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In the Name of God بسم الله
danielaguiar

sharia aql and naql. where is the harmony

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Salam aleykum, brothers and sisters

How understand that in matters of usul din aql is essencial and even shiism has as characteristic the philosophical thought. but with sharia we don't have to use aql or we should say that we don't have to use qyias. maybe i can't understand the diference, but somehow they are related.

i know there is the opinion that what we don't understand now will be revealed. but still there's a kind of incongruity to me.

Could you help with commentaries ?

Thank you

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Salam in "shiism" we must use Aql for applying Sharia & Qyias is different from using Aql in Sharia because Qyias is comparing two different matters for making general rule that is not true in  "shiism" but using Aql in Sharia means considering situation for applying  just one matter in differentsituation.

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18 hours ago, danielaguiar said:

ok, so the point is why follow things we don't know the reason.

it's very general but sometimes by expanding our knowledge  & experience we understand reasons or something makes sense after it.

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On 6/1/2020 at 8:45 AM, danielaguiar said:

And even sometimes doesn't make sense

When it comes to fulfilling your own personal Shariah obligations, it suffices to simply imitate those who are more learned than you in the field (you can simply trust their judgement).  There is nothing that says you are not allowed to understand the basis of religious rulings.  

But when it comes to your “doctrinal beliefs”, it does not suffice for you to simply imitate others who are more learned than you in this field, you actually have to understand it for yourself and be convinced about it.

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On 6/4/2020 at 10:19 AM, eThErEaL said:

When it comes to fulfilling your own personal Shariah obligations, it suffices to simply imitate those who are more learned than you in the field (you can simply trust their judgement).  There is nothing that says you are not allowed to understand the basis of religious rulings.  

But when it comes to your “doctrinal beliefs”, it does not suffice for you to simply imitate others who are more learned than you in this field, you actually have to understand it for yourself and be convinced about it.

ok, but if something doesn't make sense ? should we simply follow or trust ? the problem is that some rules are against reason

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On 6/1/2020 at 8:45 AM, danielaguiar said:

And even sometimes doesn't make sense

There are many things that mankind has not discoverd in fact medical science has not reach its peak of understanding. So shall we forget the whole science? 

Now what if someone came who knew all the secrets of science that all the other scientist have not yet discovered will intellect dictate that we ought to follow that knower? 

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On 6/5/2020 at 12:05 PM, danielaguiar said:

ok, but if something doesn't make sense ? should we simply follow or trust ? the problem is that some rules are against 

 

One should have to ask theirself here is if one is sure that when their thoughts are like this is it that they are against reason and maybe that is why we cannot understand the particular issue ? Mankind and the devlopment of sciences is a witness to the fact that mankind dose not have complete knowledge and complete intellect. 

Edited by Rohani

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On 6/1/2020 at 9:10 PM, danielaguiar said:

ok, so the point is why follow things we don't know the reason.

 

On 6/1/2020 at 9:45 PM, danielaguiar said:

And even sometimes doesn't make sense

It seems that you are strong in understanding the logics on sharia rulings.  For some, they just accept and put their trust to experts.

In term of understanding the reasons, it would best that there is line of communication between the person who is expert in sharia and their followers.  

Many sharia specific cases are scenario or individual based.  Detail analysis by experts to digest the scenario so the deduced rulings will make sense is important.

For example, if an astronaut is on the space station for 60 days, how would he / she to conduct prayer.  Or when we on a long haul flight toward east, at higher altitude, the fajr timing and qiblah direction will change.

Differences in deduction from experts are tolerable as long as it may help us to reduce anxiety and boost confident in our religious acts.  But we should ready to accept changes when better deduction are presented.

End of the day, our pure intention to follow as much as possible the sharia that counts.

Has a line of communication with experts to know the ⁹reasonings".  If it still no making sense, ask other experts.

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14 hours ago, layman said:

 

It seems that you are strong in understanding the logics on sharia rulings.  For some, they just accept and put their trust to experts.

In term of understanding the reasons, it would best that there is line of communication between the person who is expert in sharia and their followers.  

Many sharia specific cases are scenario or individual based.  Detail analysis by experts to digest the scenario so the deduced rulings will make sense is important.

