The more I read and study the prophets who spoke to the Jewish people.  The more I realise how the Jewish roots are things God put in place to prepare us for Jesus and the things he did.  His teaching and life build on the Jewish roots.  HIs death and resurrection are forshadowed in the sacrifical system and the temple and tabernacal worship.

It is my study of the Old Testament and Jewish roots that cause me to want to exalt and worship God who revealed himself to us in Jesus.  If it wasn't for the Jewish roots in the Old Testament the life, teaching, death, resurrection and exaltaion of Jesus wouldn't make any sense.

Look at these verses from The Prophet Isaiah chapter 45

    And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
    there is none but me.

22 “Turn to me and be saved,
    all you ends of the earth;
    for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
    my mouth has uttered in all integrity
    a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
    by me every tongue will swear.

24 They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone
    are deliverance and strength.’”

Then read this song of praise about Jesus (Philipians chapter 2)

Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father

Here we see God recognising Jesus and giving him the same honour which he declares is due only to himself.  The Jewish roots bring the fruit in Jesus.

Yes I worship Jesus because God has said that that is the only appropriate response to the one who before the creation of the world was prepared to humble himslef to bring about the salvation of the human race.

You're quoting Paul, who is referencing Isaiah. In Isaiah's passage it clearly shows that the Israelites, if they follow God, already have salvation. Also Isaiah 45 calls Cyrus the Great a Messiah, as there have been many anointed ones before Jesus in the Old Testament. 

And by Jewish roots, I mean read the New Testament "Gospels" (not Paul who has no standing at all) in context of 1st century JEWISH understanding - which is the complete opposite of what you are doing, which is reading the Old Testament through post-3rd Century Christian interpretation. You've replied with the complete opposite of what I have said. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, al-Muttaqin said:

You've replied with the complete opposite of what I have said. 

He’s not interested in understanding, but rather indoctrinating. He thinks Muslims are weak fools who can easily be drawn into endless discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, flyingeagle said:

Does the Quran teach that Jesus is the Jewish Messiah? If so, what did he save them from?

Does the Quran call jesus the Messiah ? Does the Quran say he was sent to the children of Israel ? Yes. 

He came to reform Israel by distinguishing truth from falsehood contained in the Tanak to reveal the knowledge of salvation in his first coming and was to be king since he inhearts the throne of David. In his second coming he will fulfil God’s purpose that he didn’t complete. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m a little frustrated with the Muslims who are taken for fools by the evangelists. It seems that having good manners is taken for weakness and gullibility by CIA/MI6 agents.

Again, these evangelists are the same people who are the number-one enemy of Muslims and humanity and who are putting mind-altering chemicals in the water supply.

Bear in mind that the slaveowners always urged their slaves to “turn the other cheek,” be deferential, patient, submissive, polite, etc. because “god” ordained the slaveowners’ rule.

Maybe I’m going against the rules on this site, but I find that being honest and telling the “inconvenient truth” is what’s needed in these last days. Setting history straight is essential.

I’m not against being mannerly. I just find that many people use mannerliness as a guise for their naïveté. People should be mannerly and discerning.

Edited by Northwest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/14/2020 at 6:35 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

The more I study the Old Testament and the laws and teaching around Jewish worship and the sacrificial system that God prescribed. The more I read and study the prophets who spoke to the Jewish people. The more I realise how the Jewish roots are things God put in place to prepare us for Jesus and the things he did. His teaching and life build on the Jewish roots. His death and resurrection are foreshadowed in the sacrificial system and the temple and tabernacle worship.

In Matthew 7 Jesus unapologetically refers to the Gentiles as curs. According to Matthew 15 he was only sent to reform the “lost” (straying) sheep within the fold of Bani Israel. Gentiles such as Trinitarian polytheist evangelicals are trying to steal the mantle of monotheism from Muslims, including the Jewish followers of Jesus and his successor Simon Peter. Read Hyam Maccoby’s The Sacred Executioner to get a fuller picture on how Trinitarian Christians were the first Gentiles to use an entire people as a scapegoat. In other words, they sought to supersede the followers of Jesus as the “true Israel,” despite having neither genetic nor religious ties to Bani Israel. In reality Jesus did not want the Gentiles (non-Muslims, non-Jews) to be saved, since the Gentiles willingly denied their fitrah by following their nafs, and Jesus knew they would never repent and would instead pervert everything they touched, which they did through their agent Saul the imposter. You might be one of those Masonic “British Israelites” who like to pretend they are Jewish and promote Zionism to hasten the conversion and/or extermination of Jews and Muslims in World War III prior to the Second Coming.

