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Guest Maryam

Is it permissible to make dua to Jesus?

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Guest Maryam

Is it permissible to make Dua to Mary the mother of Jesus Christ peace upon them, with the intention that they grant our prayers and Hajaat. They listen to the supplicant when they supplicate to her, but that Allah has given them this power and it is not independent of him.

I was talking to a catholic friend who told me this is intercession. Mary hears and grants his prayers in Jesus name.

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One cannot pray to Mary and Jesus(عليه السلام) or ask her for hajaats but we can intercede through them.

Edited by starlight
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1 hour ago, Guest Maryam said:

Is it permissible to make Dua to Mary the mother of Jesus Christ peace upon them, with the intention that they grant our prayers and Hajaat. They listen to the supplicant when they supplicate to her, but that Allah has given them this power and it is not independent of him.

I was talking to a catholic friend who told me this is intercession. Mary hears and grants his prayers in Jesus name.

we are only allowed to make dua to Allah, as explained clearly by Allah in the Quran.

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Guest Ser
2 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

Supplicating to Jesus son of Mary or Mary is shirk this is not intercession. 

 

2 hours ago, Allah Seeker said:

we are only allowed to make dua to Allah, as explained clearly by Allah in the Quran.

 

3 hours ago, starlight said:

One cannot pray to Hazrat Maryam(عليه السلام) or ask her for hajaats but we can intercede through her.

Asking Hazrat Maryam and supplicating to her with permission of Allah not allowed?  If many pray to Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Fatima and do dua to them why not to Maryam. Maryam is one of four masumeen so if people do it to Fatima why not pray to Jesus and Mary

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1 hour ago, Guest Ser said:

If many pray to Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Fatima and do dua to them why not to Maryam.

We don't pray to them. We pray to Allah and ask them to intercede for us.

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2 hours ago, Guest Ser said:

Asking Hazrat Maryam and supplicating to her with permission of Allah not allowed?  If many pray to Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Fatima and do dua to them why not to Maryam. Maryam is one of four masumeen so if people do it to Fatima why not pray to Jesus and Mary

Some Shia including myself don't pray to anybody other than Allah for anything, we even don't pray to anybody to intercede for us. We ask Allah for intercession if we want it, as He clearly indicated us to do in the QURAN, as well as the way of the Messenger ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).

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3 hours ago, Allah Seeker said:

Some Shia including myself don't pray to anybody other than Allah for anything, we even don't pray to anybody to intercede for us. We ask Allah for intercession if we want it, as He clearly indicated us to do in the QURAN, as well as the way of the Messenger ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding what the other poster means by "ask for intercession".

Isn't that still praying to someone other than Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

 

Edited by Abdul-Hadi

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46 minutes ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

I'm sorry, I'm not understanding what the other poster means by "ask for intercession".

Isn't that still praying to someone other than Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

Yes it is, but people think that praying to martyrs for help by asking them to intercede on our behalf is "intercession". Grammatically that is incorrect, as praying for intercession is not the same as intercession.

Many Shia have fallen into the trap of saying that they are doing intercession while in fact they are asking for it. I don't know how people can make such a mistake. 

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3 hours ago, Allah Seeker said:

Yes it is, but people think that praying to martyrs for help by asking them to intercede on our behalf is "intercession". Grammatically that is incorrect, as praying for intercession is not the same as intercession.

Many Shia have fallen into the trap of saying that they are doing intercession while in fact they are asking for it. I don't know how people can make such a mistake. 

Catholics have the same thing in essence. I never really understood it then and I still don't understand it now. If you're mentally asking a deceased human to intercede for you, at least to me, that seems like praying to them & the bible states that you should only pray to God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

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24 minutes ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

Catholics have the same thing in essence. I never really understood it then and I still don't understand it now. If you're mentally asking a deceased human to intercede for you, at least to me, that seems like praying to them & the bible states that you should only pray to God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Yes exactly. The standard answer to your above comment would be "Quran says that we should not consider martyred people as dead". But that didn't change much in my opinion. Just because they are "alive with their Lord" somewhere, does not negate the fact that Allah warns against this practice and that the messenger and his family are not recorded to have done so.

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9 hours ago, starlight said:

We don't pray to them. We pray to Allah and ask them to intercede for us.

I have not studied the topic of intercession very well.

But I find what you are saying contradicting.

why would you ask Allah to make Isa (عليه السلام) intercede for you. Or If you meant that you ask Isa (عليه السلام) to intercede for you, how do you know he hears your call?

I know about the verse that says:

 

Wa laa taquuluu li-man yuqtalo fii sabiilil-laahi‘amwaat. Bal‘ah-yaaa-’unw-wa laakil-laa tash-’uruun.
154. And say not of those who are slain in God’s cause, “ They are dead”: nay, they are alive , but you perceive it not.
 
But does this mean that they can hear us from anywhere and everywhere?, or is it angels that are near us that will deliver the message to them, and thereby they will intercede for us?
 
Edited by AkhiraisReal

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This is a trick question, I like it. In the Qur'an actually considering Jesus as begotten son of the Creator (the concept of the Creator procreating or being procreated (as we creatures do)) has been thoroughly condemned.

As for asking them to be intermediaries, I leave it to the thread. But one thing I do know is that the Creator is the most Merciful of all, by far, and any of His servants / the intermediaries will never go against His wish. That said, we can mention them in our prayers and pray for them in the same way beggars begging you might pray for your loved ones to receive something from you.

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Guest OnPoint

Du'a as in call Jesus, yes. Du'a as in prayer to Jeus, no. Language is contextual, I can serve humans and be their servant, but I can't worship them. In Arabic, both words for serving and worshiping is originally same, and calling and praying are same, but du'a that is condemned to other then God is the one that is inclusive of worship, otherwise, shut your mouth and never talk to a human again, because you can't even call their name or say something. 

