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In the Name of God بسم الله
Dave follower of The Way

Do Muslims have the right to discredit the Bible?

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On 6/21/2020 at 6:10 AM, The Green Knight said:

But reading about prophets having orgies with their daughters for instance or murdering someone for their pretty wife etc it all doesn't really convince an unbiased newbie that God would endorse such an action nor His representatives indulge so horribly, therefore sadly the book had to be scrutinized and there were many problems found albeit there are many good things to be found as well.

As fellow humans we should never insult each other yet we also should not omit elephants in the room and lie to comfort others. The plain truth has to be said some time.

Hey Green Knight,

I just wanted to jump in here to talk about the so-called elephants in the room. I'll be the first to admit that great and outrageous sin is spread throughout the entire Bible. Since the Bible is true, it's about real stories of real people. Yes even some of the heroes of the Bible like Noah and David did some horrible things. But not once does God endorse their actions! The Bible makes it clear that every single person who ever lived can not stand on his own righteousness, that there is a need for God to step in to save us by His great mercy! Every sinful action committed by one of God's chosen points to the need for a Savior that's outside of ourselves. I believe this Savior is Jesus. :)

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1 hour ago, Nathan said:

Hey Green Knight,

I just wanted to jump in here to talk about the so-called elephants in the room. I'll be the first to admit that great and outrageous sin is spread throughout the entire Bible. Since the Bible is true, it's about real stories of real people. Yes even some of the heroes of the Bible like Noah and David did some horrible things. But not once does God endorse their actions! The Bible makes it clear that every single person who ever lived can not stand on his own righteousness, that there is a need for God to step in to save us by His great mercy! Every sinful action committed by one of God's chosen points to the need for a Savior that's outside of ourselves. I believe this Savior is Jesus. :)

Hello my friend,

God does not highlight a sin but that it is followed by proper condemnation, and that makes sense. To me it seems like certain passages are inserted by us men along certain stories. It seems very deconstructive way of relating things. Also because they simply do not make sense and stand out. For instance, the Bible's "Lot" is escaping the city of the sinners with his daughters, leaving a colossal and unforgettable sort of destruction behind him, he must be much grieved. Same goes for his daughters. They are displaced. Lot lost his wife, the daughters lost their mother and their fiances. And then we read;

Quote

30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters. 31 And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose.

34 The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.” 35 So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose. 36 Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father. 37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab.[b] He is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 The younger also bore a son and called his name Ben-ammi.[c] He is the father of the Ammonites to this day. (Genesis)

Pardon me but it is nonsensical for one thing. There were no women left on Earth for Lot? He was not a secular, temporal monarch to be so much worried about having a male offspring. Both his daughters were indecent? And he too? An incestual man can be a prophet and man of God? What is this? Preposterous. This quoted part is very clearly a distortion, inserted into the Bible by some monarch. Its obvious. It totally and royally destroys the standards of righteousness and morality. Its a grievous blasphemy. And Bible is riddled with such distortions. Some argue that its not even the real Bible that came from God.

Secondly, and pardon me again but why would you defend Genesis or OT anyway? Its Jewish and Jews wanted Jesus killed didn't they? Whats going on? Now you do have to not be offended I beg you, otherwise the purpose of my post will be conveniently lost. All of this seems extremely unbelievable and nonsensical to an outsider to be perfectly honest. Even highly offensive. Would I let my children read it? Never. There is not a speck of such profanity and evil and immorality in our Quran. There, I "discredited the Bible" some more. And I believe all peoples have the right to do so.

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@Nathan his as muslims we don't  agree on wrongdoing  of any prophet also Quran refutes it so we see it as  distortions in Bible & Torah for justifying  wrongdoing  of any ruler or priest or rabbi in Christian & Jewish history also we oppose what @tdawg626 said about Jesus that he wasn't a scapegoat  or final sacrifice for our sins anyway prophet Isa (عليه السلام) [Jesus] will be savior of all of us beside 12th Imam that they are not Gods but in other hand they are representative of God/Allah on earth that we call them caliphs of Allah that will fill eath with justice after it filled with injustice but whole of us must ask hastening  of their coming by praying  to real God/Allah not them as gods or something  like that.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

"have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,"

According to Paul the imposter not the Not the Gospels.

