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In the Name of God بسم الله

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The Qur’an often refers to God as Sovereign and Lord.  In fact, one of his beautiful names is The Sovereign Al Malik. (20:114 So high [above all] is Allah, the Sovereign, the Truth.) 

The first and the last sura both refer to God as Sovereign and Lord. 

One of the best know verses of the Qur’an Ayat al Kursi (Qur’an 2:255) talks about God’s throne (His throne includes the heavens and the earth) which is clearly a symbol of his reign and rule of authority which he has had eternally.  Particularly since creation, a number of verses (7:54,10:3, 11:7 & 13:2) refer to God established Himself above the Throne after the creation of the world.

There is another term “Lord of the Worlds” used for God a number of times including a verse 2:131 which says a Muslim is one who submits to God as Lord of the Worlds.

The Bible too refers to God’s kingship and sovereignty

The prophet Isaiah had a vision of God (OT Isaiah Chapter 6:1) I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple.  He later prays to God (Isaiah 63:15) remembering God’s rule symbolised by his throne and says “Look down from heaven and see, from your lofty throne, holy and glorious one.”

David writing Songs of praise about God in the Zebur often refers to God’s throne, his reign and his kingdom.  Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.  Psalm 103:19 The Lord has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.

One of the ancient kings of Israel prayed to God and said (OT 2 Kings Chapter 19:15) “Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.” It is clear that God is ruler and king not just over the world but everyone on it including powerful kingdoms

When Jesus came his main message was to proclaim that the Kingdom of God had come.  (NT Matthew Chapter 4:17) From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”  The rule of God was no long distant but close it could even be within a person. (NT Luke Chapter 17:20-22)

Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (or within you)

A Question

The KIngdom of God and God's Sovereignenty is so important for all of us I would like to share our ideas and thoughts.

God is still King (Al Malik) today.  What do you think God’s Kingdom means?  What does that mean for us as individuals and our communities and countries?

How is God King in your life and what difference does that make?

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Guest OnPoint

In a reply to a Tyrant saying Imams (a) don't have rulership, one of the Imams (a) said "we rule the hearts."

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On 5/29/2020 at 4:52 PM, Guest OnPoint said:

In a reply to a Tyrant saying Imams (a) don't have rulership, one of the Imams (a) said "we rule the hearts."

salam alykum wrwb

Would you kindly elaborate in the form of reference to this so that the lay could compare whether this agrees with Qur'an al Hakeem & The other weight(عليه السلام).

YUSUF ALI

And remember, Moses said to his people: "O my people! why do ye vex and insult me, though ye know that I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you?" Then when they went wrong, Allah let their hearts go wrong. For Allah guides not those who are rebellious transgressors. 61:5

https://islamicpulse.tv/ivideo/when-your-heart-belongs-to-allah-shaykh-bahmanpour/

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On 5/30/2020 at 6:17 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

refer to God established Himself above the Throne after the creation of the world.

These part of the verse are not to be taken literally, it’s is a metaphor meaning God is the governor, ruler, king of the universe and the heavens and whatever is between them.

 

On 5/30/2020 at 6:17 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. 

The verse is about God’s covenant with Jesus. “Your throne(covenant), O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of your justice will be the scepter of your kingdom(government)”

 

On 5/30/2020 at 6:17 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

Psalm 103:19 The Lord has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.

Throne over here also means “covenant” 

 

On 5/30/2020 at 6:17 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

esus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (or within you)

Jesus is referring to the covenant of God which has been established long time ago but got renewed with Jesus. The covenant of God was already in their midst but they neglected it and Jesus came to revive it and reform it. 

 

On 5/30/2020 at 6:17 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

(Isaiah 63:15) remembering God’s rule symbolised by his throne and says “Look down from heaven and see, from your lofty throne, holy and glorious one.”

Isaiah 63:15

“Look from heaven and see, the dwelling of Your holiness and Your glory; where are Your zeal and Your mighty deeds? The yearning of Your heart and Your mercy are restrained to me.”  The “look from heaven” part is an expression meaning “see everything” 

On 5/30/2020 at 6:17 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

OT Isaiah Chapter 6:1) I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple.

Isaiah is over is speaking in a symbolic speech, when he says “ I saw the lord” it is understood the eyes of the heart saw the Lord the Most high and Exalted. When he says “seated on a throne” it simply means authority, ruler, king. When he says “and the train of his robe filled the temple” it simply means a portion of God’s attributes are manifested which filled the earth and temple with God’s glory 

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Jesus many times speaks of the kingdom of God (meaning heaven) in parables. 

He discribes it as a very vast place where all the righteous dwell and no impure person will dwell their. He discribes it in one parable where Lazaro’s is sent to heaven while the rich guy is sent to hell for his misdeeds and arrogance and lazaro’s in a really lofty banquet with prophet Abraham ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) eatimg some nice food. So it is clear that heaven as a physical place which is very prestigious as Jesus has discribed it many times and example is the wedding parable. 

I really enjoy reading these parables and all the parables in general. 

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On 5/31/2020 at 10:48 AM, THREE1THREE said:

it’s is a metaphor meaning God is the governor, ruler, king of the universe and the heavens and whatever is between them.

Yes Three1Three

Pictures of thrones when used for God have to be mataphor because God is beyond restricting himself to a physical location in this way.

The Metaphor points to God's reign and rule.  When God talks of covenant he uses that word.  Covenant and Kingdom, in my understanding, are different.  Covenant is about relationship see OT Jeremiah chapter 31:33

‘This is the covenant that I will make with the people of Israel
    after that time,’ declares the Lord.
‘I will put my law in their minds
    and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
    and they will be my people.

Kingdom on the other hand is about authority and rule

When Jesus talks about "The Kingdom of God/Heaven", he is talking about a place - not just a heaven of the future (though it does include that) but now in our hearts, families and societies - where God's will is done.  As we pray "Your Kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..." We are looking for God's rule.

Where do we see that?  What does it look like?

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1 minute ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Your Kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..."

When Jesus prays to God saying “Your kingdom come..” he is referring to God’s government, as we both know all prophets are God’s representative so when Jesus returns he will establish God’s government the same way God’s government has been established in heaven. 

Jesus uses the term kingdom of God in reference to two things, heaven, covenant this kind of speech is exclusive only to the Gospel. 

