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In the Name of God بسم الله
Ejaz

Are Christians polytheists from a Shiite perspective?

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:salam:

Quoting Greater sins:

Quote

Christians Are Polytheists Too

The Christians believe in the trinity of the Godhead. The Father (God), The Son (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost (Jibrīl). They believe that each of them have a special quality and that together they constitute the Godhead. The Qur’an flays their assertion thus:

“Certainly they disbelieve who say, ‘Surely Allah is the third (person) of Three’; and there is no god but One God.” (Surah al-Mā’ida 5:73)

The Holy Qur’an clearly states that Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).) is not one-third of a god. He is the One and only One God.

The belief in Trinity is not exclusive to the Christians. Hindus and Buddhists also ascribe to it.

If this is true, why do we refer to them as ahle kitab, and why is marriage (of a certain type) permissible with them?

May Allah bless you all

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Yep, most believe or prefer the Triplety.

l do not know,but l figure marriage is 'permissible' because they are mis-believers rather than completely pagan heathens.

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The Quran is pretty clear, the trinitarians are polytheists because they believe in a pagan illogical doctrine called the trinity which is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit who are distinct but are one and one in essence. 

Obviously trinitarians when trying to explain the trinity they are not consistent they either fall in the world of Modalism, trithiesm,God made up of three parts , or the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit make up a time called God or God is omnipresent and not, omnipotent and not , Omniscient and not at the exact same time. 

As for the Arians(that includes the nostorians, Jehova witnesses,) they are also Mushrik since the believer jesus is also divine the literal son of God.

then you have the adoptionist which are the nostorians today and the christadelphians, they are also considered Mushrik.  

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11 hours ago, Ejaz said:

why is marriage (of a certain type) permissible with them?

Many jurist say it is haram, except for a few, many Jurists have not understood the trinity only recently some understood that majority of “Christians” believe in the doctrine of the trinity and rarely do you find Christians believing jesus was just a prophet of God and a messiah.

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3 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Are there nowadays christian groups who could be considered as nonpolytheists? 

There are plenty of Unitarian christians out there who do not believe in the trinity.

The trinity isn't a belief in three separate Gods though, just three "forms" in which God reveals himself to mankind. Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. They believe all three of these forms to be the same God.

It's kind of hard to explain, but if you have God the Father he is still at the same time; God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They aren't three separate entities, just three different ways of God revealing himself to man & likely has something to do with numerology, but I don't know why the Christians have this belief.

Edited by Abdul-Hadi

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2 hours ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

There are plenty of Unitarian christians out there who do not believe in the trinity.

The trinity isn't a belief in three separate Gods though, just three "forms" in which God reveals himself to mankind. Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. They believe all three of these forms to be the same God.

It's kind of hard to explain, but if you have God the Father he is still at the same time; God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. They aren't three separate entities, just three different ways of God revealing himself to man & likely has something to do with numerology, but I don't know why the Christians have this belief.

It’s called Modalism 

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2 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Are there nowadays christian groups who could be considered as nonpolytheists? 

Yes their are a rare minority who believe jesus was just a Messenger and prophet of God these are the true Unitarians 

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What do you think of the discussion regarding this in The Study Qur’an by Seyyed Hossein Nasr:

Quote

“In addition to reaffirming the full humanity of Jesus, the present verse commands Christians to say not “Three.” This is understood as a command to abandon the doctrine of God as Trinity. Here they are merely told to refrain from asserting this doctrine, as it is “better” for them. In 5:73, Christians who call God “Three” are more seriously criticized, but this verse is embedded in a larger discussion that seems to be addressing those Christians who took not only Jesus, but also his mother, Mary, to be divine (5:73c). In both the present verse and 5:73, however, the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity as three ‘persons,’ or hypostases, ‘within’ the one God is not explicitly referenced, and the criticism seems directed at those who assert the existence of three distinct ‘gods,’ an idea that Christians themselves reject...

“Despite these strong criticisms of Christian trinitarian doctrine as well as the implication through through juxtaposition in 5:72–73 that Christian beliefs in the divinity of Jesus, and in God as the third of three can be understood as a kind of shirk (ascribing partners unto God), Islamic Law never considered Christians to be “idolaters” (mushrikūn) and accepted Christians’ own assertions of monotheistic belief, maintaining the clear distinction the Quran itself makes between idolaters (mushrikūn) and the People of the Book.”

@Qa'im @Abu Hadi 

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I'll be honest and tell you that I haven't even begun to read any of the commentary yet unless I come across ayat that doesn't make sense to me on the initial reading. I was "randomly" reading a lot as well, but just started to read the Quran cover to cover last night (finished Al-Imran for the second time about twenty minutes ago).

