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In the Name of God بسم الله
Dave follower of The Way

Do Muslims have the right to discredit the Bible?

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I haven't been on ShiaChat for many weeks, but have enjoyed and found interesting many of the posts and discussions.  It's great to be able to be together sharing and learning from each other.  I have noticed something which makes me uncomfortable (sorry to share my feelings)

As a Follower of Jesus I use the Bible as my standard for faith, belief and conduct.  See NT 2 Timothy chapter 3:15-17

Remember that ever since you were a child, you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching the truth, rebuking error, correcting faults, and giving instruction for right living, 17 so that the person who serves God may be fully qualified and equipped to do every kind of good deed.

Unfortunatly there are people who when they read my posts, instead of engaging with the text and what is written, they start to critize and deconstruct the Bible.  They try to discredit a text which has been the guidence of life for many good and upright people for two thousand years and more. 

I want to know whether you think that a Muslim has the right to treat the scriptures, which I base my life on and which the Qur'an teaches have light and guidence, in a pajoritive way?

As a follower of Jesus, I don't see the Qur'an in the same way as a Muslim does, but I seek to respect it and learn from what it says and through it's teaching to understand my Muslim brothers and sisters better.  I would expect Muslims to do the same for my (our?) Holy book.

What do you think?

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I have this Christian friend who brings some passages from the Bible and I bring some verses from the Quran. I admit it is good to focus on the content rather than dismissing an entire passage. When one party focuses on dismissing the entire passage, the other party will get defensive, and it goes nowhere.

I do have  question for you - Has the bible been altered over the years? What is your opinion?

 

 

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Perhaps there is fear that it could be true and that would then require someone to have to leave everything they know and completely have a new identity and even loose their culture because that is how radical the WAY is.   It is hard to have a conversation if respect is not given to the Holy Scriptures, so I hope you find

some folks to have a kind of talk where there is 2 way respect.  In the past those who lost a debate had to turn to the belief of the one who won the debate.

This meant that both sides had to really listen and learn and have an open mind and heart and not just dismiss an entire literary work with legitimate manuscripts.

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You believe jesus is God the Quran says otherwise 

surah 5:16 “They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.”

 

Surah 5:77 “Say, ‘O People of the Scripture, do not exceed limits in your religion beyond the truth and do not follow the inclinations of a people who had gone astray before and misled many and have strayed from the soundness of the way.’”

I’m pretty sure I’ve made things clear concerning the truth contained in the Gospel and Torah yet you neglect the clear verses and go further to find a bad translation ? 

Surah 3:71 “O People of the Scripture, why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?

Yes Muslims discredit the parts of the Tanakh and Gospel that contradicts the truth that is contained withnin them. 

 

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The law contained in the Torah has been preserved. 

Tanakh Deuteronomy 13:1 

“1Everything I command you that you shall be careful to do it. You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it.”

and Jesus came to confirm it and fulfil it and fulfil the original message of the previous prophets and messagers. 

Mathew 5:17-20

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 The Quran testifies to these aswell. 

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On 5/30/2020 at 1:09 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

What do you think?

Hello brother, Bible contains some truths but the rest is corrupted through centuries of removing and adding to it, therefore unlike the Holy Quran, it’s not a divine document. Among Christian denominationsthere is disagreement about what should be included in the canon, primarily about the biblical apocrypha, a list of works that are regarded with varying levels of respect. Not only nowadays there is not a single version of the Bible, unlike the Quran, Christians established over 30,000 different Churches and all claim to follow the right way as understood by their own interpretations of the Bible. Therefore one can see many weaknesses in being a Christian and claiming to follow Biblical teachings when there isn’t a singular, uniformed theological belief, not a scriptural basis. 

Edited by OrthodoxTruth

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15 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

30,000 different Churches

Islam supposedly has 73 sects and all of them have their own interpretation of the Quran..... 

 

I personally belief the Gospels contains truth within them, if we combine the truth contained within them and put them in chronological order  we would have a new reliable evangel that is full of guidance and light. 

 

As for the Tanakh some the Christian sects have restored some of the prophetic writings which the Jews neglected even after finding them in the Dead Sea scrolls perfectly persevered in Aramaic and Hebrew!! And books that belong to Messengers which contain truth within them. 

