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In the Name of God بسم الله

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14 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

What is/are the greatest conceivable and ultimate act(s) of love that could be done by a human?  What about God? 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) creating the living, seen and unseen so that we could worship Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) unconditionally as a proof of His (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) greatness. 

Edited by OrthodoxTruth

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Thanks for your responses!

 

I had to look up the battle of Karbala so I learned something new too!  Thanks for that!  

I like your example of Karbala because it shows that Imam Hussain gave all that he could.  He gave his life and there is nothing more that could be given. I believe that God creating us to worship him is proof of his greatness as was said, and of course creation is a very loving thing for God to give us.  But I think acts of love that are great don't necessarily mean they are the greatest acts of love.  God's acts of love are always obviously greater and more pure than anything humans can do.  I think there are different situations in life that require loving responses and that you could choose to maybe do the most loving thing for that particular situation.  But still, is it the most loving thing that can be thought of or conceived?  There are situations that require the ultimate sacrifice, like that of Imam Hussain. He could have fought hard and lived and would have been considered a hero.  But the fact that he gave the ultimate for what he believed shows that he was completely dedicated to it and the situation, I believe, tested his love and loyalty to his faith and people.  

Another example that came to my mind is someone who we all would consider very loving, let's say, a person who starts an orphanage and dedicates their life to helping children.  That is a noble, good and loving thing to do.  However, this person, under the right circumstances, could do a conceivably more loving thing.  What if a group of evil people come along and threaten to kill all the children for whatever reason and this man steps in and says, "take me and kill me instead, but spare the children."  I would say that if he loses his life for those children (provided his motives were good)  and spares them that he did the greatest act of love that a mere man could commit.  He gave so much that there was none left to give.  

I think the same example goes for God.  God has done so many loving things.  All of us can agree.  However, if God is loving and essence and definition of love, shouldn't he also be able to complete the ultimate act of love that can be conceived for God?   When I say ultimate, I mean that we think about loving acts that God can commit until the act is so loving that we cannot even conceive in our minds something greater being done.  So, for example, God creates man.  That is very loving.  God interacts with man and gives him his laws.  That is even more loving because he doesn't just leave man alone.  God forgives man.  Wow!  Now he can pardon man from his sins, which is even more loving.  We could keep on thinking of more and more acts of love that God could do and I believe that the ultimate form of God's love for you and I is when he dies for our sins (Isaiah 53). 

Romans 5:10 says, "For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"

We were enemies of God naturally because of sin (something we both agree we commit and need forgiveness for).  

Romans also says, 

Romans 5:7-9 

"7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

In John 15 Jesus is talking to his disciples shortly before he dies and says, "12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants,[a] for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another."

Jesus dying for sinners is the ultimate example of God's love.  We are the ultimate sinners and offenders of God's laws but God is the ultimate forgiver and lover.  I fully understand that some may not agree with this, but think about this.  Let's just pretend that Allah had to die like Jesus to forgive sins and that it was simply the only way to provide peace between man and God because sins needed to be atoned for.  If Allah died and rose again (again this is a hypothetical for Muslims) and said, "your sins are forgiven now in me.  Receive me and my gift of salvation through belief and you will be saved from hell and will live in Paradise with me forever," would you not consider that as the most loving thing Allah could do for you considering his necessity to punish sin and provide a ransom?  

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@tdawg626 God "dying" wouldn't be an act of love. It would be abandonment of the Creation, an act of giving up, of quitting. 

Love doesn't always required death. Sometimes the greatest act of love is to live.

Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) is one example. Now read the story of Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام). 

All of our Imams are perfect examples. 

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On 5/23/2020 at 1:46 PM, tdawg626 said:

Thanks for your responses!

 

I had to look up the battle of Karbala so I learned something new too!  Thanks for that!  

I like your example of Karbala because it shows that Imam Hussain gave all that he could.  He gave his life and there is nothing more that could be given. I believe that God creating us to worship him is proof of his greatness as was said, and of course creation is a very loving thing for God to give us.  But I think acts of love that are great don't necessarily mean they are the greatest acts of love.  God's acts of love are always obviously greater and more pure than anything humans can do.  I think there are different situations in life that require loving responses and that you could choose to maybe do the most loving thing for that particular situation.  But still, is it the most loving thing that can be thought of or conceived?  There are situations that require the ultimate sacrifice, like that of Imam Hussain. He could have fought hard and lived and would have been considered a hero.  But the fact that he gave the ultimate for what he believed shows that he was completely dedicated to it and the situation, I believe, tested his love and loyalty to his faith and people.  