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On 5/31/2020 at 10:48 AM, THREE1THREE said:

The verse is about God’s covenant with Jesus.

I'm interested that you see this verse as about a covenant between God and Jesus.  This was writen by a strong monotheist - the prophet David - 1000 years before Jesus came.  Let's look at this verse together with the following one.

Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
    You rule with a scepter of justice.
You love justice and hate evil.
    Therefore God, your God, has anointed you,
    pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.

Let me go through it looking at the words and the people refered to

David the Prophet speaking - he is praising God

Your (God's) throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
    You (God) rule with a scepter of justice.
You (God) love justice and hate evil.
    Therefore God (The one God), your (Who is this?? - The 'you' in verse 6?) God, has anointed (The verb mesih from which comes Messiah) you, (he doesn't say 'me')
    pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.

If we take the 'you' at the end of verse 7 to be referring to the 'you' in verse 6, it would seem that God is anointing himself.

As you say it is a prophesy refering to God's covenant with Jesus - It defines Jesus as as a person who looked to God as God but at the same time is refered to as God.

Interesting ......

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30 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Therefore God, your God, has anointed you,
    pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.

He is talking to someone else as you can clearly see, this verse is a prophecy about Jesus being anointed by God the God of Jesus.  After verse 7 their is a switch and a full stop Prophet David is no longer addressing God, “therefore God, your God,....” simply means “therefore God, your LORD,...” instead of “your Lord” is used “Your God” is used instead. 

It’s says “Your throne, O’God,” 

plus when it says therefore God your God their is a coma before “your God” and after it so it is addressing the person that’s being anointed by God. It’s commonsense and you know very well what is intended I should’nt even give an explanation. 

If that was to be translated in Arabic it would be, “therefore Allah, your Lord or also (just like in Hebrew in this verse) elohik(Your God) “

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Hi Dave,

A good topic. --- As you said in post 1: 

When Jesus came his main message was to proclaim that the Kingdom of God had come.  (NT Matthew Chapter 4:17) From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”  The rule of God was no long distant but close it could even be within a person. (NT Luke Chapter 17:20-22)

Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (or within you)

 

Response: --- The first mention of 'the kingdom of God within' is found in John 14 where Jesus said to the disciples 15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—  the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you."

--- Jesus is speaking about the Holy Spirit who could indwell believers and who represented God within. --- Jesus said, I will ask the Father to give you this Helper. --- Then because Jesus had the Holy Spirit in Himself, he could say --- "He (the Holy Spirit, indwelling the person of Jesus), was 'with them,' and would be 'in them' after the Lord ascended to heaven.

--- Acts 1:4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; 5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” --- 8 You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.” --- And ten days later:

Acts 2:1 "When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

--- It was after this that the Apostles could do the same miracles that Jesus did, because the power of the Holy Spirit of God was in them.

Blessings

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--- To show the evidence that they were filled with the Holy Spirit, Peter, who had never quoted a word of Scripture in his 3 1/2 years with Jesus, now begins to quote the prophecy of Joel, to identify this day when they would be filled with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus had said, "The works that I do you shall do also." --- And the evidence is found in Acts 5:12 "And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon’s Porch. 14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, 15 so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. 16 Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed."

Blessings

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Hi Dave follower of the Way,

I wonder if you have read these verse before, and considered that the Holy Spirit is the power of God to those who follow the Way.

I would like to hear your comments, 

Blessings

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On 6/17/2020 at 10:00 PM, placid said:

I wonder if you have read these verse before, and considered that the Holy Spirit is the power of God to those who follow the Way.

A Kingdom is a place where a King reigns - where his will is done.  If the Kinghdom of God is within us it would follow that in and through us God's will is done.  As a person who is weak and unable to do God's will in my own strength I need God's help.  So when the Kingdom of God comes into my life, God himself through the Holy Spirit is in me to change me and equip me so that I can live as a person who demonstrates God's kingdom.  So, because I want to follow the way of Jesus and accept God's kingdom rule in my life, I ask the Holy Sprit to work with the power of God to change me and use me to show his Kingdom in what I do and say.

Does that help?

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Hi Dave,

Quote from your above post: --- This was written by the prophet David - 1000 years before Jesus came.  Let's look at this verse together with the following one.

Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
    You rule with a scepter of justice.
You love justice and hate evil.
    Therefore God, your God, has anointed you,
    pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.

Let me go through it looking at the words and the people referred to

David the Prophet speaking - he is praising God

Your (God's) throne, O God, endures forever and ever.
    You (God) rule with a scepter of justice.
You (God) love justice and hate evil.
    Therefore God (The one God), your (Who is this?? - The 'you' in verse 6?) God, has anointed (The verb mesih from which comes Messiah) you, (he doesn't say 'me')
    pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else.

Response: --- The Book of Hebrews is quite interesting in the way it uses themes from the former Scriptures and Prophecies. --- If you are going to get into these heavy subjects you have to be prepared for some surprises. All of this is written in Scripture so that it verifies or proves itself, but it is only as the Holy Spirit reveals it that it can be made known.

This Prophecy, written in Psalm 45, couples with other Scriptures gives the information to identify who God is speaking to. I am using the New King James Bible, Psalm 45:

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You 
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

--- This is repeated in Hebrews with more information in Hebrews 1:

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Blessings

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30 minutes ago, placid said:

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

 

On 6/6/2020 at 12:47 AM, THREE1THREE said:

He is talking to someone else as you can clearly see, this verse is a prophecy about Jesus being anointed by God the God of Jesus.  After verse 7 their is a switch and a full stop Prophet David is no longer addressing God, “therefore God, your God,....” simply means “therefore God, your LORD,...” instead of “your Lord” is used “Your God” is used instead. 

It’s says “Your throne, O’God,” 

plus when it says therefore God your God their is a coma before “your God” and after it so it is addressing the person that’s being anointed by God. It’s commonsense and you know very well what is intended I should’nt even give an explanation. 

If that was to be translated in Arabic it would be, “therefore Allah, your Lord or also (just like in Hebrew in this verse) elohik(Your God) “

 

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To continue from above:

--- Starting at verse 8, ‘But to the Son,’ this is the chosen Son, the Word, --- who is also called God in John 1:1
‘He (God) says, Your throne O God is forever and ever, A scepter (symbol of authority) of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.’ --- (So, He is a King.)

1:9 ‘You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.’

