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Oskar

Imamate after imam jafar (as)

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Salam

( I know this topic has been mentioned here before bit I haven’t got a convincing answer)

I was reading this and it’s mentioned in our books that Ismail imam jaffars son was appointed by him, this contradicts the Jafari school of thought someone’s bring me proof and hadiths 

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13 minutes ago, realizm said:

:salam:

If you want 12er sources then of course they will discredit imamat of Ismail.

Yes that’s correct but based on which hadiths when are own hadiths are stating that he appointed his son Ismail as imam?   

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And also does anyone why the imams has Sunnis as students sometimes like imam jaffar a Sunni I know is claiming that some Jew made up Imamate and that the imama weren’t even aware of this, how can I convince him that this is not true?

 

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Their are Hadiths in sunni sources that their will be twelve Caliphs, the Ismailis have over 12 Caliphs, the Sunni’s dont agree with each who are the 12 Caliphs each of them contradict each other although they accept the Hadith as matawatir, us shia jafari are only ones who meet the criteria of the twelve Caliph Hadiths and all the Ayatollah’s are in agreement on who are these twelve Caliphs. Look in the book of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Moses had the twelve tribes, Jesus had the twelve disciples, Abraham had the Imamate started from His through isaac then later on through Ismail through Muhammad (sawaws) 

 

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On 5/25/2020 at 8:25 PM, Oskar said:

I meant I want proof that 12ers thought is correct and not Ismaili and several hadiths I would be very thankful

The following links may be informative:

http://alhassanain.org/english/?com=content&id=89

https://www.al-islam.org/life-imam-musa-bin-jafar-al-kazim-baqir-shareef-al-qurashi

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010

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On 5/25/2020 at 9:03 PM, Oskar said:

And also does anyone why the imams has Sunnis as students sometimes like imam jaffar

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/students-of-imam-jafar/proving-teacher-student-relationship.html

 

On 5/25/2020 at 9:03 PM, Oskar said:

 Sunni I know is claiming that some Jew made up Imamate and that the imama weren’t even aware of this, how can I convince him that this is not true?

The following verse is sufficient to reject such false claim:

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He (2:124)

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On 5/26/2020 at 2:03 AM, Oskar said:

And also does anyone why the imams has Sunnis as students sometimes like imam jaffar a Sunni I know is claiming that some Jew made up Imamate and that the imama weren’t even aware of this, how can I convince him that this is not true?

 

They will give you hadiths from their books to prove this [Edited Out].

And mix up with 20% twelver sources.

Dont get deceived. If they give you hadiths from their books, make sure you insult them well for this.

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5 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

They will give you hadiths from their books to prove this [Edited Out].

And mix up with 20% twelver sources.

Dont get deceived. If they give you hadiths from their books, make sure you insult them well for this.

Salam please check 

نام کتاب : رجال الطوسي - ط جماعة المدرسين

Page 175, (I wasn’t able to download it)

 

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Their are Hadiths in sunni sources that their will be twelve Caliphs, the Ismailis have over 12 Caliphs, the Sunni’s dont agree with each who are the 12 Caliphs each of them contradict each other although they accept the Hadith as matawatir, us shia jafari are only ones who meet the criteria of the twelve Caliph Hadiths and all the Ayatollah’s are in agreement on who are these twelve Caliphs. Look in the book of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Moses had the twelve tribes, Jesus had the twelve disciples, Abraham had the Imamate started from His through isaac then later on through Ismail through Muhammad (sawaws) 

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17 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

image.thumb.png.af16ba924b88a52beda41433db34989b.pngimage.thumb.png.459b149998e5bd847e94515fd0421009.png

I don't see any narration of page 175

Oh this sunni brother was lying in that case....... or this is the name of the narrators because i only see names here

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Guest CuriousCat

Salam OP, 

Before writing anything let me say that I am not a scholar but I am a seeker of the truth trying to avoid rhetoric and polemics. This is simply my understanding. Allah knows best. 