Quote

Yes I worship Jesus because God has said that that is the only appropriate response to the one who before the creation of the world was prepared to humble himself to bring about the salvation of the human race.

You aren’t interested in learning anything. You are only interested in hearing yourself talk and in converting people over to the Party of Satan (polytheism) and Hell.

I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but I am really tired of the truth being perverted and slandered by the enemies of (the) God. I am tired of Christian shirk and arrogance.

Edited by Northwest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Northwest said:

In reality Jesus did not want the Gentiles (non-Muslims, non-Jews) to be saved, since the Gentiles willingly denied their fitrah by following their nafs

Well in the context of both the New Testament 'gospels' and the Qur'an, this is definitely the case. I wouldn't say he "did not" want Gentiles to be "saved" (using the Jewish meaning, not foreign later Christian meaning) but that it was simply not his mission as a Prophet and as the Messiah. Jesus was the last of the Israelite stream of Prophecy. Muhammad was the last of the Gentile Prophets. Everything else everywhere else (as you'd know, Prophet Muhammad and the Imams have stated famously that hundreds of thousands of Prophets and Messengers have been sent to all nations throughout history up until the event of Islam) is prior to both these specific events of the major patriarchs of Jesus and Muhammad.

The way Jesus is depicted in the New Testament 'gospels' is definitely offensive at times, particularly because slurs are attributed to him several times. Such behavior is troublesome, especially as a Muslim because we reject that the Prophets and Messengers do such things, and just on a general level the slurs attributed to Jesus are obviously racist, whether taken lightly or not. Christians though over-sentimentalize their texts without proper reason to do so (after all their 'gospels' are only reports from oral tradition which gives it instant margin of error). These Christians because they worship Jesus and think that he's sinless and infallible (not that we disagree with them in principle about Jesus, but we don't accept their texts the way they do without criticism) causes so much stuff to go over their heads, it's often embarrassing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Northwest said:

You might be one of those Masonic “British Israelites” who like to pretend they are Jewish and promote Zionism to hasten the conversion and/or extermination of Jews and Muslims in World War III prior to the Second Coming.

Wow, very fascinating. Elsewhere at the moment I know a real Jew arguing with both British Israelites and (Black) Hebrew Israelites. There is a lot of the typical chaos/disorder, solution, stuff going on there with a lot of those movements. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Christians beleive in athropomorphism,where all the 3 in the trinity are the same and God can mannifest in any one of the 3, basically God can limit him self and become(manifest himself as) a physical human being, ie Jesus(عليه السلام) or as the holy spirit, other christians beleive God has a litteral son, other christians beleive that God has a trinity where all 3 are one but also distinct at the same time, which is just a contradiction, all of this is obviously extreemly wrong from shia islams point of view, some of these beleifs like God manifesting him self as a human is no diffirent from greek mythology or hinduism, etc..

 

Another beleif they have is the original sin and the scrifice of Jesus(عليه السلام), this also goes fully against islams prinicples.

 

Christians also beleive prophets made sins, ie, Nooh(عليه السلام) drank alchool and went nude infront of his son (god forbid), or Lut(عليه السلام) did inscest with his daugthers (god forbid), etc...

 

I can go on and on with many of the diffirences and problems.

Obviously the biggest reason is the first one where christians are litteral antropomorphists, if christians were not antropomorphists then God being Jesus or having a son or whatever would not be a thing, basically they would not be christians, they even beleive the God the father has a physical form, just read when Adam(عليه السلام) was created in the bible and youll find the father playing hide and seek with Adam(عليه السلام) , there are many other examples of this in the bible too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/14/2020 at 1:26 PM, Abu Hadi said:

 

Christianity is different from say Hinduism. Christians do not generally have statues of Jesus in their homes that they interact with as if they were a living being, nor do they bow to them or pray to them. Some do have these statues but they basically just sit there as a work of art of a conversation piece. Also, they don't consider, as do Hindus that 'God' somehow resides inside the statue or is contained within it. They would view a statue of Jesus as an artists interpretation of what Jesus looked like, but not Jesus or 'God' in any way. 