Don't mix words up and play semantics games in an Agenda. All classical tafsir said du'a in context of where it's forbidden includes Worship or is even the true for of Worship and vice versa (Worship is Prayer).

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25 minutes ago, Guest OnPoint said:

shut your mouth and never talk to a human again, because you can't even call their name or say something. 

Actually we are talking about spiritual requests, which are never recorded to have been done by the prophet or his descendants to anyone other than Allah. I'm sure you agree that following the way/sunnah of those people is a must, right?

27 minutes ago, Guest OnPoint said:

but du'a that is condemned to other then God is the one that is inclusive of worship,

and how would you define that? Let us look at the evidence. The dua in surat ul hamd / al fatiha contains dua that is considered worship. We ask Allah for al sirat al mustaqeem to start with. What makes this dua worship compared to asking a human for help for instance? The real difference here is that the dua in worship is spiritual supplication. It is asking from the heart into the unseen world, with the assumption that the Hearer of Duas will hear us, and in this realm it is possible to not associate anyone with Him. It is possible to NEVER supplicate to others than Allah, and still lead a totally normal life.

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Guest OnPoint
1 hour ago, Allah Seeker said:

Actually we are talking about spiritual requests, which are never recorded to have been done by the prophet or his descendants to anyone other than Allah. I'm sure you agree that following the way/sunnah of those people is a must, right?

Prophet (s) and Imams (a) are directly guided by hearing revelation properly and themselves are foundation by which Angels turn to and where God's book of deeds resides. They are witnesses and the channel of God's sustenance and light. Also, they are themselves asylum, weapons, and missiles against devils so how can they seek help from others.

However, the Quran has for the sake arguments, and in that said if Mohammad (s) (God forbid) and his followers were ignorant, to seek the family of the reminder because there certainly would be one, and this is respect to knowledge but particularly both places contextualize more so with miracles although clarify it with guidance and knowledge as well.

Another verse says "those who give the book before you", and so this means the family of the reminder would be sought, as Quran shows neither Jews or Christians are reliable nor does this address the issue of miracles which is part of the context of what is to be sought from the family of the reminder if you don't know.

The witness of time if Mohammad (s) was ignorant, would be hidden, in the same way the Mahdi was hidden. And so that Quran else where said, if God for Mohammad (s) rhetorically to ask those who were sent before him did God ever appoint gods to be worshipped. 

Also the Quran talked about the family of the reminder in context of being an asylum against devils and starts of guidance and adornment for onlookers.  So there is no doubt, God forbid Mohammad (s) wasn't sure about this for sake of argument, he would be able tap into all Guides spiritually and see what they say, but particularly the family of the reminder which is the family of Mohammad but the Quran is saying, say for the sake of argument it wasn't, Mohammad (s) would've sought the family of the reminder which would be a different family and the Quran is commanding to seek the family of the reminder which it's pages have proven the necessity of and the perfect way God would guide humans, so say if Mohammad (s) forged the Quran, still, wouldn't God confirm the truth with his words? In this case, Mohammad (s) heart would be sealed and blind, and God would confirm still the truth with his words. And so the Quran is structure to confirm the Archetype religion which even includes have a consistent number which it has proven to be Twelve Successors with respect to the founder.

And so it says really, even if not open, the family of the reminder become hidden, Mohammad (s) would've sought them, and connected to them, and even the guide hidden and predecessors dead or some risen up (in case of Jesus risen up), he would've sought the answers for them say he was ignorant.

And so the Quran by putting Mohammad (s) to be included in the ask, shows, yes seek the family of Mohammad (s), but showed, even if Mohammad (s) didn't come, there was a family of the reminder to be sought and clergy of Christians and Jews didn't need to be relied upon.

The rhetorical nature of the question, God calculated keep in mind all the verses calculated to be about what Mohammad (s) would do for the sake of argument if he doubted or didn't know or if he forged it, still Quran shows by logic, what the guidance would be. In this way, in confirm the abstract religion has confirmed the particular form, which there is only one form of it because the rest have been corrupted or outdated their relevance.

In the same Mohammad (s) can talk to the family of the reminder even though all were dead except Jesus who was risen and Elyas who remained on earth but was hidden, it's saying, if he didn't know and you don't know, I'm telling you what to do. But it shows Mohammad (s) doesn't have doubt because the Quran shows the archetype family of the reminder and so proves the particular instance of it in this time.

And rope of God would be sought by Mohammad (s) if he didn't know. 

Now talking to dead people is not wrong, and asking them to guide him with respect to the issue of unity of God would be a kind of istaghatha spiritually and call upon them to use spiritual power because they are no longer out in the public.

And so God has proven beyond doubt with all these verses, that not only are the family of reminder a means to knowledge from God, but in context, shows, they can still manifest miracles and are still asylum from the sorcery and devils and weapons against the devils and arrows of God you can use to help you and you can see them beautified and adorned in vision as God has made those stars fair seeming to those who look.

And literature wise, there exists hadiths about istighatha, so you are wrong. There exists ones asking God to help by the Imams (a) spiritually, and there exists one that along with that, ask them (a) to help you, and others with regards to praying for you and seek forgiveness for you. All these type exist, and their is words from Imams (a) to show the family of the reminder is with you in your sleep and wake, in your hardship and ease, in your moments of peril and your moments of safety,  etc, but you don't know these because you don't research. And Quran confirms all this but you pay no attention.

And idols in Quran were condemned the following ways:

1. Attributing to God what we don't know (this applies to all leaders we don't know from God, can't attribute God what we don't and who we don't know he appointed)

2. The impossibility of them being near or equal to God's status, and hence the irrationality of not doing away with the word worship with respect to everything else, and not reserving a word of that indicates a level of love and exalting unique to God.

