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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Salam

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How is Prophet Adam’s ((عليه السلام).) creation (about 5,764 years ago) make sense when fossils found from human beings are almost 25 million years old?

In some traditions coming from the imams ((عليه السلام).), we witness proof of the existence of eras of human beings prior to the current era.

Sheikh Saduq ((عليه السلام).) has narrated a hadith in which the imam tells the narrator: “You might believe that God Almighty has not created humans other than you. Well this is false because he has created millions of humans and you from the last generation of them.” [5]

In Khisal, Sheikh Saduq also narrates that Imam Baqir ((عليه السلام).) has stated: “From the time He created the earth, God Almighty has created within it, seven worlds (and made all of them instinct), none of which were of the generation of of Prophet Adam. God created all of them from the crust of this earth and created generation after generation with corresponding worlds for all generations till finally Prophet Adam was created and reproduced his descendants solely from him. [6] , [7]

[6] Sheikh Saduq, Khisal, vol. 2, pg. 652, hadith 54.

[7] Adopted from Quranic Inquiries website.

http://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/question/fa3297

 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235060044-age-of-universe/

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235053642-when-did-adam-as-appear-on-earth/

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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8 hours ago, Kousar786 said:

How old is universe and earth according islam ibn arabi says its 7000 years old how true is that

The universe is, in and of itself, ageless.  The universe is only of a certain age relative to the imposition that your mind creates in its conception of it (i.e. the universe).  Each and everyone of us is free to believe what we want to believe about the "age" of the universe.  Think about it.  In your dream (from the perspective of your dream itself) you find yourself in a dream universe in which you may not care when this dream-universe started if at all (it could have started, or it could have been there for ever), it doesn't matter --- I mean that it is irrelevant.  Well, this universe is just another such "dream".  You don;t have to call it a dream, but it works in exactly the same way!        

Edited by eThErEaL

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21 hours ago, Kousar786 said:

How old is universe and earth according islam ibn arabi says its 7000 years old how true is that

Ibne Arabi does not represent Islam, Ahlulbayt (عليهم اسلام) does. 

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2 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

You don’t represent the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام).  Ibn Arabi does. 

I'm not dust of foot of Ahlulbayt (عليهم اسلام). Ibne Arabi is not dust of my foot. 

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3 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

I am sorry.  Please do not insult a revered person by both Sunnis and Shias.  It is deeply offensive.  

The Reality of Ibn Arabi: Followed by the religious verdicts of 200 eminent sunni scholars who declared Muhiyudin ibn Arabi to be a disbeliever against his heretical beliefs and writings

https://www.amazon.com/Reality-Ibn-Arabi-religious-disbeliever/dp/B084QMDBH4

Give me a break. 

Edited by Sirius_Bright

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1 minute ago, Sirius_Bright said:

The Reality of Ibn Arabi: Followed by the religious verdicts of 200 eminent sunni scholars who declared Muhiyudin ibn Arabi to be a disbeliever against his heretical beliefs and writings

https://www.amazon.com/Reality-Ibn-Arabi-religious-disbeliever/dp/B084QMDBH4

Give me a break. 

You still should not be saying offensive things against someone who is revered by Sunnis and Shias.  

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On 5/27/2020 at 10:28 AM, Kousar786 said:

How old is universe and earth according islam ibn arabi says its 7000 years old how true is that

Islam doesn't gives any idea of age of the Earth & Universe. Qur'an however mentions the creation of Heavens & Earth in 6 periods or days. We don't know exactly what was the length of each period or day in the eyes of God. So what Ibn Arabi or any other Muslim scholar have estimated are mere estimations probably made from the age of Adam (عليه السلام) and Prophets after him like Christians claims that the age of Universe is 6000-10000 years. Current scientific understanding is not inline with these estimations. 
 

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Ibn Arabi has been highkey one of the greatest influences on my view of Islam period. He was an amazing man may Allah bless him, though of course not infallible. Please do not take the exact numbering of days seriously, many times numbers are not "as they are" when describing creation or in the subject of eschatology. Just assume it was stated as in "7000 years" just equated to a long period of time. 

 

 

 

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On 5/28/2020 at 8:00 AM, eThErEaL said:

You still should not be saying offensive things against someone who is revered by Sunnis and Shias.  

