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Guest Quran and Itrah

Does Imam Ali give life and take death, with the permission of Allah?

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Guest Quran and Itrah

I just wanted to survey the opinions of those on Shia Chat.

Does anyone believe Imam Ali, with the permission of Allah, gives life, splits the seed, grows vegetation, forms us in our wombs, and by the permission of Allah, takes lives.

Would such a person be considered a Mushrik, and one who has committed Shirk?

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Your question is a combination of Sahih aqeedah, and ghuluw.

On 5/29/2020 at 5:47 AM, Guest Quran and Itrah said:

splits the seed, grows vegetation

As for these, they have a taweel and i heard it from Allama Imtiaz Abbas Kazmi he quoted it from Tafseer Noor us Saqalain in which imam Muhammad Baqir (عليه السلام) explained meaning of such sentences. In short, when he said: He grow trees, it means Shajar-e-Imamah not the plants etc. And it was one of the best bayan i ever heard.

On 5/29/2020 at 5:47 AM, Guest Quran and Itrah said:

forms us in our wombs

As for this, it comes under Ilm-Ul-Ghaib. Here i would quote a sermon from nahaj-ul-balgha 128:

One of his companions said to him: O Amir al-mu'minin, you have been given knowledge of hidden things. Whereupon Amir al-mu'minin laughed and said to the man who belonged to the tribe of Banu Kalb:

 

O brother of Kalb! This is not knowledge of hidden things (‘ilmu'l-ghayb), 3 these matters have been acquired from him (namely in Prophet) who knew them. As regard knowledge of hidden things, that means knowledge of the Day of Judgement, and the things covered by Allah in the verse:

Verily, Allah is He with Whom is the knowledge of the Hour; He sends down the rain, and He knows what is in the wombs. No soul knows what it will earn tomorrow, and no soul knows in what land it will die..” (Qur'an, 31:34)

Therefore, Allah alone knows what is there in the wombs, whether male or female, ugly or handsome, generous or miserly, mischievous or pious, and who will be the fuel for Hell and who will be in the company of the Prophets in Paradise. This is the knowledge of the hidden things which is not known to anyone save Allah. All else is that whose knowledge Allah passed on to His Prophet and he passed it on to me, and prayed for me that my bosom may retain it and my ribs may hold it.

 

Mola Ali (عليه السلام) has denied it. These statements come from a well known Sermon attributed to Ali (عليه السلام) named Khutba Tul bayan. This Khutba is a mixture of sahih riwayahs and fabrications. 

BY Chain this Sermon isn't weak. its fabricated.

Edited by Mahdavist
Statements that weren't presented with proof were removed

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@Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi just relying on a single narration  doesn't make sense at all. Also relying on the Holy Qur'an without the tafseer makes no sense Either. or else regarding tashhaud we Have a Hadeeth,


just praise Allah azwj in tashhaud and it will be sufficient.

No doubt the sermon you quoted is authentic but there are alot of mistakes in the wordings the very important if it is its not Hidden thing, its Knowledge of the unseen. and you didn't even quote the complete sermon. Mawla (عليه السلام) was telling them regarding the things which will take place in future. then that companion said that Ya Mawla (عليه السلام) you've been given the knowledge of the unseen then the sermon continues

 

also according to the tafseer Ilm ul ghaib doesn't mean Hiddin things lol

 

Ibn Babuwayh said, ‘My father narrated to me, from Sa’ad Bin Abdullah, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Isa, from Al Hassan Bin Ali Bin Fazaal, from Sa’albat Bin Maymoun, from one of our companions, (It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) regarding the Words of Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic [13:9] The Knower of the unseen and the seen, so he (عليه السلام) said:

‘The unseen – what has not happened yet; and the seen – what has already happened’.

 

 

Now daleel comes from my side

the very first thing is those are the verses of the Holy Qur'an which you quoted right? 

Now in the same book Allah azwj even says

Theres everything in the Holy Qur'an (including  ilm ul ghaib)


And Masoomeen (عليه السلام) Have the knowledge of a thousand books. Which includes the Holy Qur'an

And similarly just relying on a single verse isn't sufficient at all 


How did you even ignore surah jinn and its tafseer?