3. Intercession as in they do it without God's permission and approval or command. This is deemed impossible, as they can not help or intervene in a soul except if God permits. This type of intercession wasn't just about them praying for us but polytheists believed they acted on behalf of God. So we can see delegation is condemned with respect to sustaining us and helping us, but rather, the case is God's permission and command is directly related to this issue, and miracles are only done as well by his permission. So in this sense, we have to pray MORE SO to God for this intercession. But Quran didn't say you aren't to ask them intercession as well. It commanded both, seeking grace from God as well as from his Messenger. Seeking forgiveness from God and repenting to him, but also asking the Messenger to pray for you.  It didn't say just ask God to guide them by you and do miracles for you, it said along with that guidance you ask from God, ask the family of the reminder if you don't know for miracles and knowledge and guidance with respect to good deeds and the plan of God if you wish to participate in his plan.

4. It being just to stick to local leaders to confirm the ways of culture passed down generations to confirm by convenience our forefathers and remain blindly on the past generation (fathers) without condemning their ways.  It was total conjecture with no connection to the actual idols for so many but just an issue of culture and convenience.

5. With respect to many, it's saying, you think they were Angels but they are really Jinn, and not Jinn, but devils who through their friends who are sorcerers and they channel to them revelation, seek to misguide you, but you aren't aware of this hidden society and league of Jinn and Humans gathering to control humans through out the ages.  In particular, this is referring to those who sought help from Angels, they particularly were overwhelmed by devils and sorcery, and believed in the wrong forces, because they didn't rely on proof from God and didn't use the holy spirit to discern truth, but went to spiritually chaotically.  However, Ahlulbayt (a) are instances of the holy spirit and Quran confirms he helps believes by a spirit from him which hadiths confirm is the Imam (a) and say the light which is walking among humans, is the Imam (a) as well. 

6. With respect to planets and the earth or mountains guiding, it has a philosophy, of why God delegated to humans in guidance, so aside from idolizing things, it says, why you have to seek the proper means of guidance and cut off those who say they represent the earth spiritually or Shamans claiming to be connected to the earth's spirit, etc, but this was less common but there is a philosophy to why you shouldn't rely on this notion of people delegated to represent the elements and earth or skies or universe.

7. It has said if they have an authority let them bring a book if truthful from God, so you need a book from God to prove it or some sort of sign/miracles or way to know.

8. It has said if they have an authority those claiming to represent Angels from humans let them open all ways to the sky and ascend and travel by whichever means.

9. It has said God attributes purity to who he wishes to and shown the likes and ways of doing that with his chosen, and says not for us to choose or attribute purity to who we don't know have Taqwa let alone purity to the level of representing truth and being the means to enlightenment.

10. Shown corruption takes place in religious leaders and so to trust only chosen certain people to be luminaries or navigators by the name of God with no one else to mixed with religious authority.

That said, none of these conditions apply to Ahlulbayt. You equating it has shown you have not understood the Quran dialogue with respect to this. Because while it condemn their chaotic approach with all this to the extent they called their non-proven chosen ones as gods,  Ahlulbayt are bought servants who obey God and don't precede him in speech and do what he commands them with respect to being exalted but not gods, and has shown they have miracles to prove them and all means to the skies and earth to prove their authority, and a long with that, a recitation from him calls to them and proves their purity. And intercession not being a way of God interceding souls, is condemned, but God using chosen ones to intercede and accepting their prayers with respect to those on earth, is proven through out it's pages. Also, Angels ask forgiveness, but it's only those who God named as intercessors for us to be sought to be sought intercession. And he has entire Surahs on the theme of witnesses witnessing our deeds, asking forgiveness, and telling us that Mohammad (s) is to be sought for this, as well as those who grant security and safety, witness our deeds like him by contextual flow, and that his prayers for souls who find themselves in peril in God's decision, Mohammad (s) intercession and prayers become a means of tranquility for them.

And while he condemns seeking help from Jinn we don't know are Angels, he has told us he has adorned in the sky connected to this world, starts which are missiles against devils and protection and asylum he has safeguarded from devils.  And he has said to Mohammad (s) if he can connect and bring a miracle/proof by connecting someone to this sky reality and earth, and descend a path to it, to do so. But disbelievers if Mohammad (s) tried, would 99.99999% likely think they going crazy or some sort of sorcery is being done upon them. 

And so Quran says, don't call chosen ones gods, but exalt them to the extent don't exalt others below them nor exalt them ever beyond exalted because leaving that sacred territory and forbidden territory leads to worshiping them and they are no where near God's status (1). Don't seek them by ignorance, for God will prove them (2). Seek a revelation and book from him attributing purity with clarification of who the guides are (3). Don't mix authority of humans for religion because God establishes luminaries to be sought alone without mixing their central role others (4). Their intercession they do, but recognize God decides at the end more so, because he controls the heart of the one who can receive intercession and they cannot guide or help or bring a sign without his permission so rely on God yet said to seek their intercession and ask those who we know are interceders with God. (5) Said not to seek hidden being for magic power but rather seek refuge in the family of the reminder who are stars of guidance and who will bring us to wonders and beauty and be weapons against Satanic forces and way to repel and cure the dark magic (6) Has delegated the means to sky and connecting proofs to Mohammad (s) and his family, but warned, without God's guidance and allowing the heart to be ready, even that power and connection won't happen, but if it can happen, God has commanded Mohammad (s) if he can, to always connect  a human to this guidance and same is true of the Imam (a) of time.(7) Don't centralize for authority remembrance fame and control any other then God's chosen family and so find the chosen guides with proof from God and not based on conjecture or whims (8) Seek their help is fine for they can guide you in ways you cannot expect, connecting you to the sky above and realm beyond is one means of signs, but also teaching you inward states of good deeds and manifesting prayers and weapons and skills that you all place in the words "by the name of God" when you recall the truth of that for God establishes the proper means of ascending and honing magical skills of the soul and guiding in this respect to the extent they are arrows and weapons against the devils, and shield protecting you and asylum to hear God's plan and be veiled from the eyes of the sorcerers and devils (9)

In fact it's gone to the extent to say the highest veils have been the trial of all of God's words from beginning to end and it's through them the tree spoke as they are the tree of life, but you have to believe God speaks through them. And this why Adam (a) fell, because he doubted, because Iblis (la) disbelieved in their God and accused the exalted ones of having a foolish God doing a wrong thing by delegating Adam (a) and placing the chosen ones among humans as he saw his reality was much superior and close to God being of fire/light type nature over vulnerable moldy clay like nature.

