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Fatima123456789

Would marry someone who had a temporary marriage?

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24 minutes ago, notme said:

In my opinion, depends how recent and if he is still emotionally involved. She doesn't want to be her husband's second choice. But if some time has passed and he isn't thinking about his previous wife anymore, all other things being good, she should consider him. He could have lied. His honesty and openness is a good sign. 

Good point. It seems to me like someone who fornicated or used other haram means but kept it to themselves has some sort of an advantage against the one who followed halal methods and was honest about it.

How does that even make sense?

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Guest ali_fatheroforphans
On 5/27/2020 at 7:18 AM, Mahdavist said:

Shouldn't make a difference. Marriage is marriage. 

Lol two people marrying each other temporarily (maybe even a few hours) versus two people committing to a life-long marriage full of commitments.  Does it really sound similar?

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To be perfectly honest, people with such misbegotten expectations should expect to have their fantasy shattered and tread upon repeatedly as if they were a roadkill. That is how real life is, not just marriage. I would appreciate their honesty instead and move on to look for the qualities that actually matter in such a consideration. Foremost of those qualities is the level of obedience to Allah.

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On 5/27/2020 at 8:09 AM, Guest ali_fatheroforphans said:

Lol two people marrying each other temporarily (maybe even a few hours) versus two people committing to a life-long marriage full of commitments.  Does it really sound similar?

Zaynab bint Jahsh married Zaid ibn Thabit and they were divorced in less than two years. She then married the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). Previously she had been a widow from her first marriage.

Was virginity an issue or a topic of debate? Was the short duration of her marriage with Zaid an issue or a debate? 

Apparently not.

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3 hours ago, Guest ali_fatheroforphans said:

Lol two people marrying each other temporarily (maybe even a few hours) versus two people committing to a life-long marriage full of commitments.  Does it really sound similar?

Frankly, that makes Mutah sound like the incomparably better choice because the other way you are likely to get stuck for life with a loathsome person unless you take a plunge into trouble. Mind you, in Shia fiqh the wife can not divorce his husband (khula) and can only ask him for divorce. So your "life-long" marriage can easily become a life sentence for her. This is why I am always vehement in my advice on this subject, to choose most carefully according to the criterion laid out by Ahl al Bayt (عليه السلام) or prepare for a real peril. In mutah the time of contract ends and you walk away knowing more (including the fact that virginity is an absurdly overrated quality you boys look for in your potential wife). You do not want a pretty, virgin ringmaster at your home.

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On 5/26/2020 at 6:55 AM, AkhiraisReal said:

what about the other way around, if a female had been in mutah relationship, would you guys marry her?

Yes. Muta'a is a blessing for both men and women.  If a man believes that Muta'a is permissible and mustahab, but holds it against a woman who's done Muta'a, then the depth of his faith should be questioned.

Our perception of Muta'a and sex is so skewed and deeply flawed that it'd take generations to rectify it. 

Our perception of Muta'a seems to be completely disconnected from our religion's teachings and, instead, deeply rooted in cultural conjectures and opinions, and highly influenced by non-shia cultures and belief systems. 

Edited by SoRoUsH

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On 5/23/2020 at 6:15 PM, SoRoUsH said:

I won't go over the topic of Muta'a again. There are multiple threads on this topic in which I've participated in discussions. The bottom line is: Muta'a is Mustahab and a Sunnah. If you don't wish to believe this, then don't. Up to you. 

Wassalam

In the other thread I didn't give my reasons for my view. So I took this opportunity to do it.

What are the implications of considering mutah as a recommended act?

How would you recommend utilizing the blessing of mutah? I assume that in your view if a person has the opportunity to do mutah then they should do it for the blessings. Does this mean that if a person is in mutah they should remain in it to prolong the blessing (if there is no possibility of any permanent marriage)? Should they break a mutah with one person if it means they can travel and do mutah with more people who are deprived of it? Is it better to stay in a longer term mutah or to take the opportunity to have numerous shorter term ones?

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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On 5/23/2020 at 4:12 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

She should save herself the torture and outright reject him.

Perhaps I need to clarify that I wasn't trolling or joking.

If this is causing her difficulty right now, then there is a risk that it could be greatly amplified when she marries him and falls in love. This pain could last years. This is the torture that I was referring to.

There may be people who don't mind it and it doesn't bother them at all, or who have no choice, but this girl already knows that it bothers her and she has a choice and she needs to avoid taking that risk. She doesn't know how much worse she may feel later.