Mathew 5:17-20

Mathew 7:24-28 

John 17:3

john 15:10 

jesus’ disciples confirming 

james 2:8-11 

james 2:14 and up. 

9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Even if one could argue that was not the case, we quickly see evidence of sacrifices by others who descended from Adam and Eve, like their son Abel. 

Able and cane giving a scarifice to God was a test to see whom is truly faithful to God it has nothing to do with sins very desperate attempt.

 

9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

God is so passionate about his rules and laws and punishment for breaking them in the Bible does not just disappear

Is that why he killed himself to forgive them.... instead of chastising them like he the God of the OT, Deuteronomy 8:5.

 

9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

The O.T. sacrifices were a symbol and a covering for sins, not a removal. 

No it was a removal of the minor sins (I.e an confirmation of sincerity seeking forgiveness) 

 

9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

There are no non-sinners so biblically we'd all be guilty and even one sin (which we all do more) or anything short of his holiness would automatically place us in enmity with God.

Committing a sin is when you break God’s Laws. Biblically that is not the case like I have shown. 

 

9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

One thing I do know is that, although God had not fulfilled the law in the Old Covenant, the law was never supposed to be something that kept people away from him. 

If they act contrary to the law they are not submitting to God thus they distince themselves away slowly from God. 

 

9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

If we could picture a sinless person, that person could die for him/herself without consequences in the afterlife, but they could never pay for the sins of another because the other would not be perfect and have sin.  None of us can pay for another's sins.  And for someone to change where a person ends up in the afterlife, well that has to be the judge of the universe.  He's got the final word. 

Which is Ezekiel 18:18-21.

 

9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Whether or not you believe this, I have never witnessed a person that has fulfilled perfectly God's law. 

There have been you just haven’t met one yet and plus the ones that do; do not boast about it. read Mathew 6 and 7 how to surpass the Pharisees. 

 

9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Jesus completely relies on God's power a

Distinguishing Jesus from God yet he claims jesus is God in the same essay. A lot of contradictions. 

 

9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

The Bible shows how we can even sin in our mind or heart.

It doesn’t shows it anywhere rather it’s a matter of you manifesting the sin or not. 

 

9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Ezekiel 18 is talking about righteous people and wicked people and how a son will not be responsible for his father's sin.  This is correct.  I am not responsible for the tendencies inherited or whatever was not inherited.  I am responsible for what I do and only what I do.  The fact is, I will do something.  Now, there are examples in Old Testament of other "righteous" people who ended up sinning.  This "righteous" person may do a lot of good things, but the Bible would never support a sinless person.  

The bible does support a sinless person you clearly have been over looking verses. 

Ezekiel is talking about not inherenting sin. Stop with the desperate attempts.

Ezekiel 18:1-32

1And the word of the Lord came to me, saying:

2"What do you mean that you use this parable over the land of Israel, saying, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge'?

3As truly as I live, says the Lord God, you shall no longer use this parable in Israel.

4Behold, all souls are Mine. Like the soul of the father, like the soul of the son they are Mine; the soul that sins, it shall die.

5So a man who is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,

6And does not eat [offerings of meals] on the mountains, and does not lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel; neither defiles his fellow man's wife nor approaches a woman in her period of separation,

7And wrongs no man; what has been pledged for a debt he returns; [he] has committed no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry, and clothes the naked with garments,

8Does not lend on interest, nor does he take any increase on a loan, keeps his hand back from wrong, executes true judgment between man and man,

9Has walked in My statutes, and has kept My ordinances to deal truly-he is a righteous man; he shall surely live, says the Lord God.

10If he beget a profligate son, a shedder of blood, and he commits upon his brother any of these [crimes].

11And he does not do all these [good deeds], but has even eaten [offerings of a meal] to the mountains and defiled his fellow man's wife;

12Wronged the poor and the needy, committed robberies, did not return pledges, lifted up his eyes to the idols, committed abomination;

13Gave out on interest, accepted increase on loans -shall he then live? He shall not live! He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood falls back on himself!