The exalted ones the original exalted ones who were the tree of life not to be envied (eaten from) - this has been the trial from beginning till now. 

You disconnect yourself from them, and there is no guidance, no way to connect to God. So careful my friend.  Don't deny realities and don't try to compare those lower them (including all the others Ahlulbayts) with them, they are something else, and changed the way the world worked and was pulled to God when they took their position in the sky of this world. The soothsayers abilities were severely reduced, Devils lost, and sorcery power became easier to be defeated and the light brighter and the grounding word that firmly establishes believers, firmer.

Do not deny their reality so as to become blind to the light you are connected nor love them ever more then God, but seek to approach and please God through them, and connect their pleasure to God's. 

We pray to God but seek their help as an act of etiquette to exalt them and honor them.  You don't lose points with God if you exalt his chosen ones without trespassing to the level of love towards God nor do the exalted ones remind of anything but God and praying to God is central, but also, talking and saluting and seeking intercession of exalted ones, and wanting to spiritually connect to them is the way with making God the goal in all that.

With much well wishes and blessings and peace and God's mercy be upon you as well, and may God guide us all.

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The supplications we receive from the Qur'an and from the ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are directly and exclusively to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Therefore supplicating to Mary, Jesus, Mohammed (peace be upon all of them) or any one else is a practice that doesn't come from the Qur'an or from our narrations. 

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7 hours ago, Guest OnPoint said:

Prophet (s) and Imams (a) are directly guided by hearing revelation properly and themselves are foundation by which Angels turn to and where God's book of deeds resides. They are witnesses and the channel of God's sustenance and light. Also, they are themselves asylum, weapons, and missiles against devils so how can they seek help from others.

However, the Quran has for the sake arguments, and in that said if Mohammad (s) (God forbid) and his followers were ignorant, to seek the family of the reminder because there certainly would be one, and this is respect to knowledge but particularly both places contextualize more so with miracles although clarify it with guidance and knowledge as well.

Another verse says "those who give the book before you", and so this means the family of the reminder would be sought, as Quran shows neither Jews or Christians are reliable nor does this address the issue of miracles which is part of the context of what is to be sought from the family of the reminder if you don't know.

The witness of time if Mohammad (s) was ignorant, would be hidden, in the same way the Mahdi was hidden. And so that Quran else where said, if God for Mohammad (s) rhetorically to ask those who were sent before him did God ever appoint gods to be worshipped. 

Also the Quran talked about the family of the reminder in context of being an asylum against devils and starts of guidance and adornment for onlookers.  So there is no doubt, God forbid Mohammad (s) wasn't sure about this for sake of argument, he would be able tap into all Guides spiritually and see what they say, but particularly the family of the reminder which is the family of Mohammad but the Quran is saying, say for the sake of argument it wasn't, Mohammad (s) would've sought the family of the reminder which would be a different family and the Quran is commanding to seek the family of the reminder which it's pages have proven the necessity of and the perfect way God would guide humans, so say if Mohammad (s) forged the Quran, still, wouldn't God confirm the truth with his words? In this case, Mohammad (s) heart would be sealed and blind, and God would confirm still the truth with his words. And so the Quran is structure to confirm the Archetype religion which even includes have a consistent number which it has proven to be Twelve Successors with respect to the founder.

And so it says really, even if not open, the family of the reminder become hidden, Mohammad (s) would've sought them, and connected to them, and even the guide hidden and predecessors dead or some risen up (in case of Jesus risen up), he would've sought the answers for them say he was ignorant.

And so the Quran by putting Mohammad (s) to be included in the ask, shows, yes seek the family of Mohammad (s), but showed, even if Mohammad (s) didn't come, there was a family of the reminder to be sought and clergy of Christians and Jews didn't need to be relied upon.

The rhetorical nature of the question, God calculated keep in mind all the verses calculated to be about what Mohammad (s) would do for the sake of argument if he doubted or didn't know or if he forged it, still Quran shows by logic, what the guidance would be. In this way, in confirm the abstract religion has confirmed the particular form, which there is only one form of it because the rest have been corrupted or outdated their relevance.

In the same Mohammad (s) can talk to the family of the reminder even though all were dead except Jesus who was risen and Elyas who remained on earth but was hidden, it's saying, if he didn't know and you don't know, I'm telling you what to do. But it shows Mohammad (s) doesn't have doubt because the Quran shows the archetype family of the reminder and so proves the particular instance of it in this time.

And rope of God would be sought by Mohammad (s) if he didn't know. 

Now talking to dead people is not wrong, and asking them to guide him with respect to the issue of unity of God would be a kind of istaghatha spiritually and call upon them to use spiritual power because they are no longer out in the public.

And so God has proven beyond doubt with all these verses, that not only are the family of reminder a means to knowledge from God, but in context, shows, they can still manifest miracles and are still asylum from the sorcery and devils and weapons against the devils and arrows of God you can use to help you and you can see them beautified and adorned in vision as God has made those stars fair seeming to those who look.

And literature wise, there exists hadiths about istighatha, so you are wrong. There exists ones asking God to help by the Imams (a) spiritually, and there exists one that along with that, ask them (a) to help you, and others with regards to praying for you and seek forgiveness for you. All these type exist, and their is words from Imams (a) to show the family of the reminder is with you in your sleep and wake, in your hardship and ease, in your moments of peril and your moments of safety,  etc, but you don't know these because you don't research. And Quran confirms all this but you pay no attention.