--- This speaks of a situation that is another long story, which is from eternity past, from the time that the Lucifer, the ‘anointed cherub’ in heaven rebelled against God and wanted to set up his own kingdom, as it says in Isaiah 14:

12 “How you are fallen from heaven, [d]Lucifer, son of the morning! [d] (day star)  How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit.

--- There is a comparable Scripture in Ezekiel 28:

14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.

15”You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.

16 Therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you, O covering cherub, from the midst of the fiery stones.

17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;

--- So the first sin recorded was ‘pride,’ which developed in the heart of the first ‘anointed cherub.’ --- The second sin was self-exaltation, ‘I will be like the Most High.’

--- This tells us that God did not create sin, but that sin developed in 'a created being that was created perfect,' but through pride rebelled against God, and had to be removed.

The first ‘anointed cherub’ was cast out and down to the earth, as it says in Revelation 12:

3 “And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. 7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

--- In the rebellion in heaven, one third of the cherubim angels had followed Satan and were cast out with him and down to the earth, as evil spirits.

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Hi Dave,

I hope I am not using too much space on your topic, but the Book of Hebrews is kind of like a conclusion to the many prophetic books (like the prophecy of David in the Psalms.) 

--- So I would like to continue from above on Hebrews 1:

--- After Satan and the rebellious cherubim were cast out, --- the two thirds remaining, that had proven themselves to be righteous and obedient to God, needed a new leader, a new ‘Anointed Cherub,’ --- so a choice was made.

1:9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has ‘anointed You’ With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

--- This identifies the Word as the righteous One to be the new leader, chosen from ‘among His companions.’ --- “Therefore God, Your God, has ‘anointed You’ With the oil of gladness.”

Because the Word was the righteous One who ‘loved righteousness and hated lawlessness’ He was the choice.

--- And 1:10 confirms that by saying, And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.”

Wherever in the Scriptures it refers to the ‘creation of the heavens and the earth,’ it always refers to the one ‘through whom all things were made,’ who was the Word, John 1:3.

--- And this is where the Trinitarians make their big mistake. They believe that every time it mentions the Son, it has to refer to Jesus.

 

Hebrews 1:1 “God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 

2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 

3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 

4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.”

--- In the Old Testament God sent many Prophets to the Jews to both guide them, and warn them of the future and how they should be obedient to God to receive His blessing. --- They were disobedient and the last Book, Malachi, speaks of the coming of John the Baptist, and Jesus Christ to institute a New Covenant.

--- So God sent His own delegated Son to earth to ‘Redeem’ mankind.

Hebrews 1:2 “(God) has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things (‘anointing Him’ with the oil of gladness), --- through whom also He made the worlds. John 1:3.

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20 hours ago, placid said:

He (God) says, Your throne O God is forever and ever, A scepter (symbol of authority) of

A God praying to another God.... what kind of “monotheism” is that ? That’s dualism. 

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20 minutes ago, placid said:

They believe that every time it mentions the Son, it has to refer to Jesus.

The Son is jesus. This is where your arrogance and baseless claims beliefs come into play. 

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21 minutes ago, placid said:

So God sent His own delegated Son to earth to ‘Redeem’ mankind.

Because ur lord couldn’t forgive? He simply forgave without discipline? 

Ezekiel 18 read the whole chapter 

read Deuteronomy 8:5-6

Read Mathew 5:17

read Mathew 5:19-20

read John 15:10

read Mathew 7:24-27

read Mathew 15

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To continue from Hebrews

Hebrews 1:2 “Through whom He made the worlds.” And ---

1:3 identifies Him this way, “Who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.” 

John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, ‘the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,’ full of grace and truth.”

--- So the Word was the ‘brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person.’

“when He had by Himself purged our sins,” --- While the Word didn’t go to the cross He was represented in Jesus Christ who went to the cross where human blood was shed to redeem mankind. --- “Without the shedding of blood there is no remission.” Hebrews 9:22.

--- “sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,” --- The Word, the LORD of hosts, when He had finished the work given Him on earth, returned to His position on His throne ‘at the right hand of God, the Majesty on high.’

1:4 Having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten You”?

And again: “I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son”?

--- The sense is that God ‘adopted’ the Son, as His own ‘begotten Son.' --- (Even as we are 'adopted' into the family of God, as it says in Romans 8:14 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”)

--- This ‘begotten’ Son relates again to John 1:18 “No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten [h]Son [h] [God], who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.”

Since the Word is called the ‘only begotten Son,’ --- we see this in relationship to the cross in John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His ‘only begotten Son,’ that whoever believes in Him may not perish but have everlasting life.”

--- And this relates back to Hebrews 1:3 “when He had by Himself purged our sins,” --- While the Word didn’t go to the cross and had no blood to shed, He was ‘represented’ in Jesus Christ who went to the cross, where the human blood of Jesus was shed to redeem mankind. --- So there were ‘transitions’ from the Spiritual Word, and the Spiritual Christ, down to the physical Jesus, who was the one who had blood to shed --- This is another study.

 

1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn (or begotten Son, the one chosen as the new ‘Anointed Cherub’) into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” --- (The Word was now the Leader over them.)

And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.”

1:14 “Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation?” --- (The angels are servants to those who are being saved.)

 

--- Now you may read this with clearer understanding as God calls the Word both Son 1:5, as well as God, John 1:1 and here in saying, “Your throne, O God.”

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

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On 6/27/2020 at 1:34 PM, THREE1THREE said:

Because ur lord couldn’t forgive? He simply forgave without discipline? 

Discipline is about living the consequences of your wrong and shameful actions. Forgiveness doesn’t remove the consequences.  Deuteronomy reminds us that God in his love and mercy provided for and stayed with his people all the way through the wilderness wanderings.  The wilderness time was a time of discipline and learning for them.  They lived the consequences of not obeying God but they still received God’s promise.

The passages you asked us to read explain that keeping God’s commands and laws is vital.  There is no suggestion anywhere in the teaching of Jesus (or Paul) that God no longer wants his people to live a holy and upright life.  In fact, the standards are set high – 100%.  Can I do that?  Can you do that?  No we can’t.

That’s where Ezekiel 18 comes in – what a wonderful passage! It clearly explains that the consequence of not keeping up to God’s extremely high standards is death.  Even though we may think we are ‘righteous’ there are places where we fail.  But God says that although it is important that sin is judged and that people live the consequences of their sin he doesn’t want people to die.