Say: ‘I don’t know if it is near, what you are being Threatened (with), or 
whether my Lord has Made a term for it [72:25]


(He is) Knower of the unseen, and He does not Reveal His hidden matters upon anyone [72:26]


Except one He Chooses from a Rasool, for He would Make a guard to travel in front of him and from behind him [72:27]


For Him to Know that they have delivered the Messages of their Lord, and He Encompasses whatever is with them, and He Counts the number of all things [72:28]

Ali Bin Ibrahim said, ‘Muhammad Bin Hamaam narrated to us from Ja’far Bin Muhammad Bin Malik, 
from Ja’far Bin Abdullah, from Muhammad Bin Umar, from Abad Bin Saheyb, who has said:


‘Ja’far Bin Muhammad (عليه السلام), from his father (عليه السلام):


 ‘They (Quraysh) said, ‘So when will that take place?’ Allah-azwj Said to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم): 


Say: ‘I don’t know if it is near, what you are being Threatened (with), or whether my Lord has Made a term for it [72:25] (He is) Knower of the unseen, and He does not Reveal His hidden matters upon anyone [72:26] Except one He Chooses from a Rasool, for He would Make a guard to travel in front of him and from behind him [72:27] Meaning Ali (عليه السلام), the chosen one from the Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and he (عليه السلام) is from him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

Allah-azwj Said: 

for surely He makes a guard to march before him and after him. 


He (عليه السلام) said: ‘In his heart is the Knowledge, and one behind him (عليه السلام) is the guard who knows his Knowledge, and he distributes theKnowledge with a distribution, and Allah-azwj Taught him (عليه السلام) by inspiration.


And the guard, is the teacher from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), For Him to Know [72:28], the Prophet, that they have delivered the Messages of their Lord, and He – Ali (عليه السلام), Encompasses whatever is with the Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from the Knowledge, and He Counts the number of all things [72:28] – whatever has happened since the day Allah-azwj Created Adam (عليه السلام) up to the Establishment of the Hour – from either a Fitna, or an earthquake, or a submergence, or eruption, or a community destroyed in the past or would be destroyed in the future, and how may tyrannical or just imams there would be. He (عليه السلام) recognises him by his name and his lineage.


And whether one would be dying a (natural) death, or killed by a killing, and how many Imams (عليه السلام) would be abandoned, not being harmed by the abandonment of the 
one who abandons him, and how many Imam (عليه السلام) would be helped, not benefitting by the help of the one who helps him (عليه السلام) ’’.

Tafseer al Ayyashi vol.2 p.389

And also we Have narretions that the companions used to ask the Imam (عليه السلام), Ya Mawla (عليه السلام) why did you leave so and so during a war 


Imam (عليه السلام) used to reply 

There's a shia of mine in His lineage.

 

also in Hadeeth e Tariq Mawla mentios that Imam Has the keys to unseen not once, not twice but 5 times

 

Edited by Mahdavist
Statements that weren't presented with proof were removed

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On 5/29/2020 at 8:47 AM, Guest Quran and Itrah said:

Does anyone believe Imam Ali, with the permission of Allah, gives life, splits the seed, grows vegetation, forms us in our wombs, and by the permission of Allah, takes lives

I think all of us believe that Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) gave the life to the dead, cured the blinds etc by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)
Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) did the same with the birds as mentioned in Quran. 
Asif bin Barqiyah brought the thrown within the blink of an eye without even asking the permission from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

In fact everything mentioned above is possible with the clause "by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)" 

Edited by Logic1234

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Now lets come to the part of creating 

For those who aren't being able to consume that Aimmah (عليه السلام) create and distribute rizq,

Prophet eesa (عليه السلام) created a bird and blew the spirit by just Having 2 letters from the ism e Aazam

Aimmah Have 72 out of 73 


Check this out


When Allah will Say: ‘O Isa son of Maryam! Remember My Favour upon you and upon your mother, when I Strengthened you with the Holy Spirit. You spoke to the people in the cradle and when of old age, and when I Taught you the Book and the Wisdom, and the Torah and the Evangel; and when you created from the clay like the form of the bird with My Permission, and you blew into it, so it became a bird by My Permission; and you cured the blind and the leper by My Permission; and when you extracted the dead by My Permission, and when I Refrained the Children of Israel from you when you came to them with the clear proofs, so those who committed Kufr from them said, ‘Surely this is nothing but clear sorcery!’ [5:110]

 

Yes Mawla Ali (عليه السلام) did create everything being created after Him and i will prove it from nahj al balagha.

Also if Mawla says i created this and that, so that doesn't means Allah azwj didn't create it 

We should also not forget that Allah azwj doesn't do these things because He azwj is too exalted and magnificent to do it 

And no one can deny Mawla Ali creats and distribute's rizq with the permission of Allah azwj.

Now, didn't Allah azwj grant all His permissions to Masoomeen (عليه السلام) on shab e Hijrat? 

