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In the Name of God بسم الله
Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

Additions makes Tashahud void, then what is fatwa on Imam Jaffer e Sadiq (عليه السلام)?

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I can respond to the article written in article above, but since its irrelevent to the topic, i'd just expose the article in a single shot.

6 hours ago, AStruggler said:

The primary narrator is majhool (unknown)

Ladies and gentle man, see for yourself.

image.png.39921713fc4acb5c59e4cba22e69226d.png image.thumb.png.9bd60e7d94534934aef3f0fa2f29440f.png

Qasim Bin Muawiyah is Thiqa but article says he is Majhool

And many books and sources have been lost in 1000 years so you cannot say since its not in earlier books so we cannot trust.

In Muadmah of Al Ehtejaj, allam tabrisi said: he has only narrated narrations that are authentic via sanad and famous among ulima e rijal thus he hasn't quoted chains for any of such narrations. Did he lie? Lmao. So it indeed had a chain that one of our great scholors trusted. And Even ulima who made videos against shahadat e salisa from Lahore accepted this narration but interpreted it differently. 

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10 hours ago, Cool said:

And while you're believing that tehreef is done in Qur'an on the basis of ahadith of any grade, you're actually not following the Quran & are accepting those narrations which contradicts wirh the Qur'an.

And just look at yourself, whom you're following when you deny the need of any teacher for understanding the ilm-ul-ahadith! 

We are focused on what they have recited in tashahud during their prayers. And there shouldn't be any confusion nor any contradiction present. 

That's that very clarity due to which third testimony is not considered as part of adhan & aqamah by majority of mujtahedeen. 

We do not hesitate. The difference is in the niyah in adhan & aqamah as we recite it with the knowledge of istahbaab and don't recite it in tashahud because of the teachings & sunnah of Aimma e Tahireen (عليه السلام)

 

ذَلِكَ مَبْلَغُهُم مِّنَ الْعِلْمِ

We have clarity where should we recite third testimony & where shouldn't. You just keep accepting what looks best to suit to your "hawa-e-nafs" and reject all those which doesn't suits it. 

Purple: Tehreef in Quran in terms of omission doesn't contradict Quran. Rather its established by authentic narrations. And i have talked about this in my thread on Tehreef.

Blue: There is contradiction but between Aima (عليه السلام) and your mujtahids. Your Mujtahids contradict Aima (عليه السلام) by calling Tashahud fixed and issuing fatwas that Namaz is batil and donot add to tashaud while Aima (عليه السلام) themselves added to Tashahud different testimonies and Imam e Raza (عليه السلام) testified to ali un wali ullah in his tashaud, even if that hadith is weak, it doesn't contradict any authentic hadith and can be used to prove ali un wali ullah mustahab.

Yellow: Its actually the opposite. I have proved in one of my articles that you people have innovated azaan and iqamah as per your own standards not mine.  If any imam fixed tashaud, called namaz batil for adding into tashahud then bring a single narration! Else, you arem't folowing Sunnah of Aima (عليه السلام), you are opposing the sunnah of Aima (عليه السلام)

 

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On 5/30/2020 at 7:10 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

It's nothing more than testimonies.

 

from Safwan Bin Yahya - from Mansoor - from Bakar Bin Habeeb who said: I asked Imam (عليه السلام) about qunut and Tashahud he replied: Recite what seems best. Al kafi chapter of Tashahud hadith#2.

Majlisi Awal in Rawdat ul Mutaqeen declared its Sanad upto Bakar Bin Habeeb sahih and said Bakar Bin Habeeb is Majhool.

See the highlighted narrator. He is from Ashaab Al Ijma and there is Ijma of shias on reliability of hadiths transmitted by them and objection of few scholors like Khoie against ijma has no weight.

Thus its a Sahih hadith.

tell me if you need scans of comment of Majlisi.

You mentioned ijma of Shias, shias or Mujtahids?

And about Ayotullah khoi, you have more weight than his statement?  Are you mujtahid please show your sanad here.