People need to realize that there is a difference between theory and reality. You can theorize how you may feel when doing something, but reality is sometimes different.

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If one has mutah with the intention to find the right partner and get to know each other better, that is fine.

Having sex with each other is also fine, but if the intention for mutah is solely for sex, then I don't think many woman would agree to the contract unless she has been decieved.

Even though I know that there is a big difference between the jurisprudence of mutah and buying sex from a prostitute, sometimes however I feel like it's being used in the same way.

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6 hours ago, The Green Knight said:

Shia fiqh the wife can not divorce his husband (khula) and can only ask him for divorce

I never knew this. Please proivde a source.

 

Edited by AStruggler

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Guest ali_fatheroforphans
On 5/27/2020 at 10:03 AM, Mahdavist said:

Zaynab bint Jahsh married Zaid ibn Thabit and they were divorced in less than two years. She then married the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)). Previously she had been a widow from her first marriage.

Was virginity an issue or a topic of debate? Was the short duration of her marriage with Zaid an issue or a debate? 

Apparently not.

Again, you're bringing up two different examples. Entering into temporary marriage with the intention of not marrying the person permanently is different to someone who enters with a mindset of "committed long-term relationship", but due to the circumstances divorce happens. The latter is normal.

Virginity is not an issue and this has nothing to do with  the thread. The thread is "will you marry someone who previously did mutah?". There is a deeper psychological issue when one obsessively wants to enter into a temporary marriage time and time again. This concept is even present in the Western world and it's called "casual dating". 

Therefore, my point is that we shouldn't make these issues to be so black and white. If a girl wants a loyal husband who will only stick to her, I'd say that she rejects a guy who previously has been in multiple mutah relationships. Sometimes mutah can become a tool for men to satisfy their endless fantasies - as you see some sleeping with multiple girls. Yes, Islam allows it, but there are worldy consequences and deeper issues which arise that we can't ignore. It really depends person to person.

It's not just an issue of "oh she's not an virgin". Because someone who genuinely wanted to commit to a long-term relationship is different to someone who is like "I will sleep with her and then I'll move on". You understand my point?

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3 hours ago, Guest ali_fatheroforphans said:

It's not just an issue of "oh she's not an virgin". Because someone who genuinely wanted to commit to a long-term relationship is different to someone who is like "I will sleep with her and then I'll move on". You understand my point?

No, but we don't have to discuss it further. We can agree to disagree. 

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@OrthodoxTruth I noticed that you liked a post which stated that mutah was mustahab. After our interaction on the other thread where you spoke about getting the views of a marja, I thought I would ask this question for you. I believe the last sentence is in reference to temporary marriage and not marriage itself.

tnW3Nam.png?1

 

 

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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Guest point!Monad
On 6/1/2020 at 10:14 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

As a percentage, how many high raking scholars of today have more than one wife or slave girls?

Fair Point.

I wouldn't know. I generally do not dwell in the religions superstars and their minions. That is probably due to them not having their on Media outlets. Could be a good business idea. Shieck A, just uses shampoo X. The kid of Marja is going to marry so and so!

But how would we know?. Is there anyway to know?. What they really share such details? Is there any benefit to such details?. Do  those close to us tell us when they are divorcing or intended to marry another partner?. Until it happens that is when we find out.

We only know of what we are told ,see or experience. Generally most of what we know is hearsay and from that we form an opinion of a particular reality. Question is how did I conclude that a percentage of the high end of society demand X. It would come down to observation and reading historical literature to present day manifestation of the behaviors of a certain class.

What was the purpose of four wives. Women were seen as property, the more one had the more it esteemed wealth and power. But having more then four might determine the failure of a tribe as it would inhibt the other men from procreating thus causing violence or aggressive behavior. Thus we can let the peasant class have one or the leftovers.

Was it speculation on my part. Yes.

Is the probability high. Yes

Is it fact?: No, unless evidence is provided and whom the provider is and what benefit are being exchanged to either party.

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On 6/1/2020 at 10:14 PM, Muhammed Ali said:

As a percentage, how many high raking scholars of today have more than one wife or slave girls?

It is pretty naive to think that many of the clerics don't have multiple wives, permanent or temporary, it isn't unheard of that a woman in London for example goes to an Islamic center to ask a question and the person offers her a temporary marriage. Can you imagine how many women throw themselves at these social media clerics? They are only human at the end of the day, it would be hard for anyone to just keep ignoring it.