14And behold, if he beget a son, who sees all the sins of his father which he has done, and sees and does not do likewise;

15He did not eat on the mountains and did not lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, did not defile his fellow man's wife,

16Wronged no man; did not retain any pledge, and committed no robbery; his bread he gave to the hungry and the naked he covered with clothes;

17From the poor he kept his hand back, interest and increase he did not take; My ordinances he kept, in My laws did he walk-he shall not die for the sins of his father, he shall surely live.

18[But] his father, because he illegally suppressed, committed robbery against his brother and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his sin.

19Yet you say, "Why does the son not bear with the sin of the father?" But the son has practiced justice and righteousness, he has kept all My laws and he carries them out; he shall surely live.

20The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the sin of the father, and a father shall not bear the sin of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.

23Do I desire the death of the wicked? says the Lord God. Is it not rather in his repenting of his ways that he may live?

24And when the righteous repents of his righteousness and does wrong and does like all the abominations that the wicked man did, shall he live? All his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered; in his treachery that he has perpetrated and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.

25Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right!' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is not right? Is it not rather your ways that are not right?

26When a righteous man repents of his righteousness and does wrong and dies on that account; for the wrong that he has done he should die.

27And when a wicked man repents of his wickedness that he has done, and does justice and righteousness, he will keep his soul alive.

28He will see and repent of all his transgressions that he has committed-he shall surely live; he shall not die.

29And yet the house of Israel say, 'The way of the Lord is not right!' Is it My ways that are not right, O house of Israel? Is it not rather your ways that are not right?

30Therefore, every man according to his ways I will judge you, O house of Israel, says the Lord God: repent and cause others to repent of all your transgressions, and it will not be a stumbling block of sin for you.

31Cast away from yourselves all your transgressions whereby you have transgressed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit, and why should you die, O house of Israel!

32For I do not desire the death of him who dies, says the Lord God: so turn away and live!"

Edited by THREE1THREE

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10 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

become the exact sacrifice that would be a perfect substitute on behalf of the mankind.  

Hosea 6:6, God desires mercy not sacrifice this whole sacrifice thing is flawed baseless argument. God has made it clear through His prophets that he desires mercy not sacrifice. Jesus being the ultimate sacrifice is just mere wishful thinking and unjust aswell, I’ve already given a parable how unjust it is. Burnt offerings and sacrifices are just a confirmation of ur sincerity seeking forgiveness.

I Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

Ecclesiastes 12:13 “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.”

Mark 12:28-34

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ f 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ gThere is no commandment greater than these.”

32“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is MORE IMPORTANT THAN ALL BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES.”

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

 

Mathew 5:19-20

19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

mathew 7:24-27

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

John 15:10 

“If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in His love.”

jesus carried out God’s commands. What ever God commands Jesus commands because he is God representative, so if you obey jesus’ commands you are obeying God’s commands because jesus is carrying out God’s commands just like the previous prophets.

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14 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Jeremiah 31:33 is a prophecy about when the Lord would put his law in us and write it on our hearts

Since you haven’t realised how you shot yourself in the leg on that one. Im just gonna show you.

mathew 5:17-20

jesus came to affirm the law and the prophets and it is ur only hope for salavation.

matthew 6 and 7 Jesus teaches how to surpass the Pharisees.

Matthew 7:24-27

jesus again makes it clear to hold on the Law and the prophets and gives an example of the one who puts them into practice and the one who doesn’t 

John 15:10 

In his final moments with his disciples Jesus tells them to hold on to the Law to be in his love and God’s love. 

Mathew 15: it shows that the Jews weren’t adhering to all of God’s Law and the were adhering to mere human rules. Thus God used jesus to bring up His laws back to the lost sheep of Israel. 

Hence why in Isaiah Jesus is called the messanger of the covenant. 

 

 

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@Dave follower of The Way To discredit the Bible would imply that the "Injeel" Muslims believe according to the Quran based on these verses is not the Bible.

Here are the many instances which the term Injil is being referred to in The Quran explicitly and the many translations accompanying it,

https://quran.com/3/48?translations=57,21,18

https://quran.com/3/3?translations=57,21,18

https://quran.com/5/47?translations=21,18

https://quran.com/3/65?translations=21,18

https://quran.com/5/66?translations=21,18

https://quran.com/5/68?translations=21,18

https://quran.com/9/111?translations=21,18

https://quran.com/5/110?translations=21,18

https://quran.com/57/27?translations=21,18

Hence it is an explicit statement that The Injeel is a Singular Gospel which was revealed to Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام).