I will say that this commentary makes way more sense than the idea that Christians are idolaters because of their belief of one God in three distinct aspects/characters.

I myself never believed and will not ever believe that Trinitarian Christians are polytheists because I used to be one and I know that I wasn't a polytheist...


The Study Quran is truly a blessing, the best $39.99 that I have spent in a very long time, if not the best ever. I've gotten so much out of this translation already compared to others that I've tried to read and only got halfway through Surah 2 before I gave up and said "I can't possibly read this and make sense of it". I know, I know "It's not the same as reading it in Arabic" but I can't understand Arabic and my attempts to try and learn so far have fallen flat (learning disability/memory problems and whatnot), but I'm still hoping that when my brain clears up a bit that I'll be able to at least pick up enough to make it through the shorter Surahs.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created me as he did, and he had a great reason for doing so although I don't know what reason that is right now but I live with the hope that he will reveal it to me sometime sooner than later.

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10 hours ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

Christians are idolaters because of their belief of one God in three distinct aspects/characters.

Christian believe God is the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. Now the Son is Jesus  if God is taking different modes then That’s Modalism which is still shirk you are lowering God and associating Him with His creation, if you believe in one God in three characters that’s a another form of Modalism except it’s a lot more irrational I.e God is omnipresent and at exact same time not, Omnipotent and at the exact same time not, Omniscient and at the exact same time not. 

Plus the Quran is correct when it says, they say Allah is the third of three.

in 1 Corinthians 8:6, Paul makes it clear that the Father Is God himself I.e the term “the Father” is attributed to God not “the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit” otherwise would have said, “there is only one God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” 

if you we look at Ephesians 1:3 Paul makes is clear that Jesus has a God. 

So when the trinitarians try to explain the trinity it’s either they fall into the world of Modalism, trithism, God made up of three parts, or the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit make up a team called “God”. In other words the fall into all kinds of heresies without realising it. 

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51 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Plus the Quran is correct when it says, they say Allah is the third of three.

Where?

More important than this misuse of what is Revealed, ayats 58:6-7 explain.

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56 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Paul makes it clear that the Father Is God himself

1] You are citing Satan-Saul who was renamed St. Paul.

2] Not all Christians understand it the way you convey this citation: Like in the Church l grew-up in, the designation "father" was who you listened to because in that culture two millennium ago, children were taught by their fathers and who they had to listen to.

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On 6/9/2020 at 8:18 AM, hasanhh said:

Where?

Surah 5:72-73

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

Saul the imposter, was a dualist, I was pointing out that in his letters Paul didn’t believe in the trinity rather he was dualist and believed “the Father” is God, paul calls God “the Father” the same way we call God “Allah”, in 1 Corinthians 8:6

“6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”

Jesus himself worshiped God and denied being God and many times and makes it clear that he was sent by God which clearly means he is a Messenger of God. 

So when the Quran says “certainly they disbelieved who say Allah is the third of three” it is indeed true since they believe the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one who are the same essence but are distinct. Now we that we have established That the Father is God Almighty himself and not the trinity, the fact that they say they are DISTINCT and share the same ESSENCE shows that they believe in three Gods and Allah whom they call “the Father” is the third of three in the trinity. Now obviously the trinitarians will try to say otherwise they will into other heresies. 

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1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

ayats 58:6-7 explain.

Allah is simply making it clear that nothing is hidden from Him and He is with you everywhere you are never alone. And when your with ur boys Allah is also present watching and hearing everything.

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21 hours ago, Ejaz said:

If this is true, why do we refer to them as ahle kitab, and why is marriage (of a certain type) permissible with them?

You could also ask why are the Hindus not Ahl ul Kitab when the christian are? Maybe because there was no Hindus in Arabia at the time of the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Where as there was Christians. On the other hand there was followers of the pre-Islamic Arab religion. These followers was two kind. The idolators and the hanif's. The latter was people such as the prophets own family that had retained the original message of Abraham. The Christians in Yathrib would probably have been mostly non-trinitarian that had fled the Roman rule in al-Sham. The Zorostrians at the time was strictly monotheist and iconoclastic. When the Greeks conquered Achaemenid Persian in 328 BC they imposed their influence on the Persian society. Including religion. So both in Seleucid and the Parthian periods Idol worship was introduced. There was even a trinity of God (Ahuramazda) and the two celestial beings Anahita and Mithra. When the Sassanids took over from the Parthians they started to cleanse Zoroastrianism and restore the old monotheistic belief. That is probably why Zoroastrianism is mentioned as a monotheistic belief in the Quran. On the other hand The Gathas of Zoroastrianism doesn't mention Abraham and neither does the Hindu Upanishads though both the Gathas and the Upanishads clearly says that there is only one God. The Hindus of cause also has a trinity in Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva though their Upanishads clearly says that there is only one God.
On the other hand you might argue that even though the Torah very much relates to Abraham there is no mention of either hell nor of Judgement day in the Torah. Jews simply doesn't believe in hell and Judgement day. Zoroastrians on the other hand believe in hell which they call "house of deceit" and in the final judgement. Judaism does not have a trinity so that may be why they are accepted as Ahl ul Kitab inspite of rejecting hell and Judgement day.
The new testament doesn't mention any trinity either. It is completely made up by Christian theologians. Most of the non-trinitarian Christians in antiquity probably converted to Islam. Especially as most of them lived in the middle east. If the Christians really read their book they would not find any justification for the trinity. Some do and that is why a few non-trinitarian Christians pop up in modern times too such as Jehovah's witnesses. Though Jehovah's witnesses also reject Hell fire like the Jews.