For those who say but Allah azwj says He created the earth and skies and all,

Allah azwj even says He is the creator of all things 

And in the verse quoted above, Allah azwj is also Holding on one view


Say: ‘Who is the Lord of the skies and the Earth?’ Say: ‘Allah’. Say: ‘So (why) 
are you taking guardians from besides Him who neither control for themselves any benefit nor harm?’ Say: ‘Are they equal, the blind and the seeing one? Or is it equal, the darkness and the light? Or are they making associates to be for Allah who created like He Created, so the creation was confusing upon them?’ Say: ‘Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Supreme’ [13:16]

 

22 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

As for these, they have a taweel and i heard it from Allama Imtiaz Abbas Kazmi he quoted it from Tafseer Noor us Saqalain in which imam Muhammad Baqir (عليه السلام) explained meaning of such sentences. In short, when he said: He grow trees, it means Shajar-e-Imamah not the plants etc. And it was one of the best bayan i ever heard.

these are just the forged postulates from your "Aalim" even i saw that video. no Arabic text shown, no sanad, nor the names of the raavi nothing. also go and ask Him why did He reject the khutbatul byan at first and called it fabricated?

if the khutbah was a fabrication according to Him in His previous videos, where did the taawil and stuff came from. lol He thinks people will not use their Heads? lol

 

you think First Imam Ali (عليه السلام) wanted peiple to Have a different and manifest aqeedah, then as soon as Imam baqir (عليه السلام) said it the next generation should Have a different aqeedah? lol bro

 

as i said earlier i will prove it from nahj al balagha, i am attaching a pic in which Mawla (عليه السلام) says Allah azwj created us and we created rest of the creation

 

and in Hadeeth e tariq Mawla (عليه السلام) clearly says the Imam (عليه السلام) manages all the affair of the creation.

 

i will post an extract from Hadeeth e tariq.

The Imamate is a station that none can reach except those whom Allah-azwj has chosen and has given them precedence (over others), investing them with the authority to rules and to judge. Thus wilayah is nothing other than safeguarding people from danger and disaster and the management of their all affairs, (even down to) demarcating the days and months.

 

jawad naqvi Himself says Ali (عليه السلام) is a the mazhar (manifestation) of Allah azwj in His book 

 

please see this video

this guy Has given reference for both nahj al balagha and book of jawad naqvi.

 

also i will say this again

 

we should not forget thr fact that Allah azwj doesn't do these things because He is too elevated and magnificent to do it

Screenshot_2020-06-02-15-21-40-10.jpg

 

Edited by randomly curious

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On 6/2/2020 at 11:57 AM, Logic1234 said:

I think all of us believe that Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) gave the life to the dead, cured the blinds etc by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)
Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) did the same with the birds as mentioned in Quran. 
Asif bin Barqiyah brought the thrown within the blink of an eye without even asking the permission from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

In fact everything mentioned above is possible with the clause "by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)" 

completed agreed brother.

la'an of the person who thinks Mawla (عليه السلام) does anything without taking it from Allah azwj

every sermon Mawla (عليه السلام) said i do this and that, Mawla (عليه السلام) also said by the blessings/permissions of Allah azwj

 

Edited by Mahdavist
Statements that weren't presented with proof were removed

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13 hours ago, randomly curious said:

also according to the tafseer Ilm ul ghaib doesn't mean Hiddin things lol

Agreed. If you read my post completely,  you would have known that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) refered to specific things as unseen and not the things that we think are unseen.

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13 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam Aimmah (عليه السلام) don't  create anything but rizq comes down from sky for being Imam among us but Allah by angles distribute rizq but angles under surveillance  of Imam Zaman (عليه السلام) don't  mix creating flying bird by prophet Isa (عليه السلام) as creation everything anyway Imam can repeat all of mircles of previous  prophets (عليه السلام)

Brother, Isa (عليه السلام) who has "some from" the knowledge of book did all that, yet people who were given complete knowledge of book can't create? 

I think this view makes many ayahs and hadiths contradict. 

And then in 4:59, Allah said obey those who have been given authority: 

Thus 12 imams have already been given the authority by Allah Almighty, thus its not suprising if they created something.

But, now attributing everything to Aima (عليه السلام), that came in unique Sermons like Khutba tul Bayan is incorrect since its fabricated and a fabrication isn't a hadith.

Accept whatever they say, established by authentic / weak hadith that is inline with Quran but no way, you cant quote a fabrication.

