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In the Name of God بسم الله

does/can islamic socialism work

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I was a socialist before I revereted. I've heard of islamic socialism and and am interested if it works. whats the difference between islamic socialism standard socialism and a traditional islamic system. I don't know much about how islamic government works but I want to. I may leave supporting socialism for a more traditional islamic system.

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Salam as  Iranians we don't have good memory  from mixing Islam with any ***ism that last mixing of a ***ism with it leads to creation a monster that we call it MKO terrorists.

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1 minute ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam as  Iranians we don't have good memory  from mixing Islam with any ***ism that last mixing of a ***ism with it leads to creation a monster that we call it MKO terrorists.

Salam, I'm sorry to hear that

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On 5/23/2020 at 9:50 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam as  Iranians we don't have good memory  from mixing Islam with any ***ism that last mixing of a ***ism with it leads to creation a monster that we call it MKO terrorists.

@Ashvazdanghe

The MKO claimed to practice “Islamic Marxism,” which is itself an oxymoron. Marxism is strictly secularist and materialist in outlook, as opposed to the holistic view of Islam. Therefore, while one is free to oppose Marxian socialism, I would not label the MKO as a Marxist organisation, much less a Soviet-style Marxist-Leninist one. The MKO never admired the USSR and was actually quite anticommunist (anti-Stalinist, that is) in this sense. The MKO drew more on anti-Stalinist postmodernism and Trotskyism and was/is essentially a paramilitary mind-control cult. It should also be mentioned that the Western-trained SAVAK created the MKO to stage false-flag bombings and blame pro-Soviet communists (Tudeh) and anti-Shah clerics.

The Soviets were very wary of the MKO and only loosely used it as a hedge against the IRI’s involvement in supporting factions of the Afghan mujahideen. Even then, the Soviets were careful not to totally antagonise the leadership of the IRI, even during the height of the Iran–Iraq war, since historically the West promoted/installed Saddam’s Iraqi Baathist faction to crush the pro-Soviet Iraqi communists. Most of the aid for Saddam during the Iran–Iraq war came from the West and its clients, including Israel, rather than from the Soviets. Iraq imported most of its WMD, heavy (conventional) weaponry, and technical specialists from the West. Another thing: the MKO’s war on unarmed civilians is historically a fascist tactic, not a Marxist one.

In short, the MKO should be best deemed a far-right, fascist, Third-Position terrorist group, created by the West and the Shah to crush domestic opposition among Iranians, including both the Tudeh and anti-Shah clerics such as Imam Khomeini. For example, during the late 1970s, the MKO burned many theatres and other public places in Iran, resulting in massive civilian casualties, with the assistance of SAVAK and Western Special Forces. The Imperial regime then blamed the Tudeh and anti-Shah clerics for “Islamic-Marxist” terrorism. Obviously, the group then received massive assistance from Saddam’s Iraq during the “imposed war” against the IRI. The MKO has always been an instrument of terror and divide-and-rule.

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Posted (edited)

If you are interested you can refer to Iqtisaduna (our economics) and Falsafatuna (our philosophy) by Muhammad Baqir al Sadr. 

In these works Shaheed al Sadr provides an islamic alternative to socialist and capitalist economic philosophies as well as a critique of these systems at the time he wrote these books (1960s). 

Falsafutana in particular was written as a response to the growing influence of Marxism in Iraq at the time, while Iqtisaduna is the basis for modern day Islamic banking. 

Edited by Mahdavist
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On a local scale, socialist economy (ignoring the secularism) works within the framework of Islam. I converted to Islam long before I ever read about socialism, but I find much to admire in socialist ideology. I haven't read about Islamic socialism, but some day I'll get around to it. 

Islam doesn't support or forbid any economic system, but it does obligate the community to care for the poor and infirm. in the United States that would be considered socialist or communist (though it's not).