When I entered a catholic church here in montreal I saw people kiss the feet of the statue of Jesus(عليه السلام) which was hanging in the wall, I also saw some christians kneel before the statue and close their hands and supplicate for blessings.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

When I entered a catholic church here in montreal I saw people kiss the feet of the statue of Jesus(عليه السلام) which was hanging in the wall, I also saw some christians kneel before the statue and close their hands and supplicate for blessings.

 

 

Like I said, there are exceptions, and I can only speak to my experiences growing up. My family was Protestant, btw. At the same time, you should ask them why they are doing this. We, as Shias, get accused of shirk because we do things like make Dua in front of the Shrines of Our Imams((عليه السلام).) and kiss the cage where they are buried. So when we see someone doing something, we should not assume we know 'why' they are doing it. If they tell you 'This is God, or a part of God, or God resides in this thing, so I am worshiping it', then they are doing Shirk. But in my experience, when Christians kiss the feet of a statue of Mary(may peace and blessings be upon her), they do not believe Mary is part of God, so they are worshiping her. They are doing dua and asking her to intercede for them with God, the same as we do when we visit Karbala and do dua at the Shrine of Imam Hussein((عليه السلام)). I am not saying that this is why they do this, I don't know why because I can't read their mind, but I have asked my Catholic friends this question before and this is what they told me. Again, I was raised Protestant and the Protestant Church doesn't have this tradition but I had friends who were Catholic growing up. Also, if they believe that Mary is God(astaghfirAllah) or a part of God or has power and will that is independent of God, then they are mushrik(polytheist), and this act is shirk(polytheism). But this is not a common belief amoung Christians, in my experience.

Now some, who know the words of the Catholic Rosary (common prayer Catholics do) will say, 'Well they call Mary 'Mother of God', as it says in the Rosary 'Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners....'. This is where it gets complicated, and I believe why Christians are considered 'Ahl Alt Kitab' and not Mushrik. It is because although they use the title 'Mother of God' for Mary(peace and blessings be upon her), they use it as a title and not as an attribute for her. This is why I said the idea of the Trinity is 'functionally obsolete' because although there is this Title, 'Mother of God' which is extremely problematic when it comes to Islamic Theology, the function of the Rosary Prayer is not to worship Mary, but as a dua(supplication to God). Some people stop at the 'Mother of God' title and then say 'OMG, these are Mushrik people !', without listening to the next part of the Rosary. The next part is 'Pray for us sinners, now and ...'. They are asking Mary to Pray for them. Pray to Who ? If Mary was herself really 'Mother of God' why would she need to pray to anyone ? They would simply say 'Mary forgive us, Mary help us...' thinking that Mary had the power herself to do this. When they say 'Pray for us sinners', this is an acknowledgement that Mary herself does not have the power to forgive their sins, but she must Pray to who ? Obviously to God to forgive them. This is an acknowledgement that Mary is not God. 

BTW, if they would take out the 'Mother of God' part, this would be a Dua that maybe you might find in books like Mufatih Al Jinan. There are duas that are very similar to this in that book, of course without the 'Mother of God' title ascribed to Mary. This is because we believe, as followers of Ahl Al Bayt, believe that if someone is a mumin or mumina, and especially those whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has blessed and honored in a special way (like Mary(peace and blessings be upon her) who was given the honor and privilege of being the Mother of Prophet Isa((عليه السلام)) one of the five Great Prophets) can do Shafaat (intercession) for other momineen and muminat (believers in God and those who put the beliefs into practice). 

 

Edited by Abu Hadi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/15/2020 at 2:35 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

The more I study the Old Testament and the laws and teaching around Jewish worship and the sacrifical system that God prescribed.  The more I read and study the prophets who spoke to the Jewish people.  The more I realise how the Jewish roots are things God put in place to prepare us for Jesus and the things he did.

Leviticus 4:

“1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

2Speak to the children of Israel, saying: If a person sins unintentionally [by committing one] of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, and he commits [part] of one of them

3If the anointed kohen sins, bringing guilt to the people, then he shall bring for his sin which he has committed, an unblemished young bull as a sin offering to the Lord.

4And he shall bring the bull to the entrance of the Tent of Meeting before the Lord, and he shall lean his hand [forcefully] upon the bull's head and slaughter the bull before the Lord.