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14 hours ago, randomly curious said:

Now lets come to the part of creating 

For those who aren't being able to consume that Aimmah (عليه السلام) create and distribute rizq,

Prophet eesa (عليه السلام) created a bird and blew the spirit by just Having 2 letters from the ism e Aazam

Aimmah Have 72 out of 73 


Check this out


When Allah will Say: ‘O Isa son of Maryam! Remember My Favour upon you and upon your mother, when I Strengthened you with the Holy Spirit. You spoke to the people in the cradle and when of old age, and when I Taught you the Book and the Wisdom, and the Torah and the Evangel; and when you created from the clay like the form of the bird with My Permission, and you blew into it, so it became a bird by My Permission; and you cured the blind and the leper by My Permission; and when you extracted the dead by My Permission, and when I Refrained the Children of Israel from you when you came to them with the clear proofs, so those who committed Kufr from them said, ‘Surely this is nothing but clear sorcery!’ [5:110]

 

Yes Mawla Ali (عليه السلام) did create everything being created after Him and i will prove it from nahj al balagha.

Also if Mawla says i created this and that, so that doesn't means Allah azwj didn't create it 

We should also not forget that Allah azwj doesn't do these things because He azwj is too exalted and magnificent to do it 

And no one can deny Mawla Ali creats and distribute's rizq with the permission of Allah azwj.

Now, didn't Allah azwj grant all His permissions to Masoomeen (عليه السلام) on shab e Hijrat? 

For those who say but Allah azwj says He created the earth and skies and all,

Allah azwj even says He is the creator of all things 

And in the verse quoted above, Allah azwj is also Holding on one view


Say: ‘Who is the Lord of the skies and the Earth?’ Say: ‘Allah’. Say: ‘So (why) 
are you taking guardians from besides Him who neither control for themselves any benefit nor harm?’ Say: ‘Are they equal, the blind and the seeing one? Or is it equal, the darkness and the light? Or are they making associates to be for Allah who created like He Created, so the creation was confusing upon them?’ Say: ‘Allah is the Creator of all things, and He is the One, the Supreme’ [13:16]

 

these are just the forged postulates from your "Aalim" even i saw that video. no Arabic text shown, no sanad, nor the names of the raavi nothing. also go and ask Him why did He reject the khutbatul byan at first and called it fabricated?

if the khutbah was a fabrication according to Him in His previous videos, where did the taawil and stuff came from. lol He thinks people will not use their Heads? lol

 

you think First Imam Ali (عليه السلام) wanted peiple to Have a different and manifest aqeedah, then as soon as Imam baqir (عليه السلام) said it the next generation should Have a different aqeedah? lol bro

 

as i said earlier i will prove it from nahj al balagha, i am attaching a pic in which Mawla (عليه السلام) says Allah azwj created us and we created rest of the creation

 

and in Hadeeth e tariq Mawla (عليه السلام) clearly says the Imam (عليه السلام) manages all the affair of the creation.

 

i will post an extract from Hadeeth e tariq.

The Imamate is a station that none can reach except those whom Allah-azwj has chosen and has given them precedence (over others), investing them with the authority to rules and to judge. Thus wilayah is nothing other than safeguarding people from danger and disaster and the management of their all affairs, (even down to) demarcating the days and months.

 

jawad naqvi Himself says Ali (عليه السلام) is a the mazhar (manifestation) of Allah azwj in His book 

 

please see this video

this guy Has given reference for both nahj al balagha and book of jawad naqvi.

 

also i will say this again

 

we should not forget thr fact that Allah azwj doesn't do these things because He is too elevated and magnificent to do it

Screenshot_2020-06-02-15-21-40-10.jpg

 

I don't know arabic, but lets take this literally, that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) created all humans. (Continued at point#2)
(Please give reference for it i need to check) 
1. Then at least you can't use it to prove that he grew plants etc. 

You said that Taweel was void while you knew it was attributed to Imam Baqir (عليه السلام), so be careful with your words.
Imam Baqir interpreted it, just like he had recived it from Imams. Its regarding that particular sentence and not whole khutba tul bayan.

I will try to check for its sanad soon. But at least its better than believing in something by interpreting it according to you own will, just like sunnis
say obedience to Ulil-Amr is conditional then i think perhaps they make more sense? No, because they don't have right to do taweel.

Also, Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) didn't bring forward a new aqeedah at all, Imam is inheritor of previous imam and he says nothing, but what has already been revealed to previous imams.