And idols in Quran were condemned the following ways:

1. Attributing to God what we don't know (this applies to all leaders we don't know from God, can't attribute God what we don't and who we don't know he appointed)

2. The impossibility of them being near or equal to God's status, and hence the irrationality of not doing away with the word worship with respect to everything else, and not reserving a word of that indicates a level of love and exalting unique to God.

3. Intercession as in they do it without God's permission and approval or command. This is deemed impossible, as they can not help or intervene in a soul except if God permits. This type of intercession wasn't just about them praying for us but polytheists believed they acted on behalf of God. So we can see delegation is condemned with respect to sustaining us and helping us, but rather, the case is God's permission and command is directly related to this issue, and miracles are only done as well by his permission. So in this sense, we have to pray MORE SO to God for this intercession. But Quran didn't say you aren't to ask them intercession as well. It commanded both, seeking grace from God as well as from his Messenger. Seeking forgiveness from God and repenting to him, but also asking the Messenger to pray for you.  It didn't say just ask God to guide them by you and do miracles for you, it said along with that guidance you ask from God, ask the family of the reminder if you don't know for miracles and knowledge and guidance with respect to good deeds and the plan of God if you wish to participate in his plan.

4. It being just to stick to local leaders to confirm the ways of culture passed down generations to confirm by convenience our forefathers and remain blindly on the past generation (fathers) without condemning their ways.  It was total conjecture with no connection to the actual idols for so many but just an issue of culture and convenience.

5. With respect to many, it's saying, you think they were Angels but they are really Jinn, and not Jinn, but devils who through their friends who are sorcerers and they channel to them revelation, seek to misguide you, but you aren't aware of this hidden society and league of Jinn and Humans gathering to control humans through out the ages.  In particular, this is referring to those who sought help from Angels, they particularly were overwhelmed by devils and sorcery, and believed in the wrong forces, because they didn't rely on proof from God and didn't use the holy spirit to discern truth, but went to spiritually chaotically.  However, Ahlulbayt (a) are instances of the holy spirit and Quran confirms he helps believes by a spirit from him which hadiths confirm is the Imam (a) and say the light which is walking among humans, is the Imam (a) as well. 

6. With respect to planets and the earth or mountains guiding, it has a philosophy, of why God delegated to humans in guidance, so aside from idolizing things, it says, why you have to seek the proper means of guidance and cut off those who say they represent the earth spiritually or Shamans claiming to be connected to the earth's spirit, etc, but this was less common but there is a philosophy to why you shouldn't rely on this notion of people delegated to represent the elements and earth or skies or universe.

7. It has said if they have an authority let them bring a book if truthful from God, so you need a book from God to prove it or some sort of sign/miracles or way to know.

8. It has said if they have an authority those claiming to represent Angels from humans let them open all ways to the sky and ascend and travel by whichever means.

9. It has said God attributes purity to who he wishes to and shown the likes and ways of doing that with his chosen, and says not for us to choose or attribute purity to who we don't know have Taqwa let alone purity to the level of representing truth and being the means to enlightenment.

10. Shown corruption takes place in religious leaders and so to trust only chosen certain people to be luminaries or navigators by the name of God with no one else to mixed with religious authority.

That said, none of these conditions apply to Ahlulbayt. You equating it has shown you have not understood the Quran dialogue with respect to this. Because while it condemn their chaotic approach with all this to the extent they called their non-proven chosen ones as gods,  Ahlulbayt are bought servants who obey God and don't precede him in speech and do what he commands them with respect to being exalted but not gods, and has shown they have miracles to prove them and all means to the skies and earth to prove their authority, and a long with that, a recitation from him calls to them and proves their purity. And intercession not being a way of God interceding souls, is condemned, but God using chosen ones to intercede and accepting their prayers with respect to those on earth, is proven through out it's pages. Also, Angels ask forgiveness, but it's only those who God named as intercessors for us to be sought to be sought intercession. And he has entire Surahs on the theme of witnesses witnessing our deeds, asking forgiveness, and telling us that Mohammad (s) is to be sought for this, as well as those who grant security and safety, witness our deeds like him by contextual flow, and that his prayers for souls who find themselves in peril in God's decision, Mohammad (s) intercession and prayers become a means of tranquility for them.

And while he condemns seeking help from Jinn we don't know are Angels, he has told us he has adorned in the sky connected to this world, starts which are missiles against devils and protection and asylum he has safeguarded from devils.  And he has said to Mohammad (s) if he can connect and bring a miracle/proof by connecting someone to this sky reality and earth, and descend a path to it, to do so. But disbelievers if Mohammad (s) tried, would 99.99999% likely think they going crazy or some sort of sorcery is being done upon them. 

And so Quran says, don't call chosen ones gods, but exalt them to the extent don't exalt others below them nor exalt them ever beyond exalted because leaving that sacred territory and forbidden territory leads to worshiping them and they are no where near God's status (1). Don't seek them by ignorance, for God will prove them (2). Seek a revelation and book from him attributing purity with clarification of who the guides are (3). Don't mix authority of humans for religion because God establishes luminaries to be sought alone without mixing their central role others (4). Their intercession they do, but recognize God decides at the end more so, because he controls the heart of the one who can receive intercession and they cannot guide or help or bring a sign without his permission so rely on God yet said to seek their intercession and ask those who we know are interceders with God. (5) Said not to seek hidden being for magic power but rather seek refuge in the family of the reminder who are stars of guidance and who will bring us to wonders and beauty and be weapons against Satanic forces and way to repel and cure the dark magic (6) Has delegated the means to sky and connecting proofs to Mohammad (s) and his family, but warned, without God's guidance and allowing the heart to be ready, even that power and connection won't happen, but if it can happen, God has commanded Mohammad (s) if he can, to always connect  a human to this guidance and same is true of the Imam (a) of time.(7) Don't centralize for authority remembrance fame and control any other then God's chosen family and so find the chosen guides with proof from God and not based on conjecture or whims (8) Seek their help is fine for they can guide you in ways you cannot expect, connecting you to the sky above and realm beyond is one means of signs, but also teaching you inward states of good deeds and manifesting prayers and weapons and skills that you all place in the words "by the name of God" when you recall the truth of that for God establishes the proper means of ascending and honing magical skills of the soul and guiding in this respect to the extent they are arrows and weapons against the devils, and shield protecting you and asylum to hear God's plan and be veiled from the eyes of the sorcerers and devils (9)