Listen to the heart of God revealed in these verses

Ezekiel 18:23  Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? 

Ezekiel 18:30-32  "Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.   Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?  For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! 

God provides a way for forgiveness.  It comes through his justice and love being satisfied.  But he also provides a new heart and a new spirit.  Forgiveness is costly, it is not an easy and light thing.  But with forgiveness comes the opportunity for a completely new start.  A start where we live the consequences of our sin but with a new heart and a new spirit so we learn from the discipline and our lives are transformed

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2 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

In fact, the standards are set high – 100%.  Can I do that?  Can you do that?  No we can’t.

That’s what you say in hopes to justify your barbaric teaching of jesus dying for your sins and being saved through faith.

God would be unjust if the standards was impossible. Pharisees met the standard The one problem with them was that they were arrogant and took advantage being righteous to seek praise from other people.

hence why in the Matthew 6 majority of the sayings are about not showing off your righteous deeds.

Mathew 23:5-7

5“Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries a wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

Matthew 23:23-24

23“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

14 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

or Paul) that God no longer wants his people to live a holy and upright life. 

You just deliberately lied. 

Galatians 2:16

“16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.”

that’s just one btw i have many more.

 

20 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Ezekiel 18:30-32  "Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.   Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?  For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! 

 

1. God is TELLIMG them “get a new heart and new spirit” what is meant by that is recondition your heart and spirit. 

Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.” 

2. What is the criteria of not being perished once you die ? 

Ezekiel 18:

14And behold, if he beget a son, who sees all the sins of his father which he has done, and sees and does not do likewise;

15He did not eat on the mountains and did not lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, did not defile his fellow man's wife,

16Wronged no man; did not retain any pledge, and committed no robbery; his bread he gave to the hungry and the naked he covered with clothes;

17From the poor he kept his hand back, interest and increase he did not take; My ordinances he kept, in My LAWS DID HE WALK-HE shall not die for the sins of his father, he shall surely live.

18[But] his father, because he illegally suppressed, committed robbery against his brother and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.

19Yet you say, "Why does the son not bear with the sin of the father?" But the son has practiced justice and righteousness, he has kept all My laws and he carries them out; he shall surely live.

20The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the sin of the father, and a father shall not bear the sin of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and KEEPS ALL My LAWS and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.

23Do I desire the death of the wicked? says the Lord God. Is it not rather in his repenting of his ways that he may live?

24And when the righteous repents of his righteousness and does wrong and does like all the abominations that the wicked man did, shall he live? All his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered; in his treachery that he has perpetrated and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.

25Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right!' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is not right? Is it not rather your ways that are not right?

26When a righteous man repents of his righteousness and does wrong and DIES ON THAT ACCOUNT; for the wrong that he has done he should perish.

27And when a wicked man repents of his wickedness that he has done, and does justice and righteousness, he will keep his soul alive.

28He will see and repent of all his transgressions that he has committed-he shall surely live; he shall not perish.

29And yet the house of Israel say, 'The way of the Lord is not right!' Is it My ways that are not right, O house of Israel? Is it not rather your ways that are not right?

 

the condition is,

“20The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the sin of the father, and a father shall not bear the sin of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and KEEPS ALL My LAWS and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

22All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.

23Do I desire the death of the wicked? says the Lord God. IS IT NOT RATHER IN HIS REPENTING OF HIS WAYS THAT HE MAY LIVE?”

 

what happen if you DIE ON THE ACCOUNT OF YOUR WICKED WAYS?

24And when the righteous repents of his righteousness and does wrong and does like all the abominations that the wicked man did, shall he live? All his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered; in his treachery that he has perpetrated and in his sin that he has sinned, in them shall he die.

25Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right!' Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is not right? Is it not rather your ways that are not right?

26When a righteous man repents of his righteousness and does wrong and DIES ON THAT ACCOUNT; for the wrong that he has done he should perish.

so the conclusion is if you die on the account of being righteous by upholding the law you will enter life and if you die in the account of your wicked ways you shall perish and not enter eternal life. 

Is the meaning of,

Ezekiel 18:23  Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? 

Ezekiel 18:30-32  "Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.   Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?  For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live

God makes it clear he desires his servants to enter enter life but at the same time he is just hence Deuteronomy 8:5-6

“5You shall know in your heart, that just as a man chastises his son, so does the Lord, your God, chastise you.

6And you shall keep the commandments of the Lord your God, to go in His ways, and to fear Him.”

stop taking verses out of context, God punishes a person in this word but the person has chance to change that around and do good thus he will receive God’s bounties because of his good deeds. We can see that dislayed all of over the Torah  how arrogant must you be??? Just like a son who disobeys his father gets chastised for not obeying him so does God chastise His servants for not obeying his commandments. 

Deuteronomy 30:

8And you will return and listen to the voice of the Lord, and fulfill all His COMMANDMENTS, which I command you this day.

9And the Lord, your God, will make you abundant for good in all the work of your hands, in the fruit of your womb, in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your soil. For the Lord will once again rejoice over you for good, as He rejoiced over your forefathers,

10when you obey the Lord, your God, to observe His COMMANDMENTS and His statutes written in this Torah scroll, [and] when you return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

11For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor is it far away.

12It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"

13Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"

14Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it.

15Behold, I have set before you today life and good, and death and evil,

16inasmuch as I command you this day to love the Lord, your God, to walk in His ways, and to observe His commandments, His statutes, and His ordinances, so that you will live and increase, and the Lord, your God, will bless you in the land to which you are coming to take possession of it.

17But if your heart deviates and you do not listen, YOU WILL BE DRAWN ASTRAY, AND YOU WILL PROSTRATE YOURSLEF TO OTHER DEITIES and serve THEM,”

 

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19 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

You just deliberately lied. 

Galatians 2:16

“16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.”

that’s just one btw i have many more.

Hey!

You actually didn’t quote Dave’s full statement. He is saying that God desires us to live a holy life. This verse is just demonstrating how one is not justified or made right with God based on works. Look at Ephesians 2:8-10. It’s by grace through faith that we are saved, not by works. However, this does not mean that the law is not good. We just could not fulfill the law; only Christ can fulfill it perfectly. Now that it’s fulfilled we receive the righteousness of Christ through trusting in and relying (faith) in God’s provision for our sin. Look at Romans 3:22.Righteousness is given through faith. The law is not bad; we just could not fully keep it. No one can. But when we come to Christ we receive the promised one to come who is the Holy Spirit who now helps us in our weaknesses and to be able to turn from sin and become more like Christ throughout our lives. 
 