Another example that came to my mind is someone who we all would consider very loving, let's say, a person who starts an orphanage and dedicates their life to helping children.  That is a noble, good and loving thing to do.  However, this person, under the right circumstances, could do a conceivably more loving thing.  What if a group of evil people come along and threaten to kill all the children for whatever reason and this man steps in and says, "take me and kill me instead, but spare the children."  I would say that if he loses his life for those children (provided his motives were good)  and spares them that he did the greatest act of love that a mere man could commit.  He gave so much that there was none left to give.  

I think the same example goes for God.  God has done so many loving things.  All of us can agree.  However, if God is loving and essence and definition of love, shouldn't he also be able to complete the ultimate act of love that can be conceived for God?   When I say ultimate, I mean that we think about loving acts that God can commit until the act is so loving that we cannot even conceive in our minds something greater being done.  So, for example, God creates man.  That is very loving.  God interacts with man and gives him his laws.  That is even more loving because he doesn't just leave man alone.  God forgives man.  Wow!  Now he can pardon man from his sins, which is even more loving.  We could keep on thinking of more and more acts of love that God could do and I believe that the ultimate form of God's love for you and I is when he dies for our sins (Isaiah 53). 

Romans 5:10 says, "For if, while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!"

We were enemies of God naturally because of sin (something we both agree we commit and need forgiveness for).  

Romans also says, 

Romans 5:7-9 

"7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God."

In John 15 Jesus is talking to his disciples shortly before he dies and says, "12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15 No longer do I call you servants,[a] for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another."

Jesus dying for sinners is the ultimate example of God's love.  We are the ultimate sinners and offenders of God's laws but God is the ultimate forgiver and lover.  I fully understand that some may not agree with this, but think about this.  Let's just pretend that Allah had to die like Jesus to forgive sins and that it was simply the only way to provide peace between man and God because sins needed to be atoned for.  If Allah died and rose again (again this is a hypothetical for Muslims) and said, "your sins are forgiven now in me.  Receive me and my gift of salvation through belief and you will be saved from hell and will live in Paradise with me forever," would you not consider that as the most loving thing Allah could do for you considering his necessity to punish sin and provide a ransom?  

Hi,

I hope you are doing well.  Would just like to say that a typical Muslim would find your formulations of “God dying” problematic.  Yet, I as a Muslim, can cut through the seemingly problematic language you are using by understanding the essence of what you are trying to convey through the early Church Fathers and by seeing its significance or universal message as expressed through the language of Islam.  I encourage everyone on this thread to do the same.  To come to a “Common Word” and to do so with “Ihsan” in a beautiful manner, inshallah.  
for the Quran says:

 

BBBDD636-653A-4683-B060-9AA20AE14308.jpeg
 

Firstly, you should agree logically that an Infinite cannot “become” finite.  So how can God be a human and die for everyone’s sins?  You cannot logically split that which Absolute into parts and say  “the Father didn’t die but the Son died.”  God is not made of parts.  

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On 5/24/2020 at 5:03 PM, eThErEaL said:

Hi,

I hope you are doing well.  Would just like to say that a typical Muslim would find your formulations of “God dying” problematic.  Yet, I as a Muslim, can cut through the seemingly problematic language you are using by understanding the essence of what you are trying to convey through the early Church Fathers and by seeing its significance or universal message as expressed through the language of Islam.  I encourage everyone on this thread to do the same.  To come to a “Common Word” and to do so with “Ihsan” in a beautiful manner, inshallah.  
for the Quran says:

 

BBBDD636-653A-4683-B060-9AA20AE14308.jpeg
 

Firstly, you should agree logically that an Infinite cannot “become” finite.  So how can God be a human and die for everyone’s sins?  You cannot logically split that which Absolute into parts and say  “the Father didn’t die but the Son died.”  God is not made of parts.  

Hi, I hope you are doing well as well, especially in this crazy time around the globe!  I wish the best for you and your family!

I think that theology is hard because you are studying who God is.  God is not an easy topic to discuss and to understand at points.  I am aware that Muslims and Christians disagree on this topic and I'm glad we can have discussions such as this.  Obviously this topic comes up a lot in the discussions.  