Based upon my understanding, most Twelver sources agree that Imam As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) gave nass (designation) to Ismail (عليه السلام) during his lifetime (Al-Qummi, Al-Nawbakhti) and did not give any other designation (Rijāl al-Kashshi 154). Contemporary Sunni sources say the same. Ismaili sources obviously say the same. 

The importance of nass is, I believe, most expounded upon in the traditions of Al-Baqir (عليه السلام) but the key point is the doctrine of infallibility of the imam i.e. can the imam have designated to a line that would disappear, not only in general, but within his lifetime?. Al-Kulayni [d. 941], Usūl al-Kāfi Vol. 1, p. 277 shows the importance of nass. 

The denial of this nass does appear in certain Twelver works as well as the changing of this nass to designate Musa (عليه السلام). Dealing with the "error" of the nass for Ismail (عليه السلام) relies on a chain of Twelver narration suggesting Bada'a. I will not attempt to delve into the logic of this but here are some references:  Kitab al-Tawhid, 336; Kamal al-Dīn, 1:69; Majlisi Bihar al-Anwār, 4:109.

There are several other clearly polemical denials of the nass of Ismail (عليه السلام) that I will ignore here. 

Most sources cite the death of Ismail (عليه السلام) before the death of As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) yet there are some that suggest that Ismail (عليه السلام) was seen after the death of As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) and that perhaps the elaborate witnessing that Imam As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) requested (he had all of the visitors sign testimonies to the death of Ismail (عليه السلام) so that this could be proven to the Abbasid caliph - al-Mufid, Kitab al-Irshad, 431; Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, 47:254) was to create sufficient divergence for Ismail (عليه السلام) to be able to escape persecution at the hands of the Abbasid empire (Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar 47:270; Al-Mazandaran, Al-Manaqib 1:267; As-Saduq, Kamal al-Din 1:70).  

The divergence is a function of what happened after the death of As-Sadiq (عليه السلام). There are narrations that suggest that all 3 of his living sons (Musa, Muhammad ibn Jafar, Abdullah) claimed Imamat following his death and there were factions that believed in all 3 of these. There were yet other factions that believed that As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) did not die and would return, others that believed that Ismail (عليه السلام) did not die and would return and others that followed Muhammad ibn Ismail (عليه السلام) and yet others that believed that Muhammad ibn Ismail (عليه السلام) would be the Qaim.

As for the references to 12 Khalifs in narrations, these seem to be principally a Sunni narration and there only seems to be an introduction into Shia thought after the ghayba of the 12th imam. Pre-occultation traditions had a different numbering e.g. Al-‘Usul as-Sitta ‘Ashr, Asl of Muhammad ibn al-Muthanna al-Hadrami, 90-91.

Again, this is simply my understanding. I mean no offense to anyone by this. Allah knows best.

Salam.     

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Salam OP,

Firstly, let me say that I am not a scholar but also a seeker of the Truth. I mean no offence to anyone. Everything below is simply my understanding, may Allah forgive me in my errors. Allah knows best.

I am going to try to break down my understanding of this situation into multiple points. 

1. Did Imam As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) give Nass (I'm not discussing it here but Nass has more significance than "designation", see: Usūl al-Kāfi Vol. 1, p. 277) to Ismail (عليه السلام)? I believe that the overwhelming majority of traditions (Twelver, Ismaili, Sunni) and scholarship state that Imam As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) gave Nass to Ismail (عليه السلام). This is in fact confirmed in Twelver tradition by Al-Hadi (عليه السلام). Some references here: al-Nawbhakti, Firaq al-Shi‘ah, 78-79; al-Qummi , (Kitab al-maqālat wa’l-firaq, ed. Muhammad J. Mashkur, Tehran, 1963, 78)

2. Did Ismail (عليه السلام) die before As-Sadiq (عليه السلام)? The majority of scholarship leans towards Ismail (عليه السلام) having died before As-Sadiq (AS); however, the elaborate witnessing that As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) required of people attending the funeral (see: Kitab al-Irshad, 431; Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, 47:254) have suggested to the some that the funeral of Ismail (عليه السلام) may have been staged to be able to save his designated successor from persecution at the hands of the Abbasids whose spies attended the funeral. There are further reports of Ismail (عليه السلام) being seen after the funeral (see: Bihar al-Anwar 47:270; As-Saduq, Kamal al-Din 1:70). 