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, notme said:

@Mahdavist do you have a link to these books in electronic format and English translation? (Free or paid)

Falsafatuna:

https://www.al-islam.org/our-philosophy-falsafatuna-sayyid-muhammad-baqir-al-sadr

 

Part 1 of Iqtisaduna (I think you can find the remaining parts on the same website)

http://ijtihadnet.com/iqtisaduna-our-economics-vol-01-part-i-pdf/

 

You can also order these works on Amazon.

 

Other Islamic economy works by shaheed al sadr on al-islam.org:

https://www.al-islam.org/towards-islamic-economy-sayyid-muhammad-baqir-al-sadr

https://www.al-islam.org/what-do-you-know-about-islamic-economics-sayyid-muhammad-baqir-al-sadr

Edited by Mahdavist
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Northwest said:

.

In short, the MKO should be best deemed a far-right, fascist, Third-Position terrorist group, created by the West and the Shah to crush domestic opposition among Iranians, including both the Tudeh and anti-Shah clerics such as Imam Khomeini. For example, during the late 1970s, the MKO burned many theatres and other public places in Iran, resulting in massive civilian casualties, with the assistance of SAVAK and Western Special Forces. The Imperial regime then blamed the Tudeh and anti-Shah clerics for “Islamic-Marxist” terrorism. Obviously, the group then received massive assistance from Saddam’s Iraq during the “imposed war” against the IRI. The MKO has always been an instrument of terror and divide-and-rule.

I don't think that they are a Third Positionist group, Third Positionists tend to greatly admire the Islamic Republic of Iran. MKO are extremely strange, and I think in many ways their own thing, from what I have been able to gather about them they are like Trotskyites in regard to their psychotic cult of personality. Since Saddam went they are massively now supported by the Neo-Con wing of the US ruling elite. Resentment against Imam Khomieni and their cults of personality seem to be their key defining features. 

Edited by Celtic Twilight
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, notme said:

On a local scale, socialist economy (ignoring the secularism) works within the framework of Islam. I converted to Islam long before I ever read about socialism, but I find much to admire in socialist ideology. I haven't read about Islamic socialism, but some day I'll get around to it. 

Islam doesn't support or forbid any economic system, but it does obligate the community to care for the poor and infirm. in the United States that would be considered socialist or communist (though it's not).

 

Socialism does not have to be secular. I think actually Socialism can only really work long term when it has Religion, or at least some form of ethical Monotheism, because of the ethical demands it makes on people to work for the common good. I think the idea of an economy based around the concept of social duty as opposed to private greed fits in with what could be called the Abrahamic tradition in many ways. There was a quite interesting Jewish mystic called Yehuda Ashlag who predicted the fall of the Soviet Union, which he admired in very many ways because of it's atheism. He also predicted the collapse of "Labour Zionism" in Palestine for the same reason- but actually "Labour Zionism" in Palestine collapsed because of intra-Jewish racism as well as racism against the indigenous Palestinians who survived the Nabkha and were granted a sort of citizenship.

Talking about "Labour Zionism" what annoys me about a lot of Socialists is that they believe that if solve the economy than everything else will naturally get sorted which is very, very untrue. 
 

American Christianity in general seems extremely un-Christian to those who fall victim to Capitalism. 

Edited by Celtic Twilight
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On 5/23/2020 at 8:50 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam as  Iranians we don't have good memory  from mixing Islam with any ***ism that last mixing of a ***ism with it leads to creation a monster that we call it MKO terrorists.

MKO are currently allied to the scumiest, utterly nasty faction of the US Ruling Class who are the most cruelly capitalistic people you can imagine. They are also the people who are most antagonistic towards the Islamic world. It could be argued that anyone who allies with such people is NEITHER a Muslim or a Socialist. 

Ali Shariati is probably the most famous, at least in the West, example of an Islamic Socialist.  A lot of what I have read by him I agree with but some of this stuff I found silly. He did though die a martyr and he was important in the restoration of Iran to the Iranian people. 