Christians generally believe that God is both three and One.  We are well aware of the many verses that speak of God being One, but upon reading the full story, both Old and New Testaments, taking into account prophecies, names, actions, claims, etc., we see that all three persons (not beings) of God are given the same worship, deity, importance, status, etc.  We believe that God revealed his being over time in the Old and New Testaments.  We do not believe in Three beings and three persons.  I am one being and only one person.  We believe God to be One being (Yahweh) and three persons of that being, all distinct and with different roles, but yet all completely Yahweh.  I think for us it would be "problematic" if we see Jesus living simply as a man and nothing else.  Jesus is different, though.  He does and says everything that Yahweh does and says.  You see, Yahweh is described in the Old Testament as a "jealous God," not because he has human immature jealousy, but because he desires worship for himself and himself alone, knowing he is the creator and the best things for humanity.  Even in the case that Jesus is only a man and a prophet, he should have been killed or at least removed from being a prophet because (even if some don't believe Son of Man and Son of God refer to divinity titles) he forgives sins, talks about his own authority, refers to himself using Old Testament prophecy, obviously comes from heaven and more.  If Jesus is not the second person of the Trinity, he is a rather odd figure because, unlike the other prophets, he is not just a man.  Put Muhammad's name in place of Jesus (just for an example) throughout the New Testament and I would bet that if that were so, Muslims would be really looking into who he really was.  Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Ishmael, Moses, or whoever, were clearly shown to be just men.  There's something different about Jesus.  

Isaiah 55:8-9 New International Version (NIV)

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Romans 11:33 says, "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!"

Micah 4:12

“But they do not know the thoughts of the Lord,
And they do not understand His purpose;
For He has gathered them like sheaves to the threshing floor.

Read Job chapters 38-41 about what God says to Job regarding his ways.  

I believe that God does not have to be fully comprehended by us humans.  That is to try and fit God into our limited thinking.  We are finite.  He is not.  Even in the Quran we see Allah do incredible things like create or have the Quran come down from heaven.  We can logically understand that to a point but there is a point where we come to a cliff and can no longer understand but have to take that by faith.  God cannot be fully comprehended.  God can do anything he wants to and be who he wants because he just is.  The only thing I know that God cannot do is go against his word or sin.  

When I say that God died, I am referring to the second person of the being of God, Jesus.  Jesus, however,  does not cease to exist when he dies.  We both can agree that there is an afterlife and God is the ruler over that.  Jesus dies but death does not means he finite.  He is infinite always.  Again, I believe God can do anything and cannot be limited.  God does things that blow our mind and he reveals to us only some things.  There is more to God than what has been revealed.  He is greater than what we can see and comprehend.  What is illogical to us and completely understood by the all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful God.  

That is why, I mostly agree with the Surah you posted, except the part where is says "bear witness that we are Muslims," because obviously I am not lol.  But I don't believe that any other Lord, "god," "gods," created things should be worshiped at all, but only the one God.  Most Christians believe that Jesus is eternal and a distinct person of the being of the One God, so we do not worship three Gods, but one. For us, Jesus was never created, always was and always will be.  Various times we even see "The Angel of the Lord" appear in the Old Testament, which we believe to be the pre-incarnate Jesus because, unlike other angels, this being is worshiped, radically different than humans also, is called God.  This happens with Joshua, Abraham, with in the book of Daniel and in other places

God is not made up of parts, you are right.  I would say he is made up of persons, yet again, only one being.  If my being was made up of more than one person, each person of that being would represent fully that being.  Again, based on the full and complete revelation of the Bible, we cannot help but see remarkable similarities between the Father, Son and Spirit and they are related in too many ways to be of different beings.  We believe that every New Testament writer believed the same in what they wrote.  

Again, I know that in a lot of cases we have to agree to disagree, but that's ok!  It's good to have the conversations, sharing what each of us believes.  I have been learning a lot from Muslims in this chatroom, and, although I do not believe what you do, I respect you and your faith.  

God bless and I hope Ramadan was a pleasant time for you!  I'm sure today was a day of feasting! lol

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On 5/24/2020 at 6:44 PM, tdawg626 said:

Hi, I hope you are doing well as well, especially in this crazy time around the globe!  I wish the best for you and your family!

I think that theology is hard because you are studying who God is.  God is not an easy topic to discuss and to understand at points.  I am aware that Muslims and Christians disagree on this topic and I'm glad we can have discussions such as this.  Obviously this topic comes up a lot in the discussions.  

Christians generally believe that God is both three and One.  We are well aware of the many verses that speak of God being One, but upon reading the full story, both Old and New Testaments, taking into account prophecies, names, actions, claims, etc., we see that all three persons (not beings) of God are given the same worship, deity, importance, status, etc.  We believe that God revealed his being over time in the Old and New Testaments.  We do not believe in Three beings and three persons.  I am one being and only one person.  We believe God to be One being (Yahweh) and three persons of that being, all distinct and with different roles, but yet all completely Yahweh.  I think for us it would be "problematic" if we see Jesus living simply as a man and nothing else.  Jesus is different, though.  He does and says everything that Yahweh does and says.  You see, Yahweh is described in the Old Testament as a "jealous God," not because he has human immature jealousy, but because he desires worship for himself and himself alone, knowing he is the creator and the best things for humanity.  Even in the case that Jesus is only a man and a prophet, he should have been killed or at least removed from being a prophet because (even if some don't believe Son of Man and Son of God refer to divinity titles) he forgives sins, talks about his own authority, refers to himself using Old Testament prophecy, obviously comes from heaven and more.  If Jesus is not the second person of the Trinity, he is a rather odd figure because, unlike the other prophets, he is not just a man.  Put Muhammad's name in place of Jesus (just for an example) throughout the New Testament and I would bet that if that were so, Muslims would be really looking into who he really was.  Abraham, Jacob, Isaac, Ishmael, Moses, or whoever, were clearly shown to be just men.  There's something different about Jesus.  