Some Muslims believe The Bible is the Injeel but in an adulterated state. While others like me believe otherwise where The Bible =/= The Injeel of Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام). Now why would I think that?

The Arabic Term "Injeel" means Gospel. The word Gospel means "Good News" or "Glad Tidings" and is derived from the Greek word "Evangelion". Gospel sounds singular in term, but plural in meaning which is contradictory. I would wager that by extending the original meaning of the term Gospel it implies that it means "A Book/A Pack/A Box/A Paper or Something that contains Good News". Now that makes more sense than just simply "Good News".

Does the term Gospel literally mean The Bible? I don't think so.

What would BE the Arabic Term of "The Bible" if The Bible is NOT The "Injeel" then?

Well this is where the confusion accelerates if you were to research about this matter, but here's a snippet from what I dug up so far,

Quote

https://www.translate.com/english-arabic

Bible = الكتاب المقدس (AKA Al-Kittaab Al-Muqaddas)

 

 

Quote
Bible = الكتاب المقدس, العهدان القديم والجديد

The Arabic Language is very Context Sensitive, so whether the term Bible actually means Injeel in the Quran is a matter of dispute/debate between not just Christians and Muslims, but even for Muslims themselves.

Ok then so what is The Bible to me just from my experience then? It's simply a collection of the previous scriptures ranging from the first five books of the Old Testament which constitutes the Torah, from the rest of the books being written by The God of Abraham knows whom. The lack of authorship remains a mystery. Not only that, but even disregarding the Old Testament and strictly focusing on the New Testament we have 4 Gospels to deal with that make up the 27 books of the NT.

But here's my personal analogy that sums up what the Bible and the Injeel are to me,

The Injeel (Gospel) is a Movie that is worth watching and The Bible is a collection of the 'alleged' previous scriptures written by a bunch of unknown people giving off their reflections of what they consider the Injeel of Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) along with the previous scriptures to be. As in, The Bible's mysterious authors are no different from Movie Critics giving off their Reviews of The Movie and providing their perspectives plus shedding their personal reflections of The Movie. Not that watching a Review of The Movie is a bad thing, but it's not the same thing as watching The Movie. Hence, The Bible =/= The Injeel of Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام).

Feel free to disagree with my analogy if you wish, but its close enough for me in terms of understanding.

In the Quran, given how explicit these verses are it seems clear that there is only 1 Gospel which was strictly attributed to Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) from which he taught to his stern and devout disciples throughout his life. I'm willing to believe that the Injeel the Quran speaks of is lost through time and The Bible contains remnants of Injeel (a mere reminder) that such a Holy Book of Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) once existed long ago. Too bad such people were all killed by the Roman Emperors from the likes of Caligula and Nero given their persecution and killings of followers of Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) from 0 AD - 100 AD.

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20 minutes ago, ZethaPonderer said:

@Dave follower of The Way To discredit the Bible would imply that the "Injeel" Muslims believe according to the Quran based on these verses is not the Bible.

Here are the many instances which the term Injil is being referred to in The Quran explicitly and the many translations accompanying it,

https://quran.com/3/48?translations=57,21,18

https://quran.com/3/3?translations=57,21,18

https://quran.com/5/47?translations=21,18

https://quran.com/3/65?translations=21,18

https://quran.com/5/66?translations=21,18

https://quran.com/5/68?translations=21,18

https://quran.com/9/111?translations=21,18

https://quran.com/5/110?translations=21,18

https://quran.com/57/27?translations=21,18

Hence it is an explicit statement that The Injeel is a Singular Gospel which was revealed to Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام).

Some Muslims believe The Bible is the Injeel but in an adulterated state. While others like me believe otherwise where The Bible =/= The Injeel of Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام). Now why would I think that?