2. Here, lets have a hadith

1. Sheikh Sadooq said: Narrated to us
2. Ali Bin Ahmad Bin Muhammad Bin Imran Al-Daqqaq said: Narrated to us
3. Muhammad Bin Abu Abdullah Al Kufi said: Narrated to us
4. Muhammad Bin Ismail Al-Barmaki said: Narrated to us
5. Hussein Bin Hassan said: Narrated to us
6. Bakar (From)
7. Abu Abdullah Al-Barqi (From)
8. Abdullah Bin Bahr (From)
9. Abi Ayub Al-Khazaar (From)
10. Muhammad Bin Muslim said: 

I asked Abu Jafar (Muhammad Baqir) (عليه السلام) regarding the words of Allah Almighty:

قَالَ يٰۤاِبۡلِيۡسُ مَا مَنَعَكَ اَنۡ تَسۡجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقۡتُ بِيَدَىَّ‌ؕ اَسۡتَكۡبَرۡتَ اَمۡ كُنۡتَ مِنَ الۡعَالِيۡنَ‏
He said: O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands? Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted? ﴾75﴿ 

خدا نے فرمایا کہ اے ابلیس جس شخص کو میں نے اپنے ہاتھوں سے بنایا اس کے آگے سجدہ کرنے سے تجھے کس چیز نے منع کیا۔ کیا تو غرور میں آگیا یا اونچے درجے والوں میں تھا؟

(Surah Sad Ayah 75)

Imam (عليه السلام) said: In Arabic literature, it means Quwah and Ni'mah.
Imam (عليه السلام) said: (Surah Sad Ayah 17)  وَاذۡكُرۡ عَبۡدَنَا دَاوٗدَ ذَا الۡاَيۡدِ‌ۚ 
Urdu: اور ہمارے بندے داؤد کو یاد کرو جو صاحب قوت تھے
English: and remember Our bondman David, lord of might

(Comment: If you were just to take literal meanings everywhere, then it seems illogical that Allah wants to tell you Dawood (عليه السلام) had hands? LOL :hahaha:)

And (Imam (عليه السلام)) said: (Surah Zariyat Ayah 47) وَ السَّمَآءَ بَنَيۡنٰهَا بِاَيۡٮدٍ
Urdu: اور آسمانوں کو ہم ہی نے ہاتھوں سے بنایا
English: We have built the heaven with might

(Comment: Now i understand where ghulat came from. These attributed all this to Ali (عليه السلام) since Allah said he created it with his Hands. But Aima (عليه السلام) never interpreted it like that.)

And (Imam (عليه السلام)) said: (Surah Mujadila Ayah 22) وَاَيَّدَهُمۡ بِرُوۡحٍ مِّنۡهُ
Urdu: 
English: and hath strengthened them with a Spirit from Him

it means, Allah made them Qawi. (Hadith Ends here)

Now, if in Nahaj-ul-Balagha, Imam (عليه السلام) meant he created all, then what about this? 
Such an interpretation contradicts Quran even since Adam (عليه السلام) was made by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by his command and strength and not by Ali (عليه السلام) as Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) mentioned.

I believe we have had a discussion regarding this, and i said, whatever that is established in hadiths, weak and authentic, first gather everything, then adopt a middle way, in between those hadiths else, you will end up rejecting some hadiths of AIma (عليه السلام) while accepting the others.

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@randomly curious I mentioned imams hadith, just to express my views regarding those sentences. If you want to believe in all that, believe just like Imam told you to else don't. Since nothing is proven according to you right? (Hadith of Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) isn't proven and has no chain etc). same goes for khutba tul bayan. 

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

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7 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

@randomly curious I mentioned imams hadith, just to express my views regarding those sentences. If you want to believe in all that, believe just like Imam told you to else don't. Since nothing is proven according to you right? (Hadith of Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) isn't proven and has no chain etc). same goes for khutba tul bayan. 

bhai lets keep khutba tul bayan aside for a while and start Focusing on nahj al balagha.

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5 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

bhai lets keep khutba tul bayan aside for a while and start Focusing on nahj al balagha.

Yes lets focus along with narration of Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) via Sheikh Sadooq (رضي الله عنه)

And i am not familiar with arabic, so i ccan't understand what that means.

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

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5 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Yes lets focus along with narration of Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) via Sheikh Sadooq (رضي الله عنه)

And i am not familiar with arabic, so i ccan't understand what that means.

when something goes against you you as usual can't understand it lol 

 

youre a kind of guy when Imam (عليه السلام) comes and says i create this and that you will go to the Imam (عليه السلام) and say ya imam (عليه السلام) but this is contradictory with the Qur'an.

Edited by randomly curious

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4 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

youre a kind of guy when Imam (عليه السلام) comes and says i create this and that you will go to the Imam (عليه السلام) and say ya imam (عليه السلام) but this contradictory with the Qur'an.

Loool that was funny but trust me. No i won't do that.

I just want a "WEAK" narration that says Imam created Adam (عليه السلام).

But all you have is a "FABRICATION".