Isaiah 55:8-9 New International Version (NIV)

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Romans 11:33 says, "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!"

Micah 4:12

“But they do not know the thoughts of the Lord,
And they do not understand His purpose;
For He has gathered them like sheaves to the threshing floor.

Read Job chapters 38-41 about what God says to Job regarding his ways.  

I believe that God does not have to be fully comprehended by us humans.  That is to try and fit God into our limited thinking.  We are finite.  He is not.  Even in the Quran we see Allah do incredible things like create or have the Quran come down from heaven.  We can logically understand that to a point but there is a point where we come to a cliff and can no longer understand but have to take that by faith.  God cannot be fully comprehended.  God can do anything he wants to and be who he wants because he just is.  The only thing I know that God cannot do is go against his word or sin.  

When I say that God died, I am referring to the second person of the being of God, Jesus.  Jesus, however,  does not cease to exist when he dies.  We both can agree that there is an afterlife and God is the ruler over that.  Jesus dies but death does not means he finite.  He is infinite always.  Again, I believe God can do anything and cannot be limited.  God does things that blow our mind and he reveals to us only some things.  There is more to God than what has been revealed.  He is greater than what we can see and comprehend.  What is illogical to us and completely understood by the all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful God. 

Thank you for your well wishes.  

There is something unique about each prophet of God.  Not only about Jesus. Even Adam didn’t have a biological father.  And not only did he not have a father but neither did he have a biological mother.  Does this make Adam “supernatural”?  
 

But nevertheless...I agree that Indeed there was something special about Jesus, but every Prophet had a special uniqueness.  Moses could “speak to God”, “He split the sea”.  Abraham was flung in a fire and the fire was made cool.  Solomon could speak to animals.  David could put his hand in fire and shape Molten iron.  Now what makes the final Prophet (S) unique?  Muslims say, his utter modesty despite him “physically or corporeally ascending” to what is beyond the Heavens and being One with God.  From a Muslim point of view, the Prophet Muhammad (S) could have done what all the previous prophets did, he had the capacity for it, but out of modesty he refrained from it.  Nevertheless his uniqueness is his ascent to what is beyond the heavens and in the final revelation (Quran).

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On 5/24/2020 at 8:42 PM, eThErEaL said:

Thank you for your well wishes.  

There is something unique about each prophet of God.  Not only about Jesus. Even Adam didn’t have a biological father.  And not only did he not have a father but neither did he have a biological mother.  Does this make Adam “supernatural”?  
 

But nevertheless...I agree that Indeed there was something special about Jesus, but every Prophet had a special uniqueness.  Moses could “speak to God”, “He split the sea”.  Abraham was flung in a fire and the fire was made cool.  Solomon could speak to animals.  David could put his hand in fire and shape Molten iron.  Now what makes the final Prophet (S) unique?  Muslims say, his utter modesty despite him “physically or corporeally ascending” to what is beyond the Heavens and being One with God.  From a Muslim point of view, the Prophet Muhammad (S) could have done what all the previous prophets did, he had the capacity for it, but out of modesty he refrained from it.  Nevertheless his uniqueness is his ascent to what is beyond the heavens and in the final revelation (Quran).

Hey eThErEaL!  God bless you!

I do agree that each prophet of God has qualities that make them distinct from others.  Those who performed miracles are seen to have been done through God's power.  When taking a closer look at Jesus I still see him being distinct from all the rest, some major points being that he was born of a virgin (not conceived by a human mom and dad), never sinned, and was called the Messiah, some qualities among others that are not consistent with other human prophets we read about.  

If you would like to and have time, I would like to invite you to read this short article by a seminary professor to see what you think. I'm happy to read anything you would like me to as well.  God knows I'm working on reading the Quran lol (having a baby does not make this easy lol). 

Anyway, here is the article https://sbts-wordpress-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/equip/uploads/2010/02/sbjt_081_geisler.pdf

Hope you have a great day.  Praying for you!   

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8 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Hey eThErEaL!  God bless you!