For the sake of this logical argument, let us take it for granted that Ismail (عليه السلام) died before As-Sadiq (عليه السلام). 

3. What happened after the death of Imam As-Sadiq (عليه السلام)? According to scholarship, all 3 remaining sons of As-Sadiq (عليه السلام), Abdullah, Muhammad ibn Jafar, Musa (عليه السلام), claimed the Imamate. Additionally, others believed that Ismail (عليه السلام) would return to take his Imamate. Obviously, there was no Nass given other than to Ismail and so this resulted in confusion. See: Rijāl al-Kashshi 154. 

Obviously, the Twelver view is that Musa (عليه السلام) was given a second Nass but this relies on arguments of Bada'a. See for example: Majlisi Bihar al-Anwār, 4:109.

There was yet another group who believe that Ismail (عليه السلام) had given Nass to his son, Muhammad ibn Ismail (عليه السلام), during his own lifetime i.e. during the lifetime of both As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) and Ismail (عليه السلام).

I will try to analyse the support that the Twelvers and the Ismailis use below.   

4. What does the Ismaili perspective rely upon? The principal of the Imam (in this case As-Sadiq (AS)) being Infallible and therefore the Nass being Infallible. Whether or not Ismail (عليه السلام) died during the lifetime of As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) the Imamate would pass in the line of Ismail (عليه السلام) and they believe that he had designated Muhammad ibn Ismail (عليه السلام). The Ismailis view Musa (عليه السلام) and his line as the Hijab which allowed the line of Imamte passing through Ismail (عليه السلام) to escape persecution. 

5. What does the Twelver perspective rely upon? As outlined above, there is the argument of Bada'a. Personally, I tend to dismiss this as it does not follow any logic (see: As-Saduq, Kamal al-Dīn, 69). The more typical argument is one that rests on the Sunni traditions of Twelve Khulafaa but this seems to only have come in to Twelver Shi'i thought after the Ghayba. It is not clear where these traditions originate and there were previous traditions from As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) suggesting a different pattern with 7 Awsiya and 11 Mahdi (See: Al-‘Usul as-Sitta ‘Ashr, Asl of Muhammad ibn al-Muthanna al-Hadrami, 90-91).

I have not conclusively answered the question but I have tried to lay out my understanding. Again, may Allah forgive me in my errors. Allah knows best.

Salam        

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On 6/1/2020 at 12:43 AM, Guest CuriousCat said:

Based upon my understanding, most Twelver sources agree that Imam As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) gave nass (designation) to Ismail (عليه السلام) during his lifetime (Al-Qummi, Al-Nawbakhti) and did not give any other designation (Rijāl al-Kashshi 154). Contemporary Sunni sources say the same. Ismaili sources obviously say the same. 

Salam it's a wrong interpretation but Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) stated that Ismail (رضي الله عنه) had qualifications  for being an Imam & if it was his choice he would  choose him as Imam but choosing iMam Musa Kadhim (عليه السلام)was Allah also Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) choose (gave Nass) Abbasid king the Mansur  as one his successors because Mansur Abbasi ordered his henchmen to arrest & kill any successor of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) so when he understood  that he is one of successors then he had to cancel his order but choosing  him as successor didn't  make him an Imam also there is some narrations  that Ismail (رضي الله عنه) will back on Raj'a to prove that Ismaili claim is wrong.