Let's not even talk about countries like Iraq, we all know what goes on there. 

All I've said is obviously anecdotal 'evidence' at best, but there are enough indicators that that is what is going on to some extent. The actually scholars may not engage in that kind thing because they tend to be more serious people however the scholars are few and far between most of the hawza students are just clerics, their scholarly or academic output is next to none.

The reason that there aren't many scandals is that cultural people wouldn't even report the abuse of their child to the police if they thought it would harm the community - that is if they even believe their child so naturally they wouldn't talk about this. But nevertheless there are stories out there.

As to the question of the op, on the surface it is probably a bad idea for a virgin to wed someone who has had a temporary marriage in the past.

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13 minutes ago, Diaz said:

I don’t know, tell me.

Well apart from that BBC documentary not too long ago (that of course these twitter clerics tried to dismiss as a slanderous attack against Shias rather than addressing the issue, but let us not dwell on the reasons for that)

A few years back one of sayed Sistani's wakils (apparently, everyone seems to he his wakil) lost his phone on which he had filmed himself having sex with some of his mut'a wives and it caused a little scandal, I think it was even discussed on Shiachat.

In the west they can play on the idolisation the average person has for the clerical uniform, over there on top of that there is widespread poverty and women outnumber men. I'm not saying that it is wrong or immoral in some or even most instances, I doubt I would have much more self control were I in their position - but there are clearly instances of vile manipulation and abuse of being in a trusted position.

Edited by Ali_Hussain

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On 5/22/2020 at 8:33 PM, Fatima123456789 said:

Salam

my cousin is talking to a potential rishta right now, and he revealed he has had a mutah previously with one person.

As it is technically permissible and the man seem pretty interested in deen and justified it through deen as well, would you guys be ok with this? She is very conflicted and not sure what to do as she has never done anything like this nor had any experiences like this before. 

I would if she was a kind and pleasant person who would treat me right.

Why not?

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On 5/28/2020 at 6:37 AM, SoRoUsH said:

Yes. Muta'a is a blessing for both men and women.  If a man believes that Muta'a is permissible and mustahab, but holds it against a woman who's done Muta'a, then the depth of his faith should be questioned.

Our perception of Muta'a and sex is so skewed and deeply flawed that it'd take generations to rectify it. 

Our perception of Muta'a seems to be completely disconnected from our religion's teachings and, instead, deeply rooted in cultural conjectures and opinions, and highly influenced by non-shia cultures and belief systems. 

This.

On 5/28/2020 at 8:02 AM, Muhammed Ali said:

What are the implications of considering mutah as a recommended act?

Many ulama consider nikah mutah to be recommended act in order to prevent zina and/or prostitution. That’s why the temporary marriage is seen as recommended, in order to avoid sinning. This is, for example, position of majority of  modern Iranian ulama. Nikah mutah comes with a set of rules and obligations, and gives women protection, unlike engagement in fornication and babies out of wedlock, like in the West and even plenty of Muslim countries (Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, Turkey and others). 

On 6/2/2020 at 9:09 AM, Muhammed Ali said:

@OrthodoxTruth I noticed that you liked a post which stated that mutah was mustahab. After our interaction on the other thread where you spoke about getting the views of a marja, I thought I would ask this question for you. I believe the last sentence is in reference to temporary marriage and not marriage itself.

tnW3Nam.png?1

 

 

I appreciate your efforts on my behalf but I’m not a muqalid of Shaykh Makarem Shirazi. I know the rulings of my marja’ on jurisprudential issues quite well because I studied under his representative for my region, as well as having my marja’s books at home.

1 hour ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Let's not even talk about countries like Iraq, we all know what goes on there. 

I’m glad that on the Judgment Day you are more than ready to answer for this accusation against 40 million people, the land of martyrs. Have you ever lived in Iraq, you would get shot if you will touch non-mahram girl to you. 

1 hour ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Well apart from that BBC documentary not too long ago (that of course these twitter clerics tried to dismiss as a slanderous attack against Shias rather than addressing the issue, but let us not dwell on the reasons for that)

A few years back one of sayed Sistani's wakils (apparently, everyone seems to he his wakil) lost his phone on which he had filmed himself having sex with some of his mut'a wives and it caused a little scandal, I think it was even discussed on Shiachat.