In fact it's gone to the extent to say the highest veils have been the trial of all of God's words from beginning to end and it's through them the tree spoke as they are the tree of life, but you have to believe God speaks through them. And this why Adam (a) fell, because he doubted, because Iblis (la) disbelieved in their God and accused the exalted ones of having a foolish God doing a wrong thing by delegating Adam (a) and placing the chosen ones among humans as he saw his reality was much superior and close to God being of fire/light type nature over vulnerable moldy clay like nature.

The exalted ones the original exalted ones who were the tree of life not to be envied (eaten from) - this has been the trial from beginning till now. 

You disconnect yourself from them, and there is no guidance, no way to connect to God. So careful my friend.  Don't deny realities and don't try to compare those lower them (including all the others Ahlulbayts) with them, they are something else, and changed the way the world worked and was pulled to God when they took their position in the sky of this world. The soothsayers abilities were severely reduced, Devils lost, and sorcery power became easier to be defeated and the light brighter and the grounding word that firmly establishes believers, firmer.

Do not deny their reality so as to become blind to the light you are connected nor love them ever more then God, but seek to approach and please God through them, and connect their pleasure to God's. 

We pray to God but seek their help as an act of etiquette to exalt them and honor them.  You don't lose points with God if you exalt his chosen ones without trespassing to the level of love towards God nor do the exalted ones remind of anything but God and praying to God is central, but also, talking and saluting and seeking intercession of exalted ones, and wanting to spiritually connect to them is the way with making God the goal in all that.

With much well wishes and blessings and peace and God's mercy be upon you as well, and may God guide us all.

thank you for your well wishes in the end. Amen!

Your post is very long and not very direct, so I am sure that it is not just me who won't understand what points you are making. Let me give you advice on how to get through to people like me. Keep it simple, keep it direct. How?

 

Post actual verses and hadiths that talk directly about "dua" and minimize your own opinions on the matter, and let the verses talk for themselves. 

Here is an example:

My point: We should not call upon servants of Allah:

Proof: 

إن الذين تدعون من دون الله عباد أمثالكم فادعوهم فليستجيبوا لكم إن كنتم صادقين

Indeed, those you call upon (make duas to ) besides Allah are servants like you. So call upon them and let them respond to you, if you should be truthful. 7:194 

 

Conclusion:

I don't need to say anything after posting the above, because the topic of "dua" is addressed directly, and my point has a heavy proof to support it. 

 

I made my own grading system that will save you a lot of work! Just stick to the Quran verses and hadiths available, and you won't need to waste time on giving your own opinions anymore. Just see what Allah says on the topic of "dua" and you will find the truth coupled with hadiths about it in sha Allah.

All the best and I look forward to your next more focused attempt.

`Thank you

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18 hours ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

deceased human to intercede for you

Salaam,

 “And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah, "They are dead." Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.” 2:154

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3 minutes ago, Ejaz said:

Salaam,

 “And do not say about those who are killed in the way of Allah, "They are dead." Rather, they are alive, but you perceive [it] not.” 2:154

Yes, but how do you know they can hear your call and that they will intercede for you?

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Guest OnPoint

Du'a has two meanings, the meaning of not calling other then God is absurd, so it means prayer which includes and is coupled or even the true form of Worship.  Without Worship, it's only a call, but that is not what Quran means by the word Du'a there but prayer which includes Worship.

You have no presented one verse that we can't talk to dead or that requesting their intercession would be Shirk.

1. 

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا قَبْلَكَ إِلَّا رِجَالًا نُوحِي إِلَيْهِمْ ۖ فَاسْأَلُوا أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ لَا تَعْلَمُونَ {7}

[21:7] And We did not send before you any but males to whom We sent revelation, so ask the family of the reminder if you do not

Combine Mohammad (s) would have sought the family of reminder if he was ignorant with, it's obvious that it's saying for the same of argument like wise:

[43:45] And ask those of Our messengers whom We sent before you: Did We ever appoint gods to be worshipped besides the Compassionate?

Combining the verse with the above, we see the particular Messengers Mohammad (s) would've asked are those who recited the book before him:

[10:94] So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

Combining the three verses, we see Mohammad (s) would've done if he was in doubt or lacked knowledge or was lost or ignorant.  Of course, God means this for the sake of argument way, but as far as we are concerned, they point us to seek the family of the reminder and since the family of the reminder, the Messengers to be sought, those who recited the book before Mohammad (s) would've been an Ahlulbayt that were no longer in the open but mostly dead and the alive among them hidden, we are allowed to seek spiritually the Ahlulbayt (a) despite they being hidden.

As for the connecting to sky theme:

[Shakir 15:14] And even if We open to them a gateway of heaven, so that they ascend into it all the while,

لَقَالُوا إِنَّمَا سُكِّرَتْ أَبْصَارُنَا بَلْ نَحْنُ قَوْمٌ مَسْحُورُونَ {15}

[Shakir 15:15] They would certainly say: Only our eyes have been covered over, rather we are an enchanted people.

وَلَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا فِي السَّمَاءِ بُرُوجًا وَزَيَّنَّاهَا لِلنَّاظِرِينَ {16}

[Shakir 15:16] And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders.

