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In the Name of God بسم الله
Oskar

Imam Ali is Sunni or shia?

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Salam 

i was watching a tv show I’m gonna stop watching Sunnis show trying to argue  shia into become like them,  every time I come into shichat I get more knowledge and their reasons feel more foolish but anyways this I couldnt figure out 

Anyways here are his reasons for imam Ali (عليه السلام) being Sunni 

1. Imam Ali named his children abu bakr and Omar 

2. Imam Ali says that he prays 5 times like Sunnis but we only pray 3 (he says he said it in nahjul balagha)

3. Imam Ali was against sighah and building shrines but our Rohanis do the opposite, also any opinions about the shrines that have been built although I have to say they are beautiful even if this is true.

4. He also said imam Ali (عليه السلام) gave his daughter to abu bakr, why did he do this?

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The way I think about it is like this. Would Imam Ali (عليه السلام) if alive today listen to poetry and songs about him whilst sitting in a community centre (not masjid) with no care for salah/QuranEtc (anything islamic) Would he then round it off by chest beating and a blood bath of self flagellation concluding in a massive rice party with the name of other than all being used on the food? oh I forgot to add, maybe pray salah if you can fit it in. Not too important though. 

if he wouldn’t be in such gatherings you’ll find your answer 

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2 hours ago, UndercoverBrother said:

The way I think about it is like this. Would Imam Ali (عليه السلام) if alive today listen to poetry and songs about him whilst sitting in a community centre (not masjid) with no care for salah/QuranEtc (anything islamic) Would he then round it off by chest beating and a blood bath of self flagellation concluding in a massive rice party with the name of other than all being used on the food? oh I forgot to add, maybe pray salah if you can fit it in. Not too important though.  

if he wouldn’t be in such gatherings you’ll find your answer 

We're still waiting 

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1 hour ago, Oskar said:

Imam Ali named his children abu bakr and Omar

And Usman as well.

These were common names back then plus AbuBakr wasn't a name, its like Abu Turab. Today we might use some as names but back then, these weren't names lol.

As for Umar and Usman, many companions had such names. Thus it doesn't prove anything.

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2 hours ago, Oskar said:

He also said imam Ali (عليه السلام) gave his daughter to abu bakr, why did he do this?

This is false.

She was Umme Kulthum Bint Abi Bakr who moved to house of Ali (عليه السلام) after AbuBakr died along with Muhammad bin Abi Bakr.

Authentic narrations have no mention of "bint e Ali" thus it proves nothing.

Plus She was Syeda and can't marry any non Syed.

In Sunan e Nisai: Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) denied Abu Bakr and Umars proposal for marriage with Syeda Fatimah S.A and said she is too young. (GRADED: SAHIH)

Does that make sense that Ali would allow then to marry Fatimah S.A s daughter?

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2 hours ago, Oskar said:

3. Imam Ali was against sighah and building shrines but our Rohanis do the opposite, also any opinions about the shrines that have been built although I have to say they are beautiful even if this is true.

How about those of AbuBakr And Umar? 

They are Buried along with Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in big shrine means those three were shia? LOOOOL thats funniest argument i have ever seen xD

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The framing of this question presupposes that the Sunni is the true followers of the Sunnah of the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the Shia is a deviation from the Sunnah of the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). This is of cause is not the case. It is just playing with words falsely associating the word  "Sunni" with "the Sunnah of the prophet." We Shia believe that we follow the true Sunnah of the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) preserved by the Ahlulbayt(عليه السلام) and Imam Ali(عليه السلام) in particular.
It doesn't make sense to ask if Imam Ali(عليه السلام) was Sunni or Shia as the Shia is the party of Ali. Was Imam Ali(عليه السلام) a member of his own party - a follower of him self? I think we believe that he was a follower of Allah and the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

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3 hours ago, Oskar said:

Imam Ali says that he prays 5 times like Sunnis but we only pray 3 (he says he said it in nahjul balagha)

You are not forced to pray 3 times a day,infact its better if we pray 5 times a day but there's nothing wrong with 3 times a day and we  pray 3 times a day  because prophet Muhammad((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) also combined his prayer when he was at madinah and when asked why he did that,he said because he didnt want hardship for his ummah and you can even find this in sahih sunni hadith

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5 hours ago, Oskar said:

1. Imam Ali named his children abu bakr and Omar 

2. Imam Ali says that he prays 5 times like Sunnis but we only pray 3 (he says he said it in nahjul balagha)

3. Imam Ali was against sighah and building shrines but our Rohanis do the opposite, also any opinions about the shrines that have been built although I have to say they are beautiful even if this is true.