The Arabic Term "Injeel" means Gospel. The word Gospel means "Good News" or "Glad Tidings" and is derived from the Greek word "Evangelion". Gospel sounds singular in term, but plural in meaning which is contradictory. I would wager that by extending the original meaning of the term Gospel it implies that it means "A Book/A Pack/A Box/A Paper or Something that contains Good News". Now that makes more sense than just simply "Good News".

Does the term Gospel literally mean The Bible? I don't think so.

What would BE the Arabic Term of "The Bible" if The Bible is NOT The "Injeel" then?

Well this is where the confusion accelerates if you were to research about this matter, but here's a snippet from what I dug up so far,

 

The Arabic Language is very Context Sensitive, so whether the term Bible actually means Injeel in the Quran is a matter of dispute/debate between not just Christians and Muslims, but even for Muslims themselves.

Ok then so what is The Bible to me just from my experience then? It's simply a collection of the previous scriptures ranging from the first five books of the Old Testament which constitutes the Torah, from the rest of the books being written by The God of Abraham knows whom. The lack of authorship remains a mystery. Not only that, but even disregarding the Old Testament and strictly focusing on the New Testament we have 4 Gospels to deal with that make up the 27 books of the NT.

But here's my personal analogy that sums up what the Bible and the Injeel are to me,

The Injeel (Gospel) is a Movie that is worth watching and The Bible is a collection of the 'alleged' previous scriptures written by a bunch of unknown people giving off their reflections of what they consider the Injeel of Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) along with the previous scriptures to be. As in, The Bible's mysterious authors are no different from Movie Critics giving off their Reviews of The Movie and providing their perspectives plus shedding their personal reflections of The Movie. Not that watching a Review of The Movie is a bad thing, but it's not the same thing as watching The Movie. Hence, The Bible =/= The Injeel of Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام).

Feel free to disagree with my analogy if you wish, but its close enough for me in terms of understanding.

In the Quran, given how explicit these verses are it seems clear that there is only 1 Gospel which was strictly attributed to Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) from which he taught to his stern and devout disciples throughout his life. I'm willing to believe that the Injeel the Quran speaks of is lost through time and The Bible contains remnants of Injeel (a mere reminder) that such a Holy Book of Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) once existed long ago. Too bad such people were all killed by the Roman Emperors from the likes of Caligula and Nero given their persecution and killings of followers of Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام) from 0 AD - 100 AD.

The word “bible” stems from the Greek word “Biblos” which means “Book” so when it says “Holy bible” it’s pretty much saying “the Holy book” which you are correct on. 

“Euangelion” means “Enjeel” when you open the NT it says for example euangelion of John, “Gosepl of John”. When the Quran talks about the gospel most of the time it refers to the Gospel that was revealed to jesus.

in Arabia the Christians saw the 4 gospels as one, hence why you see the Quran telling them to judge by the gospel not gospels. 

Edited by THREE1THREE

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40 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

The word “bible” stems from the Greek word “Biblos” which means “Book” so when it says “Holy bible” it’s pretty much saying “the Holy book” which you are correct on. 

“Euangelion” means “Enjeel” when you open the NT it says for example euangelion of John, “Gosepl of John”. When the Quran talks about the gospel most of the time it refers to the Gospel that was revealed to jesus.

in Arabia the Christians saw the 4 gospels as one, hence why you see the Quran telling them to judge by the gospel not gospels. 

Amen. Thanks for further clarification. Furthermore, many Christians disagree with themselves for how many total books constitute The Bible as a whole.

Found this in Quora,

https://www.quora.com/How-many-books-are-in-the-Old-Testament-and-how-many-in-the-New-Testament?share=1

Quote
main-thumb-793502604-200-xyvynopuxquvjllcivyiaycsoangcvfs.jpeg
Malovia Luchesi, Eastern Orthodox
Answered September 18, 2019 · Author has 75 answers and 8.6K answer views
 

It depends on what Bible you consult. There are 77 traditionally in Orthodox canons, 73 in Catholic canons, and 66 in Protestant canons. Contrary to Protestant belief, the Jewish canons were not stable at the time of the Incarnation. Greek speaking Jews used the Septuagint, and it was so popular that it was considered sacred until the Christians began using them. This Septuagint, in any form, included the Deuterocanon. Various lists used them and Eusebius records the presence of these books as did Athanasius. Jews used them as well until later development excluded them (like how later development led to Protestants removing the seven books from their canon). In the life of the church, Deuterocanon was considered spiritually useful, much how Esther is never quoted from and how some biblical historians consider the book a historical novella rather than factual history.