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37 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Islam supposedly has 73 sects and all of them have their own interpretation of the Quran..... 

It has been explained already, for example here. 73 sects differ in religious interpretations but all have the same version of the Holy Quran. Christians differ in interpretations based on different versions of the Bible. That’s a huge difference. Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants all have different versions of the Bible with removed or added text that dramatically alters the meaning of purported message. 

Quote

I personally belief the Gospels contains truth within them, if we combine the truth contained within them and put them in chronological order  we would have a new reliable evangel that is full of guidance and light. 

With due respect, but you have no right to establish new religious understanding based on personal thoughts, we don’t do that in orthodox Islam. 

Edited by OrthodoxTruth

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18 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

With due respect,

It does become hassan, the gospel we have today is a seerah like the seerah of prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)&hf), once it is reconstructed it can be reliable unlike the Torah where the stores are really corrupted and barely can be reconstructed. 

21 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

Christians differ in interpretations based on different versions of the Bible.

All Christians believe in the same gospels they just have different interpretations. 

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Insecure people often feel threatened by difference; and one way to cope with this insecurity is to attack or ridicule others who hold different beliefs or things they hold sacred. You can see an example of that in Christians who ridicule the Prophet Muhammad or attack the Quran, and also in Muslims who ridicule or attack the Bible.

Christians or Muslims who are strong in their faith do not feel threatened; and therefore, do not feel a need to attack other faiths.

As Muslims, we are encouraged to appreciate words of wisdom, regardless of where we find them. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, says:
الحِكمةُ ضالَّةُ المؤمنِ حيثُ وجدَها فَهوَ أحقُّ بِها
Wisdom is the lost property of the believer;
wherever he finds it, he has the greatest right to it.

Imam Ali says:
لا تنظر إلى من قال وانظر إلى ما قال
Do not consider who may have said a thing; but consider what is said."

Unfortunately, many of us simply do not follow this advice and instead of evaluating the content of what is being said, we attack or criticise the source.

Edited by thegreenleaf

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On 5/29/2020 at 8:09 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

They try to discredit a text which has been the guidence of life for many good and upright people for two thousand years and more. 

Shakespeare books , and psychology books can be used for teaching people, but that doesn’t make them a book by God.

those parts of bible that are not inline with word of god in Quran is discreditable .

Edited by Arminmo

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On 5/29/2020 at 9:09 PM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I want to know whether you think that a Muslim has the right to treat the scriptures, which I base my life on and which the Qur'an teaches have light and guidence, in a pajoritive way?

Satan-Saul from Babylon, a.k.a. Paul, who preached the Words of the Devil in the name of Jesus is whom you quote.

The Gospels -Matty, Mark and Luke- all teach that it is Satan, filthy devils, the possessed by demons who say to Jesus "son of g.od".

Our "pejorative" attitude is defined by your own Bible -corrupted as it is.

So why do you whine?

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7 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

.                                                                                                             wishes

All Christians believe in the same gospels they just have different interpr^tations.

My comment by change of word.

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On 5/30/2020 at 2:46 AM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I do have  question for you - Has the bible been altered over the years? What is your opinion?

I think you have asked a serious question which demands a serious answer.

Dispite what some of the above posts claim I have no doubt that it has not been changed over the years.

There is enough evedence to show early sources and careful copying of original texts.  The wide distribution of the NT documents very soon after they were writen goes against the possibility of corruption or diliberate change by a central authority figure (incidently there wasn't one for many years after Jesus)

Early NT texts have been found in many places and they are all extreemly similar.

All existing modern translations of the Bible are based on ancient texts in the original languages or translations done close to the time of writing.

Those people who say the Bible/New testament has been changed or corupted have to prove it be showing where, when and by whom the changes were made.

I would also suggest that those people who put forward the suggestion that the Bible has been changed have a strange veiw of God.  God speaks his word to direct people into the truth and into a loving relationship with himself.

  • Is he so week that he can not protect this vital and life changing message?
  • Is he so ignorant that he doesn't realize that his words have been changed?
  • Is he so immoral that he doesn't care that people are following a lie?

I do not believe in a God like this - do you?

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39 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Is he so week that he can not protect this vital and life changing message?