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12 minutes ago, Revert1963 said:

reject Hell fire like the Jews.

The Jews do Believe in hell and paradise, they refer to ancient traditions that talk about hell and paradise. 

Even the Quran shows that the Jews believed in hell and the hereafter. 

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14 minutes ago, Revert1963 said:

Christians pop up in modern times too such as Jehovah's witnesses.

They are mushrik they are dualist like Paul.

quran says they have disbelieved who say jesus is the son of Allah or adopted Jesus. 

Today we have the nostorians who subscribe to the adoptionist theology before they used to have a literal sonship theology. 

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On 6/9/2020 at 9:52 AM, THREE1THREE said:

The Jews do Believe in hell and paradise, they refer to ancient traditions that talk about hell and paradise. 

What ancient traditions? I suggest you ask your local rabbi. Clasical Judaism does not have a hell. They have a place called Sheol which is just a dull place for the dead, but there is no punishment in it. Neither do they have judgement day nor any punishment thereafter. In Judaism punishment is in this life.
Some Jewish sects like the one that produced the Qumran scrolls began to entertain thoughts about hell around 100 AD or so inspired by the Tartarus from Greek mythology. However they all remained fringe.
In modern rabbinic Judaism the place called "Gehinnom" is in no way like Hell in Christianity, Jahannam in Islam, Tartarus in Greek mythology, the "house of deceit" in Zoroastrianism, Naraka in Hinduism and Buddhism nor similar concepts of punishment in the afterlife. The Judaic "Gehinnom" is a place for the purification of souls before they enter heaven. It is not even like the Catholic purgatory that is also a place for the purification of souls. The difference is that there is no punishment in the The Judaic "Gehinnom".  I was really surprised to learn this in a debate with a rabbi I had some time ago. I knew they had some kind of "purgatory" but apparently it has no punishment and no suffering. I thought about saying to the rabbi that this must be the reason why Natanyahu behaves the way he does, but I was polite and did not say that.

On 6/9/2020 at 9:55 AM, THREE1THREE said:
On 6/9/2020 at 9:38 AM, Revert1963 said:

Christians pop up in modern times too such as Jehovah's witnesses.

They are mushrik they are dualist like Paul.

Jehovah's witnesses may be dualistic, but they are still non-trinitarian Christians.

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Why l disagree with this:

7 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

Saul the imposter, was a dualist, I was pointing out that in his letters Paul didn’t believe in the trinity rather he was dualist and believed “the Father” is God, paul calls God “the Father” the same way we call God “Allah”, in 1 Corinthians 8:6

Paul is the principle trinitarian. Example 2 Corinthians 13:14.

Quran instructs not to say "three" which includes "father.", Ayat 4:171

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On 6/10/2020 at 8:05 AM, hasanhh said:

Example 2 Corinthians 13:14.

Let’s have a look at the verse. 

14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Paul is saying may the “love of God” He is distinguishing God from Jesus. And the Holy Spirit is seen as a gift from God.

1 Thessalonians 4:8

“....the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.” 

On 6/10/2020 at 8:05 AM, hasanhh said:

Quran instructs not to say "three" which includes "father.", Ayat 4:171

 They call Allah “the Father”. 

So when the Christians say the trinity is “the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit who share same essence but are distinct but they are one. 

The fact that they say they share the same ESSENCE and they are Distinct that means the Holy Spirit and the Son share the same essence as the Father and they are Gods beside God Almighty. 

So points stands, so please put all the green marks on the corner of my comments :)

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Hello, everyone, I'm new to this site and excited to exchange views and learn from each other. See my profile for more on my personal background. 