For example, if an astronaut is on the space station for 60 days, how would he / she to conduct prayer.  Or when we on a long haul flight toward east, at higher altitude, the fajr timing and qiblah direction will change.

Differences in deduction from experts are tolerable as long as it may help us to reduce anxiety and boost confident in our religious acts.  But we should ready to accept changes when better deduction are presented.

End of the day, our pure intention to follow as much as possible the sharia that counts.

Has a line of communication with experts to know the ⁹reasonings".  If it still no making sense, ask other experts.

I notice irony in your first sentence and i think it's disrespectful.

to become clearer i'll give two exemples :

1-circuncision - in ancient times ok; poor hygiene; but today ? Allah created foreskin, so why remove something that science proove that is the most sensitive part of male organ

2 - a read 2 big marjaas that said that when we are lost and don't know the qibla we should pray in the 4 direction

i guess that maybe should be assumed that with the persecution and dificulty to preserve Ahlul-bayt knowlwdge we have an imperfect sharia and aql should help us. the porpose of sharia is pave our way, not something that if we do not do will burn. there is a lot of legalism in islam in general too as judaism in the times of Prophet Jesus ((عليه السلام).)

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On 6/5/2020 at 1:05 PM, danielaguiar said:

ok, but if something doesn't make sense ? should we simply follow or trust ? the problem is that some rules are against reason

Which rules are  “against reason”?  And who makes this judgement?

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5 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Which rules are  “against reason”?  And who makes this judgement?

i gave 2 exemples. at least it should be assumed, as i said, that we have not the perfect information about some issues and that with the increase of knowledge some rules should be changed.

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On 6/7/2020 at 2:07 PM, danielaguiar said:

I notice irony in your first sentence and i think it's disrespectful.

to become clearer i'll give two exemples :

1-circuncision - in ancient times ok; poor hygiene; but today ? Allah created foreskin, so why remove something that science proove that is the most sensitive part of male organ

2 - a read 2 big marjaas that said that when we are lost and don't know the qibla we should pray in the 4 direction

i guess that maybe should be assumed that with the persecution and dificulty to preserve Ahlul-bayt knowlwdge we have an imperfect sharia and aql should help us. the porpose of sharia is pave our way, not something that if we do not do will burn. there is a lot of legalism in islam in general too as judaism in the times of Prophet Jesus ((عليه السلام).)

1. When something is Wajib or recommended, we don't look for science to validate it. There are enough aHadith about this present how it is an impurity. The hair growth under arms and below navel is from Allah too but we are again asked to trim it. There is evidence present about benefits of circumcision and the same holds true for removing the said hair. It is better for hygiene.

2. You should read the same line before they say it should be performed in each direction making it four times i.e. it is a recommended precaution if there is time. You are talking about a scenario which is very very rarely going to happen if ever. If I am lost, I have no certainty of Qibla and I have time, I would rather sit and perform prayers and be close to Allah and ask for support and guidance in a dark time like that instead of thinking about the Maraja who said if you are lost, you should pray 4 times, one each in every direction.

Ruling 771. If someone does not have any means to find the direction of qibla, or despite his efforts he cannot arrive at a supposition as to its direction, it is sufficient for him to perform prayers facing one direction. Furthermore, the recommended precaution is that if there is enough time, he should perform prayers four times, each time facing one of the four compass directions [i.e. what he supposes to be north, east, south, and west].

Are there questions about a few things on my mind, yes, sure but the questions won't make me doubt the religion I follow or give me a reason not to observe it. If I am lucky enough to live in the time of Imam Mahdi (ajtf), I will surely ask him. I won't find some sticking point and keep poking it about religion because I follow the magnificent personalities that were the Prophet Muhammad (saww) and the Imams (عليه السلام) like Imam Ali (عليه السلام). Whichever God they followed, I follow. Whichever acts they did, I try to follow to the best of my abilities in hopes of becoming a better human and yes, for salvation, in this world and the hereafter.

So I don't personally see the problem with following rules that are known in Islam esp. when there is enough evidence that almost everything that has been deemed Haram in Islam, were proven, are proven and will be proven to be bad and with adverse effects on the human body.