وَحَفِظْنَاهَا مِنْ كُلِّ شَيْطَانٍ رَجِيمٍ {17}

[Shakir 15:17] And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan,

إِلَّا مَنِ اسْتَرَقَ السَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُبِينٌ {18}

[Shakir 15:18] But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.

And elsewhere said:

وَإِنْ كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَنْ تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الْأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاءِ فَتَأْتِيَهُمْ بِآيَةٍ ۚ وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَىٰ ۚ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ {35}

[Shakir 6:35] And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek an opening (to go down) into the earth or a ladder (to ascend up) to heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant.

And if we combine this with the verses above, we see that prayer to God is vital, true, because we have to be guided to not reject this reality and think it's sorcery or we going crazy if we witness it, but believe in the connection to God reality of this type of proof, but combined with that, is that we would have to seek the family of reminder and ask them, and this is one the signs and proofs we can ask them for, and with God's permission, they can connect. 

The reason why Mohammad (s) couldn't connect disbelievers is because they were arrogant towards him and envied him and his family, in this regard I remind you of verse 42:23, that if we love Mohammad (a) and his family (a), we will be guided by them towards God.

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا {64}

[Shakir 4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

And there is many verses about that God allowed intercession by permission.

We saw it does no difference if they are dead or alive as far communicating to them and getting their guidance and help, so the same is true of seeking their prayers to God with respect to asking them forgiveness for us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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44 minutes ago, AkhiraisReal said:

Yes, but their father were alive, correct?

So how do we make sure that those that are martyred in the way of Allah can hear us when we tell them to intercede for us?

If someone would like to translate this gem

بأمر من رسول الله جُمعت الأموال والغنائم في مكان واحد وبعد دفن الشهداء من المسلمين، رُميت أجساد المشركين في القليب (البئر)، وخاطبهم الرسول (ص) قائلا: "هل وجدتم ما وعدكم ربكم حقا؟ فإني وجدت ما وعدني ربي حقا". وعندما قيل له كيف تخاطب الأموات قال: "لقد سمعوا ما قلت غير أنهم لا يستطيعون أن يردوا شيئا".

الطبري، تاريخ الطبري، ج 2، ص 456.

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15 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

If someone would like to translate this gem

بأمر من رسول الله جُمعت الأموال والغنائم في مكان واحد وبعد دفن الشهداء من المسلمين، رُميت أجساد المشركين في القليب (البئر)، وخاطبهم الرسول (ص) قائلا: "هل وجدتم ما وعدكم ربكم حقا؟ فإني وجدت ما وعدني ربي حقا". وعندما قيل له كيف تخاطب الأموات قال: "لقد سمعوا ما قلت غير أنهم لا يستطيعون أن يردوا شيئا".

الطبري، تاريخ الطبري، ج 2، ص 456.

This Hadith is the famous speech prophet Mohamed gave at the battle of Badr to his fallen enemies, who were stacked up in a well. 

Nobody denies that talking to dead or martyred people is in the Islamic tradition, we do it ever time we pray in the end, when we say "Salam alaika ayahu nabi ..", it does not show the prophet actually asking them for help. Likewise there are no Hadiths of them doing so. I have never heard of a Hadith where members of the ahlulbayt would go to the head of their family's grave ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and ask him for help. Neither did I ever see any reliable Hadith where any of Ahl bayt allowed it. 

And all this without even taking the Noble Quran into consideration, which talks directly and repeatedly about "dua" and its limitations to having them done to Allah alone. 

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12 minutes ago, Allah Seeker said:

This Hadith is the famous speech prophet Mohamed gave at the battle of Badr to his fallen enemies, who were stacked up in a well. 

Nobody denies that talking to dead or martyred people is in the Islamic tradition, we do it ever time we pray in the end, when we say "Salam alaika ayahu nabi ..", it does not show the prophet actually asking them for help. Likewise there are no Hadiths of them doing so. I have never heard of a Hadith where members of the ahlulbayt would go to the head of their family's grave ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and ask him for help. Neither did I ever see any reliable Hadith where any of Ahl bayt allowed it. 

And all this without even taking the Noble Quran into consideration, which talks directly and repeatedly about "dua" and its limitations to having them done to Allah alone. 

What are you even on about? The brother asked if the dead can hear us, I gave him proof that they can.

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Just now, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

What are you even on about? The brother asked if the dead can hear us, I gave him proof that they can.

OK, then how do you know that maybe these dead people hear him because they are freshly killed, or right in front of the prophet? Or maybe the prophet has the power to make them hear, while others might not have that power. 

Even when we address the prophet in our prayers, there is no guarantee that the prophet hears it ever time. Especially if we are absent minded while saying those words. But Allah hears it every time. That is guaranteed! That is safe! That is mu'amin.  

So we can say that sometimes dead can hear us, but there is no proof that they hear us all the time. 

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10 minutes ago, Allah Seeker said:

OK, then how do you know that maybe these dead people hear him because they are freshly killed, or right in front of the prophet? Or maybe the prophet has the power to make them hear, while others might not have that power. 

Even when we address the prophet in our prayers, there is no guarantee that the prophet hears it ever time. Especially if we are absent minded while saying those words. But Allah hears it every time. That is guaranteed! That is safe! That is mu'amin.  

So we can say that sometimes dead can hear us, but there is no proof that they hear us all the time. 

You’re just arguing at this point. 

Lets take it a step by step.

Can the dead hear us? Yes. We have just proven that. Why is this important to the topic? Because the people who we use for intercession have passed away. Who do we use for intercession? Those who are of high regard. Are those highly regarded people the same as normal people? No, if they were, they wouldn’t be highly regarded. What does this mean? They have more privileges then us. What does this mean? Considering they are in the Jannah of Barzakh, and it is a type of Jannah where everything is available, they can have whatever they want. If they want to hear the intercession, they can. If they want to hear people, they can. If they want to help those people, they can.