As a devout Christian who practiced Islam for two years a long time ago, I offer that most Muslims grossly misunderstand the Christian faith and especially the doctrine of the Trinity. We Christ followers are monotheistic, like you are. We considered polytheism as heresy. We believe in one God. Our one God, however, has one nature in three "persons":  The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These "persons" are not "persons" as humanly defined. God is God; he is all powerful and can manifest Himself any way He wishes. He revealed Himself to the Jews in the form of a man named Jesus of Nazareth to not condemn the world, but to save the world and have eternal life by belief in Him and by God's grace alone through our faith. Jesus (100% God and 100% human) voluntarily died on the cross as part of God's plan of redemption of humanity, so that sinful humans could be reconciled with the perfect God again. The perfect God cannot accept ANY sin, big or small, into heaven. The only way to bridge this sin gap is by paying the debt of sin - which was done by sacrificing the blood of perfect animals in the Old Testament. Jesus was the ultimate "lamb" sacrifice, because he was perfect (as God in human form). God sacrificed himself for us, so that those who believe in what Jesus did for us and that he rose on Sunday from the dead, will have eternal life. It's a gift from God that we do not have to work for and "hope" we get into heaven. The Holy Spirit is what God leaves in our hearts as believers to help convict us of our sin and to help us through prayer and our personal relationships with our Father in Heaven. But again, our God is one God with one Nature in 3 Persons. 

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. God is God; he is all powerful and can manifest Himself any way He wishes. He revealed Himself to the Jews in the form of a man named Jesus of Nazareth

It is actually very problematic and dwelling with something to try to understand how it is possible that three are one essence but different persons will lead to shirk and kufur. When God talked to Musa (عليه السلام) directly, He brought the angel of the Lord that appeared as burning bush and voice came from it. The angel and the voice was nothing but creations that have different essence from God. What manifested was the God words/message towards Musa (عليه السلام) with created voice etc.

If we follow the same concept, then Jesus (عليه السلام) would be not God in same essence but he would be a creation of God that manifest words and signs of God. It is very very different from trinity that claims they are all same essence.

What I believe is that Jesus (عليه السلام) never claim that he was God but rather people in the time of Isa (عليه السلام) consider him to be Rabbi, Messiah and the Prophet and not God. And that Jesus becoming God was an development concept that started after crucifixion of Jesus till the third century.

One of the enduring findings of modern scholarship on the New Testament and early Christianity over the past two centuries is that the followers of Jesus, during his life, understood him to be human through and through, not God. People saw Jesus as a teacher, a rabbi, and even a prophet. Some people thought of him as the (very human) messiah. But he was born like everyone else and he was “like” everyone else. He was raised in Nazareth and was not particularly noteworthy as a youth. As an adult—or possibly even as a child—he became convinced, like many other Jews of his time, that he was living near the end of the age, that God was soon to intervene in history to overthrow the forces of evil and to bring in a good kingdom here on earth. Jesus felt called to proclaim this message of the coming apocalypse, and he spent his entire public ministry doing so.

Eventually Jesus irritated the ruling authorities during a trip he made to Jerusalem, and they had him arrested and tried. He was brought before the governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, and after a short trial he was convicted on charges of political insurgency: he was claiming to be the Jewish king when only the Roman overlords who were in charge of Palestine and the rest of the Mediterranean could appoint a king. As a political troublemaker he was condemned to a particularly ignominious death, by crucifixion. And as far as the Romans were concerned, that’s where his story ended... -
How Jesus Became God, Bart Ehrman

- There is reason why you can find verses like:

Therefore when the people saw the sign which he had performed, they said, "This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world" (John 6:14).

This is the definition of Prophethood, this following verse indicate that Jesus was Prophet whom God sended to the Jews:

For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told me (John 12:49-50).

Quote

As a devout Christian who practiced Islam for two years a long time ago,

What happened and why did you stop?

Edited by Abu Nur

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Abu Nur, 

I'm just starting with this site and not familiar with the format, so I'm not even sure this response will post properly. I thought I would receive emails or something notifying me that responses to my post are here, but nothing like this happened. I guess we must check our accounts periodically to see updates?

To quickly answer your last question, why did I stop Islam. The better question is, why did I even start Islam? I was naive and "converted" only to make my future husband happy. He's an Iraqi Shi'a and would not marry me unless I was Muslim (even though this is NOT what Islam says). I thought it would be simple - no pork, no alcohol. Well, it was much deeper than that -- so many rules, regulations, laws to follow and keep up with. And, 6 months into our marriage, I discovered that Muslims have a fundamental difference from Christ-followers: Muslims do not believe Jesus was crucified. I believe this occurred, 100%, with all my heart, soul, and mind. I have my entire life. I immediately stopped Islam - my heart was never into Islam, anyway, it's only legalistic and about rules and following laws. After our divorce, I ran back to Christ and learned who He is for real, and accepted him into my heart forever. 