I do agree that each prophet of God has qualities that make them distinct from others.  Those who performed miracles are seen to have been done through God's power.  When taking a closer look at Jesus I still see him being distinct from all the rest, some major points being that he was born of a virgin (not conceived by a human mom and dad), never sinned, and was called the Messiah, some qualities among others that are not consistent with other human prophets we read about.  

Hey tdawg626,  May God bless you too!

Well, as I said above, those don't really make Jesus distinct.  

As Muslims we believe all Prophets are sinless. 

Adam was also not born of a biological father and nor was he born of a biological mother.

This doesn't make Jesus God, is what I am trying to say.  All you are telling me are good reasons why he is ONE OF THE special prophets of God.  Which we as Muslims accept.

You haven't provided a good enough reason for why Jesus should be considered to be God or singled out as a "Son of God".

Quote

If you would like to and have time, I would like to invite you to read this short article by a seminary professor to see what you think. I'm happy to read anything you would like me to as well.  God knows I'm working on reading the Quran lol (having a baby does not make this easy lol). 

Anyway, here is the article https://sbts-wordpress-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/equip/uploads/2010/02/sbjt_081_geisler.pdf

I just read the chart and can already see gross errors.  For example, The Prophet Muhammad (S) is sinful? No.  The Prophet Muhammad (S) did not ascend to heaven with his corporeal body?  No.

So, I am sorry to say but you are being misled by the article.  with all due respect.  

Quote

Hope you have a great day.  Praying for you!   

I hope you have a lovely day as well.  I am praying for you too.

Edited by eThErEaL

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On 5/24/2020 at 8:42 PM, eThErEaL said:

Thank you for your well wishes.  

There is something unique about each prophet of God.  Not only about Jesus. Even Adam didn’t have a biological father.  And not only did he not have a father but neither did he have a biological mother.  Does this make Adam “supernatural”?  
 

But nevertheless...I agree that Indeed there was something special about Jesus, but every Prophet had a special uniqueness.  Moses could “speak to God”, “He split the sea”.  Abraham was flung in a fire and the fire was made cool.  Solomon could speak to animals.  David could put his hand in fire and shape Molten iron.  Now what makes the final Prophet (S) unique?  Muslims say, his utter modesty despite him “physically or corporeally ascending” to what is beyond the Heavens and being One with God.  From a Muslim point of view, the Prophet Muhammad (S) could have done what all the previous prophets did, he had the capacity for it, but out of modesty he refrained from it.  Nevertheless his uniqueness is his ascent to what is beyond the heavens and in the final revelation (Quran).

Hi!

I was wondering if in Islam Adam is thought to have sinned?  I know Allah forgave him, but nevertheless, did he sin?  Just curious.  I guess we will simply need to agree to disagree regarding the uniqueness of Jesus.  What most Christians observe in the Bible about Jesus is yes, a prophet (because the Bible does call him that) but also the Messiah, Son of God, Son of Man, and Yahweh, God himself.  We believe miracles were done through others, of course and Adam was the first human creation of God so naturally he would not have a mother or father.  But when Christians look at the whole of scripture as a story and look carefully at the the prophesies and how Jesus is describes, it's radically different than how any other prophet or person used by God is described. I am aware that Muslims have difficulty in seeing this but the Bible does talk about how the Spirit opens our eyes to see the mystery revealed in scripture.  That is something not talked about that much between Christians and Muslims, however, it is something that we believe.  It's similar to Jesus talking in parables and only certain people being able to understand it.  Jesus and the disciples have discussions about this very issue.  In first Corinthians our scriptures talk about how to a lot of people the message of Christ being crucified is "foolishness" and so as I chat I am aware of this fact.  Now, I know that we may disagree on this as well but this is what Christians believe.  

Be safe, and God bless you!

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On 5/29/2020 at 2:03 PM, tdawg626 said:

I was wondering if in Islam Adam is thought to have sinned?

There are various theological positions with regards to this.  

Some say he did not sin (at all).  Some say that his "sin" is incomparable to the typical sin of a non prophet.  The prophets are on such an incomparably high level (as compared to the rest of humanity) that what is considered a sin on their level would be considered a meritorious deed on our level. 

Whatever the case is, Islam rejects the whole notion of "inheriting" sin.  From the Islamic perspective, people do not inherit the sins of others or carry the burden of other people's sins.  

On 5/29/2020 at 2:03 PM, tdawg626 said:

I know Allah forgave him, but nevertheless, did he sin?  Just curious.  I guess we will simply need to agree to disagree regarding the uniqueness of Jesus.  What most Christians observe in the Bible about Jesus is yes, a prophet (because the Bible does call him that) but also the Messiah, Son of God, Son of Man, and Yahweh, God himself.

The Quran calls Jesus a Masiah, but this in no way means "Son of God".    