In the west they can play on the idolisation the average person has for the clerical uniform, over there on top of that there is widespread poverty and women outnumber men. I'm not saying that it is wrong or immoral in some or even most instances, I doubt I would have much more self control were I in their position - but there are clearly instances of vile manipulation and abuse of being in a trusted position.

If you have a proof, bring it forth. If you don’t, stop spreading fitnah. You degrade and undermine ulama, Iraqi women dignity and society with such empty accusations. You will have to answer for that. Temporary marriage is permissible and if you cause injustice to a single person with your posts, you will be questioned. Your tongue is no different to the one used by Wahhabis, who few years back accused Shias of “leavening scores of babies behind” after the Arba'een, something that was proved as false by the multiple sources, Shia and Western. Meanwhile, Saudis fathered tens of thousands of children abroad, which became a real headache for the fundamentalist Sunni regime. For example, after he became the ruler (1 August 2005), King Abdullah had ordered that money be paid to the abandoned children of Saudi men. That didn’t stop the zina of Saudi Wahhabis. Facts are backed by proof, not slanders and empty words. 

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19 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

 

I’m glad that on the Judgment Day you are more than ready to answer for this accusation against 40 million people, the land of martyrs. Have you ever lived in Iraq, you would get shot if you will touch non-mahram girl to you. 

If you have a proof, bring it forth. If you don’t, stop spreading fitnah. You degrade and undermine ulama, Iraqi women dignity and society with such empty accusations. You will have to answer for that. Temporary marriage is permissible and if you cause injustice to a single person with your posts, you will be questioned. Your tongue is no different to the one used by Wahhabis, who few years back accused Shias of “leavening scores of babies behind” after the Arba'een, something that was proved as false by the multiple sources, Shia and Western. Meanwhile, Saudis fathered tens of thousands of children abroad, which became a real headache for the fundamentalist Sunni regime. For example, after he became the ruler (1 August 2005), King Abdullah had ordered that money be paid to the abandoned children of Saudi men. That didn’t stop the zina of Saudi Wahhabis. Facts are backed by proof, not slanders and empty words. 

Basically most of what you said there has got nothing to do with anything, you are bringing up things like arba'in and wahabis and saudis because you are trying to make an emotional argument trying to somehow link what I said to what they did, trying to use emotive language like "land of the martyrs" - appeal to emotion is the weakest form of argumentation and that is all you do in all you posts.

You don't believe the BBC documentary that is fine, or you think that it is true but essentially there is no issue with the things they described that is also fine. I've got no issue with a girl doing mut'a without paternal consent or that a girl is baligha when she reaches puberty, my issue is the morality of doing the way that it is shown in the documentary. 

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4 minutes ago, Ali_Hussain said:

Basically most of what you said there has got nothing to do with anything, you are bringing up things like arba'in and wahabis and saudis because you are trying to make an emotional argument trying to somehow link what I said to what they did, trying to use emotive language like "land of the martyrs" - appeal to emotion is the weakest form of argumentation and that is all you do in all you posts.

You don't believe the BBC documentary that is fine, or you think that it is true but essentially there is no issue with the things they described that is also fine. I've got no issue with a girl doing mut'a without paternal consent or that a girl is baligha when she reaches puberty, my issue is the morality of doing the way that it is shown in the documentary. 

Again, you haven’t brought a single proof yet you accused 40 million people, undermined ulama and attacked the dignity of Iraqi women. I’ve clearly asked for a solid proof of such slanderous accusations. I also asked if you ever lived in Iraq and know first hand how things look on the ground. BBC propaganda is just that, propaganda. If you base your religion and opinions on Western TV channel propaganda shows done by a group of hired Sunnis, then it’s up to you, but do not slander others without concrete proof for such accusations because this is haram. 

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1 hour ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

Again, you haven’t brought a single proof yet you accused 40 million people, undermined ulama and attacked the dignity of Iraqi women. I’ve clearly asked for a solid proof of such slanderous accusations. I also asked if you ever lived in Iraq and know first hand how things look on the ground. BBC propaganda is just that, propaganda. If you base your religion and opinions on Western TV channel propaganda shows done by a group of hired Sunnis, then it’s up to you, but do not slander others without concrete proof for such accusations because this is haram. 