As for Ezekiel 18, here is a good description of what is going on here (look at link below). The Old Testament was a different covenant, the law was not fulfilled, and yes, God expected a lot from his people but if you loved “the Lord God” with all you had, you would do everything he was asking of you. First, people needed to repent and follow God. Second, even the so called “righteous” man’s good deeds won’t save him if he turns away. Read Psalms 14, 53, Isaiah 53, 64, and Ecclesiastes 7. Everyone has sinned and fallen short of God’s glory. In Genesis 15:6 we see Abram believing God and it being credited to him as righteousness. Yes, the Jews were under strict laws. It was for their own good. God required a lot from these people. They were a light to the nations and his chosen people to carry his message. God’s Spirit also did not reside permanently in people at this time. But a person who believed God would naturally follow what he said like Abraham did. There were others in the O.T. who followed laws but their hearts were wicked even though they made the sacrifices, etc. They were God’s children and he did not spare discipline or punishment, especially because they had seen and witnessed so much in their history. They had the laws, prophets, and more and so if someone lived apart from God’s law, it was outright rejection of what they knew to be true. Even a New Testament Christian, if no fruit is displayed in their life, then one would doubt if they even know God. The O.T. does not hide the flaws of any of the prophets or anyone. It’s raw and real. You could do bad things and have a sacrifice done but God would hate it because it wasn’t real or out of love for God. Look at way the Psalmists write. You see a vibrant and loving relationship between God and whoever writes. God is like a mother and father who mourns, fights for, and protects his child Israel.  At many times Israel plays the prostitute, cheating on God. But look at how loving God is like in Hosea! Hosea buys his prostituting wife back among other things. This portrays a loving relationship that God desires with his people, not just completing a list of requirements. But the “righteous” person in Ezekiel 18 demonstrates a person who knows and follows God. Sacrifices would be done on behalf of that person as well. It was done for everyone. We need to see the whole of the story, and we don’t get that from a verse or chapter here and there. It doesn’t work with the Bible. 
 

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/guzik_david/StudyGuide2017-Eze/Eze-18.cfm

 

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On 5/30/2020 at 8:17 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

The Qur’an often refers to God as Sovereign and Lord.  In fact, one of his beautiful names is The Sovereign Al Malik. (20:114 So high [above all] is Allah, the Sovereign, the Truth.) 

 

The first and the last sura both refer to God as Sovereign and Lord. 

 

One of the best know verses of the Qur’an Ayat al Kursi (Qur’an 2:255) talks about God’s throne (His throne includes the heavens and the earth) which is clearly a symbol of his reign and rule of authority which he has had eternally.  Particularly since creation, a number of verses (7:54,10:3, 11:7 & 13:2) refer to God established Himself above the Throne after the creation of the world.

 

There is another term “Lord of the Worlds” used for God a number of times including a verse 2:131 which says a Muslim is one who submits to God as Lord of the Worlds.

The Bible too refers to God’s kingship and sovereignty

 

The prophet Isaiah had a vision of God (OT Isaiah Chapter 6:1) I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple.  He later prays to God (Isaiah 63:15) remembering God’s rule symbolised by his throne and says “Look down from heaven and see, from your lofty throne, holy and glorious one.”

 

David writing Songs of praise about God in the Zebur often refers to God’s throne, his reign and his kingdom.  Psalm 45:6 Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.  Psalm 103:19 The Lord has established his throne in heaven, and his kingdom rules over all.

 

One of the ancient kings of Israel prayed to God and said (OT 2 Kings Chapter 19:15) “Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned between the cherubim, you alone are God over all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth.” It is clear that God is ruler and king not just over the world but everyone on it including powerful kingdoms

 

When Jesus came his main message was to proclaim that the Kingdom of God had come.  (NT Matthew Chapter 4:17) From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”  The rule of God was no long distant but close it could even be within a person. (NT Luke Chapter 17:20-22)

 

Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21 nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.” (or within you)

 

A Question

The KIngdom of God and God's Sovereignenty is so important for all of us I would like to share our ideas and thoughts.

God is still King (Al Malik) today.  What do you think God’s Kingdom means?  What does that mean for us as individuals and our communities and countries?

 

How is God King in your life and what difference does that make?

The kingdom of God is literally everything in existence, literally. 

"Do you not know that Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah you have no guardian or helper?" (Surah 2:107)

The acknowledgement is inward, as Surah Hadid even says: 

"To Him is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth: He gives life and brings death, and He has power over all things. He is the First and the Last,the Manifest and the Hidden, and He has knowledge of all things." (Surah 57:2-3)

The Qur'an mentions the Kingdom constantly. As the above ayat is quite certain with, the statement attributed to Jesus that "the kingdom of God is within you" is very true according to the Qur'an. It is a process which all of existence, past present future is all involved in, knowingly and unknowingly. 

Edited by al-Muttaqin

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20 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

The passages you asked us to read explain that keeping God’s commands and laws is vital.  There is no suggestion anywhere in the teaching of Jesus (or Paul) that God no longer wants his people to live a holy and upright life.  In fact, the standards are set high – 100%.  Can I do that?  Can you do that?  No we can’t.

Well respectfully, I am very sorry to hear that you think that little and low of God, but I can't change your heart. I don't think of God as the trickster Christians paint of YHWH in the Tanakh/Torah. God doesn't give us more than we can handle and we are factually accountable for our actions (which is enough of a reality that we have secular court rooms). This means that God is 'concerned' (not a word I'd apply to God but nonetheless) for justice, meaning that mercy and compassion get their fair hearing. 

Edited by al-Muttaqin

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1 hour ago, tdawg626 said:

Look at Ephesians 2:8-10. It’s by grace through faith that we are saved, not by works. However, this does not mean that the law is not good.

That means technically and rationally their is no point of adhering to the law at all. You can’t deny that at all. Im right ur wrong.

jesus says otherwise Mathew 517,19-20

1 hour ago, tdawg626 said:

We just could not fulfill the law;

Mathew 6 and 7 that’s how you fulfil the Law. Again just like your buddy running away from God’s law saying a bunch of rubbish that has no basis to justify a irrational and illogical Pauline doctrine. 