On 5/29/2020 at 2:03 PM, tdawg626 said:

We believe miracles were done through others, of course and Adam was the first human creation of God so naturally he would not have a mother or father.  But when Christians look at the whole of scripture as a story and look carefully at the the prophesies and how Jesus is describes, it's radically different than how any other prophet or person used by God is described. I am aware that Muslims have difficulty in seeing this but the Bible does talk about how the Spirit opens our eyes to see the mystery revealed in scripture.  That is something not talked about that much between Christians and Muslims, however, it is something that we believe.  It's similar to Jesus talking in parables and only certain people being able to understand it.  Jesus and the disciples have discussions about this very issue.  In first Corinthians our scriptures talk about how to a lot of people the message of Christ being crucified is "foolishness" and so as I chat I am aware of this fact.  Now, I know that we may disagree on this as well but this is what Christians believe.  

Be safe, and God bless you!

I respect your views.  

May God bless you too.

 

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3 hours ago, islam25 said:

Giving up ones indentity.

Sacrifcing ones existence .

Interesting response... 

would you be able to explain further?

God bless you!

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22 hours ago, islam25 said:

You no more remains you .

So like giving up your life for another? Or taking the blame or punishment for someone when you’re innocent?

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On 6/4/2020 at 9:09 PM, eThErEaL said:

Some say he did not sin (at all).  Some say that his "sin" is incomparable to the typical sin of a non prophet.  The prophets are on such an incomparably high level (as compared to the rest of humanity) that what is considered a sin on their level would be considered a meritorious deed on our level. 

Thanks for this explanation! I was not aware there were different interpretations. In your perspective, is there a Muslim on earth today that has not sinned? 

 

On 6/4/2020 at 9:09 PM, eThErEaL said:

The Quran calls Jesus a Masiah, but this in no way means "Son of God".    

I was aware of this fact, but I guess my concern is always the fact that, despite the Quran instructing Muslims to read the Injil and the Taurat, and more or less to take the people of the book seriously, they have disregard both largely. 
 

Now I know that Muslims have reasons for not believing in these books (at least completely) but I feel that that poses major problems. If you believed that the Quran was only partly true or corrupted in some way, who would be able to say what was true or not? How could you even trust it as God’s words if you were confident it had been messed with? In Islam, just as in Christianity, we must have faith that people treated the scriptures honestly and preserved what was said, even if we both don’t have our originals. 
 

By the time Of Muhammad we already had our scriptures so surely Allah would not have wanted Muslims to read the same scriptures we have today if he knew they were corrupted. He would not have wanted Muslims to engage with the people of the book if they were believing in corruption. I understand some believe in a lost book but no one has ever found that book, and the books that Christians and Jews were following are the same as in the days of the prophet. So this confuses me. 
 

You believe that God preserves his word. You believe that God preserved the Quran despite attacks, etc. Why would he not have preserved the very words he instructed you to read as well? I feel like if I were a Muslim that would bother me a bit because even the corruption of man cannot stop God from preserving whatever he wants to. And I believe that’s what he did with the Bible despite 250-300 years of intense persecution, destruction of Satan and corrupt ideas along the way. 
 

Now, I understand that people have different views on what the scriptures mean. Obviously some are way off and some are right. You will always have that, even with the Quran. But interpreting differently what you believe to be accurate and interpreting something you believe to be inaccurate are way different. 
 

Our scriptures call Jesus Messiah too, but also Son of God, Son of Man, I am, good shepherd, light of the world, Lord God, etc. I believe this not only because I read and study about the last 2,000 years and see historically how people have worked to preserve the Bible, but also because I believe God has been in this process. And I know we may disagree on how great scholarship would have been, but still the question is, would not God have preserved the words that he instructed Muslims to read? Even if we had no evidence and God simply said it, wouldn’t that be enough?

Just some thoughts...

I appreciate you saying you respect my beliefs. I respect your too and I believe we can have good and respectful conversations regarding our faiths without having to insult each other in any way. Unfortunately, that has not been the case with some in this Chatroom, but I thank you for your respect! 
 

God bless you richly!

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10 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Thanks for this explanation! I was not aware there were different interpretations. In your perspective, is there a Muslim on earth today that has not sinned? 

 

I was aware of this fact, but I guess my concern is always the fact that, despite the Quran instructing Muslims to read the Injil and the Taurat, and more or less to take the people of the book seriously, they have disregard both largely. 
 

Now I know that Muslims have reasons for not believing in these books (at least completely) but I feel that that poses major problems. If you believed that the Quran was only partly true or corrupted in some way, who would be able to say what was true or not? How could you even trust it as God’s words if you were confident it had been messed with? In Islam, just as in Christianity, we must have faith that people treated the scriptures honestly and preserved what was said, even if we both don’t have our originals. 
 