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Abu Basir asked Imam Musa ibn Ja'far (as): "By what signs is Imam known?" He said: "The true Imam has attributes, the first and most important of which is that the previous Imam introduced him. Just as the Messenger of God introduced Ali ibn Abi Talib (peace be upon him), every Imam must introduce the Imam after him. Another sign is that whatever they ask of him, he will answer and be aware of anything. "It's another sign that he will never be silent in defense of the right, that he will speak about future events, and that he will speak in all languages." Then he said, "Now I am giving you a sign that your heart will be assured." Meanwhile, a Khorasani man entered and began to speak Arabic, but the Imam replied in Persian. "I thought you didn't understand Persian," said the Khorasani man.The Imam said: “Glory be to God! "If I can't answer in your own language, then what virtue do I have for you?"Then he said: "The Imam is the one on whom no one's words are not hidden. He understands the words of every person and every living thing. "The Imam is known by these signs, and if he does not have these, he is not an Imam." [5]

[5] بحار الانوار، ج 48، ص 47 از قرب الاسناد.

Bihar Al Anwar , v 48 . p 47 from Qurb Al Asnad

 

Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) about mother of Imam Musm Kadhim (عليه السلام) said :Hameedeh, like pure gold, is pure from impurity. The angels protected him until he came to me, because of the honor that Allah bestowed on me and the proof after me. [1] " 

[۱] اصول کافی، ج 1 ص 477

Kafi , v1 , p 477

Quote

From the very first moment of his birth, Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) informed the Shiites about the Imamate of his son Musa and said: stick to my child , this born baby swear to Allah After me he is your owner. [2]  

فعلقوا بابنی هذا المولود...فهو والله صاحبکم من بعدی »

[2] محاسن برقی، ج 2، ص 314

Mahasin Barqi , v2 , p 314

Quote

Yaqub ibn Siraj says: "I went to the presence of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) and saw that the Imam was standing next to the cradle of his son Musa and his son was in the cradle. Imam told him [a] secret for a while. After his speech was over, I went closer. He said to me: Go to your master and say hello. I went to the cradle and greeted him. Musa ibn Ja'far (عليه السلام), who was in the middle of the cradle, answered my greetings with great eloquence and said: << go and change name of your daughter [Homeira] that you choose for her yesterday Because Allah does not like such a name. "I went and changed her name.">> [3]

[3] اصول کافی، ج 1، ص 310

Kafi , v 1 , p 310

http://www.masjed.ir/fa/news/27399/مقاله-ماجرای-وصیت-نامه-امام-صادق-ع-در-تعیین-وصی-خود

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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10 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

[5] بحار الانوار، ج 48، ص 47 از قرب الاسناد.

Bihar Al Anwar , v 48 . p 47 from Qurb Al Asnad

 

Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) about mother of Imam Musm Kadhim (عليه السلام) said :Hameedeh, like pure gold, is pure from impurity. The angels protected him until he came to me, because of the honor that Allah bestowed on me and the proof after me. [1] " 

[۱] اصول کافی، ج 1 ص 477

Kafi , v1 , p 477

Salam and thank you for your contribution. 

Personally, I find it difficult to accept conjecture as evidence as, similarly to the traditions you have relayed above, there are traditions of Fatima bint al-Hussain al-Athram bin al-Hasan bin Ali, the mother of Ismail (عليه السلام), being the only wife the Imam As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) took during her own lifetime (Kitab al-milal wa'l nihal). Obviously, one could also conclude that Ismail (عليه السلام) came from two sides of Ahl Al-Bayt and there are similarly many traditions relating that Ismail (عليه السلام) was the favourite son of As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) and was specially educated and was the head of the family when As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) was absent (Uyun'l-Akhbar). And of course, there are many similar traditions about Imam As-Sadiq (عليه السلام) indicting to his followers that Ismail (عليه السلام) was to be Imam after him (Asraru'n-Nutaqa). Indeed, there are also traditions about Ismail (عليه السلام) performing miraculous deeds as well. 

What an amazing history of Ahl Al-Bayt.

My view is really that this situation requires deductive reasoning: There are those who believe in the tradition of the 12 Khulafa and the justification of Ghayba and there are those that believe in other reasoning.

Allahu 'Alim. 

Salam   

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