James 2:14-19

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Mathew 7:24-27

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and DOES NOT PUT THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

again, Mathew 5:19-20

19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly WILL BE CALLED LEAST IN THE KINDOM OF HEAVEN, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, YOU WILL CERTAINTY NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

1 hour ago, tdawg626 said:

As for Ezekiel 18, here is a good description of what is going on here (look at link below)

Again read my reply to Dave. Stop taking it out of context. 

 

1 hour ago, tdawg626 said:

man’s good deeds won’t save him if he turns away

If he turns away from God and continues to commit the same sin deliberately.

 

1 hour ago, tdawg626 said:

Isaiah 53,

If Already refuted that. It’s about prophet Jeremiah and rubbish Christian bible conceals words to supper their unjust doctrine. Even Non biased trinitarians admit and have written its about prophet Jeremiah. 

 

1 hour ago, tdawg626 said:

There were others in the O.T. who followed laws but their hearts were wicked even though they made the sacrifices

You can’t be wicked while adhering to the Law jesus has shown that, ur just being arrogant trying so many desperate attempts at this point.

1 hour ago, tdawg626 said:

The O.T. does not hide the flaws of any of the prophets or anyone. It’s raw and real. You could do bad things and have a sacrifice done but God would hate it because it wasn’t real or out of love for God

How many times have I told you and showed it is PART OF YOUR THEOLOGY to believe the prophets are infallible?? How stubborn can you be didn’t I tell you the Gospel is a book of principles and theology and i showed infallibility being part of your theology.

sacrifices, don’t bring love into this you have Zero basis for you claims.

sacrifices were made for unintentional sins back then, it is abrogated since God desires mercy. and listening to the Law grants you forgiveness because you are no longer ignorant.

Read Leviticus 4

I Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

 

Psalms 14 is about those I didn’t believe their is a God it has nothing with what your saying. 

Pslams 50 again doesn’t prove of what your saying rather it encourages to hold on to the Law and confess their unintentional sins at that time it was still not abrogated.

16But to the wicked man God said, "For what reason do you recount My statutes, and bring up My covenant on Your mouth?

17For you hated discipline and threw My words behind you.

18If you saw a thief, you agreed [to be] with him, and with adulterers is your portion.

19You let loose your mouth for evil, and you accustomed your tongue to deceit.

20You sit and talk against your brother; you slander your mother's son.

21You did these and I remained silent; you thought that I would be like you. I will contend with you and set up before your eyes.

22Understand this now, you who forget God, lest I tear [you] to pieces, and there will be no one to save [you].

23One who slaughters a confession sacrifice honors Me, and [I will] prepare the way; I will show him the salvation of God."

 

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11 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

That means technically and rationally their is no point of adhering to the law at all. You can’t deny that at all. Im right ur wrong.

jesus says otherwise Mathew 517,19-20

THREE1THREE, 

Saying that you're right and I'm wrong doesn't make you any more right.  It's just a statement.  This does not mean at all that the law is bad or that we throw it out and completely dismiss it.  It does change how we look at it though.  Jesus came to fulfill, meaning he completed everything the law required.  We both know Jesus nor the disciples ever said the law was bad, only that it does not save a person who is under sin.  And all of us are.  We are saved by putting our faith and trust in Christ based on his grace (unmerited favor) and this cannot be achieved by works (not allowing anyone to boast about how good they are).  In Ephesians 2:10 we see that Christ prepares good works for us to do in advance for those who put their faith in him.  The world's religions all claim that good works and deeds need to be done in some way or fashion to be right before some god or force.  Christ is the only one who tells the truth and portrays us as we really are: loved, but under sin.  He pays the price for us so we do not have to and offers us a gift.  You may not like gifts, but I sure do and I have accepted this perfect gift with gladness and joy!  No writer of the N.T. ever told people to accept Jesus and quit doing good deeds or being righteous or holy.  The point is that you cannot achieve this on your own but if you want to follow God you must obey him by putting your faith in Jesus.  Then and only then can one begin fulfilling the greatest law to love 
God and love others which, when practiced as a true believer, automatically fulfills the entire law.  Love fulfills the law.  We must receive love himself to be saved from sin and live like he lived.  

11 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

Mathew 6 and 7 that’s how you fulfil the Law. Again just like your buddy running away from God’s law saying a bunch of rubbish that has no basis to justify a irrational and illogical Pauline doctrine. 

James 2:14-19

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

Mathew 7:24-27

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and DOES NOT PUT THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

again, Mathew 5:19-20

19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly WILL BE CALLED LEAST IN THE KINDOM OF HEAVEN, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, YOU WILL CERTAINTY NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

When you cherry pick verses, take passages out of context, and discard the whole of scripture and the underlying narrative, yes it's easy to come up with your conclusions.  Again, that's not the way the Bible works.  

James is demonstrating how faith without works is dead.  He's speaking to so called "Christians" who are not behaving well towards others at all and saying, "we're Christians!" He's calling them out and showing them that faith produces works.  Just like in the parable of the seeds we see that one of the seeds produces fruit and the others fade away, the same is true with a true believer.  They will produce fruit and persevere till the end.  It's very possible James is talking to some who are not even believers because of what they are practicing.  You cannot be murdering and doing other bad things continually and claim to be a Christian.  It just doesn't add up.  It doesn't take away, however, that faith is a gift from God and not achieved by works.  

In the gospels Jesus is dealing with the Jewish people, showing them what the true Kingdom of God looked like.  All of these people believed in God, but now Jesus shows up and is telling people to follow him and believe in him.  He's showing them what the law really means and correcting a lot of their incorrect beliefs about him, many of which developed over hundreds of years of God's silence between the N.T. and O.T.  He's dealing with Jewish issues, sins, beliefs, etc. When he tells them to practice good things he is not giving a prescription for automatic salvation but rather showing them the right way and how to live a righteous life.  He was calling people to believe in him and follow God's commands, but not in a way that simply produced compliance to a law.  How many times does he call out the "righteous" pharisees for their ignorance and sin, showing people how unrighteous they really were.  Look at the parables in Luke 15 of things that were lost.  God goes out to look for these things or people, not requiring them to do good works to be found and celebrated.  Look at the parable of the pharisee and tax collector in Luke 18:9-14.  It's not the one who follows the law well that is declared justified.  It is the tax collector who cried out to God in repentance.  Look at Luke 17:10.  Even after all they've done they can still say, "We are worthless servants; we've only done our duty."  In Matthew 7 Jesus tells people to ask, seek and knock and the door will be opened to them. Later in 21-23 we see that not everyone who claims to do good works in his name actually knows him.  In chapter 8 we see a centurion exhibiting faith which Jesus had not seen in all of Israel.  In Matthew 9 Jesus says, "it is not the those who are well who need a doctor but those who are sick.  I desire mercy and not sacrifice.  For I didn't come to call the righteous but sinners." 