How do you know if God willed this to happen to test weather someone is a true believer or not.... what if the gospel was intended to be persevered through reconstruction via the law and the prophets and history to test if some is a true believer or not.

45 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Is he so immoral that he doesn't care that people are following a lie?

The Law has been persevered so judge by law concerning truth and falsehood

the Quran confirms 

5:43

But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.

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7 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

do not believe in a God like this - do you?

Whatever you can call it, I think you do admit that it hasn't been entirely preserved. The amazing thing about the Quran is that it's script has been preserved over the years, there is logical and scriptural proof which attests to this fact. 

Even an ancient Quran which was discovered in England, shows how it had not changed. It's really amazing. Not a single Muslim on planet denies this.

God had decided to protect his final book. He allowed the previous ones to be corrupted but that's not even relevant. It's logical to hold on to the latest and updated version. God wanted to expose people's evil tendencies to change scripture and lead people astray. 

7 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Is he so immoral that he doesn't care that people are following a lie?

He revealed the Quran, the unaltered book. This in itself is the greates miracle. Now if people hold on to their old altered books, that's because of their inability to recognize the truth. The ones who become Muslims and follow the Quran, don't feel that God is immoral or isn t kind.

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On 6/2/2020 at 2:57 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Dispite what some of the above posts claim I have no doubt that it has not been changed over the years.

By "Bible" which Bible exactly do you mean when you say it hasn't been changed? 

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On 6/1/2020 at 4:47 PM, THREE1THREE said:

How do you know if God willed this to happen to test weather someone is a true believer or not.... what if the gospel was intended to be persevered through reconstruction via the law and the prophets and history to test if some is a true believer or not.

Does God test us by alowing his truth to be courupted so that we still think it is his truth? 

Not the God I worship and serve!  He is a God who is always faithful, aleways true and always trustworthy and who never lies.

The Old testament is there for us - we can look at how God has revealed himself over history and see the steps he has taken to restore relationship with himeslf and to prepare us for the ultimate relationship restorer.  The Old Testament and the New testament hold together and need no reconstruction.

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On 6/1/2020 at 5:49 PM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

God had decided to protect his final book. He allowed the previous ones to be corrupted

A story that may be relevent

There once was a very clever tradesman who worked hard in his business and became rich.  He bought beautiful paintings and elaborate ornaments with his money and stored them in a room in his house.  He would call his friends around to enjoy them. One day when he was out at the market a robber came in, ransacked his house and stole all his treasures.  When he arrived home, he was angry and disappointed.   “Oh well,” He said, “I’ll start again.”

As he was clever and hardworking, he was quickly able to recover from his loss and was soon buying new treasures with the profit from his businesses.  Again, he displayed them in a room in his house.  His relatives and friends returned to admire these new acquisitions.  Yes, they were truly very beautiful.  However, one night while he was asleep, a group of bandits broke into his house and took away these valuables.  When he woke in the morning, he found them all gone.  “Oh no,” he said, “What a shame.”

Of course, he continued to work hard and before long started to collect more and more amazing items and interesting artifacts.  This time his display really was amazing and not only friends, relatives and neighbours came to look, but people travelled from distant places to enjoy his collection.  After a while he heard of a sick friend and went to visit him.  While he was gone, some art thieves come with a big lorry and drove off with his treasures. When he got home, his house was empty!  “Oh dear!” he said, “How did that happen?”

This tradesman was not put off by misfortune and so started to set out again to accumulate a new collection of beautiful, interesting and rare objects.  He looked far and wide and found items from different cultures and places and brought them together in his house.  He realised that again people were visiting to look at his collection and to admire his treasures. 

Suddenly he had an idea, “All my previous collections have been destroyed, ransacked and disseminated.” He thought, “I know what I will do, I’ll buy a lock and a security system, I’ll fit a burglar alarm and employ a security company.  Then my things are sure to be preserved and I can continue to enjoy them.”

“I don’t know why I didn’t think of that before” He said to himself.

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10 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Does God test us by alowing his truth to be courupted so that we still think it is his truth? 

No, by testing the believer if he/she recognises truth from falsehood and use his/her intellect, the OT was already corrupted , Jeremiah 8:8 in Hebrew it says the Torah of Yahweh. Not the law of the Lord. 