I could give you personal anecdotal evidence of intercession working, but anecdotal evidence is not a Hujjah on you so it isn’t worth it.

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37 minutes ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

You’re just arguing at this point. 

Lets take it a step by step.

Can the dead hear us? Yes. We have just proven that. Why is this important to the topic? Because the people who we use for intercession have passed away. Who do we use for intercession? Those who are of high regard. Are those highly regarded people the same as normal people? No, if they were, they wouldn’t be highly regarded. What does this mean? They have more privileges then us. What does this mean? Considering they are in the Jannah of Barzakh, and it is a type of Jannah where everything is available, they can have whatever they want. If they want to hear the intercession, they can. If they want to hear people, they can. If they want to help those people, they can.

I could give you personal anecdotal evidence of intercession working, but anecdotal evidence is not a Hujjah on you so it isn’t worth it.

We can say that in the case mentioned above in Badr they could hear. Can you claim that every dead person hears anybody who addresses them all the time? No! Only Allah can hear everything. If I say "Yo Elvis! How's it going?!" is Elvis guaranteed to hear it? No! There is no proof from Islam that anybody other than Allah can hear every communication to him. Just because the prophet said that his enemies heard him, it does not mean that the prophet said every dead person can hear every living person addressing them. 

Furthermore, nobody is arguing that if Allah wants interecession to happen, then it wouldn't. We are saying that clearly it does not comprise the tradition and way of the prophet to allow people asking dead or martyred people for any kind of help, including intercession. The same goes for Quran. There is no direct, clear evidence to support this (other than metaphorical, 'tashabah' according to verse 7 of surat Aal Imran). But all direct verses in the Quran talking about dua emphasis that it is not allowed.

 What concerns your successes in praying to people and finding results, I personally think it is very possible. But this is no proof! Why? Because it probably shaytan making it happen so that you continue calling upon others than Allah, and disobeying Him. Magic also works. 

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17 minutes ago, Allah Seeker said:

We can say that in the case mentioned above in Badr they could hear. Can you claim that every dead person hears anybody who addresses them all the time? No!

The burden of proof is on you. You have to find a hadith that claims the dead don’t hear you all the time because this hadith states that the dead can hear you. It is not situational.

 

23 minutes ago, Allah Seeker said:

Furthermore, nobody is arguing that if Allah wants interecession to happen, then it wouldn't. We are saying that clearly it does not comprise the tradition and way of the prophet to allow people asking dead or martyred people for any kind of help, including intercession. The same goes for Quran. There is no direct, clear evidence to support this (other than metaphorical, 'tashabah' according to verse 7 of surat Aal Imran). But all direct verses in the Quran talking about dua emphasis that it is not allowed.

 


( ولا تحسبن الذين قتلوا في سبيل الله أمواتا بل أحياء عند ربهم يرزقون 

Could the ability to intercede be Rizq? Yes. 

 

19 minutes ago, Allah Seeker said:

What concerns your successes in praying to people and finding results, I personally think it is very possible. But this is no proof! Why? Because it probably shaytan making it happen so that you continue calling upon others than Allah, and disobeying Him. Magic also works. 

I didn’t know shaytan does very moral and ethical things. Terrible argument. You don’t seem to know how magic works. 

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1 minute ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

The burden of proof is on you. You have to find a hadith that claims the dead don’t hear you all the time because this hadith states that the dead can hear you. It is not situational.

 


( ولا تحسبن الذين قتلوا في سبيل الله أمواتا بل أحياء عند ربهم يرزقون 

Could the ability to intercede be Rizq? Yes. 

 

I didn’t know shaytan does very moral and ethical things. Terrible argument. You don’t seem to know how magic works. 

- The burden of proof is on you, because you are the one making the statement that "all dead people can hear all living people addressing them". And the case you gave is just one instance of a prophet talking to corpses in front of him. It does not prove your point beyond that one example. 

- And you are are saying that martyrs being sustained, means that this sustenance is intercession of people on earth? That is kind of twisted and too far fetched to be even a weak argument.

- There are two options for your successes in prayers to others than God. One, is that maybe Allah lets it slide because of your ignorance, and the second is that as I said it is answered by forces other than Allah, even if it appears to you to be moral. After all, here you are advocating that more people should join your prayers to humans. That's probably a good trade-off.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Allah Seeker said:

- The burden of proof is on you, because you are the one making the statement that "all dead people can hear all living people addressing them". And the case you gave is just one instance of a prophet talking to corpses in front of him. It does not prove your point beyond that one example. 

- And you are are saying that martyrs being sustained, means that this sustenance is intercession of people on earth? That is kind of twisted and too far fetched to be even a weak argument.

- There are two options for your successes in prayers to others than God. One, is that maybe Allah lets it slide because of your ignorance, and the second is that as I said it is answered by forces other than Allah, even if it appears to you to be moral. After all, here you are advocating that more people should join your prayers to humans. That's probably a good trade-off.

 

 

1. I have proved the dead can hear. You have not proved anything. How is the burden on me?

2. Not really. But I have not seen any good argument from you ever so I’d doubt you’d know what it sounds like. You’ve posted on countless topics and have been shut down instantly because of your lack of knowledge.

3. Stop using linguistic gymnastics to attempt to win an argument and make others appear as a Mushrik. That is a very dirty tactic. No one is saying you pray to people, you are lying at this point. We said you use intercession. If you do not know the difference do not argue. No one says “Oh such and such grant me this and this”. That is shirk. 

Edited by Ibn Al-Shahid

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11 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

Yes, but their father were alive, correct?

So how do we make sure that those that are martyred in the way of Allah can hear us when we tell them to intercede for us?

In addition to that, they are not making du'a to him. They are asking him to make du'a to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) .

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