Jesus came and went to those who were considered the worst of society and those who were in blatant sin and perversity and told them they were closer to the kingdom then the pharisees and others who rejected Jesus.  Jesus came to seek the lost.  He forgives peoples' sins over and over because of their faith and belief, not because they did some kind of work.  The thief on the cross is justified because of his belief.  It's an error to look at what Jesus says in the sermon on the mount and say that it's salvation or righteousness by good works.  Good works are good, but according to Jesus they do not save.  The rich young ruler was keeping all the commands.  But Jesus, knowing his heart, tells him to sell everything (not one of the commandments by the way) and to follow him.  He tells people to pick up their crosses, deny themselves and follow him.  

It's important to stay in context, know the story, and not pick and choose verses that seem to fit an untrue interpretation of scripture.  

11 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

If Already refuted that. It’s about prophet Jeremiah and rubbish Christian bible conceals words to supper their unjust doctrine. Even Non biased trinitarians admit and have written its about prophet Jeremiah. 

Please name these people

 

11 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

You can’t be wicked while adhering to the Law jesus has shown that, ur just being arrogant trying so many desperate attempts at this point.

There were absolutely people in the O.T. who followed some laws even though they were wicked or not close to God.  They knew what the law said and completed some to try and be okay with God by simply doing them.  This doesn't work because it's not what God is looking for. All man made religions do the same thing.  They come up with laws and rules to impress their god and hopefully do this enough to get to heaven.  When they feel they've been bad, they go to their god and manipulate him into accepting them again.  Not so in my faith.  God does all the work, provides the way, the sacrifice, the forgiveness, the gift.  

 

11 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

How many times have I told you and showed it is PART OF YOUR THEOLOGY to believe the prophets are infallible?? How stubborn can you be didn’t I tell you the Gospel is a book of principles and theology and i showed infallibility being part of your theology.

You can't read the Old Testament and miss the point that God desired a relationship with his people.  The law and rules and given because people are stubborn, disobedient and bad.  It was a way to help them follow God but not in a dry and rigid manner.  God desires a relationship with his people.  He doesn't care about them making sacrifices in vain when they are acting wicked.  He desired mercy, not sacrifice, yes.  But it was him who set up the sacrificial system, rules and laws in the first place and that had a purpose for a time.  It was both symbolic and practical.  Many of the laws were only for the Jews at a specific time.  Others, the moral laws, have been reiterated in the N.T. by Jesus. These people already believed that God was real because they were Jewish.  Those that disregarded the law or disobeyed the prophets demonstrated that they did not know God.  Those who did showed that they did love God and that what he said was important to them.  There were others who simply tried to do laws here and there to falsely earn God's favor and then continue in their sin. The prophets are fallible because it's not only evident by just being human and living in this world, but the Bible shows them as fallible. There is no prophet in the bible that is infallible.  Even if their sin is not openly spoken about, other verses and passages demonstrate how no one is good. So this is incorrect.  Jesus comes to die because mankind is sinful.  He died for the world because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." I gave you verses that talked about how none are good in the O.T.  Again, look at Abraham.  He was justified (made right with God) simply because God spoke and he believed him.  His actions were the outward confirmation of an inward reality.  

I'm not sure you answered this (I may have missed your reply because of many replies) but are you Muslim?

Anyway, have a great day.  Jesus loves you!

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24 minutes ago, tdawg626 said:

Jesus came to fulfill, meaning he completed everything the law required. 

No read John 17:3-4 fulfilling is affirming.

jessus came not to abolish the law. This in 5:19-20 he makes it clear to be saved you must adhere to it. Even in his final moments John 15:10

24 minutes ago, tdawg626 said:

He doesn't care about them making sacrifices in vain when they are acting wicked.  He desired mercy, not sacrifice, yes.  But it was him who set up the sacrificial system, rules and laws in the first place and that had a purpose for a time. 

Rubbish argument.

Leviticus 4:

1And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,

2Speak to the children of Israel, saying: If a person sins unintentionally [by committing one] of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, and he commits [part] of one of them

3If the anointed kohen sins, bringing guilt to the people, then he shall bring for his sin which he has committed, an unblemished young bull as a sin offering to the Lord.

4And he shall bring the bull to the entrance of the Tent of Meeting before the Lord, and he shall lean his hand [forcefully] upon the bull's head and slaughter the bull before the Lord.

5And the anointed kohen shall take from the bull's blood and bring it into the Tent of Meeting.

6And the kohen shall dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle some of the blood seven times before the Lord, before the dividing curtain of the Sanctuary.

7And the kohen shall place some of the blood on the horns of the incense altar which is in the Tent of Meeting, before the Lord, and he shall pour all the blood of the bull onto the base of the altar [used] for burnt offerings, which is at the entrance of the Tent of Meeting.

8And all the fat of the sin offering bull he shall separate from it: the fat covering the innards, and all the fat that is on the innards,

9and the two kidneys [along] with the fat that is on them, which is on the flanks; and the diaphragm with the liver, along with the kidneys, he shall remove it,

10just as was separated from the bull [sacrificed as] a peace offering, the kohen shall then cause them to [go up in] smoke on the altar [used] for burnt offerings.

11[He shall then take] the bull's skin and all of its flesh, along with its head and along with its legs, its innards and its waste matter.

12He shall take out the entire bull to a clean place outside the camp, [namely,] to the ash depository, and he shall burn it in fire on wood. Thus, it shall be burnt in the ash depository.

13And if the entire community of Israel errs because a matter was hidden from the eyes of the congregation, and they commit one of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, incurring guilt;

14When the sin which they had committed becomes known, the congregation shall bring a young bull as a sin offering. They shall bring it before the Tent of Meeting.