The law is protected but the stories are partially corrupted. 

The gospel(s) has been tampered with so their is truth mixed with falsehood , use the Law as a judgement over the gospel(s) to distinguish truth from falsehood, the Jews know very well that their Torah has been tempered with and only the Law is protected but the deny it arrogantly the same way the the trinitarians deny the clear verses regarding God.  

The test is there to distinguish the true followers between  those who claim to believe.

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8 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

the OT was already corrupted

This is a massive comment and claim - give me the places where it is courupted, and tell when it was changed and by who.

Thank you

8 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

partially corrupted.

If it is only "partially corrupted" we can not trust any onf it.  How do we know which is false and which is true?  We have no standard.

And you are still discrediting God - I can not trust a God who purposely deceives in order to see if I will fall into the trap or not.

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4 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

We have no standard.

It’s part of your theology that prophets are infallible, meaning they can sin but the wouldn’t sin because of their God consciousness. Their are many passages where prophets supposedly sin and to the extent that they worship idols or make an idol to be worshiped. 

When Jesus is being tested by Satan behind this incident is a theology which is infallibility. So it is part of your beliefs to believe the prophets are infallible.

Both the gospel and the Tanakh compliment each other regarding truth between falsehood, the Law helps with the gospel and the gospel helps with the Tanakh. 

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1 minute ago, THREE1THREE said:

It’s part of your theology that prophets are infallible, meaning they can sin

There is no Christian teaching that prophets are infallible - many places, as you say, show they sin. - Not sure what you are getting at.

In the case of Jesus, he could have sined but due to his reliance on the scriptures and his relationship with the Holy Spirit he was able to resist and stand against the devil, giving us an example to follow.  I want to follow someone who was strong enough to resist the whisperings of the devil.

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1 minute ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

n the case of Jesus, he could have sined but due to his reliance on the scriptures and his relationship with the Holy Spirit

It’s due to his relationship with God and the scriptures, like i said prophets can sin but they wouldn’t sin because of their God consciousness, the way the gospel works is behind every incident their is a principle or a theology behind it. Behind this incident is a theology which is infallibility.

I ask you if someone came to you and did a big business deal with you but then he cheated on you, months go by and that person comes back again and says to you “forgive me, I regret what I did with you last time, do you want to make another big business deal ?” Will you enter another business deal with that person ? 

You will see where I am getting just bare with me. 

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On 5/30/2020 at 3:09 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Unfortunatly there are people who when they read my posts, instead of engaging with the text and what is written, they start to critize and deconstruct the Bible. 

I may very well be someone that is guilty of that, but I actually think it is a good thing to know where the bible has been altered. It is not just the Quran that says so. It is evident from reading the early manuscripts of the bible and even church history. I think that one of the reasons that Islam spread so quickly in the early days was because many people knew that the bible was tampered with by those in power in the Roman empire.
I think that Muslims really has the same problem. Not with the Quran, because that has mostly been preserved, but with the hadith's where many has been fabricated in pretty much the same fashion that the Bible has. That doesn't mean that all hadiths has been fabricated. Nor does it mean that the Bible doesn't hold any truth. It only means to be careful and take your precautions when reading these texts.
As a matter of fact I believe that most religions still contain parts of the message of God somewhere in their religious texts to varying degrees. Even in Hindu scriptures or Buddhist scriptures. And I also do think that you can find God through most religions, maybe except for Satanism. However I do believe that the Quran has been sent as an "answer book" in regards to what other religious texts disagree on. The corruption of the message of God is an ongoing process because people would like to see their own understanding justified. Often the corruption is not only in the texts themselves, but also in the interpretation of the texts. For instance trinity is never mentioned in the Bible. It is an interpretation of the church.

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Interfaith dialogue is important, but difficult. There's two pendulum swinging tendencies. One is overly combative, and the other is fear of challenge and critical dialogue. 

People have to believe in respect, frankness, humility, and agree purely on the seeking of truth, putting personal egos, agendas, and tribal affiliations aside. Both sides have to approach the conversation in good faith. But as you can see, there's a million ways it can break down or be compromised, some by malice, but often by misunderstandings. 