Thirdly, if Imam said recite what is best, for this, shall we look upon what they read or they said read best not from us but what best poetry you can come up with ?

Edited by Flying_Eagle

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I really wish that I could "jack-in" ala the Matrix and instantly learn how to read this

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On 5/30/2020 at 5:13 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I know very well ulima here suggest its regarding salawat

 

. But how did you derive that meaning? Any prove? 

Hadith indicates that taking names are allowed but Mustahab and darood on Aal e Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is wajib after tashahud not Mustahab.

Contrary to this, imam said recite what seems best.

 

Thread discusses Mustahab izkaar of tashahud so clearly anything more than 2 testimonies is Mustahab.

 

Marry daughters of mothers? Lolz no thanks!

Gonna let you enjoy and explore hbbi, see you in about 10 years time ;) 

to spead the process up learn how the akhBari methodology of deriving Ahkam works (حدائق الناضرة). 
 

or just simply go through the istidlal of kitab us Salat. 
 

aplogies for misunderstanding you. Your claim is that it is permissible to add to the  tashahud, ( I agree )if so then u must admit that any dua is beneficial to add in. I as a follower of the imams (عليه السلام) would say in my tashahud what they (عليه السلام) said. 

Hence why you are following your Aql (you believe in Qiyas?) is your aql better than the imams? Give me what the imam said in his tashahhud and I will do the same. Don’t give me your opinion. 
 

Don’t say the imam told us to say whatever we want, is that the function of an imam? Hmmm? What a great way of honouring the imam (عليه السلام). 
 

how many imams were there?

how many tashahud did they say in thier lives?

if u bring me anything not mutawatir then sorry I’m not gonna say it in my tashahdud. I’m gonna stick with saying THE EXACT SAME WORDS they said. 
 

if u bought a weak Hadith with 3rd tashahud in thier I would recite it. I know they exist and if somebody wants to use that Hadith it’s fine. What you are doing is trying to invent your own methodology. 
 

sincere advice from someone who went down your path, study the religion and don’t be biased. The truth will come to you 

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On 5/30/2020 at 5:13 AM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

know very well ulima here suggest its regarding salawat

 

. But how did you derive that meaning? Any prove? 

Hadith indicates that taking names are allowed but Mustahab and darood on Aal e Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is wajib after tashahud not Mustahab.

Nope I don’t know where you got that from bro. Literally just read the footnote in the Hadith that you posted, what’s the issue?

The footnote explained the Hadith clearly. The imam (عليه السلام) answers the very question you are posing here.


If you know then why did you post it?

i don’t know, please explain to me brother this Hadith. 

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4 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

You mentioned ijma of Shias, shias or Mujtahids?

And about Ayotullah khoi, you have more weight than his statement?  Are you mujtahid please show your sanad here.

Thirdly, if Imam said recite what is best, for this, shall we look upon what they read or they said read best not from us but what best poetry you can come up with ?

You can ever read that on wiki.

Khoei doesn't have more weight that ijma and this ijma has been quoted in Rijal Al Kashi.

I even saw complete video of Allamah Imtiaz Abbas Kazmi on this. I heard scholors, thus i wrote it. A few odd views againts ijma holds no weight at all.

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Guest Deen al Islam

I just want to understand your methodology brother,

Do you believe there are any omissions in the Quran?

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6 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

You can ever read that on wiki.

Khoei doesn't have more weight that ijma and this ijma has been quoted in Rijal Al Kashi.

I even saw complete video of Allamah Imtiaz Abbas Kazmi on this. I heard scholors, thus i wrote it. A few odd views againts ijma holds no weight at all.

Lolz, wiki is an open source web, every one can write there whatever they want. 

The views of khoei are in agreement with ijma of all ulemas in this age, and if you were right about your claim, the great number of Mujtahids would not have differed to ijma which you claim. 

About Allama Abbas kazmi, there are many ulemas in this age that say things that aren't said or meant by our Aaimah such as Jawad Naqvi. So, it doesn't mean they are right about what they say. 