5And the anointed kohen shall take from the bull's blood and bring it into the Tent of Meeting.

6And the kohen shall dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle some of the blood seven times before the Lord, before the dividing curtain of the Sanctuary.

7And the kohen shall place some of the blood on the horns of the incense altar which is in the Tent of Meeting, before the Lord, and he shall pour all the blood of the bull onto the base of the altar [used] for burnt offerings, which is at the entrance of the Tent of Meeting.

8And all the fat of the sin offering bull he shall separate from it: the fat covering the innards, and all the fat that is on the innards,

9and the two kidneys [along] with the fat that is on them, which is on the flanks; and the diaphragm with the liver, along with the kidneys, he shall remove it,

10just as was separated from the bull [sacrificed as] a peace offering, the kohen shall then cause them to [go up in] smoke on the altar [used] for burnt offerings.

11[He shall then take] the bull's skin and all of its flesh, along with its head and along with its legs, its innards and its waste matter.

12He shall take out the entire bull to a clean place outside the camp, [namely,] to the ash depository, and he shall burn it in fire on wood. Thus, it shall be burnt in the ash depository.

13And if the entire community of Israel errs because a matter was hidden from the eyes of the congregation, and they commit one of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, incurring guilt;

14When the sin which they had committed becomes known, the congregation shall bring a young bull as a sin offering. They shall bring it before the Tent of Meeting.

15The elders of the community shall lean their hands [forcefully] upon the bull's head, before the Lord, and one shall slaughter the bull before the Lord.

16The anointed kohen shall bring some of the bull's blood into the Tent of Meeting,

17and the kohen shall dip his finger from the blood, and sprinkle [it] seven times before the Lord, before the dividing curtain.

18And he shall then place some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is before the Lord in the Tent of Meeting. And then he shall pour all the blood onto the base of the altar [used] for burnt offerings, which is at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

19And he shall separate all its fat from it and cause it to [go up in] smoke on the altar.

20He shall do to the bull just as he did to the bull of the sin offering thus he shall do to it. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for them [the community], and they will be forgiven.

21And he shall take the bull outside the camp and burn it, just as he burned the first bull. It is a sin offering for the congregation.

22If a leader [of Israel] sins and unintentionally commits one of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, incurring guilt;

23if his sin that he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring his offering: an unblemished male goat.

24And he shall lean his hand [forcefully] upon the goat's head and slaughter it in the place where he slaughters burnt offerings, before the Lord. It is a sin offering.

25And the kohen shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and place [it] on the horns of the altar [used] for burnt offerings. And then he shall pour its blood onto the base of the altar [used] for burnt offerings.

26And he shall cause all its fat to [go up in] smoke on the altar, just like the fat of the peace offering. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for his sin, and he will be forgiven.

27If one person of the people of the land commits a sin unintentionally, by his committing one of the commandments of the Lord which may not be committed, incurring guilt;

28if his sin that he committed is made known to him, he shall bring his sacrifice: an unblemished female goat, for his sin that he committed.

29And he shall lean his hand [forcefully] on the head of the sin offering, and he shall slaughter the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30And the kohen shall take some of its blood with his finger, and place [it] on the horns of the altar [used] for burnt offerings. And then he shall pour all of its [remaining] blood at the base of the altar.

31And he shall remove all of its fat, just as the fat was removed from the peace offering. The kohen shall then cause it to [go up in] smoke on the altar, as a pleasing fragrance to the Lord. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

32If he brings a sheep for his sin offering, he shall bring an unblemished female.

33He shall lean his hand [forcefully] upon the head of the sin offering and slaughter it as a sin offering in the place where he slaughters the burnt offering.

34And the kohen shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and place [it] on the horns of the altar [used] for burnt offerings. And then he shall pour all of its blood onto the base of the altar.

35And he shall remove all its fat, just as the sheep's fat is removed from the peace offering. The kohen shall then cause them to [go up in] smoke on the altar, upon the fires for the Lord. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for him, for his sin which he committed, and he will be forgiven.”

I Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

Hosea 6:6, “6For I desire mercy, not sacrifice”

The sacrifice system was for UNINTENTIONAL SINS which is now abrogated. To obey and hear God’s commands will remove your unintentional sin because it will remove your ignorance and give u wisdom. 

Psalms 19:8 

8The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the Lord is faithful, making the simple one wise.”