4. He also said imam Ali (عليه السلام) gave his daughter to abu bakr, why did he do this?

Salam 

  1. this issue explained many times that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) named one his sons as Utman because of his love toward Uthman b. Maz'un http://en.wikishia.net/view/'Uthman_b._Maz'un & other titles like Abubakr used by people like second caliph for his son as his traditon of changing names & titles of people by force in name of erasing names & titles of ignorance  time .
  2. we pray 5 times but we can pray in three frames or five separate  time that there is not any obligation  about just following one of theses procedures.
  3. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was first person that criticized banning of Sigheh by second caliph but like other innovations of second caliph he had to be neutral about his innovations because majority of people blindly were following  innovations of three caliph .
  4. This is a new story by such speakers that only said that Imam gave his daughter to Umar that these speakers are replacing Abubakr instead of Umar because their false stories many times refuted by Shia scholars  so now they are replacing stories about Umar with stories about Abubakr that has more positive  background  than Umar even I saw a video that one of theses speakers used name of Abubakr instead of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in a famous story about caring orphans by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) . http://en.wikishia.net/view/Marriage_of_Umm_Kulthum_with_'Umar_b._al-Khattab
Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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Salam Alykum 

1. Muhammad (others say his first name was Abdullah) Ibn Abu Bakr was the son of Abu Bakr the first caliphe. His mother Asma Bint Umays was formally married to Imam Ali's oldest brother Jafer Ibn Abu Talib, however, when he passed away in the battle of Mu'tah, Asma married Abu Bakr and conceived Muhammad Ibn Abu Bakr. When Abu Bakr passed away, Asma married Imam Ali, and in result Imam Ali adopted Muhammad Ibn Abu Bakr. He is referred to as Abu Bakr because of his kunya. Muhammad later died in Karbala , may Allah bless his soul. 

Also, logically speaking, so what if he named his son Omar, Abu Bakr, Uthman, of even Aisha? Do we stop naming our child Omar because we don't agree with something these personalities did in the past? The've been many Muhammads who've done horrible things in the past ( Not prophet Muhammad ), so do we stop naming our children Muhammad because of a few bad apples? How ignorant do you have to be to make a claim that because Imam Ali named his son Omar, it somehow connects a positive association to Umar Ibn-Khatteb... I mean there were sooo many Umar's living in Imam Ali's time, and Umar Ibn-Katteb was not the first Umar in history LOL...... ugh this annoys me... And hypothetically if Imam Ali did like Umar Ibn-Khatteb, I think all of that went away real quick after the great Umar kicked down his door..... 

2. Praying at the correct times in recommended, meaning pray fajr at its time, pray dhur at its time, pray asr at its time and so forth. However, in compliance with the sunnah, the Quran, and our Imams. We have the blessing of combining our prayers to make it easier on us, and because Islam is not made to be a burden on its followers. If I combine my prayers, it does NOT mean I do not pray 5 times a day, because last time I checked I complete my Dhur, and then begin a new 4 ra'kat prayer called Asr. Yes, it's recommend to pray the prayers at its prescribed times, but we can also combine them for easiness in our busy lives. 

3. This is a Wahhabi view, there is nothing wrong with visiting the graves of Prophets/Imams for ziyarat... the prophet himself would visit graves, and reflect. 

4. It is narrated by Imam Jafer as Sadiq in Al-Kafi "

When Umar came to make the marriage proposal, the Commander of the Faithful, Ali ((عليه السلام).) told him: She is a young girl.

Thereupon, Umar met Abbas and told him: What is wrong with me? Do I have any defect?‖

Abbas said: Why are you saying that?

Umar said: ―I asked your nephew for his daughter‘s hand in marriage, but he has turned me down. I swear by Allah! I will fill the well of Zamzam with earth, I will destroy every honor that you have, and I will set up two witnesses to testify that he stole, that I may cut off his right hand.‘ Abbas thereupon came to Ali and informed him of what had transpired. He asked Ali to put the matter in his hands, and Ali complied" 

Al-Kafi - V 5 p 346 

Long story short, Umm Kulthum was the youngest daughter of Imam Ali, she was roughly 10 to 11 years old, and Imam Ali DID NOT willingly give her daughter to Uthman who at the time was around 55 to 58... Imam Ali would always tell Uthman she was too young, but Uthman wanted to marry her due to her lineage with the prophet. Uthman practically begged Imam Ali to give his daughter in marriage to him... that's pretty much a summary of it LOL. 

 

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8 hours ago, Oskar said:

Salam 

i was watching a tv show I’m gonna stop watching Sunnis show trying to argue  shia into become like them,  every time I come into shichat I get more knowledge and their reasons feel more foolish but anyways this I couldnt figure out 

Anyways here are his reasons for imam Ali (عليه السلام) being Sunni 

1. Imam Ali named his children abu bakr and Omar 

2. Imam Ali says that he prays 5 times like Sunnis but we only pray 3 (he says he said it in nahjul balagha)

3. Imam Ali was against sighah and building shrines but our Rohanis do the opposite, also any opinions about the shrines that have been built although I have to say they are beautiful even if this is true.