From what I have read the economy of Iran is pretty Socialistic, not quite Socialism, but close. 

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1 hour ago, Northwest said:

.

In short, the MKO should be best deemed a far-right, fascist, Third-Position terrorist group, created by the West and the Shah to crush domestic opposition among Iranians, including both the Tudeh and anti-Shah clerics such as Imam Khomeini. For example, during the late 1970s, the MKO burned many theatres and other public places in Iran, resulting in massive civilian casualties, with the assistance of SAVAK and Western Special Forces. The Imperial regime then blamed the Tudeh and anti-Shah clerics for “Islamic-Marxist” terrorism. Obviously, the group then received massive assistance from Saddam’s Iraq during the “imposed war” against the IRI. The MKO has always been an instrument of terror and divide-and-rule.

I don't think that they are a Third Positionist group, Third Positionists tend to greatly admire the Islamic Republic of Iran. MKO are extremely strange, and I think in many ways there own thing, from what I have been able to gather about them they are like Trotskyites in regard to their psychotic cult of personality. Since Saddam went they are massively now supported by the Neo-Con wing of the US ruling elite. Resentment against Imam Khomieni and their cults of personality seem to be their key defining features. 

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This is a very interesting historical document both for what it does and does not say. Forget the introduction to the link and read his actual document. 

http://ijtihadnet.com/a-call-to-divine-unity-pdf/

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It is strange to assume that Islam is supportive or can "co-exist" with socialism when anyone well versed in Islamic Fiqh knows that certain rulings in Islam, especially those relating to property rights or in certain market scenarios, are completely opposite of what socialism wants or intends. 

There are aspects of Islam that can be labelled capitalist by some and aspects that can be labelled by socialist by some.

There is no proof of an "Islamic economic system" -, in terms of a comprehensive system that most modern nation-states tend to operate on, but if a country were to intend to build an economy while incorporating all Islamic economic ethics and principles, it would probably be one form of a mixed economy.

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12 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Falsafutana in particular was written as a response to the growing influence of Marxism in Iraq at the time

Falsafatuna(our philosophy) is hard insha'Allah.

philosophy

/fɪˈlɒsəfi/

noun

1. the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.

2. a theory or attitude that acts as a guiding principle for behaviour.

"don't expect anything and you won't be disappointed, that's my philosophy".

Philosophy (from Greek: φιλοσοφία, philosophia, 'love of wisdom')[1][2][3] is the study of general and fundamental questions about existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.[4][5] Such questions are often posed as problems[6][7] to be studied or resolved. The term was probably coined by Pythagoras (c. 570 – 495 BCE). Philosophical methods include questioning, critical discussion, rational argument, and systematic presentation.[8][9]

Classic philosophical questions include: 'is it possible to know anything and to prove it?'[10][11][12] and 'what is most real?'

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy

Who is 'our' philosophy & how far apart?

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Northwest said:

The MKO claimed to practice “Islamic Marxism,” which is itself an oxymoron. Marxism is strictly secularist and materialist in outlook, as opposed to the holistic view of Islam.

Hi /Salam they claimed themselves as “Islamic Marxism,” because at that time Marxism was equal to communism between all people but they didn't know other ***ism .

15 hours ago, Northwest said:

Most of the aid for Saddam during the Iran–Iraq war came from the West and its clients, including Israel, rather than from the Soviets. Iraq imported most of its WMD, heavy (conventional) weaponry, and technical specialists from the West. Another thing: the MKO’s war on unarmed civilians is historically a fascist tactic, not a Marxist one.

based on official reports just the soviet USSR aid to cursed Saddam (la) was equal to whole all aids from rest western countries & MKO terrorist organization follows a mixture of all inhuman ***ism  specially all of brutal ideas of soviets but also they follow any Zionist-American idea too.