 

 

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Salam Alykum,

With the permission of Allah, Prophets, Imams and even us regular humans can raise the dead, cure the sick, and other miracles such as talking to animals. 

We know that with the permission of Allah Prophet Issa cured the sick, raised the dead, and various other miracles, Prophet Musa split the sea with his staff with the permission of Allah, Maryam had a child without ever touching a man by the permission of God, The people of the cave slept for around 309 years with the permission of Allah, Prophet Noah lived for over 100 years with the permission of Allah, Prophet Muhammad went of Miraj with the permission of Allah, so nobody can deny that if Allah wills he can enable man to be able to do extraordinary things. 

I have not come across any Hadiths that suggest Imam Ali ever put life into a womb, or took the soul of a person during death. However, maybe through prayer or dua he asked Allah to? Such as praying for rain for crops, or praying for pure sons? 

Imam Ali's role in this dunya was to preserve Islam, guide mankind, and establish Allahs divine laws. I don't think creating life, or causing death was part of his job description. But, who knows? With the permission of Allah anything is possible . Imam Ali for sure did many miracles if that counts.... 

BUT, this is all with the permission of ALLAH...... 

Ws 

Edited by YoungSkiekh313

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On 6/3/2020 at 3:57 AM, YoungSkiekh313 said:

I have not come across any Hadiths that suggest Imam Ali ever put life into a womb, or took the soul of a person during death.

salaam if you Haven't came across, that doesn't mean it doesn't exists.

 

Amirul Momineen (s.a.) further said:

 

“O Salman and O Jandab! I give life and I give death with the permission of my Rabb, and I tell you what you eat and what is in your 
homes with the permission of my Rabb, and I am knower of 
the secrets hidden in your hearts, and Imams (s.a.a.) from my 
progeny also know, and whatever we wish and intend we do 
it, because we all are one, our first is Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.w.) 
and our last is Mohammad (a.f.s.) as well, and our middle is 
Mohammad (s.a.) as well, and we all are Mohammad (s.a.a.), 
and do not discriminate among us. And whatever we wish, 
Allah wishes the same, and whatever we dislike Allah dislikes. 
Destruction is for him, complete destruction who denies our 
status and attributes which our Rabb Allah has bestowed us. 
No doubt whatever Allah has bestowed us, who denies
anything from those, he denied the Authority and Mashiyat of 
Allah Azza wa Jalla which we possess.............And in spite of 
all these merits, we eat and drink and we walk in bazaars, and 
we do these things with Amr of our Rabb, and we are
honoured Ibad of Allah who does not surpass His words, and 
we do everything with His Amr, and He made us Pure 
Infallibles, and gave us superiority over His Momin servants.” 


(al Qatra, V 1, P 142)

 

 

Edited by Mahdavist
Statements that weren't presented with proof were removed

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Salam, 

As I mentioned, I am not denying that Imam Ali could have gave life, or taken a soul at death. But the key here is by the will/permission of Allah. Allah does not need permission to do things, he says be, and it is created. If you believe Imam Ali could have gave life without the permission and will of Allah, then you are assigning him to a level that is similar to Allah.... that is a big no no. That is why I am carful with the language I am using here. 

However, I do not believe Prophets, and Imams have this luxury. A prophet cannot simply create something, they would require the permission and will of Allah. This is similar to Imam Ali, he cannot simply do something for the sake of doing it. He is an Imam, and is directed by Allah alone like prophets. Everything the Imam does, is a complete representation of what Allah has ordered him to do. 

That is why I provided examples from the Quran that highlight that these personalities required direct permission from Allah to do the extraordinary things they did. I am not comparing Prophets to Imams, but again stating that with the permission and will of Allah anything is possible. whatever knowledge Imam Ali has is by the will of Allah, whatever success he has is by the will of Allah... 

 

WS 

 

Edited by YoungSkiekh313

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On 5/29/2020 at 5:47 AM, Guest Quran and Itrah said:

Does anyone believe Imam Ali, with the permission of Allah, gives life, splits the seed, grows vegetation, forms us in our wombs, and by the permission of Allah, takes lives.

I think if Imam Ali (عليه السلام) were to hear some of the things some attributed to him, he would be very disappointed and quite possibly enraged.

Allahu allam, I stay far, far away from such beliefs.

Edited by Mahdavist
Statements that attributed ghuluw and commented on the status of an Imam without evidence were removed

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On 5/29/2020 at 9:17 AM, Guest Quran and Itrah said:

I just wanted to survey the opinions of those on Shia Chat.

Does anyone believe Imam Ali, with the permission of Allah, gives life, splits the seed, grows vegetation, forms us in our wombs, and by the permission of Allah, takes lives.