4. He also said imam Ali (عليه السلام) gave his daughter to abu bakr, why did he do this?

Imam Ali was neither. Shia are those who accept Imam Ali as the successor of the Prophet and a inffalible authority.

As for your points.

1) I might name my children Abu bakar/ Umar that doesn't stop me being a Shia.

2) Zaidi are also Shia and pray 5 times day. And 12er scholars also say it's better to pray 5 seperatly if you can.

3) The refferance of flattening graves is a single narration I believe and not found in Shia text. Also Zaidi are considered very close to Sunni and our scholar say there nothing against building shrines. Sunni Brelwi etc also build shrines.

Zaidi are Shia and also are against mutah. So that view doesn't make you "Sunni"

4) I don't know if he gave his daughter to Abu Bakar. But I have heard he gave in marriage to Uthman. If a muslim asks for a hand in marriage unless you have good reason to say no you should give it. Imam Ali follows Islam as revealed by the Prophet. There would be no reason to say no to such a marriage. Unless the person is a open sinner or non believer, or you fear for your daughter in such a marriage etc.

Finally these are not matters of beleif so have no bearing on theology and Imamat.

It's like me saying Maliki pray with hands  down and are therefore Shia.

Edited by Warilla

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Guest Pschological Warfare
8 hours ago, UndercoverBrother said:

The way I think about it is like this. Would Imam Ali (عليه السلام) if alive today listen to poetry and songs about him whilst sitting in a community centre (not masjid) with no care for salah/QuranEtc (anything islamic) Would he then round it off by chest beating and a blood bath of self flagellation concluding in a massive rice party with the name of other than all being used on the food? oh I forgot to add, maybe pray salah if you can fit it in. Not too important though. 

if he wouldn’t be in such gatherings you’ll find your answer 

 

Here, may be the Hawza you attended did't educate you on

Quote

mam Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) said to Fudhail:

قال الصادق (ع) للفضيل

تجلِسون وتُحدِّثون قُلت نعم قال تِلك المجالس أحِبُها فأحيُوا أمرنا رحِم الله مَن أحيا أمرنا

Do you sit together, talk and discuss amongst yourselves? Fudhail replied: Yes. The Imam then said: I approve of these sittings. So keep our `issue' (Imamate) alive. May Allah exhibit mercy on those who revive our issue and mission!

Wasail al‑Shiah , vol. 10, pg. 391.

We understand how dangerous it is for the Shia's  to hear this and be in this "setting"/"environment" for your gameplan. 

https://youtu.be/kSXO_GhcyL8

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12 hours ago, Oskar said:

Salam 

i was watching a tv show I’m gonna stop watching Sunnis show trying to argue  shia into become like them,  every time I come into shichat I get more knowledge and their reasons feel more foolish but anyways this I couldnt figure out 

Anyways here are his reasons for imam Ali (عليه السلام) being Sunni 

1. Imam Ali named his children abu bakr and Omar 

2. Imam Ali says that he prays 5 times like Sunnis but we only pray 3 (he says he said it in nahjul balagha)

3. Imam Ali was against sighah and building shrines but our Rohanis do the opposite, also any opinions about the shrines that have been built although I have to say they are beautiful even if this is true.

4. He also said imam Ali (عليه السلام) gave his daughter to abu bakr, why did he do this?

None of this has anything to do with Shi'a fiqh or aqaid, except the claim that the Imam (عليه السلام) was against mut'ah.  For this claim I see no references or justification. 

 

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12 hours ago, UndercoverBrother said:

The way I think about it is like this. Would Imam Ali (عليه السلام) if alive today listen to poetry and songs about him whilst sitting in a community centre (not masjid) with no care for salah/QuranEtc (anything islamic) Would he then round it off by chest beating and a blood bath of self flagellation concluding in a massive rice party with the name of other than all being used on the food? oh I forgot to add, maybe pray salah if you can fit it in. Not too important though. 

if he wouldn’t be in such gatherings you’ll find your answer 

What has this got to do with Shi'a fiqh and aqeedah? 

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4 hours ago, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

 

Here, may be the Hawza you attended did't educate you on

We understand how dangerous it is for the Shia's  to hear this and be in this "setting"/"environment" for your gameplan. 

https://youtu.be/kSXO_GhcyL8

Reviving the issue and the mission of the aimmah is indeed a blessed act but unfortunately becoming a rarity in some of our communities. 

The critique of the brother was valid but it applies to certain communities and not to the core beliefs and jurisprudence of Shiism. 

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On 5/26/2020 at 9:34 AM, Warilla said:

 

3) The refferance of flattening graves is a single narration I believe and not found in Shia text. Also Zaidi are considered very close to Sunni and our scholar say there nothing against building shrines. Sunni Brelwi etc also build shrines..

This was incorrect on my part. The hadith against building on graves and the hadith of Imam Ali flattening graves exist in both Sunni and Shia sources (including 12er.)

I don't believe there are any hadith which encourage building in graves.

So I'm unsure how it's justified.

 

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