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In the Name of God بسم الله

Who was the Imam before prophet Muhammed ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) )

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We know that, according to Shia doctrine, every prophet was an Imam, though every Imam was not a prophet. So, in this sense, Muhammed or Rasoul-E-Khuda ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) was an Imam before Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ). So, I want to be aware of the fact, who was the predecessor of pprophet Muhammed((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) or who was the Wali before prophetMuhammed ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) as the Shia claim that Allah didn’t deprive any generation from an Imam ( Leader ) or a Hujjah  ( proof.). Salaam             

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124,000 prophets, but we only know a fraction of that. From what we know nabi Isa (عليه السلام) was before the prophet but there could be some other prophets between the gap of Nabi Isa (عليه السلام) and Rasullulah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

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7 hours ago, آريان عالي ميشكن said:

We know that, according to Shia doctrine, every prophet was an Imam, though every Imam was not a prophet. So, in this sense, Muhammed or Rasoul-E-Khuda ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) was an Imam before Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ). So, I want to be aware of the fact, who was the predecessor of pprophet Muhammed((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) or who was the Wali before prophetMuhammed ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) as the Shia claim that Allah didn’t deprive any generation from an Imam ( Leader ) or a Hujjah  ( proof.). Salaam             

Shias are unable to prove the validity of this claim historically... the only proof they have is hadith and interpretation of Quran verses.

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27 minutes ago, power said:

Historical history is normally relied upon books is not?

what i mean outside of Islamic books...

for example if i wanted to learn world history in genreral, i'm not going to pick up Quran and Hadith books... 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

what i mean outside of Islamic books...

for example if i wanted to learn world history in genreral, i'm not going to pick up Quran and Hadith books... 

If i wanted to learn about the Prophets and previous Prophets, i wont pick up a science book, Quran and hadith would be the primary source.  

Edited by power
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4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Shias are unable to prove the validity of this claim historically... the only proof they have is hadith and interpretation of Quran verses.

Hazrat Yusheh ibn Noon was First Imam after Prophet Moses (عليه السلام) and this is written in our Tafaseer and hadith. 

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6 hours ago, آريان عالي ميشكن said:

We know that, according to Shia doctrine, every prophet was an Imam, though every Imam was not a prophet. So, in this sense, Muhammed or Rasoul-E-Khuda ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) was an Imam before Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ). So, I want to be aware of the fact, who was the predecessor of pprophet Muhammed((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) or who was the Wali before prophetMuhammed ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) as the Shia claim that Allah didn’t deprive any generation from an Imam ( Leader ) or a Hujjah  ( proof.). Salaam             

Hazrat Yusheh ibn Noon was Imam of Bani Israel after Prophet Moses (عليه السلام). Sometimes, it happened that a Prophet held both the positions of Prophethood and Imamate. For reference, refer to verse of Quran where Allah (عزّ وجلّ) declared prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) to be Imam after he ((عليه السلام)) was successful in his trial of sacrificing his son.

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2 hours ago, power said:

If i wanted to learn about the Prophets and previous Prophets, i wont pick up a science book, Quran and hadith would be the primary source.  

how is this different from what I have said, that it can only be proven from hadith and Quran... 

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2 hours ago, power said:

If i wanted to learn about the Prophets and previous Prophets, i wont pick up a science book, Quran and hadith would be the primary source.  

to state it better, we have "Aqli" vs "Naqli" sources .. naqli doesnt mean fake... it refers to beliefs we acquire from Quran and Hadith, because we have accept these as truth... 

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7 hours ago, آريان عالي ميشكن said:

We know that, according to Shia doctrine, every prophet was an Imam, though every Imam was not a prophet. So, in this sense, Muhammed or Rasoul-E-Khuda ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) was an Imam before Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ). So, I want to be aware of the fact, who was the predecessor of pprophet Muhammed((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) or who was the Wali before prophetMuhammed ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) as the Shia claim that Allah didn’t deprive any generation from an Imam ( Leader ) or a Hujjah  ( proof.). Salaam             

As a layman, I can only direct you to the water, you need to make an effort to get to it and drink it. Not getting into Literal/fiqhi/Scholarly definition of a Guide/Imam/Wali. Or the meaning or limited understanding that unless its known to people and Authority is actually exercised and establish Military/or opening administering state/community affairs explicitly. 

People work explicitly and implicitly based on the prevailing conditions and to safeguard the interest.Guide has different Directives in different times.  Abu Talib(عليه السلام) did everything to Protect the "Religion" of Allah(عزّ وجلّ). 

Conceptually, read and reflect on.