With due respect, but Ibn Arabi and his likes are not revered by religious orthodox Shiites. @Sirius_Bright is more than correct in his stance on him. To increase patriotic and nationalist feelings, modern Iran celebrates Persian Sufis to some degree, but that doesn’t mean that we should take our religion from them, the Sunni mystics. Our orthodox scholars of the past had a relatively clear positions on them. Ibn Arabi has been condemned by many as a heretic and a deviant. In his work, Fusus al-Hikam he wrote, for example, that the people that worshipped the gold calf during the absence of the nabi Musa ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), should be cherished and not condemned because, “as per Allah’s commands”, they never ceased the worship of Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) so nabi Hārūn ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was wrong in trying to stop them. He concludes, “For the Gnostic is the one who sees the Truth (Allāh) in everything, indeed he sees the Truth to be everything.” That’s why a lot of Shia ulama condemned and condemns irfan because it can be very dangerous to religious (mis)understanding. 

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On 5/30/2020 at 7:03 PM, OrthodoxTruth said:

With due respect, but Ibn Arabi and his likes are not revered by religious orthodox Shiites. @Sirius_Bright is more than correct in his stance on him. To increase patriotic and nationalist feelings, modern Iran celebrates Persian Sufis to some degree, but that doesn’t mean that we should take our religion from them, the Sunni mystics. Our orthodox scholars of the past had a relatively clear positions on them. Ibn Arabi has been condemned by many as a heretic and a deviant. In his work, Fusus al-Hikam he wrote, for example, that the people that worshipped the gold calf during the absence of the nabi Musa ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), should be cherished and not condemned because, “as per Allah’s commands”, they never ceased the worship of Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) so nabi Hārūn ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was wrong in trying to stop them. He concludes, “For the Gnostic is the one who sees the Truth (Allāh) in everything, indeed he sees the Truth to be everything.” That’s why a lot of Shia ulama condemned and condemns irfan because it can be very dangerous to religious (mis)understanding. 

 Ibn Arabi was not a Persian by the way.

In any case, calling Ibn Arabi a heretic is pretty pathetic.  IF this truly represents Shiaism (which it doesn't), then I would like to stay miles away from "your Shiaism".

I also find it pretty unfair how this forum allows people insult highly revered figures in the Islamic World.  What Sirius Bright said was down right insulting.  

in any case, 

good bye.

   

 

 

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1 minute ago, eThErEaL said:

 Ibn Arabi was not a Persian by the way.

In any case, calling Ibn Arabi a heretic is pretty pathetic.  IF this truly represents Shiaism (which it doesn't), then I would like to stay miles away from "your Shiaism".

I also find it pretty unfair how this forum allows people insult highly revered figures in the Islamic World.  What Sirius Bright said was down right insulting.  

in any case, 

good bye.

   

 

 

I fully agree. I am actually of the view myself that Ibn Arabi was a closet Shi'i. So much of what he taught is just unsaid of in Sunnism, I believe he was practicing Taqqiya in the true sense. Nonetheless he was revolutionary and true to the spirit of the Ahlulbayt. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless his soul. Incredible figure in our esoteric tradition :love:

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On 5/28/2020 at 7:53 AM, Sirius_Bright said:

Many Shi'a & Sunni consider him disbeliever. 

And Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has this to say in the Holy Qur'an about such people: 

"And We have put a barrier before them and a barrier behind them, then We have blind-folded them, so they do not see." (Surah 36:9)

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2 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 Ibn Arabi was not a Persian by the way.

Never claimed he was a Persian.

Quote

In any case, calling Ibn Arabi a heretic is pretty pathetic.  IF this truly represents Shiaism (which it doesn't), then I would like to stay miles away from "your Shiaism".

Shows how little you know about Shia Islam. You can stay from whatever you want, I’ll keep to the orthodox version of my faith. You are nobody to issue religious rulings what represents Shia Islam and what doesn’t. I go by the writings of our classical scholars who condemned tasawwuf, falsafa, and Sufi mystics.

Ibn Arabi and other mystics believe in wahdat al-wujud, that everything is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and there is only one existent (mawjud), which runs against the orthodox Shi’ite beliefs. Allamah Majlisi (ha) in his Aqaid al-Islam (p. 48) writes that the doctrine of wahdat al-wujud “constitutes of greatest unbelief (kufr)”. Sayyid Muhammad Kazim al-Tabatabaei al-Yazdi (ha) in his al-‘Urwa al-wuthqa (vol. 1, p. 145) writes that “there is no doubt about the ritual impurity (najasa) of the ghulat, the khawarij, the nawasib, those who ascribe a body to Allah (mujassima), those who are determinists (mujbira), and the Sufis who believe in wahdat al-wujud since they mix the practice of Islam with their corrupt ideas and practices.” Ibn Arabi was attacked not only on the basis of belief in wahdat al-wujud, but also for other beliefs that run contradictory to Shia Islam. He, as other Sunni Sufis, denied the eternal punishment in the hereafter, which emphasise his belief in determinism (jabriyya). Sufis hold everyone to be equal, they practice sulh-i kull and consider no one to be bad, hence undermining the Shi’i belief in walayat and bara’at (Qummi, Radd-i sufiyya, p. 147). 