Brother, in the aftermath of the documentary many of the clerics who issued statements were speaking out against what many already knew was taking place in Iraq. Regardless of what the BBCs intentions were, the content was not 'made up' and the ulema understood this as can be seen from their statements.

The sad reality is that such things do occur in Iraq, Iran and any muslim society suffering from poverty. Different forms of marriage are used to prevent such actions from falling into 'zina'. 

The accusation is not against 40 million people, in the same way as the allegations of corruption in Iran and Iraq are not against the entire population. 

Finally there is no such thing as a 'land of martyrs.' Martyrdom has been achieved in various places and sadly in all of those places there was also injustice which led to these martyrdoms. These kinds of emotional denials of reality carry no credibility. If we sweep every social issue in Iraq or Iran under the carpet by using such covers then we are doing an injustice to the people who are suffering from them. 

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11 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

Many ulama consider nikah mutah to be recommended act in order to prevent zina and/or prostitution. That’s why the temporary marriage is seen as recommended, in order to avoid sinning.

Can you be more specific? You believe it's mustahab for a person who can do without it or for the person who cannot? 

Who is your marja? 

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14 hours ago, Ali_Hussain said:

It is pretty naive to think that many of the clerics don't have multiple wives, permanent or temporary, it isn't unheard of that a woman in London for example goes to an Islamic center to ask a question and the person offers her a temporary marriage. Can you imagine how many women throw themselves at these social media clerics? They are only human at the end of the day, it would be hard for anyone to just keep ignoring it.

You are speaking of clerics, I was referring to the well known highest ranking scholars. 

I am not going to disagree with what you said about clerics or the speakers. But we must be fair to them and recognize that they are a mixed group. There will be some (or even many) who are like what you described and others that are not. 

 

Edited by Muhammed Ali

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13 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

This

Quoting you from another thread: "To a reasonable degree, we as a laymen have no say in what constitutes religious rites, and what does not."

So what gives you the right to declare the validity of the supposed view of a certain marja over another? Instead of saying 'this', why not say there is a difference of opinion and 'I don't know'?

Quote

 I know the rulings of my marja’ on jurisprudential issues quite well because I studied under his representative for my region, as well as having my marja’s books at home.

Perhaps you could quote one of those books or provide a written fatwa to prove your point? 

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9 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Many ulama consider nikah mutah to be recommended act in order to prevent zina and/or prostitution. That’s why the temporary marriage is seen as recommended, in order to avoid sinning.

Nikah and mutah are both recommended in order to avoid sin. But this begs the question....if nikah and mutah are meant to give protection to a man from sin, then does it become permissible for a man to do some sin when it is not possible for him to do nikah/mutah? Of course, the answer is no. 

That means even if a person can never get married (for example he is imprisoned for life),  he cannot give this as an excuse to commit any sexual sin. So, that means that even though nikah and mutah can help in avoiding sin, a man has to avoid sin even when this help is not available/will never be available. A man is not allowed to say that he only did some sexual sin because he is unmarried and has no access to nikah/mutah. Rather Islamic rules would expect men to be free from sexual sins even if they are forced into a life of celibacy and will never get a single chance in their lives to have halal sex. Even in such a case, it will be complusory for the man to remain free from all sexual sins.

Edited by Anonymous-Male

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@Anonymous-Male It's not problem. You were quoting @OrthodoxTruth

I must clarify that when I spoke of dissonance, I meant in what you wrote and what others believe. They speak of people needing to do things because of hardship, yet in other cases they see no inability? Do they think human nature changes with either case? With such beliefs, imagine trying to convince a rational person that Islam is reasonable. Risk taking refers to having certainty over some opinions even though there is an element of harm. 

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On 6/7/2020 at 4:28 AM, OrthodoxTruth said:

Again, you haven’t brought a single proof yet you accused 40 million people, undermined ulama and attacked the dignity of Iraqi women. I’ve clearly asked for a solid proof of such slanderous accusations. I also asked if you ever lived in Iraq and know first hand how things look on the ground. BBC propaganda is just that, propaganda. If you base your religion and opinions on Western TV channel propaganda shows done by a group of hired Sunnis, then it’s up to you, but do not slander others without concrete proof for such accusations because this is haram. 

When did the brother accuse 40 million people? I didn't know there were 40 million clerics in Iraq. Matter of fact he didn't even accuse all clerics so your claim is quite ridiculous. 

That being said, using your logic you accused him of something he didn't do, and you probably will have answer to this someday. 

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