Now I have a much deeper understanding of who Christ is, and I am nurturing my personal relationship with Him daily. I believe the Bible is true, uncorrupted, and the inspired word of God, written by men. Jesus was very clear that He was God - the doctrine of the Trinity is, in fact, Biblical. It wasn't "made up" by councils. Anyway, he very simply told everyone that he is the only way to heaven. He came to this world not to judge and condemn, but to save the world. God demanded that humans pay a penalty for their sins. Why? Because God is perfect and does not tolerate any sin in his presence, not even one "little mean thought."  Sin of any size separates us from the perfect God, preventing us from being able to be in heaven in his presence. So how do we reconcile ourselves with the perfect God? In the Old Testament, God commanded Jews to pay their penalties for their sins through the sacrifice of PERFECT blood of animals. But priests had to sacrifice over and over and over again, trying to make God "happy."  Israel was God's chosen nation and he was using them as part of his long-term plan of redemption of all humanity. Throughout the days of the Old Testament, the coming of Jesus was prophesied. 

God knew that the only way he could reconcile his children with him was to sacrifice HIMSELF - who is perfect - and those who believe in what he did thru his self-sacrifice, would enter heaven after death.  He did this by manifesting himself as a human (Jesus). Jesus was sinless/perfect. He was 100% God and 100% human. It was prophesied and fulfilled that he was flogged and crucified. On that Sunday, he rose from the dead in front of about 500 witnesses, beating death. He then ascended to heaven 40 days later leaving no earthly body behind. Even WITNESSES refused to believe who Jesus was - after seeing him die on the cross, come back from the dead, and perform so many miracles during his ministry. He said repeatedly that those who turn away from their sins, believe that he was crucified and rose, and that he was in fact God in flesh, will have forgiveness and eternal life. The gift from God of eternal life to believers is that: a free GIFT, by God's grace alone, through faith. Christ followers, sure, are called to love God, love our neighbors, and do good deeds to demonstrate our faith and to become more Christ-like every day. But we do not believe that God bases salvation on good deeds or works alone. God knows that humans will NEVER be good enough, NEVER be able to work hard enough, NEVER be sin-free enough, for God's perfection. Sin incurs a debt to God that must be paid, and he did that for us through Jesus Christ. 

So I will never leave Christ again for any reason, because Christ is the only one who guarantees my eternal life in Heaven with our holy God by his grace and through my faith alone. Why people reject Christ and this eternal gift of life with our Lord is beyond me, but this is why I share the good news of Christ. I want everyone to KNOW 100% that they will go to heaven, but the only way they will have this guarantee is thru Christ. 

Some Bible verses about the divinity of Jesus:

Jesus said to them, 'My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.' For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:17-18).
"Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, 'Yes, you know me, and you know where I am from. I am not here on my own, but he who sent me is true. You do not know him, but I know him because I am from him and he sent me'" (John 7:28-29).
"Then they asked him, 'Where is your father?' 'You do not know me or my Father,' Jesus replied. 'If you knew me, you would know my Father also'" (John 8:19) "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58). "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

What about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, "I am God's Son"? Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.' Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp." (John 10:36-39).

If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.' Philip said, 'Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.' Jesus answered: 'Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.'" (John 14:7-11, 20).

Best! :)

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To quickly answer your last question, why did I stop Islam. The better question is, why did I even start Islam? I was naive and "converted" only to make my future husband happy. He's an Iraqi Shi'a and would not marry me unless I was Muslim (even though this is NOT what Islam says). I thought it would be simple - no pork, no alcohol. Well, it was much deeper than that -- so many rules, regulations, laws to follow and keep up with. And, 6 months into our marriage, I discovered that Muslims have a fundamental difference from Christ-followers: Muslims do not believe Jesus was crucified. I believe this occurred, 100%, with all my heart, soul, and mind. I have my entire life. I immediately stopped Islam - my heart was never into Islam, anyway, it's only legalistic and about rules and following laws. After our divorce, I ran back to Christ and learned who He is for real, and accepted him into my heart forever. 

Thank you for telling this and I understand your situation. And I respect your decision and believe what you did is the right thing to stick in Christianity if you sincerely believe it is the truth and it will help you better to come close to God. In Islam, any person who believe in religion they hold is the truth and follow it sincerely will get salvation, no matter even if he is Jew, Christian, Muslim or even a Budhist or Hindu. God is very loving and merciful to His creations.

Quote

So I will never leave Christ again for any reason, because Christ is the only one who guarantees my eternal life in Heaven with our holy God by his grace and through my faith alone. Why people reject Christ and this eternal gift of life with our Lord is beyond me, but this is why I share the good news of Christ. I want everyone to KNOW 100% that they will go to heaven, but the only way they will have this guarantee is thru Christ. 