But yes, it depends on which one you consult. Ethiopian canons tend to have more also.

Orthodox = 77

Catholic = 73 (46 OT; 27 NT)

Protestant = 66 (39 OT; 27 NT)

From the perspective of a Muslim, What the heck? I give up. :surrender:

May The God of Abraham explain everything that has happened within Humanity during Judgement Day so that this confusion becomes clear. I don't care if I go to Hell or Heaven. That's between me and Him and for Him to decide where I go. As long as God Himself provides the Truth of every single event in Humanity that has transpired that alone will put my mind and heart at peace.

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8 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

Hosea 6:6, God desires mercy not sacrifice this whole sacrifice thing is flawed baseless argument. God has made it clear through His prophets that he desires mercy not sacrifice. Jesus being the ultimate sacrifice is just mere wishful thinking and unjust aswell, I’ve already given a parable how unjust it is. Burnt offerings and sacrifices are just a confirmation of ur sincerity seeking forgiveness.

I Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

Ecclesiastes 12:13 “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.”

Mark 12:28-34

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ f 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ gThere is no commandment greater than these.”

32“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is MORE IMPORTANT THAN ALL BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES.”

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

 

Mathew 5:19-20

19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

mathew 7:24-27

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

John 15:10 

“If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in His love.”

jesus carried out God’s commands. What ever God commands Jesus commands because he is God representative, so if you obey jesus’ commands you are obeying God’s commands because jesus is carrying out God’s commands just like the previous prophets.

This is why sacrifices never could remove sin. You’re taking random verses and cherry-picking them out to try and prove your points. It doesn’t work like that. You need to look at the whole story. God did not want people to just do animal sacrifices just for the sake of doing them. They and his laws were supposed to lead the people to his heart and to love him and others more. The sacrifices were not supposed to be done just to complete a command. Neither were the laws. But that’s how the people were practicing them. They would complete laws and sacrifices and then be wicked to others. That’s not what God desires. He would rather them be loving to one another and especially the weak of society. This does not nullify the symbolic nature of the sacrifices though. They still are a foreshadowing of the ultimate sacrifice to come. Jesus’s sacrifice is done out of love and obedience. It’s very unlike the people’s’ sacrifices. If God never wanted sacrifices to be done to begin with he could have never asked for them anyway, from those before the law and after. Sacrifices acted as a covering of sins,  or a removal. It showed the wretchedness of sin and how something had to shed its blood for you so that you could continue living. When God says he does not desire sacrifice it has to do with the people’s hearts in ancient Israel and is not discredit his perfect sacrifice done out of purity, love and mercy. The whole system itself was pointing to Jesus in a subtle way. Jesus would be the sacrificial lamb, the priest that would sacrifice it, the perfect human mediator between God and man, and he would take his sacrifice not to a human altar in a human tent or temple, but to his Father in heaven. 

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11 hours ago, Nathan said:

that there is a need for God to step in to save us by His great mercy! Every sinful action committed by one of God's chosen points to the need for a Savior that's outside of ourselves. I believe this Savior is Jesus. :)

Read Ezekiel 18:1-32 

“Is it not I, The Lord? And there is No other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior,There is none except Me” Isaiah 45:21

Mathew 5:19-20

 

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45 minutes ago, tdawg626 said:

This is why sacrifices never could remove sin. You’re taking random verses and cherry-picking them out to try and prove your points. It doesn’t work like that.

It’s not cherry picking it all adds up. You saying “it’s all cherry picking” doesn’t justify anything at all. They are crystal clear.

you as Always take everything out of context.

Sacrifices were done to confirm the sincerity of their forgiveness of their minor sins not greater sins greater sins didn’t accept sacrifice as confirmation rather it required that you turn away from your wicked ways and seek forgiveness and adhere to God’s Law. God desires that they just seek forgiveness and make things right on the get go instead of sacrificing. In short God wants the Jews to move on to another step which is to understand God’s infinite mercy without them feeling the need to sacrifice.

I Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

 

the verse is clear as daylight God desires that they turn away from their minor sin by just obeying God instead of sacrificing to show ur sincerity of forgiveness. Hearing the laws and understanding them is a form of seeking forgiveness as we can see since its greater than fat rams. 

53 minutes ago, tdawg626 said:

Neither were the laws

Yes they were it is God’s commands. It’s called commandments for a reason they are to be obeyed which gives a person salvation and wisdom.

the one who’s doesn’t will perish in the here after.

Ezekiel 18:25-30

25Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right!' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is not right? Is it not rather your ways that are not right?

26When a righteous man repents of his righteousness and does wrong and dies on that account; for the wrong that he has done he should perish.

27And when a wicked man repents of his wickedness that he has done, and does justice and righteousness, he will keep his soul alive.

28He will see and repent of all his transgressions that he has committed-he shall surely live; he shall not perish.

29And yet the house of Israel say, 'The way of the Lord is not right!' Is it My ways that are not right, O house of Israel? Is it not rather your ways that are not right?

30Therefore, every man according to his ways I will judge you, O house of Israel, says the Lord God: repent and cause others to repent of all your transgressions, and it will not be a stumbling block of sin for you.

 

54 minutes ago, tdawg626 said:

They would complete laws and sacrifices and then be wicked to others. That’s not what God desires. He would rather them be loving to one another and especially the weak of society

This is exactly how you try to take verses out of context to try and fit in jesus. 

The law is their to culture a person and and turn him way from wicked things and walk in righteousness and be saved.

James 2:14-19

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Deuteronomy 30:8-17

“8And you will return and listen to the voice of the Lord, and fulfill all His commandments, which I command you this day.

9And the Lord, your God, will make you abundant for good in all the work of your hands, in the fruit of your womb, in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your soil. For the Lord will once again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your forefathers,

10when you obey the Lord, your God, to observe His commandments and His statutes written in this Torah scroll, [and] when you return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

11For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away.

12It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"

13Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"

14Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.

15Behold, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil,

16inasmuch as I command you this day to love the Lord, your God, to walk in His ways, and to observe His commandments, His statutes, and His ordinances, so that you will live and increase, and the Lord, your God, will bless you in the land to which you are coming to take possession of it.

17But if your heart deviates and you do not listen, and you will be drawn astray, and you will prostrate yourself to other deities and serve them,”

Mathew 5:19-20

“19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, YOU WILL CERTAINTY NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.”

Matthew 7:24-27

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Mathew 5:17

“17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”

james 2:8-11

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.”If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

 

1 hour ago, tdawg626 said:

This does not nullify the symbolic nature of the sacrifices though.

It does. Ur just arrogant. Trying to fit in ur unjust doctrine of God simply forgiving sinner without a chastisement. 

Deuteronomy 8:5-6

5You shall know in your heart, that just as a man chastises his son, so does the Lord, your God, chastise you.

6And you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, to go in His ways, and to fear Him.

hosea 6:6 is crystal clear. 

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1 hour ago, ZethaPonderer said:

From the perspective of a Muslim, What the heck? I give up. :surrender:

The original Septuagint doesn’t exsist anymore it was originally the 5 Books of Moses, today’s “Septuagint” was created by the Greek church farthers matter of fact they even mistranslate the important parts of the Law aswell. “Christians” use their Septuagint to justify their beliefs because the Hebrew gives them no chance. 

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On 6/24/2020 at 10:49 AM, The Green Knight said:

Pardon me but it is nonsensical for one thing. There were no women left on Earth for Lot? He was not a secular, temporal monarch to be so much worried about having a male offspring. Both his daughters were indecent? And he too? An incestual man can be a prophet and man of God? What is this? Preposterous. This quoted part is very clearly a distortion, inserted into the Bible by some monarch. Its obvious. It totally and royally destroys the standards of righteousness and morality. Its a grievous blasphemy. And Bible is riddled with such distortions. Some argue that its not even the real Bible that came from God.