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On 6/7/2020 at 10:07 AM, danielaguiar said:

1-circuncision - in ancient times ok; poor hygiene; but today ? Allah created foreskin, so why remove something that science proove that is the most sensitive part of male organ

Circumcision was not normally done during infancy.  It was done when the male was able to show his manhood (not just physically, but even mentally).  The decision a man goes through to voluntarily get circumcised was what initiated him into manhood.  Circumcision would usually be accompanied by other rites.  Young men would be sent away from their home town for a month or so.  during this time they were  taught survival skills every adult male ought to be knowing and some of them who were more gifted were selected to inherit certain metaphysical secrets about "creation, symbols of nature, etc".  They were not merely taught survival skills, they actually had to demonstrate it.  We have lost this beautiful tradition due to the modern way of living.  This is why "circumcision" doesn't mean much to us anymore...   But in in traditional societies it was a means of initiation.           

Quote

2 - a read 2 big marjaas that said that when we are lost and don't know the qibla we should pray in the 4 direction

i guess that maybe should be assumed that with the persecution and dificulty to preserve Ahlul-bayt knowlwdge we have an imperfect sharia and aql should help us. the porpose of sharia is pave our way, not something that if we do not do will burn. there is a lot of legalism in islam in general too as judaism in the times of Prophet Jesus ((عليه السلام).)

I am not sure what your point is here.  Yes, we have a lot of legalism just like in Judaism and its Mosaic Law.  But we also have a lot of Inward Spirituality just like we find in Christianity and the Isawi Spirituality.  Islam is the Perfect Religion because it contains both of these aspects in a very apparent and explicit way.   Yes, a particular adherent of Islam may emphasize the Law and ignore the Inward Meaning of it, another adherent of Islam may not emphasize the Law as much as he emphasizes its inward spiritual dimension, but Islam as a whole caters to the needs of both and works with everyone at their own level. 

 

  

Edited by eThErEaL

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Imagine how traumatic and dangerous an adult circuncion in ancient times were. Jews at least do it in newborn ones.

If you want i can type  more laws against reason. years ago i used to read books of laws but it usually frustrated me. i recall more two at least. if you want i can research and find more, but i think it's not the point.

 

 

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On 6/8/2020 at 11:32 PM, danielaguiar said:

Imagine how traumatic and dangerous an adult circuncion in ancient times were. Jews at least do it in newborn ones.

If you want i can type  more laws against reason. years ago i used to read books of laws but it usually frustrated me. i recall more two at least. if you want i can research and find more, but i think it's not the point.

If it was so “traumatic”, then why did every parent want it for their own son? Yes, it is traumatic for those of us who have been spoiled by the modern era, where men are slowly losing their masculinity (where we are taught, pain is horrible and should be eradicated).   But it need not be “seen” like that (it certainly wasn’t seen like that before).  It can be seen a rite of initiation, a passage towards adulthood.  The rite of passage involves being placed in a difficult position, making a difficult choice. (Women have their own rite of initiation— perhaps it is childbirth).
 

You might ask, why is it necessary to “be initiated into manhood”, when we are doing well these days without it.  The answer is that, if it is not a formal rite of circumcision that will initiate you to manhood then something or another in life will!  Sooner or later you will be faced with a choice to make.  How one faces their own death is the final rite of passage, trails and affliction like diseases, loss of loved ones, natural disasters, wars etc are also such passages. But the “formal rite” is a more controlled, traditional and compassionate way of going about this process.

Edited by eThErEaL

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32 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

If it was so “traumatic”, then why did every parent want it for their own son? Yes, it is traumatic for those of us who have been spoiled by the modern era, where men are slowly losing their masculinity (where we are taught, pain is horrible and should be eradicated).   But it need not be “seen” like that (it certainly wasn’t seen like that before).  It can be seen a rite of initiation, a passage towards adulthood.  The rite of passage involves being placed in a difficult position, making a difficult choice. (Women have their own rite of initiation— perhaps it is childbirth).

You might ask, why is it necessary to “be initiated into manhood”, when we are doing well these days without it.  The answer is that, if it is not a formal rite of circumcision that will initiate you to manhood then something or another in life will!  Sooner or later you will be faced with a choice to make.  How one faces their own death is the final rite of passage, trails and affliction like diseases, loss of loved ones, natural disasters, wars etc are also such passages. But the “formal rite” is a more controlled, traditional and compassionate way of going about this process.

 

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