As the principles and words of Jesus are nothing but Wisdom's, Words of God, guidance and salvation. We don't reject this and we follow them and act upon them. We don't reject the eternal gift of life that God gives, and we believe that God will give the life to sincerely faithful ones who believe in Him. This same principle have been taught by all Prophets:

O you who believe! answer (the call of) Allah and His Messenger when he calls you to that which gives you life; and know that Allah intervenes between man and his heart, and that to Him you shall be gathered.

When you mean that people reject Christ, we only reject the concept of Incarnation, because we don't believe that God takes different creation forms, that would be a limitation to Him. But even if we reject it, we don't reject Christ and that everything he said is from God, as we believe in this verse:

For I did not speak on my own initiative, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told me (John 12:49-50).

The crucifixion did occurred and people who saw it saw Jesus there. But Muslims do not believe that he was The Jesus, rather it was made appear to look like Jesus. We believe that truly he ascended to heaven that day and one day he will return and establish the Kingdom of God in earth.

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But we do not believe that God bases salvation on good deeds or works alone. God knows that humans will NEVER be good enough, NEVER be able to work hard enough, NEVER be sin-free enough, for God's perfection. Sin incurs a debt to God that must be paid, and he did that for us through Jesus Christ. 

Yes, not alone.

You are right that we are never good enough to work so hard and do good deeds that our sins would be paid off, but as you said trough Jesus Christ it is possible. Here you believe that Jesus is God, but we take same approach and believe only God can save us trough Him and purify us from Sins. In one of our prayers we say:

And I am now seeking refuge with Your generosity and fleeing from You to You.
Hoping for promise that You have taken as regard pardoning those who possess good convictions about You. -Du'a Abu Hamza Al Thumali

We have faith and hope for God to forgive our sins and we worship Him because He is worthy of worship as Prophet David said: “I called to the Lord, who is worthy of praise” (vs. 3). and by doing good deeds we want to do what God want us to do and what God loves. We can never reach salvation by ourselves and it is Only God who can guide us to the right path and save us.

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anyway, it's only legalistic and about rules and following laws.

As for my final point, this is very wrong statement, Islam is much more than rules and following laws. Everything you find from all teaching of previous Prophets you will find it in Qur'an, everything what Jesus taught you can find it in Qur'an. They all have the same principle, believe in one God, worship Him and follow His laws. Many Jews and Christians will rarely study Islam because for them it is a wrong religion, so how they even care to know what Islam teach in first place?

Edited by Abu Nur

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5 hours ago, Angela in Virginia said:

I believe the Bible is true, uncorrupted, and the inspired word of God, written by men.

The Bible had to undergo many transformations and it is proven that many of the footnotes written by scribes were indited within the biblical text, therefore the notion of the Bible being uncorrupted is false.

5 hours ago, Angela in Virginia said:

Jesus was very clear that He was God

‘My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28)

The Bible says that Jesus was tempted, and also state

s that God cannot be tempted.

‘for God cannot be tempted by evil’ (James 1:13)

‘And he was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to him.’ (Mark 1:13)

’tempted in every way – just as we are’ (Heb. 4:15)

 

5 hours ago, Angela in Virginia said:

the doctrine of the Trinity is, in fact, Biblical. It wasn't "made up" by councils.

I challenge you to show me one Church Father from the first three centuries who clearly stated that the Holy Spirit is Co-Equal and Co-Eternal with the father, Ignatius or Tertullian said nothing of the sort, there are some early church fathers who did mention a ''triad'' or a ''trinity'', however, none of them claimed equal status, or ''supreme divinity'' for the three persons. All three persons were described in varying degrees, most believed the father to be the superior ''power'' or the ''generating force'', or the ''supreme deity''. According to the Church Fathers who were experts in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic while holding in their possessions the earliest of manuscripts - They believed that the son and the spirit were ''subordinates'' to the supreme deity, the Father. Nothing remotely close to Co-Equal and Co-Eternal. Although Tertullian did speak of a ''trinity'', he was not a trinitarian like the later fourth century trinitarians, he never believed that the Holy spirit was Co-Equal and Co-Eternal with the Father. 

I invite you to research this topic independently and see whether any early Church Father actually considered all three persons to be equally divine, take Tertullian for example. He can be easily misunderstood as supporting the later fourth century conception of the Doctrine of the Trinity. But a careful reading of his views will reveal that "Tertullian, like some of his predecessors (e.g., Justin), is open to charges of subordinationism. By employing terms like 'derivation' and 'portion' with regard to the Son, he gives the impression that the Son (and the Spirit) do not share in the totality of the divine substance". (see An Introduction to the Trinity by Declan Marmion and Rik Van Nieuwenhove, Cambridge, 2011, p. 62). This is why Tertullian was never fully accepted as a truly "orthodox" Christian by later trinitarians. 