Mark 12:28-33

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

32“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

you continue making claims without even knowing if it’s backed up or not.

 

Judge1. Once upon a time there was a young man who committed a crime, later that day he regretted it and was sent to the court, the young man cried and cried bitterly because of the crime that he committed and regrets it very much, he expressed to the judge how much he regretted the crime that he committed and begged for mercy, the judge told the young man that you will be sent to jail unless you pay 100k for bail, as the judge was finishing saying that a man came in and said to the judge “I will pay for his bail” so the judge accepted and the young man was released. 

 

Judge2. Once upon a time there was young man who committed a crime, later that day he regretted the crime that he committed and was sent to the court, the young man cried and cried bitterly because of the crime that he committed and regrets it very much, he expressed to the judge how much he regretted the crime that he committed and begged for mercy, so the judge told the young man “I will forgive you but on one condition....that you will never do it again” the young man was very glad and did not see the jail.

 

The person who was standing before judge2 regretted his crime.

that would be interpreted as the person regretted committing a sin.

the person standing before judge2 was expressing his regret and begging for mercy, when the person was begging for mercy he was begging for forgiveness, judge2 would forgive him but on a certain condition 

that would be interpreted as the person expressing his regret of committing the sin to God & asking God for forgiveness and this is the condition, 

2 Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face(favours), and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

Ezekiel 18:20-21,

“The soul that sins, it shall die, a son shall not bear the sins of the father, and the father shall not bear the sins of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. And if the wicked man repent of all his sins  that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.”

Judge1 on other hand wouldn’t forgive and would send the man to jail unless someone would come bare the burden of his payment.

That would be interpreted as God wouldn’t forgive the person and the person would be sent to hell unless someone came and took his place.

no sense of justice at all from the God of the Paulines. 

Trinitarian:

“God is a just God who has to do something with our sin.  Simply forgiving sin does not take care of the problem of sin.”

“God does something with our sin.  All the injustices and horrible acts including the ones you and I have done (even with our thoughts) do not just disappear into thin air.  The Quran does not speak of a need for a cross or a death and shows that God simply forgives people.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

‘The Quran does not speak of a need for a cross or a death and shows that God simply forgives people’

“On certain conditions like the OT unlike your God who simply forgives people by commiting suicide. Look at the double standards. And lack of Logic.”

‘God is a just God who has to do something with our sin.’

“Hence why God says in Deuteronomy 8:5-6 “5You shall know in your heart, that just as a man chastises his son, so does the Lord, your God, chastise you.

6And you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, to go in His ways, and to fear Him.”

Unlike ur God who simply forgives by committing suicide.”

Reply

Trinitarian:

“Suicide is taking a life away by someone who has no right to take that life away.  Only the creator has that right.  Suicide is selfish and is an ultimate lack of faith (I do feel for those who are going through depression and stuff that would lead to suicide because I know it's very hard).  God has every right to give his life as he pleases because it's his life and he is God and creator.  It's not selfish because he knows he's the best thing for humanity and his act is saving humanity.  Big difference here.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“You know very well you are running away from your double standards. Ur God simply forgives by killing himself no sense of justice whatsoever. 

When a killer does something in real life yous all voice out demanding justice and he should be sent to jail but when he is released from court yous all get angry and question the courts sense of justice.” (Trinitarian fantasies thread)

Ive Already shown the OT showing jesus being save which you arrogantly denied.

 

On 7/15/2020 at 2:35 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

It is my study of the Old Testament and Jewish roots that cause me to want to exalt and worship God who revealed himself to us in Jesus.  If it wasn't for the Jewish roots in the Old Testament the life, teaching, death, resurrection and exaltaion of Jesus wouldn't make any sense.

Look at these verses from The Prophet Isaiah chapter 45

    And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
    there is none but me.

22 “Turn to me and be saved,
    all you ends of the earth;
    for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
    my mouth has uttered in all integrity
    a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
    by me every tongue will swear.

24 They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone
    are deliverance and strength.’”

Then read this song of praise about Jesus (Philipians chapter 2)

Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
    and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
    to the glory of God the Father

Here we see God recognising Jesus and giving him the same honour which he declares is due only to himself.  The Jewish roots bring the fruit in Jesus.