Brother, about the hadith you mentioned and claims to be sahih if it's in reality Sahih, it means that read the best what Imams read in Qunoot and Tashud not with what you come up with in your mind. 

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49 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Lolz, wiki is an open source web, every one can write there whatever they want. 

The views of khoei are in agreement with ijma of all ulemas in this age, and if you were right about your claim, the great number of Mujtahids would not have differed to ijma which you claim. 

About Allama Abbas kazmi, there are many ulemas in this age that say things that aren't said or meant by our Aaimah such as Jawad Naqvi. So, it doesn't mean they are right about what they say. 

Brother, about the hadith you mentioned and claims to be sahih if it's in reality Sahih, it means that read the best what Imams read in Qunoot and Tashud not with what you come up with in your mind. 

See. People like you are jahil enough to say all this non sense here.

Jawad Naqvi rarely quotes any source while imtiaz Abbas kazmi mostly quotes different sources.

Wikishia has quoted sayings of Ulima with references of their books.

Comparison to views of Al-Kashi a shia scholor from 3/4 century, khoeis objection holds zero weight since kashi has quoted ijma over reliability of hadiths transmitted by Ashaab Al Ijma and this usool has been accepted my many great scholors.

Odd views against usool over which Mazhab e Shia has ijma holds no weight.

If you doubt, go check references out and prove it wrong.

Plus your interpretation is totally false and goes against wordings of hadith itself. Hadith indeed is sahih and imam didn't say recite what we have told you to recite. Imam said recite what seems best. He said it to Bakar Bin Habeeb (his companion).

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2 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

See. People like you are jahil enough to say all this non sense here.

Jawad Naqvi rarely quotes any source while imtiaz Abbas kazmi mostly quotes different sources.

Wikishia has quoted sayings of Ulima with references of their books.

Comparison to views of Al-Kashi a shia scholor from 3/4 century, khoeis objection holds zero weight since kashi has quoted ijma over reliability of hadiths transmitted by Ashaab Al Ijma and this usool has been accepted my many great scholors.

Odd views against usool over which Mazhab e Shia has ijma holds no weight.

If you doubt, go check references out and prove it wrong.

Plus your interpretation is totally false and goes against wordings of hadith itself. Hadith indeed is sahih and imam didn't say recite what we have told you to recite. Imam said recite what seems best. He said it to Bakar Bin Habeeb (his companion).

Now you are desperate and confused, the moment you realize you are wrong. 

Imtiaz Abbas kazim never goes to Mujtahids and corrects them, if a person is really true in his claim, he should challenge mujtahids if he really want to guide ummah. Thus, avoiding challenge, makes me think that his claims are meant to pervert simple man like you. 

Even if Kashi says that Ashab ul ijma think this hadith to be correct, there are other ahadith that contradict this hadith and they are held correct too. 

When a situation arises that two contradicting hadith are held Sahih, the onus is on logic and rationality. The rationality says that we should recite what Imams recited because they knew more than us. If you want to recite poetry in Tashud according to hadith which you posted, would it be best or what Imams taught us?

If you have aqal, you will reach to correct conclusions but if you want pervert people then there is no remedy for you except you relinquish such bad habit.

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3 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Now you are desperate and confused, the moment you realize you are wrong. 

Imtiaz Abbas kazim never goes to Mujtahids and corrects them, if a person is really true in his claim, he should challenge mujtahids if he really want to guide ummah. Thus, avoiding challenge, makes me think that his claims are meant to pervert simple man like you. 

Even if Kashi says that Ashab ul ijma think this hadith to be correct, there are other ahadith that contradict this hadith and they are held correct too. 

When a situation arises that two contradicting hadith are held Sahih, the onus is on logic and rationality. The rationality says that we should recite what Imams recited because they knew more than us. If you want to recite poetry in Tashud according to hadith which you posted, would it be best or what Imams taught us?

If you have aqal, you will reach to correct conclusions but if you want pervert people then there is no remedy for you except you relinquish such bad habit.

Imtiaz Kazmi defends wilayah Al Faqih and he is a learned Usuli scholor.