Quote
أَلَمْ تَرَ كَيْفَ فَعَلَ رَبُّكَ بِأَصْحَابِ الْفِيلِ {1}

[Pickthal 105:1] Hast thou not seen how thy Lord dealt with the owners of the Elephant?
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 105:1]

This surah refers to an incident in the history of Makka, as an example of how Allah deals with those who oppose His will. About fifty days before the birth of the Holy Prophet, Abraha, the Abyssinia's viceroy of Yemen, Christian by religion, proceeded against Makka, as the head of a large army, with the object of destroying the Ka-bah, because he wanted that there should be no place or structure more glorious than the church he was building at Sana. He had with him elephants. Therefore he and his army is known as ashab al fil, those who brought elephants. At the outskirts of Makka he captured a large number of camels belonging to the chief of Makka, Abd al Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet. After receiving the information that Abraha was coming to destroy the holy Ka-bah, Abd al Muttalib went to see him and said:

"I have come to collect my camels. The Ka-bah belongs to God. He will surely protect it from your evil design."

Abraha gave the captured camels to Abd al Muttalib He returned to the city and asked the people to retire to the neighbouring hills, leaving the Lord of Ka-bah to protect it. When Abraha entered Makka, suddenly a large flock of birds, like swallows, came flying from the sea-coast and pelted the invading army with pebbles of baked clay. They all died. They were like a dead and useless field from which all the produce is eaten up and only straw with stubble is left. Abraha escaped and went directly to the king in Abyssinia. All the way a bird with a stone in her beak followed him. When the king asked Abraha as to what kind of birds they were, Abraha looked to the sky and the bird at once dropped stone in her beak and killed him on the spot.

The lesson to be drawn is twofold. The pagans of Makka were forewarned that as the Holy Prophet was superior to the Ka-bah, Allah, who protects whatever is His own, shall protect him from all their evil schemes. It is also a warning to men in all ages that "if a man intoxicated with power comes out to defeat Allah's holy plan, he cannot prevail against Allah, but his plan will fail and destroy him as well."

Aqa Mahdi Puya says:

The event narrated in this surah is a miracle. It proves the sanctity of the Ka-bah and the strong faith of Abd al Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet, in Allah. When this chapter of the Quran was recited by the Holy Prophet before the Quraysh unbelievers no one raised any voice to belie him.

Refer to the commentary of chapters ad Duha and al Inshirah for the inter-relation of those two chapters and of al Fil and al Quraysh, the next chapter.

The faith of Abd al Muttalib in the oneness of Allah is proved by his following supplication:

O Lord, there is no hope (of receiving help from any quarter) to stop them (Abraha's army) save from You,

O Lord, therefore do not let them have Your protection because he who is the enemy of Your house is Your enemy,

Verily they (the enemies whoever they are) cannot defeat Your power.

&

Quote

وَيَقُولُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَوْلَا أُنْزِلَ عَلَيْهِ آيَةٌ مِنْ رَبِّهِ ۗ إِنَّمَا أَنْتَ مُنْذِرٌ ۖ وَلِكُلِّ قَوْمٍ هَادٍ {7}

[Pickthal 13:7] Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide.

&

Quote

H 431, Ch. 5, h 4 Ahmad ibn Mihran has narrated from Muhammad ibn Ali from al-Husayn ibn abu ‘Ala’ from abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following. "Can the earth be without Imam?" The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "No, it can be without Imam."

H 432, Ch. 5, h 5 Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Yunus ibn Muskan from abu Basir from one of them (Imams ((عليه السلام).), who has said the following "Allah does not leave the earth without a ‘Alim (scholar). Without this the truth would not be distinguished from falsehood."

H 433, Ch. 5, h 6 Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa‘id from al-Qasim ibn Muhammad from Ali ibn abu Hamza from abu Basir from abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following "Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is far greater and above leaving the earth without an Imam of justice."

H 434, Ch. 5, h 7 Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from al-Hassan ibn Mahbub from abu ’Usama and Ali ibn Ibrahim from his father from al-Hassan ibn Mahbub from abu ’Usama and Hisham ibn salim from abu Hamza from abu Ishaq from those reliable among the companions of Amir al-Mu’minin ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following. "O Lord. You do not leave your earth without a person who would represent Your authority among the people."

H 435, Ch. 5, h 8 Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Muhammad ibn alFudayl from abu Hamza from abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following. "I swear to Allah that He has not, from the day Adam died, left the earth without an Imam who would guide people to the Lord as with divine authority over the servants of the Lord. The earth will never remain without an Imam with Divine authority over His servants."

H 436, Ch. 5, h 9 Al-Hassan ibn Muhammad has narrated from Muhammad ibn Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from some of our people from abu Ali ibn Rashid from abu al-Hassan ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following. " The earth is never without a person with divine authority and I swear to Allah that I am the person with Divine authority."