Read further on irfan and tasawwuf in Muhammad Tahir Qummi’s (ha) Radd-i sufiyya, Muhammad Ali b. Muhammad Mu’min Husayni Tabatabaei Bihbahani Shirazi’s (ha) al-Radda’ al-sufiyya wa al-falasifa, the latter is a great critique of Mulla Sadr and the Sufi belief in wahdat al-wujud. Sayyid Muhammad Ali Bihbahani (ha) completely eradicated Sufism in Kermanshah, and numerous Persian cities. He wrote a fierce criticism of Sufism Khayratiyyah dar ibtal tariqat Sufiyya. Allamah Bihbahani (ha) stroke  such a fear among Sufis, that they nicknamed him “Sufi killer.” For more contemporary criticism see for example the works of Sayyid Muhammad Taqi Mudaressi (al-irfan al-islami) or Sayyid Qasim Ali-Ahmadi (Tanzih al-ma’bud...).

Bring forth arguments from scholarly books instead of throwing tantrums and insults at anyone who disagrees with you. If you want to take your religion from a Sunni Sufi, and are ready to die defending him, it is up to you, but don’t expect all the others to automatically agree.

Quote

I also find it pretty unfair how this forum allows people insult highly revered figures in the Islamic World.  What Sirius Bright said was down right insulting.  

in any case, 

good bye.

He hasn’t insulted anyone, but just pointed out that we follow the school of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), and not Sunni Sufism. Your censorship mentality is the same mentality that the Wahhabis have, if someone disagrees, you want to shut him down. Bring forth your proofs from Shia SCHOLARLY books why we should take our religion from ibn Arabi, Rumi, Ibn Sina, and the likes instead of getting angry. 

Edited by OrthodoxTruth

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3 hours ago, al-Muttaqin said:

And Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has this to say in the Holy Qur'an about such people: 

"And We have put a barrier before them and a barrier behind them, then We have blind-folded them, so they do not see." (Surah 36:9)

Wow! Randomly picking an ayah without knowing it's Tafseer. 

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3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 Ibn Arabi was not a Persian by the way.

In any case, calling Ibn Arabi a heretic is pretty pathetic.  IF this truly represents Shiaism (which it doesn't), then I would like to stay miles away from "your Shiaism".  

I haven't insulted him.

On 5/28/2020 at 1:11 AM, Sirius_Bright said:

I'm not dust of foot of Ahlulbayt (عليهم اسلام). Ibne Arabi is not dust of my foot. 

Not being dust of the foot means 'cannot be compared'. Since Ibne Arabi believed and wrote all kufr and shirk, he cannot be compared to me. It's my opinion.

3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

I also find it pretty unfair how this forum allows people insult highly revered figures in the Islamic World. 

This forum allows those things about Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah is highly revered my most sunnis. And again I didn't insulted. Read your own books. So many sunni scholars have called him kafir. Go lecture them. 

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On 5/27/2020 at 6:40 PM, eThErEaL said:

The universe is, in and of itself, ageless.  The universe is only of a certain age relative to the imposition that your mind creates in its conception of it (i.e. the universe).

Salam,

Well what is the "haqeeqah" (reality) of this universe then? Everything that begins to exist has an age whatsoever, how can this universe become "ageless"? We may say we don't know exactly its age but how can we say that it is ageless? Please elaborate your statement for me. 

Many thanks. 

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2 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

Ibn Arabi and other mystics believe in wahdat al-wujud, that everything is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and there is only one existent (mawjud), which runs against the orthodox Shi’ite beliefs.

That is a strawman, Wahdat al-Wujud is NOT pantheism. Wahdat al-Wujud is a concept relating to the Universe's reliance on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). No Muslim would claim that Allah is everything because that would be attributing an abstract form to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), creation has form and Allah has no form and is the originator of form itself. As the Qur'an says everywhere "there is nothing like him" (Surah 42:11, Surah 112:4, etc) and "give no likeness to him" (Surah 16:74, etc). 