Yes I worship Jesus because God has said that that is the only appropriate response to the one who before the creation of the world was prepared to humble himslef to bring about the salvation of the human race.

How deluded are you, In Isaiah 45 God is speaking not jesus and His speaking of Himself not sombody else. Also you are distinguishing Jesus from God by saying, “Yes I worship Jesus because God has said” “Here we see God recognising Jesus”

Leslie P Trinitarian:

And yet Paul writes (Phil 2:10) that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth“ clearly referencing Isaiah 45: “for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone are deliverance and strength.’” Clearly Paul thinks Jesus is God.

I think you're getting a bit confused about how Paul uses the phrase “God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” to refer to the role of Jesus. The meaning is 'God, who is the the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ'.

It's the same God..Lord...structure as the 1 Corinthians 8 passage- “there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him”. Notice how Jesus has taken on the role of Kyrios- Lord, who in the original Shema is definitively God.

So to stress the point, Paul has taken the ultimate prayer of monotheism, the One God prayer, and inserted Jesus into it in such a way that makes it clear that Jesus is God.

reply 

Three1Three Unitarian: 

You are taking Isaiah 45 which talks about God Almighty out of context. Paul was a dualist who believed Jesus was divine (i.e a god) but is subordinate to the Father who is God Almighty. 

 

I think you Should take an English class. Seriously this is ridiculous. 

Ephesians 1:3

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

the God of who? Jesus! Basic grammar, It is clear that Jesus has a God. 

As for 1 Corinthians 8:6, lets have a look at it again. 

Verse 5, “5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”)” as you can see Paul is distinguishing gods from lords now since Paul has already mentioned “gods” then the meaning of “lords” means masters now as we read further in the context in verse 6 Paul says, “, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

Paul crystal clearly says, “yet for us there is but one God, the Father,...”

Paul’s calls God “the Father”. Not the son nor Holy Spirit nor the trinity. 

Paul betrays Jesus as an instrument used by God to create things. And through whom they live for God the Father. 

“...and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

as we can clearly see Paul sees Jesus as not God Almighty, rather subordinate to God almighty. Also the context is pretty clear that the term “lord” here means “Master”.

now the fact that Paul believes Jesus is a God that is subordinate to God the Father contradicts Shema, the context of the Shema Affirms the Unitarian theology”

Go read “is Jesus a liar or a madman” thread and read my recent reply to Leslie P. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^ Thank you Brother for you posts. I can tell you that in the past, I have spent many, many hours having these debates with people like 'David'. I can tell you that in almost every case, they are completely useless and a waste of time. Like I said in previous posts, I grew up in the Christian Church and spent many years studying the Bible. Whatever verses you quote, they will quote other verses and interpret them to mean the opposite of what you are saying. The main problem with quoting the Bible is that First, most of it is not the words of Jesus, but words of people who came hundreds of years after he left the earth and interpreted what he said without having him(Jesus) to correct them. Second, even the parts that are the words of Jesus(peach be upon him) are a translation of a translation of a translation (from the Original Ahramaic to Greek, to Latin, then the English). So to find precise meaning in the is pretty much impossible. You can find general meanings, like the fact that Jesus taught people to love each other, help the poor, be kind to neighbors, don't lie, cheat, etc. But these are things which almost every religion, including Islam, teaches also. 

This is one of the reasons why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose to reveal the Holy Quran to Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h). To clarify what had been made murky by all the different texts and opinions that were in circulation (and are still in circulation) regarding Jesus(peace be upon him). Someone who is on a Muslim website who will not even consider whether the Quran is the word of God and that Prophet Muhammad is a Messenger of God, like Jesus was, even though the Quran directly talks about Jesus and his holy mother Mary in a clear, direct, and insightful way, that person is not a sincere person and is here only to argue and not to learn, IMHO. That's why I stopped having these debates. As Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) said, 'There is enough light for those who wish to see'. For those who don't wish to see, all the light in the universe will not make them see, because each human being is endowed by their Creator, God(s.w.a) with free will, so they can choose to see or not. 

Edited by Abu Hadi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/15/2020 at 7:29 AM, al-Muttaqin said:

In Isaiah's passage it clearly shows that the Israelites, if they follow God, already have salvation

No - it says

22 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

22 “Turn to me and be saved,
    all you ends of the earth;
    for I am God, and there is no other.

Not just the Israelite nation but the whole world is invited to recieve God's salvation.  That is an offer open to us today as well.