Would such a person be considered a Mushrik, and one who has committed Shirk?

It is not true.

Yes imam can do maricles even give life to desth if Allah willed.That too in specific instance.

Not only Imams but ordinary individuals can do maricles by will of Allah.

In indipently imams can do nothing.

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On 6/1/2020 at 6:24 PM, THREE1THREE said:

Only alone forms the humans in the womb. No prophet in the past had a miracle like that.

It only Allah who does.

Imam can do maricles that if Allah permitted.Rest imam can do nothing indipently.

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On 6/3/2020 at 5:30 AM, randomly curious said:

 

The basic fact and faith is that Allah is the owner of all atributes.

So Prophet saw or Imam or Awlias can do maricles only with permission of Allah and when needed.

If we believe any of maricle or Prophet saw or Imam as indidipendent and personal ability then it Shrik.

Edited by Mahdavist
Quoted statement has been removed

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1 minute ago, YoungSkiekh313 said:

Salam brother, 

can you please provide hadiths pertaining to this? 

 

WS 

w.s brother, 

 

as Allah azwj says in surah rahman

 

Everyone upon it will perish [55:26]

 

And there will remain the Face of your Lord, with the Majesty and the Honour [55:27]

 

so in tafseer we get face is reffered to the Masoomeen (عليه السلام) 

and if Mawla (عليه السلام) says i am the first and the last 

this means He was created very first as noor and as for the last it means only Allah azwj and Masoomeen (عليه السلام) will remain. rest everything will perish.

 

One Bedouin asked Amirul Momineen (s.a.):

Mawla (s.a.) tell me something about you.

Imam (s.a.) said:

“I am Siddeeq e Akbar, and Farooq e Azam, and I am Wasi of Khairul Bashar ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.w.), and I am Awwal, and I am Akhar, and I am Zahir, and I am Batin, and I have the knowledge of everything, and I am Eye of Allah, and I am Janb Ullah, and I am trustee of Allah over Prophets ((عليه السلام).), due 
to me worship of Allah was done, and we are the trusties of the treasures of Allah in the skies and the earth, and I give life, and I give death, and I am that alive that there is no death 
for me.” 

Bedouin got perplexed.

(So Mawla Ali (s.a.) explained to him 
according to his capacity, so that he should not loose his faith) 


(al Qatra, V 2, P 192)

 

also knowledge of everything doesn't mean literally everything. i will post a Hadeeth similar to it

 

 Rasool Allah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.w.) said: “Certainly when I went 
to my Rabb during Mairaj, He sent me revelation from behind the veil, whatever revelation it was, and addressed to me and during this address He said this as well:

Ya Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.w.)! Ali (s.a.) Awwal, Ali (s.a.) Akhar, Ali 
(s.a.) Zahir, Ali (s.a.) Batin, and he has the knowledge of everything.

I asked:

Ya Rabb! Are you not like that? Is this 
not for you? He said: Ya Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.w.)! I am Allah, there is non worthy of worship except Me. I am al-Malik-ul Quddoos-us Salaam-ul Momin-ul Mohaimin-ul Aziz-ul 
Jabbar-ul Muttakabbir, and I am above the Shirk of polytheists. No doubt I am Allah, there is non worthy of worship except me, I am Khaliq, Bari, Mussawir, Asmaul Husna are for Me, whatever is in the skies and the earth is doing my Tasbeeh, and I am Azizul Hakeem.

 

Ya Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.w.)! no doubt I am Allah, there is non worthy of worship except Me, I am Awwal there is nothing before that, and I am Akhar there is nothing after Me, and I 
am Zahir there is nothing above Me, and I am Batin there is nothing under Me, and I am Allah, there is none worthy of worship except Me, I have the knowledge of everything. 
Ya Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.w.)! Ali (s.a.) is Awwal among Imams (s.a.a.), first of all covenant was taken concerning him. Ya Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.w.)! Ali (s.a.) is Akhar, he will return to 
Me last of all Imams (s.a.a.), and he is Da’abbatul Arz who will speak to them. Ya Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.w.)! Ali (s.a.) is Zahir, whatever I revealed to you, it is known to him, it is not 
like this that anything is hidden from him. Ya Mohammad  ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.w.)! Ali (s.a.) is Batin, he is keeper of my secrets, which secrets are with you as well, there is no secret between 
Me and you which is hidden from him. Ya Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.w.)! Whatever Halaal and Haraam has been created, 
Ali (s.a.) has its knowledge. 