Why should i be confused, that comment just made me angry. You are rejecting a famous concept as if its nothing.

Be a man, and bring one narration in which imam said Tashahud is fixed. Practically there is no authentic hadith contradicting hadith of Bakar bin habeeb, thus you claim is baseless. Instead Authentic hadiths testify to Authenticity of hadith of Bakar bin Habeeb. Since all those hadiths prove Tashahud isn't fixed.

Recite poetry? In what? Do you even know meaning of Tashahud? What does poetry has to do with testimony lol. Forgive me but your comments aren't worth answering.

 

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21 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Imtiaz Kazmi defends wilayah Al Faqih and he is a learned Usuli scholor.

Why should i be confused, that comment just made me angry. You are rejecting a famous concept as if its nothing.

Be a man, and bring one narration in which imam said Tashahud is fixed. Practically there is no authentic hadith contradicting hadith of Bakar bin habeeb, thus you claim is baseless. Instead Authentic hadiths testify to Authenticity of hadith of Bakar bin Habeeb. Since all those hadiths prove Tashahud isn't fixed.

Recite poetry? In what? Do you even know meaning of Tashahud? What does poetry has to do with testimony lol. Forgive me but your comments aren't worth answering.

 

Tashud is taken from Shahid meaning testimony. If you say that Imam allowed you to say any best words make a poetry about tauheed and Risalah and Wilayah and read it in Tashud, it's best gift from you. No?

About Imtiaz kazmi Sahab, Its not my concern that he is usuli or not, Ayotullah khoi is usuli too. You feel no pain for saying him that he should be rejected while he is mujtahid. Why would I feel anything for imtiaz Sahab, he is not even close to Ayotullah khoi in religious degree. 

You can find many hadith which mention that Imams recited Tashud up to what is being said by majority. Help yourself and google it.

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10 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

he is not even close to Ayotullah khoi in religious degree

And khoie isn't even close to Al-Kashi or Tusi. End Quote.

 

11 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

You can find many hadith which mention that Imams recited Tashud up to what is being said by majority

same narrations mention addition of testimonies by Imams. and ulima issued fatawa based on these hadiths.

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9 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

And khoie isn't even close to Al-Kashi or Tusi. End Quote.

 

same narrations mention addition of testimonies by Imams. and ulima issued fatawa based on these hadiths.

I am no one to elevate or reduce position among the great scholars. End note is that Ayotullah khoi had more knowledge than Imtiaz Sahab, me and you. And his argument is based on extensive research work. First you said that Imam asked to recite what is best and when I told you that will you recite poetry, you say there are hadith saying that Imams read up to Aliyun Aliyun waliullah. It means you are not agreeing with that hadith because it fails to logic ? Right. After that I will answer further. 

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5 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

First you said that Imam asked to recite what is best and when I told you that will you recite poetry,

Tashahud word is related with testimony and not poetry,

5 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

First you said that Imam asked to recite what is best and when I told you that will you recite poetry, you say there are hadith saying that Imams read up to Aliyun Aliyun waliullah.

What are you trying to say?

Here is tashahud from Fiqh E Raza:

image.thumb.png.4d4cd74995a5fd803569001dbd263696.png

There are 9 different testimonies in Tashahud.

Before that, there is tashahud with 2 testimonies.

In Man La Yahzarahu Al Faqih:

There are 6 different testimonies in Imam Baqir's (عليه السلام) tashahud

In Tehzeeb Al Ahkam there are 4 different testimonies in tashahud of Imam Jaffer e Sadiq (عليه السلام)

Thus hadith of Bakar Bin Habeeb is (Sahih by chain) and also has evidences that are authentic like that of Tehzeeb Al Ahkam. But no need, since narration is authentic by itself.