Secondly, and pardon me again but why would you defend Genesis or OT anyway? Its Jewish and Jews wanted Jesus killed didn't they? Whats going on? Now you do have to not be offended I beg you, otherwise the purpose of my post will be conveniently lost. All of this seems extremely unbelievable and nonsensical to an outsider to be perfectly honest. Even highly offensive. Would I let my children read it? Never. There is not a speck of such profanity and evil and immorality in our Quran. There, I "discredited the Bible" some more. And I believe all peoples have the right to do so.

Hey Green Knight,

Thanks for your honest thoughts! I really appreciate getting to hear what you think when you read passages such as this.

Regarding Lot, he and his daughters lived in a cave because they were afraid to live in Zoar and likely any other place. So yes, there were other people on the earth but they were afraid to go anywhere and that's why Lot's daughters behaved as they did. After all, they had been living in Sodom and Gomorrah-wouldn't you be afraid to live somewhere else when you didn't know if the people would be like that? It is obvious that their behavior was unjustifiably indecent and sinful as you said. As @Ashvazdanghe said, Muslims believe that all of the prophets were perfect which, by the way Ash- I didn't know so thank you for sharing that with me! Christians believe that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Only Jesus lived a sinless life. I personally don't see how Muslims can say that the Bible is corrupt but that the Qu'ran is free from corruption but we can agree to disagree.

Regarding what you say about the OT, the Jews are the people chosen by God through Abraham. It wasn't the Jews who killed Jesus, it was some Jews. And if Jesus had come to earth and been a part of any country on earth, He would have been crucified by whatever people He came to love. 

The entire Bible is one Book. Genesis is about God creating a perfect world, mankind corrupting the world by sinning, and God promising that the offspring of man would overcome the devil in the end. The rest of the Old Testament is about God working out His plan to reconcile mankind back to God and doing that through the seed of Abraham. Then Jesus is the promised Redeemer who actually becomes sin on behalf of sinful man and dies only to be raised from the dead on the 3rd day and then soon after ascending to be with the Father. From the book of Acts until Jude, the Bible is about the spread of this good news through Jesus' disciples. And the the book of Revelation is a vision of what will be when Christ returns and takes His followers with Him into the presence of God into a place prepared for us. This is an extremely brief summary but just wanted you to know in a nutshell that the OT cannot be seperated from the NT and vice versa.

I admire that you are careful about what your children read and learn. Sadly, in this day and age, I feel like many people let their children do whatever they want and this is reeking havoc on our world. We should be careful about at what age our children are when we teach from certain passages of the Bible but we should not censor the Word of God. It is written as it is to teach us about who God is and what His character is like. We have examples of what He likes in the Bible and we also have examples of what He hates in the Bible. Because the Bible is true, it's about real people who did mess up but there were those who repented and who had a good relationship with the Lord.

Thanks again for your thoughts and I hope that this is helpful. :)

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1 hour ago, Nathan said:

Christians believe that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Only Jesus lived a sinless life. I personally don't see how Muslims can say that the Bible is corrupt but that the Qu'ran is free from corruption but we can agree to disagree.

I’ve proven that wrong and have shown that it is part of theology to believe all prophets are infallible which shows that the Tanakh is partially corrupted as I’ve shown the Quran saying the previous scriptures are partially corrupted and only have a portion of the scripture not the whole scripture. You also tried to take a verse out of context to say “it’s about distorting the meaning of the words” when you have no clue of the Arabic grammar. 

Jeremiah 8:8 “8How do you say, "We are wise, and Torah of Yahweh is with us"? Verily, behold it is the vain pen , he made a false scribe'.

thats the closet to the transliteration. The verse is crystal clear. The Torah is partially corrupted. 

1 hour ago, Nathan said:

And the the book of Revelation

Book of revelation wasn’t in any of first two canonised bibles until the third was formed by the trinitarians.  So the book revalations is useless. 

 

1 hour ago, Nathan said:

Then Jesus is the promised Redeemer who actually becomes sin on behalf of sinful man and dies only to be raised from the dead on the 3rd day

Wishul fantasies. 

No messianic passage says that, Isaiah 53 is about Jeremiah and also contradicts your claims about and is not a messianic passage. Plus ur Christian bible deliberately conceals some words to supper their doctrine. Plus it’s not even a messianic passage.

have a look at “trinitarian fantasies” 

Edited by THREE1THREE

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