On 7/15/2020 at 7:29 AM, al-Muttaqin said:

by Jewish roots, I mean read the New Testament "Gospels"

Yes in the Gospels - Have a look at the last chapter of Luke.  Also many places in Matthew, for instance, says - To fulfill the words of the prophets.

On 7/15/2020 at 7:29 AM, al-Muttaqin said:

reading the Old Testament through post-3rd Century Christian interpretation

The Gospels (and the rest of the New Testament) were all writen in the first century.  I'm reading the Old Testament through the interpritation of those who knew Jesus and and witnessed his life.  See the tesimony of John - 1 John chapter 1

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We write this to make our joy complete.

It is a wonderful fact that I meet with the living God each day and walk in the certainty of the eternal life he gives.  What a joy and privilage and it is open to all who respond to God's invitaion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

The Gospels (and the rest of the New Testament) were all writen in the first century. 

Not the originals as I have shown rationally and through verses. Yet you arrogantly deny verses. 

 

4 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2

This what the Pauline author would say in hopes you would believe in their Hellenistic beliefs mixed with truth. 

See my recent reply to Leslie P on “is Jesus a liar or a madman” then I’ll show something instore for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/16/2020 at 10:24 AM, Northwest said:

You aren’t interested in learning anything. You are only interested in hearing yourself talk and in converting people over to the Party of Satan (polytheism) and Hell.

I’m sorry if I sound harsh, but I am really tired of the truth being perverted and slandered by the enemies of (the) God. I am tired of Christian shirk and arrogance.

HI There @Northwest I see you have labled yourself as an Agnostic. Could you explain what you mean by that? 

What makes you think that I am perverting and slandering the truth?  You must have a very clear understanding of what the truth is to be able to make this claim.

I'm sorry if you see me as arrogant, that is not my intention.  I am trying to explain my understanding and experience of the truth.

Please could you do the same?  What is your understanding and experience of the truth?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:
20 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

The Gospels (and the rest of the New Testament) were all writen in the first century. 

Not the originals as I have shown rationally and through verses. Yet you arrogantly deny verses. 

Have a look at this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible#Table_IV:_New_Testament

Wikipedia not a Christian website

Or this https://www.bethinking.org/bible/the-dating-of-the-new-testament

And see this quote

"William F. Albright wrote, 'We can already say emphatically that there is no long any basis for dating any book of the New Testament after about AD 80"

2 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

This what the Pauline author

It wasn't writen by Paul but by John

2 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Yet you arrogantly deny verses. 

I want to ask you a question. - Is that okay?

If you had a very bad illness and you were about to die.  Then you found a doctor who could cure you and you became better and healthy again.  Later you meet a person who has the same inllness and is about to die.  What would you do, would you spend your time critizing the doctors that he had been to and telling him how sick he was, or would you tell him about the wonderfull, life transforming cure you had found and recomend the doctor to him?

Please answer this question - thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

wasn't writen by Paul but by John

No proof, all Scholars agree the authors are anonymous. I said Pauline author ( a person who’s a follower of Paul). Go read the my recent reply to Lelie P as I have told you before. 

 

21 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

If you had a very bad illness and you were about to die.  Then you found a doctor who could cure you and you became better and healthy again.  Later you meet a person who has the same inllness and is about to die.  What would you do, would you spend your time critizing the doctors that he had been to and telling him how sick he was, or would you tell him about the wonderfull, life transforming cure you had found and recomend the doctor to him?

I already showed you clear arguments and verses yet you deny them arrogantly and refuse to use your intellect rather you go after wishful thinking that has no basis. 

You cure is your brain which has rationality. Not sweet talk, that works with girls not a rational seeking mind. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Dave follower of The Way Watch what happens with this messianic Jew. 

Your doctrine makes you look like an absolute idiot that’s closest word i can get close to. Evan an atheist appreciates at the very least the rationality of a Jew and a Muslim. Btw the Torah wasn’t compiled by Moses.

Edited by THREE1THREE

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 7/18/2020 at 12:55 PM, THREE1THREE said:

You cure is your brain which has rationality. Not sweet talk, that works with girls not a rational seeking mind. 

Do I note a degree of prejudice against women?  Also possibly a veiled insult?

Anyway you didn't answer my question - Could you answer it? Thank you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...