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Guest SB9

Are Shi’as too Imam centered?

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13 minutes ago, realizm said:

then maybe Shias will prove to be 'Allah centric'. 

I don't think there's any obligations on Shias to prove to others that they are 'Allah centric' or 'Imam centric'. 

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32 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

I don't think there's any obligations on Shias to prove to others that they are 'Allah centric' or 'Imam centric'. 

I don't think there's any restriction to question it either. 

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1 minute ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Sure it's not a good idea to be obsessed what others think of us. 

One can have an objective mind and come to the conclusion that Shiism is Imam centric without giving any regards to what others think of us. 

 

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11 minutes ago, 786:) said:

One can have an objective mind and come to the conclusion that Shiism is Imam centric without giving any regards to what others think of us. 

It's the way we perceive. You see lot of discussion on Imams (عليهم اسلام) and I see the discussion as ma'refat of Imams (عليهم اسلام) and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

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7 hours ago, realizm said:

Okay. How many lectures about the akhlaq/hardships/eloquence of aimmah (عليه السلام) versus lectures about their teachings of tawhid? 

I hope you will understand my point now because for critical Shias like me, that's mostly what we mean by 'Imam centric'. 

You're too attached to numbers. 

All the lectures I've heard always have some elements tawhid, belief in God etc.

 Are you just talking about lectures? Don't forget about the countless books!

Also the topic of akhlaq links to the topic of God, since we're manifesting his attributes in our lives. 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

You're too attached to numbers. 

 

Since the topic is whether Shias are 'too' focused on Imams then I guess quantity is at the center of the debate. 

You will argue than one lecture about the perfect tawhid can be enough amongst a hundred lectures about the personalities of Aimmah... I will argue it doesn't. 

8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

 Are you just talking about lectures? Don't forget about the countless books!

Again numbers. Ask yourself. How many lectures does the average Shia attend in his life versus books read?

Ask yourself, what book title can you name instantly that evoke perfect understanding about Allah (عليه السلام). I am sure very few can name one, I included. 

8 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

Also the topic of akhlaq links to the topic of God, since we're manifesting his attributes in our lives. 

Please, that's not the issue here, you are going in circles. 

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On 6/5/2020 at 11:54 PM, Guest SB9 said:

However I have to say between the two schools of thought, Sunnis are more Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  and Qur’an centric to an extent. When I entered the Ja’fari school of thought, a lot of it is Imam Centric (not the school it self or even the Imams who are truly Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) centric), the current day Shi’as can tell you stories of Karbala etc, but can you guys describe the stories like the one of Musa AS?

Salam, 

I don't know as to why shia's should not be Imam centric! When it is clear to us that they are the chosen ones, they are the ones whom we have to follow & obey, they are the ones who are the Ulil Amr. For them Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said I am leaving behind two weighty things one being Qur'an while the other are Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), for them Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said hadith e manzilah, hadith e safina (Ark of Noah) etc. Now we have a clear picture in our sight, if we want the love of Allah, we have to follow & obey them. So if you say Shia's are Imam centric it automatically means Allah centric because the wilayah has been granted to Imams by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

And how can you say that Sunni's are Allah & Qur'an centric while they don't even believe in the wilayah of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)? 

If you have attended any majlis of Ashura or any other event, you would have heard all these stories & tafasir. Our majalis starts with the dhikr of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and ends on the dhikr of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  

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[Shakir 33:56] Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation.

Yusufali 33:56] Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Angels constantly sending blessings on Prophet (that includes Ahlulbayt), can we also say that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Angels are centric toward Prophet and His Family.  We are also asked to be centric toward Prophet and His Family.

 

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8 minutes ago, layman said:

[Shakir 33:56] Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation.

Yusufali 33:56] Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Angels constantly sending blessings on Prophet (that includes Ahlulbayt), can we also say that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Angels are centric toward Prophet and His Family.  We are also asked to be centric toward Prophet and His Family.

 

I agree with this sentiment to an extent. I am also a Sunni to Shia convert, and one thing that I’ve noticed is that there is an massive representation of the Imams. I would say yes Shiis by some extent are very Imam Centric.
 

Now is this problematic? Let say for example you were born the decade after Prophet Mohammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) died, would you go to the lecture of God, or lectures of how the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) lived for God and the values God wants of us? To get to know God we have to follow the examples of people who know God if that makes sense? An interesting point a friend of mine made once was that if God wanted he could just give us knowledge of him and that’s that. Why did he need to send down Prophets? The Prophets were a wasila to get to know God. If we believe that Ahlulbayt as are the spiritual successors of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) then can we use them as a wasila?

 

I believe we must truly know God and his justness, the Ahlulbayt can be used as a wasila to understand what God wants from us. However we must also focus on the nature of God, what God is, what his attributes are etc.

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Salam,

Knowing Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (the Rabb) is our first nature.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has put that nature in every human.  

The Prophethood and Imamat are installed into purified souls of chosen humans by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to serve as wasila so that humans will return to Him (عليه السلام) correctly.

The word Ulil AMR cover every aspect of life including worship.  Meaning we have to be with them in all our actions from this world to next world.  We cannot be disconnected with them.  We need their shafaat in the hereafter.

We need the Prophet and Imams so that our return to Him is perfected and accepted by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Meaning, if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) didn't see Prophethood and Imamat in us, even during prayer, when about to die or in the hereafter...we will be in big trouble.

What is sad, many of us will disregard the Prophethood and Imamat as soon as they learned to worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  They forget that that wasila is needed until the hereafter and in every action.

Many so-called early companions also trapped in the same scenario.  As long as we have Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), we are okay.  So they ignored Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and Ahlulbayt.

Imam centric is important and essential.  Imam means leader..leading the humans or his followers toward...nothing else..except to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) the Rabbul aalameen. Imams will not lead followers only to them and full stop.  Never. Imam will ONLY lead his followers to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in the shortest and correct way.  

The issue that will crop up later is when we are trying to be close to Ahlulbayt, and in the presence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and where will they (Ahlulbayt) stand during our worship.  Many will say that we and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone.  We forget the role of Ulil AMR in our worship to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Many will say, there exists duality or shirk.  

I believe that if only Prophethood and Imamate exist in our souls (and our own self vanished) during worship to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then that worship is correct.

 

 

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