By the time Of Muhammad we already had our scriptures so surely Allah would not have wanted Muslims to read the same scriptures we have today if he knew they were corrupted. He would not have wanted Muslims to engage with the people of the book if they were believing in corruption. I understand some believe in a lost book but no one has ever found that book, and the books that Christians and Jews were following are the same as in the days of the prophet. So this confuses me. 
 

You believe that God preserves his word. You believe that God preserved the Quran despite attacks, etc. Why would he not have preserved the very words he instructed you to read as well? I feel like if I were a Muslim that would bother me a bit because even the corruption of man cannot stop God from preserving whatever he wants to. And I believe that’s what he did with the Bible despite 250-300 years of intense persecution, destruction of Satan and corrupt ideas along the way. 
 

Now, I understand that people have different views on what the scriptures mean. Obviously some are way off and some are right. You will always have that, even with the Quran. But interpreting differently what you believe to be accurate and interpreting something you believe to be inaccurate are way different. 
 

Our scriptures call Jesus Messiah too, but also Son of God, Son of Man, I am, good shepherd, light of the world, Lord God, etc. I believe this not only because I read and study about the last 2,000 years and see historically how people have worked to preserve the Bible, but also because I believe God has been in this process. And I know we may disagree on how great scholarship would have been, but still the question is, would not God have preserved the words that he instructed Muslims to read? Even if we had no evidence and God simply said it, wouldn’t that be enough?

Just some thoughts...

I appreciate you saying you respect my beliefs. I respect your too and I believe we can have good and respectful conversations regarding our faiths without having to insult each other in any way. Unfortunately, that has not been the case with some in this Chatroom, but I thank you for your respect! 
 

God bless you richly!

What do you mean by son of God?

If you believe God has son.

Then there should be father of God too.

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13 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

In your perspective, is there a Muslim on earth today that has not sinned?

Hi in our perspective on earth  Today only Imam Mahdi (aj)  has not committed sin & he won't  do it in future but in Sunni perspective  he is an ordinary man that Allah will forgive all of his sins in one night. 

13 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

I was aware of this fact, but I guess my concern is always the fact that, despite the Quran instructing Muslims to read the Injil and the Taurat, and more or less to take the people of the book seriously, they have disregard both largely. 

Quran instructs us to learn about any religion even encourages us to travel  & see remaining of sinful & Idol worshipers to  take lessons from their fate but we must not follow their footsteps to repeat same mistakes of them.

13 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

By the time Of Muhammad we already had our scriptures so surely Allah would not have wanted Muslims to read the same scriptures we have today if he knew they were corrupted. He would not have wanted Muslims to engage with the people of the book if they were believing in corruption. I understand some believe in a lost book but no one has ever found that book, and the books that Christians and Jews were following are the same as in the days of the prophet. So this confuses me. 

It's about learning  from their mistakes & not repeating their mistakes.

 

13 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

You believe that God preserves his word. You believe that God preserved the Quran despite attacks, etc. Why would he not have preserved the very words he instructed you to read as well? I feel like if I were a Muslim that would bother me a bit because even the corruption of man cannot stop God from preserving whatever he wants to. And I believe that’s what he did with the Bible despite 250-300 years of intense persecution, destruction of Satan and corrupt ideas along the way.

it's a great sign & miracle as you can see text of Quran never changed through whole history although after demise of prophet Muhammad  (pbu) every one in muslim community  interpreted it based on his understanding from it but the most corrupt & evil persons couldn't add a word   or remove  a word  from it but you can see different  interpretations from it also every Islamic book & source  except  Quran faced changing & challenges .  

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22 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

In your perspective, is there a Muslim on earth today that has not sinned? 

Children below the age of awareness.

22 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

So like giving up your life for another? Or taking the blame or punishment for someone when you’re innocent?

Sometimes giving up your life for another does not involve death. In any event, it isn't the only way to show ultimate love. Ultimate love is any 100% selfless act. It is rare, but ordinary humans are capable. 

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On 6/7/2020 at 10:16 AM, notme said:

Children below the age of awareness.

Sometimes giving up your life for another does not involve death. In any event, it isn't the only way to show ultimate love. Ultimate love is any 100% selfless act. It is rare, but ordinary humans are capable. 