Wahdat al-Wujud in it's original, proper esoteric (batin) context is simply just an explication of the names of Allah as-Samad and al-Wasi, speaking about their actuality. 

As for Your mention of Mawjud, well one of Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) names IS al-Haqq. Heck, it's even there in Ayat al-Kursi.

You should know the importance of knowing the names of Allah.

You'll struggle to find a Sufi pantheist, they will all scream Kafir at you for suggesting such a blasphemous notion. 

Edited by al-Muttaqin

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Furthermore if you for a second think that the Universe can have an ontological existence without Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sustaining it, then you are basically a clear Atheist. 

If you think that the Universe has some kind of separate existence in itself, then you are also a dualist believing there to be two gods. Also Kafir.

Edited by al-Muttaqin

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4 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Salam,

Well what is the "haqeeqah" (reality) of this universe then? Everything that begins to exist has an age whatsoever, how can this universe become "ageless"? We may say we don't know exactly its age but how can we say that it is ageless? Please elaborate your statement for me. 

Many thanks. 

Wa Alaykum Salam,

The universe as I am using this term is akin to a dream in which there are dream objects and dream people.  The people in the dream can have an age, a history, they can come and go, the dream objects also can have an age or a history, they come and go.  But the dream itself does not begin or end in relation to any of the contents (dream objects and dream people) of dream.  Sure, there can be a dream universe (within the dream) that can be said to have begun X billions of years ago... but the real universe of the dream is the dream itself which is relatively ageless (relatively ageless because it has no beginning or end that can be measured from within the dream itself).  Yes, the dream itself does have A beginning and end relative to our waking state (when we are awake we say, my dream began and ended sometime while I was asleep.  
But think about our actual universe.  What is our actual universe?  Is our actual universe what we “say” it is? No!  Whatever it is, it cannot possibly Have a beginning or an end by any standard of measurement from within the universe itself.  Relative to another universe outside of it, it can have a beginning and an end!  So the hereafter (the life of the next world can be this “other” universe) and therefore can be a means to measure this universe just like how our waking state can be a standard of measurement for our dream, but nothing “within” the dream can measure the dream.  
 

I hope I am clear in what I am trying to say.

Edited by eThErEaL

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19 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

it cannot possibly Have a beginning or an end by any standard of measurement from within the universe itself.

I got your point, many thanks brother.

JazakAllah! 

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On 5/27/2020 at 1:28 AM, Kousar786 said:

How old is universe and earth according islam ibn arabi says its 7000 years old how true is that

Quran reveals "Kun fayakun". In English, the Bible reads "Be, and it was."

In both cases we have the 'how', but not the 'when'.

Universe by our Time is 14 to 14.5 Billion years old.

This "6,000 B.C."/8000 B.P. scat is Babylonian based Kabala.

 

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9 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

I got your point, many thanks brother.

JazakAllah! 

It is also interesting to note that we cannot have an accurate conception of “our universe” just as you cannot have an accurate conception of the dream itself as you are dreaming it.  Imagine if you were to try to point (empirically or conceptually) to the dream as you are dreaming it (Whatever you point to in your dream will, by definition, not be the dream itself but some content of your dream.   We are utterly at a loss in understanding our universe as it really is.  This is why we absolutely need guidance from revelation to help us orient where we are and where we are heading.  
 

we have plethora of Hadith and Quran verses that indicate that a day with God or a day in the hereafter is like 50,000 of what we reckon.  Truly, our life here on earth is just like a dream.  We will only truly understand it when we wake up into the next world.  
 

These Hadith and Quranic verses are there to make us reflect on how incapable we are in understanding the proportionality of the next world with this world.  It makes us also understand how much we don’t know about our own world. 

 

Edited by eThErEaL

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15 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

how incapable we are in understanding the proportionality of the next world with this world.

 

Salam,

I like your analogy of dream, we really have no idea about it, as you have pointed out. It reminds me couple of verses of Quran which mentions this:
 

Quote

He will say: How many years did you tarry in the earth?
They will say: We tarried a day or part of a day, but ask those who keep account.
He will say: You did tarry but a little-- had you but known (it):

(23:112-114)

 

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On 5/27/2020 at 6:28 AM, Kousar786 said:

How old is universe and earth according islam ibn arabi says its 7000 years old how true is that

Universe is much older than 7000 years old, anyhow how did he manage to deduce its only 7000 years old?

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