H 437, Ch. 5, h 10 Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from al-Fudayl from ibn abu Hamza who has said the following. "I asked abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).), ‘Can the earth be left without the Imam?’" The Imam ((عليه السلام).) replied, " Were to remain without Imam it would obliterate its inhabitants."

H 438, Ch. 5, h 11 Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘isa from Muhammad al-Fudayl who has said the following. "I asked abu al-Hassan al-Rida ((عليه السلام).), ‘Can the remain without Imam?’" He replied, "No, it will not remain so." I then said, "We narrate from Imam abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) that the earth will not remain without Imam unless Allah becomes extremely angry with the people of the earth or with His servants." The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, "In such condition it will not remain but it would obliterate with its inhabitants."

H 439, Ch. 5, h 12 Ali has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from abu ‘Abd al_Mu’min from abu Harassa from abu Ja'far ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following. "Would the Imam be taken away from the earth it will create waves against her inhabitants just like what the inhabitants of the ocean face."

H 440, Ch. 5, h 13 Al-Husayn ibn Ali has narrated from Muhammad from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from alWashsha’ who has said the following. "I asked al-Hassan al-Rida ((عليه السلام).), "I can the earth remain without Imam?" The Imam ((عليه السلام).) replied, "No, it will not remain so." I said, "We narrate that it will not remain without the Imam unless Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, becomes angry with the people." The Imam said, "In such condition it will not remain but it will obliterate its inhabitants."

https://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Al-Kafi.pdf

____________________________

For those who do not believe in the Islam. Its prudent for your first inquire into and Fundamentals of Religion. 

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Posted (edited)

:bismillah:

9 hours ago, آريان عالي ميشكن said:

We know that, according to Shia doctrine, every prophet was an Imam, though every Imam was not a prophet. So, in this sense, Muhammed or Rasoul-E-Khuda ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) was an Imam before Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ). So, I want to be aware of the fact, who was the predecessor of pprophet Muhammed((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) or who was the Wali before prophetMuhammed ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) as the Shia claim that Allah didn’t deprive any generation from an Imam ( Leader ) or a Hujjah  ( proof.). Salaam             

Alaikom Salam, very, very essential question may Allah Bless you, for this core question of Islam. Every Prophet was not an Imam... There is Nabi and there is Rasoul. All Rasouls are Nabi but all Nabis are not Rasoul. The Position of Imamat is Higher than both so all Rasouls are not Imam and all Imams are not Rasoul because ex. Imam Ali was not Rasoul but was Imam. 

Question: why did Prophet Mosa Peace upon Him wanted Khidr has His teacher in His old age and failed and departed away from Prophet Khidr Peace upon Him? Did Prophet Mosa Peace upon Him wanted to learn knowledge quantity wise from him or the issue was quality wise! Prophet Mosa was Kalimullah but still went to Him!

Prophet Ibrahim Peace upon Him got the position of Imamat in His old age, question here is, did Prophet Ismail Peace upon Him also become an Imam or not after all he was also involved in the test and was victorious. How about Prophet Isa Peace upon Him could he have reach the state of Imamat? If so how to artistically extract facts on this issue from the Holy Quran Verses or or ahadith sources.

How about Prophet Adam and Idris and Elias Peace upon them.

Edited by Ali.Isa
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2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

to state it better, we have "Aqli" vs "Naqli" sources .. naqli doesnt mean fake... it refers to beliefs we acquire from Quran and Hadith, because we have accept these as truth... 

Not entirely sure what point you are making now, however, you made a claim saying:

Shias are unable to prove the validity of this claim historically... the only proof they have is hadith and interpretation of Quran verses.

Then you said:

what i mean outside of Islamic books...

for example if i wanted to learn world history in genreral, i'm not going to pick up Quran and Hadith books... 

Conclusion to your asserted claim is:  With the absent of independent source the claim is not valid. 

But now it appears you are doing a U Turn i think.

 
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Just now, power said:

Not entirely sure what point you are making now, however, you made a claim saying:

Shias are unable to prove the validity of this claim historically... the only proof they have is hadith and interpretation of Quran verses.

Then you said:

what i mean outside of Islamic books...

for example if i wanted to learn world history in genreral, i'm not going to pick up Quran and Hadith books... 

Conclusion to your asserted claim is:  With the absent of independent source the claim is not valid. 

But now it appears you are doing a U Turn i think.

 
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with the absence of an independent source, it is left to the believer and how much faith they have, much like faith in other things like heaven hell etc. i don't think heaven hell can be verified independently either...

why is this confusing? because im doubting these claims?

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30 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

with the absence of an independent source, it is left to the believer and how much faith they have, much like faith in other things like heaven hell etc. i don't think heaven hell can be verified independently either...

why is this confusing? because im doubting these claims?