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11 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Here is tashahud from Fiqh E Raza:

Salam the Tashahud part that you are focusing & insisting on it is the mustahab part so saying or not saying it doesn't  void Tashahud & Salat/Namaz only obligatory part of it is "  اَشْهَدُ اَنْ لااِلهَ اِلاَّ اللّهُ وَحْدَهُ لا شَریکَ لَهُ، وَ اَشْهَدُ اَنَّ مُحَمَّداً عَبْدُهُ وَ رَسُولُهُ، اَللّهُمَّ صَلِّ عَلی مُحَمَّدٍ وَ الِ مُحَمَّدٍ " then rest of it Mustahab 

http://fa.wikishia.net/view/تشهد

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?lid=0&mid=247623&typeinfo=23&catid=23938

http://namaz.ir/1398/05/13/تشهد-کامل/ (Tashahud Kamil [full])

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14 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Tashahud word is related with testimony and not poetry

You can give testimony in poetry too, it's most attractive and easy to remember. If you say that Imam said you recite what is best then how could you rule out poetry not to be best?

14 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

What are you trying to say?

Here is tashahud from Fiqh E Raza:

I'm trying to say that if that hadith is Sahih where Imam said recite what is best. Then a layman like you should not interpret this hadith and start reciting poetry or whatever comes to his mind. But ask scholars who know that Quran says:"Quran is not poetry but its words of Allah". And also says:"learn from those who know". So, you learn from narrators what is meant by "best". The "best" here means "not poetry" not "your thoughts" but "what Imams taught". 

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On 6/2/2020 at 1:33 PM, Flying_Eagle said:

You can give testimony in poetry too, it's most attractive and easy to remember. If you say that Imam said you recite what is best then how could you rule out poetry not to be best?

I'm trying to say that if that hadith is Sahih where Imam said recite what is best. Then a layman like you should not interpret this hadith and start reciting poetry or whatever comes to his mind. But ask scholars who know that Quran says:"Quran is not poetry but its words of Allah". And also says:"learn from those who know". So, you learn from narrators what is meant by "best". The "best" here means "not poetry" not "your thoughts" but "what Imams taught". 

May Allah guide you.

Have you not seen Tashahud has many testimonies like shahadataein and testifying that jannah is haq and jahanum is haq etc?

Tashahud of Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) has these testimonies in Man Lahyazarahu Al Faqih 

And hadith of bakar bin habeeb clearly points to taqqiyah that was practiced in narrating tashahud.

Imam (عليه السلام) said if it was fixed, people would have been killed. I ask you what could've killed people if tashahud was fixed? None of you people have every answered this but lemme show you an extract from speech of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) from Ghadeer e khum:

[2/185] الخصال: محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد، عن محمد بن الحسن الصفار، عن محمد بن الحسين بن أبي الخطاب ويعقوب بن يزيد جميعا، عن محمد بن أبي عمير، عن عبد الله بن سنان، عن معروف بن خربوذ، عن أبي الطفيل عامر بن واثلة، عن حذيفة بن أسيد الغفاري قال: لما رجع رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله من حجة الوداع ونحن معه أقبل حتى انتهى إلى الجحفة فأمر أصحابه بالنزول فنزل القوم منازلهم، ثم نودي بالصلاة فصلى بأصحابه ركعتين، ثم أقبل بوجهه إليهم فقال لهم: إنه قد نبأني اللطيف الخبير أني ميت وأنكم ميتون، وكأني قد دعيت فاجبت وأني مسؤول عما ارسلت به إليكم، وعما خلفت فيكم من كتاب الله وحجته وأنكم مسؤولون، فما أنتم قائلون لربكم؟ قالوا: نقول: قد بلغت ونصحت وجاهدت فجزاك الله عنا أفضل الجزاء ثم قال لهم: ألستم تشهدون أن لا إله إلا الله وأني رسول الله إليكم وأن الجنة حق؟ وأن النار حق؟ وأن البعث بعد الموت حق؟ فقالوا: نشهد بذلك، قال: اللهم اشهد على ما يقولون، ألا وإني اشهدكم أني أشهد أن الله مولاي، وأنا مولى كل مسلم، وأنا أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم، فهل تقرون لي بذلك، وتشهدون لي به؟ فقالوا: نعم نشهد لك بذلك، فقال: ألا من كنت مولاه فإن عليا مولاه 

I have no words for you people who deny or reject third testimony in tashahud.