15The elders of the community shall lean their hands [forcefully] upon the bull's head, before the Lord, and one shall slaughter the bull before the Lord.

16The anointed kohen shall bring some of the bull's blood into the Tent of Meeting,

17and the kohen shall dip his finger from the blood, and sprinkle [it] seven times before the Lord, before the dividing curtain.

18And he shall then place some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is before the Lord in the Tent of Meeting. And then he shall pour all the blood onto the base of the altar [used] for burnt offerings, which is at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.

19And he shall separate all its fat from it and cause it to [go up in] smoke on the altar.

20He shall do to the bull just as he did to the bull of the sin offering thus he shall do to it. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for them [the community], and they will be forgiven.

21And he shall take the bull outside the camp and burn it, just as he burned the first bull. It is a sin offering for the congregation.

22If a leader [of Israel] sins and unintentionally commits one of all the commandments of the Lord, which may not be committed, incurring guilt;

23if his sin that he has committed is made known to him, then he shall bring his offering: an unblemished male goat.

24And he shall lean his hand [forcefully] upon the goat's head and slaughter it in the place where he slaughters burnt offerings, before the Lord. It is a sin offering.

25And the kohen shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and place [it] on the horns of the altar [used] for burnt offerings. And then he shall pour its blood onto the base of the altar [used] for burnt offerings.

26And he shall cause all its fat to [go up in] smoke on the altar, just like the fat of the peace offering. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for his sin, and he will be forgiven.

27If one person of the people of the land commits a sin unintentionally, by his committing one of the commandments of the Lord which may not be committed, incurring guilt;

28if his sin that he committed is made known to him, he shall bring his sacrifice: an unblemished female goat, for his sin that he committed.

29And he shall lean his hand [forcefully] on the head of the sin offering, and he shall slaughter the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

30And the kohen shall take some of its blood with his finger, and place [it] on the horns of the altar [used] for burnt offerings. And then he shall pour all of its [remaining] blood at the base of the altar.

31And he shall remove all of its fat, just as the fat was removed from the peace offering. The kohen shall then cause it to [go up in] smoke on the altar, as a pleasing fragrance to the Lord. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for him, and he will be forgiven.

32If he brings a sheep for his sin offering, he shall bring an unblemished female.

33He shall lean his hand [forcefully] upon the head of the sin offering and slaughter it as a sin offering in the place where he slaughters the burnt offering.

34And the kohen shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and place [it] on the horns of the altar [used] for burnt offerings. And then he shall pour all of its blood onto the base of the altar.

35And he shall remove all its fat, just as the sheep's fat is removed from the peace offering. The kohen shall then cause them to [go up in] smoke on the altar, upon the fires for the Lord. Thus the kohen shall make atonement for him, for his sin which he committed, and he will be forgiven.

 

I Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

Obeying the Law and listening to it was an atonement for his unintentional sin since he was ignorant and now no longer ignorant. This was God’s mercy. Hosea 6:6 is pretty clear. 

24 minutes ago, tdawg626 said:

Look at the parable of the pharisee and tax collector in Luke 18:9-14.  It's not the one who follows the law well that is declared justified.  It is the tax collector who cried out to God in repentance.

Taking it out of context. You know very well What’s is the context. Ur no different to Satan that Jesus had to face in the desert.

 

24 minutes ago, tdawg626 said:

There were absolutely people in the O.T. who followed some laws even though they were wicked or not close to God. 

SOME.  Do me a favour and read “Saul(Paul) refuted” it exposed all Your Baseless claims. 

24 minutes ago, tdawg626 said:

God desires a relationship with his people. 

John 15:10, Mathew 5:17-20 , Mathew 6, Mathew 7.

james 2:8-11, james 2:14-19. 

24 minutes ago, tdawg626 said:

The prophets are fallible because it's not only evident by just being human

Jesus is a human being and is infallible. What is meant by infallibility is they can sin but they wouldn’t sin because of their God consciousness and the Lord that watches them. Read “trinitarian fantasies” thread. It addresses infallibility. 

Edited by THREE1THREE

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On 7/2/2020 at 5:42 AM, al-Muttaqin said:

The kingdom of God is literally everything in existence, literally. 

"Do you not know that Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah you have no guardian or helper?" (Surah 2:107)

The acknowledgement is inward, as Surah Hadid even says: 

"To Him is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth: He gives life and brings death, and He has power over all things. He is the First and the Last,the Manifest and the Hidden, and He has knowledge of all things." (Surah 57:2-3)

The Qur'an mentions the Kingdom constantly. As the above ayat is quite certain with, the statement attributed to Jesus that "the kingdom of God is within you" is very true according to the Qur'an. It is a process which all of existence, past present future is all involved in, knowingly and unknowingly. 

This is interesting thank you.  Yes God rules over the whole universe (heavens and earth) without that rule everything would cease to exist.  He is ultimatly the one who controls our life and our death.  Is God's rule just mataining things or is there more?  How do we as people respond to God's rule?  There must be something about obediance - what is the point of a king if we don't obey?  As a King he has set a rule of justice for communities but also a standard for holy living.

On 7/2/2020 at 5:44 AM, al-Muttaqin said:

God doesn't give us more than we can handle

See this indication about the standards God expects for us  Colossians 3:12-14

12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.

Do you think this is more than you or I can handle?  I often ask how my life matches up to this standard.

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On 7/2/2020 at 8:02 PM, THREE1THREE said:
On 7/2/2020 at 7:39 PM, tdawg626 said:

God desires a relationship with his people. 

John 15:10, Mathew 5:17-20 , Mathew 6, Mathew 7.

james 2:8-11, james 2:14-19. 

Are you suggesting that God commands us to obey but doesn't want a relationship with us?

I don't think there is anyone who doesn't see God's laws and standards as good and right.  I'm sure you like me seek to live up to them.  God is King he reigns and looks for us to obey.  But what happens when we don't live up to his standards - you have quoted some very clear passages where Jesus and his followers explain what God expects.

I would support @tdawg626 God also wants to know us and recieve us into a relationship.  He is not a distant King but a King who came to live amongst us and still wanst to live within us helping us through his powerfull Holy Spirit to live up to his standards.

You left out two verse when you quoted James chapter 2

12 Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13 because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

God the King is a merciful and forgiving King who wants us to live under his mercy.

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