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On 6/5/2020 at 4:08 PM, THREE1THREE said:

“forgive me, I regret what I did with you last time, do you want to make another big business deal ?” Will you enter another business deal with that person ?

I can forgive and should forgive - God has forgiven me much more than any sin a person could do against me.  But that doesn't mean I enter in to a new deal.  I need to spend time with the person, love and value them as see if there has been a change. Not just regret but heart transformation.

After all that is what forgiveness does it opens the door to transformation.

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On 6/5/2020 at 10:27 PM, Revert1963 said:

It is not just the Quran that says so.

From my reading of the Qur'an it doesn't say the Bible has been changed.  The Qur'anic verses which are used to support this argument all suggest that the text is reliable but that people using it have misinterpreted it, used it for their own ends, or read it wrongly.  These claims are different from suggesting it has been changed, it is about changing or misusing the interpretation of existing (reliable and God given) texts.  If at the time of the Prophet and the writing of the Qur'an the texts were sound, when were they changed?  All the texts we use to translate the Bible into modern languages were in existence way before the 7th Century.

Just consider Qur'an l-Maidah 5:47  And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

The text here is saying that the Christians should judge by the Gospel. If they don't they are disobedient. There is no indication or claim that it has been corrupted.  If it wasn't really God's words anymore would the Qur'an recommend - even command - that the Gospel was a valid rule of law?

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On 6/6/2020 at 1:02 AM, Brother Hassan said:

Interfaith dialogue is important, but difficult. There's two pendulum swinging tendencies. One is overly combative, and the other is fear of challenge and critical dialogue. 

People have to believe in respect, frankness, humility, and agree purely on the seeking of truth, putting personal egos, agendas, and tribal affiliations aside. Both sides have to approach the conversation in good faith. But as you can see, there's a million ways it can break down or be compromised, some by malice, but often by misunderstandings. 

Malice and misunderstanding are often linked, unfortunately.

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33 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

But that doesn't mean I enter in to a new deal

This clearly shows you haven’t forgiven him and you can’t trust him. Can pure water pass through impure water ? Answer this question. 

Surah 10:35

“...So is He who guides to the truth more worthy to be followed or he who guides not unless he is guided? Then what is [wrong] with you - how do you judge?"

ponder on this verse I’ve already showed infallibility from the Gospel and explained it. 

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28 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

All the texts we use to translate the Bible into modern languages were in existence way before the 7th Century.

Just consider Qur'an l-Maidah 5:47  And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

 

  1. Any translation of any text will always be deficient. If you have the original source at least you have the basis for some discussion. But with the NT you are talking about a translation off a translation.
  2. It's not sufficient to say that God would preserve it. Because which version of the NY did he preserve? The KJV or one of the Catholic versions?
  3. And surely any claims of consistency between the OT and NT can't possibly be sustained since there is such clear difference between the laws being prescribed.
  4. Islam has its sects, but all accept the one copy of the Qur'an.

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1 hour ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

From my reading of the Qur'an it doesn't say the Bible has been changed. 

Well you haven’t read the Quran properly.

Surah 3:23

“Do you not consider, [O Muhammad], those who were given a PORTION of the Scripture? They are invited to the Scripture of Allah that it should arbitrate between them; then a party of them turns away, and they are refusing.” 

The Torah only has some truth in it hence why the Quran “those who were given A PORTION OF THE SCRIPTURE...”

Surah 5:12-13

“And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakah and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allah a goodly loan, I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way."

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good.

Surah 5:14

And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they FORGOT A PORTION of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.

Surah 5:72

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers.

surah 5:73

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment.

surah 5:77

Say, "O People of the Scripture, do not EXCEED LIMITS IN YOUR RELIGION BEYOND THE TRUTH and do not follow the inclinations of a people who had gone astray before and misled many and have strayed from the soundness of the way."

Surah 2:79

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Surah 2:116

They say, " Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, to Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are devoutly obedient to Him,

 

1 hour ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed – then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

The text here is saying that the Christians should judge by the Gospel.

How many times have I told you  jesus came to fulfil the Law? And Judge the gospel by the law to distinguish truth form falsehood contained in the gospel to follow the truth contained in the gospel. 

Surah 3:71 “O People of the Scripture, why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know [it]?

Edited by THREE1THREE

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