 


(Basair al Darajat, V 2, P 475)

 

 

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4 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

Allah azwj says in surah rahman

 

Everyone upon it will perish [55:26]

 

And there will remain the Face of your Lord, with the Majesty and the Honour [55:27]

I have come across different commentary of above verse.

That is Allah doesn't say I that in future everything will  persish.

But he says right now everything is perished and nothing exists.

Then what exists is Allah'.

Ie that means what ever you see is not what you see but Allah' .

 

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2 minutes ago, islam25 said:

I have come across different commentary of above verse.

That is Allah doesn't say I that in future everything will  persish.

But he says right now everything is perished and nothing exists.

Then what exists is Allah'.

Ie that means what ever you see is not what you see but Allah' .

 

I'd request you please if you say anything quote a Hadeeth or a verse from the Holy Qur'an instead of opinions

 

obviously that's reffered to the day of judgement. 

nothing exists? lol bro what kind of opinion is that

rather nothing will exist on the day of judgement expect for Allah azwj and His face i.e Masoomeen (عليه السلام)

Edited by randomly curious

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6 minutes ago, islam25 said:

have come across different commentary of above verse.

That is Allah doesn't say I that in future everything will  persish.

But he says right now everything is perished and nothing exists.

Then what exists is Allah'.

Ie that means what ever you see is not what you see but Allah' .

 

also the verse says "will perish" and not already perished.

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2 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

I'd request you please if you say anything quote a Hadeeth or a verse from the Holy Qur'an instead of opinions

I don't have references.

But if I got lecture of the Scholar from Qum I will send.

Definitely he clearly says the arabic text of Quran have present tense meaning right now it is pershied.

Ie it not what  we see but Alttributes of Allah.

Wajhullaah also means manifestation of Attributes.

 

 

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bro youre just saying your opinions 

wait, let me quote tafseer

 

 And from him, from Al-Hassan Bin Ahmad, from Muhammad Bin Isa, from Yunus Bin Abdul Rahman, from 
Yunus Biin Yaqoub, from the one who narrated it to him, 

(It has been narrated) from Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) regarding the Words of Allah-azwj Mighty and Majestic:

All things will perish except for His Face [28:88], said: ‘But, what is Intended by it is the Face of Allah-azwj, and face of Ali (عليه السلام) ’

 

al ehtejaj vol.1 p.253

 ‘From Abu Abdullah (عليه السلام) , he (the narrator) said,

I heard him (عليه السلام) saying: All things will perish except for His Face [28:88]:

‘We (عليه السلام) are the Face of Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic’

 

 Muhammad Bin Al-Abbas, from Abdullah Bin Hamam, from Abdullah Bin Ja’far, from Ibrahim Bin Hisham, from Muhammad Bin Khalid, from Al-Hassan Bin Mahboub, from Al-Ahowl, from Salam Bin Al-Mustaneer who said, 


‘I asked Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) about the Words of Allahazwj Mighty and Majestic:

All things will perish except for His Face [28:88]. Heasws said: ‘By Allah-azwj! We (عليه السلام) are the ones who have been Spoken about, and we will never perish up to the Day of Judgement with what Allah-azwj has Commanded with from obedience to us-asws, and being in our Wilayah.

 

taaweel al aayat vol.1 p.425

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, randomly curious said:

the ones who Have enough intellect can understand the meaning of "will perish" is reffering to the day of judgement.

I in senses enough to understand differnce between "will persish" and "perish".

Definitely the scholar from Qum after reading for 20 years too might be knowing it.

It is he who said the scholars believe that this verse says right now everything is pershied not in future. Then what is left or what exists in reality is face of Allah.

I may add the famous saying of Imam Ali.

That I don't see anything but Allah before it ,in it and after it.

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7 minutes ago, islam25 said:

I in senses enough to understand differnce between "will persish" and "perish".

Definitely the scholar from Qum after reading for 20 years too might be knowing it.

It is he who said the scholars believe that this verse says right now everything is pershied not in future. Then what is left or what exists in reality is face of Allah.

I may add the famous saying of Imam Ali.

That I don't see anything but Allah before it ,in it and after it.

argure with Quran and Hadeeth and not opinions. i dont care whoever believes wahtsoever the Hadeth are manifest for us and the meaning is clear that it refers to day of judgement

also please stop giving opinions again and again

Edited by randomly curious

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Just now, randomly curious said:

argure with Quran and Hadeeth and not opinions. i dont care whoever believes wahtsoever the Hadeth are manifest in from of us and the meaning is clear that it refers to day of judgement

also please stop giving opinions again and again

I am not saying my openion but the scholar from Qum.

I didn't write my view but saying of Imam Ali as.

You may challenge him how he instead of things see Allah.

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