It is evidently obvious you have doubts. But anyway for a believer primary source will always have precedent  than any secondary source. 

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41 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

with the absence of an independent source, it is left to the believer and how much faith they have, much like faith in other things like heaven hell etc. i don't think heaven hell can be verified independently either...

why is this confusing? because im doubting these claims?

With this notion of thinking you can dismiss entire Sunni and Ibadi corpus as well. You can dismiss most religions relying only on secondary, non-religious sources. For example, there’s hardly any proof for the existence of Nabi Isa (عليه السلام), except the Bible and the Quran. Same thing with the Buddha and so on. Being a rationalist on a religious forum is either a provocation or a way to waste time. From the threads that you create, it clearly shows that you accepted rationalism over any religious understanding. Sooner or later, most likely, you will become an atheist. 

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10 hours ago, آريان عالي ميشكن said:

We know that, according to Shia doctrine, every prophet was an Imam, though every Imam was not a prophet. So, in this sense, Muhammed or Rasoul-E-Khuda ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) was an Imam before Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ). So, I want to be aware of the fact, who was the predecessor of pprophet Muhammed((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) or who was the Wali before prophetMuhammed ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) as the Shia claim that Allah didn’t deprive any generation from an Imam ( Leader ) or a Hujjah  ( proof.). Salaam             

Walaykum as Salam, 

Imam al-Kadhem (عليه السلام) has explained, there are two types of Proofs (Hujjah); the manifested proof (Hujjah Dhahera) and the latent proof (Hujjah Batena). The manifested proof is represented by the prophets, messengers, and Imams. And the latent proof is represented by the intellect (‘Aql) which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed to humans so that they can discern and differentiate between truth from falsehood.

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13 hours ago, آريان عالي ميشكن said:

We know that, according to Shia doctrine, every prophet was an Imam, though every Imam was not a prophet. So, in this sense, Muhammed or Rasoul-E-Khuda ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) was an Imam before Imam Ali Ibn Abu Talib ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ). So, I want to be aware of the fact, who was the predecessor of pprophet Muhammed((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) or who was the Wali before prophetMuhammed ( (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ) as the Shia claim that Allah didn’t deprive any generation from an Imam ( Leader ) or a Hujjah  ( proof.). Salaam             

Allah (عزّ وجلّ) chooses as vicegerents either a prophet or Imam. Quran records names of Hazrat Talut (عليه السلام), Hazrat Luqman a s, Hazrat Khizr a s  Hazrat Asif Barkhiya (عليه السلام) and Hazrat Zulqarnain (عليه السلام). All were not prophets but leaders. Imams are leaders as well which mean those who lead way. 

In Quran, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says we either replace a sign with better one or at least bring similar. If we know that all above were not prophets then what other entitlement remains for them which is mentioned in Quran and which says leader. 

Quran says:"We will raise every nation with its Imam". So, those great leaders were Imams and if you don't accept this then you should accept that the verse is true. Thus, if Quran mentions:"Every nation will rise with its Imam". Then there must be an Imam in every age.

@khamosh21 addressing you as well. My last answer Salam and Eid mubarak all.

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15 hours ago, Ali Abbas Rizvi said:

124,000 prophets, but we only know a fraction of that. From what we know nabi Isa (عليه السلام) was before the prophet but there could be some other prophets between the gap of Nabi Isa (عليه السلام) and Rasullulah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

Our prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) came after long time passed between him and Isa (عليه السلام)

Sahih International: O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent. 5:19

Pickthall: O People of the Scripture! Now hath Our messenger come unto you to make things plain unto you after an interval (of cessation) of the messengers, lest ye should say: There came not unto us a messenger of cheer nor any warner. Now hath a messenger of cheer and a warner come unto you. Allah is Able to do all things.5:19

Yusuf Ali: O People of the Book! Now hath come unto you, making (things) clear unto you, Our Messenger, after the break in (the series of) our messengers, lest ye should say: "There came unto us no bringer of glad tidings and no warner (from evil)": But now hath come unto you a bringer of glad tidings and a warner (from evil). And Allah hath power over all things.5:19

Shakir: O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) messengers, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, so indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things.5:19

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19 hours ago, power said:

It is evidently obvious you have doubts. But anyway for a believer primary source will always have precedent  than any secondary source. 

Fair enough. However believers do use secondary sources to prove their primary, for example science is used to demonstrate scientific miracles of the Quran.

Can history be used to prove historical claims... maybe, however considering OP's question, I don't think secondary sources can be used. That's all I was stating, don't know why I'm getting chewed up for stating the obvious.

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O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you [the religion] after a period [of suspension] of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us any bringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringer of good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.

5:19

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