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4 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I have no words for you people who deny or reject third testimony in tashahud

Well bro, I have no words for a man who considers himself more knowledgeable than existing all Marajas who had a consensus on Tashahud. You are not a Mujtahid bro, and you have no authority to reject Ayotullah khoi without knowing his complete answer. If you are that much convinced why not go to Ayotullah Seestani and obtain a fatwa that you are right and make a video. If you refuse, it means you are aware of your weaknesses and therefore giving pleas for it. For that I am sure that you will find a plea to refuse.

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48 minutes ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Well bro, I have no words for a man who considers himself more knowledgeable than existing all Marajas who had a consensus on Tashahud. You are not a Mujtahid bro, and you have no authority to reject Ayotullah khoi without knowing his complete answer. If you are that much convinced why not go to Ayotullah Seestani and obtain a fatwa that you are right and make a video. If you refuse, it means you are aware of your weaknesses and therefore giving pleas for it. For that I am sure that you will find a plea to refuse.

And your Marjas aren't more knowledgable than Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Allah will ask me if i followed Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), not Sistani or any marja.

What does this hadith of Ghadeer e khum tells?

Plus what sort of concensus is this? Against The Four Books? Against Hadiths? Against classical scholors?

Ayatullah Sistani never said its haram (according to my knowledge)

But i can show you Marjas, who allow third testimony with Videos. I will paste one or two here soon for you. Here is list of three who allow it.

1. Sheikh Muhammad Sanad (Alive) (Najaf Ashraf)

2. Yasoob Ud Deen Rustagar (Alive) (Grand Ayatullah) 

3. Syed Sadiq Shirazi (Alive) (Grand Ayatullah)

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3 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

And your Marjas aren't more knowledgable than Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Allah will ask me if i followed Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), not Sistani or any marja.

What does this hadith of Ghadeer e khum tells?

Plus what sort of concensus is this? Against The Four Books? Against Hadiths? Against classical scholors?

Ayatullah Sistani never said its haram (according to my knowledge)

But i can show you Marjas, who allow third testimony with Videos. I will paste one or two here soon for you. Here is list of three who allow it.

1. Sheikh Muhammad Sanad (Alive) (Najaf Ashraf)

2. Yasoob Ud Deen Rustagar (Alive) (Grand Ayatullah) 

3. Syed Sadiq Shirazi (Alive) (Grand Ayatullah)

Hmmm you have read about Prophet (PBUHHP) better than Ayotullah Seestani, I doubt that. For a person such as you who thinks that Ayotullah khoi iss less knowledgeable about classical fuqha than you and who considers Ayotullah Seestani to be less knowledgeable than him what can I say? You brother, i suggest that open a seminiary and rant about your knowledge, no one is going to be your disciple except those who have lost their way. I can show you many Marajas who recite tashud which is being normally read. And, you should better go such Ayotullahs as wrong, we will gladly listen to you and I will pay you an apology but you won't dare go I believe becoz you know you are not that much aware as those individuals.

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7 hours ago, Flying_Eagle said:

Hmmm you have read about Prophet (PBUHHP) better than Ayotullah Seestani, I doubt that. For a person such as you who thinks that Ayotullah khoi iss less knowledgeable about classical fuqha than you and who considers Ayotullah Seestani to be less knowledgeable than him what can I say? You brother, i suggest that open a seminiary and rant about your knowledge, no one is going to be your disciple except those who have lost their way. I can show you many Marajas who recite tashud which is being normally read. And, you should better go such Ayotullahs as wrong, we will gladly listen to you and I will pay you an apology but you won't dare go I believe becoz you know you are not that much aware as those individuals.

What can i say now. I can even quote a fatwa of classical scholor now. 

You are worshipping Sistani. Stop it.

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13 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

What can i say now. I can even quote a fatwa of classical scholor now. 

You are worshipping Sistani. Stop it.

You don't have anything left to say, you have said all the bad words. 

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