 

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Yes, and no amount of political correctness about Abrahamic “unity” can change this.

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Oh yeah, another key point: Vicarious Redemption. A very Christian concept where you can be redeemed vicariously. You are absolved of personal sin through human sacrifice of another. This has been central to a lot of American policy, mainly use of collective punishment, like Agent Orange or nuclear weapons on foreign countries to make sure the DNA of their offspring is mutated. The word Holocaust actually comes from the Bible, it's a Hebrew word meaning sacrificial burnt offering, used in the context of the Cain and Abel story. This is why if you look at Bartelome des Casas paintings about how America dealt with the Natives, and also later with the African Americans, when they tied them up and burned them alive. It's a form of sacrifice. Genesis itself says that God finds the smell of burning flesh pleasing to the Lord (Gen 8:21). Of course, we know the real God doesn't like any of this, but the Christians had to justify that it is the case through a comedy of (intentional – ed.) mistranslations (spread by Saul the antisemitic, anti-Islamic imposter – ed.), giving colonizers the green light.

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7 hours ago, Angela in Virginia said:

I immediately stopped Islam - my heart was never into Islam, anyway, it's only legalistic and about rules and following laws.

  

On 7/8/2020 at 12:58 AM, Angela in Virginia said:

It's a gift from God that we do not have to work for and "hope" we get into heaven.

That’s exactly the kind of thing Satan says in order to discourage people from seeking the true religion, which is about self-discipline and hardship, not pleasing the nafs.

Satan, of course, was the original rebel and rule-breaker who was permitted by (the) God to continue his futile pursuit and thereby test mankind through appeal to the nafs.

Satan blasphemes: “(The) God is legalistic! He forces me to use the faculties He gave me, and to apply them wisely. No! I’m better than (the) God! His system is too legalistic!”

(The) God forbid and protect us from such Satanic, blasphemous notions and whisperings.

You are appealing to emotion rather than reason. Christianity’s embrace of irrationalism (Trinitarianism, Eucharist, blood sacrifice, etc.) leads straight to pagan barbarism.

The problem with Christianity as a belief system is that it detests self-discipline in the manner prescribed by both Judaism and Islam, hence idolatry and polytheism.

Idolatry and polytheism embraces wilful ignorance and disbelief as ends in themselves and as positive goods for Satan mankind’s supposed betterment.

Barbarism is what the Christian and pagan Nazis did to the Jewish side of my family in Poland: made them to be a “burnt offering” for some presumed higher purpose.

This kind of mentality endorses irrationalism and irresponsibility as an end in itself to define religious practice, and strangely enough underlies both Christianity as a belief-system, fascist politics, and (amazingly) the postmodernist, degenerate “cultural ‘Marxists’.”

The reaction to irrational, pagan Christianity in the West created precisely its mirror-image: the (even more irrational, pagan) anti-family, pro-gay, anti-religious, pro-eugenicist, pro-pagan youth movement.

(What amazes me is that many Muslims have been duped into blaming “the Jews” for cultural Marxism, when in fact the ruling liberal class is composed of old-line Anglo-Saxon WASP families. Think Ford, Astor, Rockefeller, Morgan, DuPont, et al., all of whom have backed Planned Parenthood, sexual deviation, depopulation, vaccines, abortion, birth control, eugenics, racialism, antisemitism, Nazism, fascism, cultural Marxism, gun control, disarmament/enslavement/control of the masses, etc. These Christian WASPs have certainly recruited useful idiots among minorities, including Zionist Jews, BLM blacks, et al. to advance their agendas.)

It’s why I rejected Christianity and, while still seeking, am (strongly?) leaning toward Islam, though my journey is not yet complete.

Edited by Northwest

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On 6/8/2020 at 10:20 AM, Ejaz said:

:salam:

Quoting Greater sins:

If this is true, why do we refer to them as ahle kitab, and why is marriage (of a certain type) permissible with them?

May Allah bless you all

That book is a bit on the extreme side for today (with all due respect to the author).  His book may have had relevance and perhaps still does, but not to the vast majority of Shia Muslims living in the West.  In any case...

Are certain Muslims not mushrik? What about those "wahabis" who believe God has a physical face with physical hands and a physical throne?  

But more deeper than this...

Are any of us true Muwahids?  