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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Posted (edited)

Salam, to have a better understanding of Islamic economy between Capitalism, i.e. the West, and Communism, i.e. the East, and why Shia Islam was able to maintain its position, read the scientific work "A Shiite Economic Model: From Baqr al-Sadr to Contemporary Iraq" by Elisheva Machlis from the University of Tel Aviv. Link for free download: https://www.academia.edu/38249009/A_Shiite_Economic_Model_From_Baqr_al-Sadr_to_Contemporary_Iraq

It contains among others: economic theory of Shaheed Sadr, Grand Ayatullah Sayyid Sistani and Grand Ayatullah Ishaq Fayadh, the current two big Ayatollahs in Iraq etc.

Edited by lover
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6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

based on official reports just the soviet USSR aid to cursed Saddam (la) was equal to whole all aids from rest western countries & MKO terrorist organization follows a mixture of all inhuman ***ism  specially all of brutal ideas of soviets but also they follow any Zionist-American idea too.

@Ashvazdanghe

Which “official reports” are you referring to: Iranian or Western?

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Wait a sec--

Saddam didn't have any WMD when President Georgie coWboy decided to invade Iraq as a "response" for 9/11 (that the American CIA had been setting up since funding the "Afghan Mujahedeen" in the 80s). I came to a very serious realization about 9/11 & the logic behind it yesterday: Islam didn't do it. The CIA did it with the help of Saudi & Israeli operators, then blamed Islam for it. Why? Because Islam literally has the power to peacefully liberate the planet from the wicked hegemony of America's 0.001%... you know, the same people who demand that we work ourselves to death while at the same time, telling us that we don't deserve health care.

It all makes perfect sense, perhaps I will sketch out my detailed "likely version of events" for you sometime soon in a separate thread, but the long and short of it is this:

-Kissinger needs Middle East unstable and in chaos for his version of a US-led global order

-Reagan first fake president established as figurehead
-Hafez al-Assad sees this and creates the "poor man's atomic bomb", succeeds in pushing US out of Syria and ME (for a time)
-Technocrats who had studied under Leo Strauss (neocons) developed plan to confront soviets while making a whole lot of money and consolidating their power
-Soviets collapse, no one in America or Western Europe saw this coming... America has no "enemy" left
-Economy is dependent on war to destroy surplus supply, creating demand and powering economy
-Neocons begin to formulate plan with CIA, Saud, and Israel for "a new pearl harbor"
-Stooge president is elected who will not think to question the narrative
-foreign born CIA assets take down twin towers in covert operation, leave trail of breadcrumbs to blame Islam
-US govt's owners now have excuse they need to invade Iraq and depose Saddam Hussein, further destabilizing middle east
-The dominoes fall across the Muslim world, Iran remains defiant & allies with Russia, Syria manages to hold on despite Obama covertly funding ISIS (the Un-Islamic state)... hence why "RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA" and "IRAN IRAN IRAN" in US (propaganda) Media system
-Saud and Israel do the bidding of US in the region, with Saud taking great pains at times to appear as "oppositional" to both US and Israel, pushes sick, twisted Salafism calling itself "Islam", make the West afraid of Islam so as to keep the Western proles unenlightened to the real nature of life, thus allowing America & the West's war/usury economic system to continue to pretend to flourish, usually crashing every decade or so as life gets more depressing, more meaningless, and overall worse for the average American prole.

                                                                                  

It's more complex than that, but that's the long and short of it as I gather based on research I have done.

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If socialism or communism means that:

- You pick up a piece of trash and put it in the recycle bin so your homeland is clean.

- You spare a couple of hours on a weekend to help you old neighbor with house repair.

- You take action yourself instead of expecting big gov to do everything for you. Like repairing potholes, helping others in natural disasters, sheltering the homeless, the orphan, the widow and the weak.

- Make that a tradition of your nation.

- Do not conform to the imperial capitalists suck the blood out and genocide the world one by one, rather oppose them on general principle.

- Stuff like that.

Then I'm all in.

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