 

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On 7/10/2020 at 2:18 AM, Northwest said:

  

That’s exactly the kind of thing Satan says in order to discourage people from seeking the true religion, which is about self-discipline and hardship, not pleasing the nafs.

Satan, of course, was the original rebel and rule-breaker who was permitted by (the) God to continue his futile pursuit and thereby test mankind through appeal to the nafs.

Satan blasphemes: “(The) God is legalistic! He forces me to use the faculties He gave me, and to apply them wisely. No! I’m better than (the) God! His system is too legalistic!”

(The) God forbid and protect us from such Satanic, blasphemous notions and whisperings.

You are appealing to emotion rather than reason. Christianity’s embrace of irrationalism (Trinitarianism, Eucharist, blood sacrifice, etc.) leads straight to pagan barbarism.

The problem with Christianity as a belief system is that it detests self-discipline in the manner prescribed by both Judaism and Islam, hence idolatry and polytheism.

Idolatry and polytheism embraces wilful ignorance and disbelief as ends in themselves and as positive goods for Satan mankind’s supposed betterment.

Barbarism is what the Christian and pagan Nazis did to the Jewish side of my family in Poland: made them to be a “burnt offering” for some presumed higher purpose.

This kind of mentality endorses irrationalism and irresponsibility as an end in itself to define religious practice, and strangely enough underlies both Christianity as a belief-system, fascist politics, and (amazingly) the postmodernist, degenerate “cultural ‘Marxists’.”

The reaction to irrational, pagan Christianity in the West created precisely its mirror-image: the (even more irrational, pagan) anti-family, pro-gay, anti-religious, pro-eugenicist, pro-pagan youth movement.

(What amazes me is that many Muslims have been duped into blaming “the Jews” for cultural Marxism, when in fact the ruling liberal class is composed of old-line Anglo-Saxon WASP families. Think Ford, Astor, Rockefeller, Morgan, DuPont, et al., all of whom have backed Planned Parenthood, sexual deviation, depopulation, vaccines, abortion, birth control, eugenics, racialism, antisemitism, Nazism, fascism, cultural Marxism, gun control, disarmament/enslavement/control of the masses, etc. These Christian WASPs have certainly recruited useful idiots among minorities, including Zionist Jews, BLM blacks, et al. to advance their agendas.)

It’s why I rejected Christianity and, while still seeking, am (strongly?) leaning toward Islam, though my journey is not yet complete.

The problem with Christianity as a belief system is that it detests self-discipline in the manner prescribed by both Judaism and Islam, hence idolatry and polytheism.

Would you mind sharing with me exactly who you believe Jesus is, and why, please? I'd like to understand more about your worldview. I appeal to what Jesus taught, not emotion as you state in your post. Would you like to discuss specifically the legal aspect of religion? I'm happy to do that. Let me know. 

So Satan is Satan for what, disobeying the 613 Jewish laws? Are those laws God-made, or man-made? Please explain.

Jesus came to fulfill the law and to FREE us from the bondage of sin, and to free us from legalism. Think deeply about this, friend:  Jesus, God incarnate, commands us to do 2 things:  1) Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength; and 2) love your neighbor as yourself.  If we do these two things - what happens? 

You can follow 613+ laws, rules, regulations, hadiths, Shari'a, etc, all day long and still have the wrong heart. Right? I truly believe you have an erroneous image of who God truly is: God is love, he is relational. You make him out to be a horrific judge (he is a judge, of course, but in a different sense). Christ revealed God to us - and God's true nature -- love, joy, kindness, patience, self-control, peace, forebearance, forgiveness, goodness, gentleness. 

I'm anxious to learn why exactly you seem to reject Christ, and why you view God with the legalistic, demanding, judgmental characteristics that you do. 

The New Testament, especially the  book of John, clearly presents who Christ is. I encourage you to study it. 

Blessings. 

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On 6/9/2020 at 2:20 AM, Ejaz said:

:salam:

Quoting Greater sins:

If this is true, why do we refer to them as ahle kitab, and why is marriage (of a certain type) permissible with them?

May Allah bless you all

Christians who worship Jesus are, Christians who worship just God aren't. There is a big distinction there. 

Christians who understand the Jewish roots of Christianity would never worship Jesus.

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On 7/12/2020 at 9:16 AM, Angela in Virginia said:

1) Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength; and 2) love your neighbor as yourself.  If we do these two things - what happens?

Hi this is only true statement in your post without assuming Jesus [prophet Isa(as)] as god or something like that in shia hadiths mentioned from prophet Muhammad (pbu) said that Allah/God so much advised me through arch angel Gabriel/ Jibrael about loving & caring neighbors that I thought neighbors will inherit from each other and Satan disobeyed  law of Allah/God for bowing to prophet Adam (عليه السلام) .

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