Notme, 

I completely agree with you that it does not always involve death.  In fact, if I wanted to thoroughly love my wife and child I wouldn't just be looking for ways to die.  Giving up your life without dying can be extremely loving.  But I still think that even the most loving person or being (under the correct circumstances) could be even more loving by giving up their life.  I don't think the average person has to make this kind of decision but the reason I believe that's the ultimate form of love (if done in genuine love) is giving up one's life for another.  This example doesn't totally relate, but you may have heard of what is going on with the whole George Floyd situation.  People are upset when another is racially profiled or experiences some type of injustice towards them, but when someone dies it's a completely different level because that person ceases to exist on this planet.  It's also true in the military.  Dying for one's country while serving (especially in the act of protecting others) is like the ultimate form of sacrifice.  You gave your life, not just your service!  I think that there are people who are more loving and less loving.  Most people will only be required to love as much as they can without ever having to choose between their life and another's.  If they don't lose their life for another it does not mean they did not live a loving life or never do selfless acts.  That's not what I'm saying.  What I am saying is that it is much more difficult to give your life because it's the biggest and last thing you can give.  There is no longer room to give anything else when your life is gone.  If someone gives their life for selfish reasons or for unloving reasons, I would not say that's the ultimate form of love.  I don't have any examples for that, but there may be cases.  I am talking about the cases of dying to keep your family alive when it's the only option.

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On 6/7/2020 at 1:32 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi in our perspective on earth  Today only Imam Mahdi (aj)  has not committed sin & he won't  do it in future but in Sunni perspective  he is an ordinary man that Allah will forgive all of his sins in one night. 

Quran instructs us to learn about any religion even encourages us to travel  & see remaining of sinful & Idol worshipers to  take lessons from their fate but we must not follow their footsteps to repeat same mistakes of them.

It's about learning  from their mistakes & not repeating their mistakes.

 

it's a great sign & miracle as you can see text of Quran never changed through whole history although after demise of prophet Muhammad  (pbu) every one in muslim community  interpreted it based on his understanding from it but the most corrupt & evil persons couldn't add a word   or remove  a word  from it but you can see different  interpretations from it also every Islamic book & source  except  Quran faced changing & challenges .  

Hi, 

In your opinion, with all that the Quran says about the people of the book and their books, do you believe it was to only learn about them and their mistakes? To be honest, when I read the passages regarding the books and the people of the book, it seems more like Allah would like Muslims to learn from the people and the books.  Again, I'm confused as to why Allah would mention this at all, believing that the books and people were corrupted.  In the Bible we are instructed to stay away from false teachers and to stay close to the gospel that was preached and taught by those who followed Jesus.  At the time the Quran was written, the Bible was intact and now we even are able to go back hundreds of years before and see earlier documents.  Allah knows this when the Quran is written but it seems rather strange to me to instruct a people to more than just interact with people and books that could potentially lead them astray.  The language in the Quran doesn't seem to just suggest simply a casual read of the books or conversation with the people of the book, yet rather a serious nudge to gain knowledge from them.  This is something that confuses me...

I appreciate your response!

God bless you   

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On 6/6/2020 at 10:11 PM, islam25 said:

What do you mean by son of God?

If you believe God has son.

Then there should be father of God too.

Hi, 

In the Bible (And today I read an article by a Muslim who noted similarities in language in Islam) the title Son of God when applied to Jesus is highlighting the fact he is a King, has a unique relationship to God, and is connected with Old Testament passages.  As many others here have noted, this title is absolutely used in both the Old and New Testaments in different ways and most times has no connection to Jesus or deity.  People, angels, etc. are called son(s) or god(s) but when it is applied to Jesus it is different.  Son of....is also used to describe other people and places and has no familiar connotations.  For example sometimes Israel is called a son of God or groups of people are called for example, "sons of thunder."  So the phrase "Son of..." does not always pertain to having a father or a mother who give birth to a child.  In the New Testament Jesus is called the Son of God a lot.  It's important to look at the contexts of the passages because in Jesus' example he is claiming not to have a father that had relationship with someone and gave birth to Jesus.  Rather, he is referring back to the Old Testament to show his listeners who he was. Yes, the Bible shows confusion regarding the title with all who heard him, including the religious teachers and his own disciples.  His own disciples don't seem to fully understand who he is till the very end of the gospels and beginning of Acts.  It is not always easy to see how this title is Kingly and divine because Jesus does not really always speak in such clear language so that all who heard him could understand.  But when he was on earth he was doing things and claiming to do things only the Old Testament God could do.  He also was calling himself title and names that belonged to God himself.  This is why the title like, Son of God and Son of Man infuriated the religious teachers.  They knew he was "making himself equal with God (John) and this is why they kept on trying to kill him until they did.   His references to his titles always stemmed back to Old Testament passages that many of his listeners would have known to be passages about God or someone divine.  Jesus, his disciples, the angels, a Roman soldier, and demons call him the Son of God.  Upon examining the context, it becomes clear that they're not trying to call him a mere man.  Some are accusing him of blasphemy because of this title and others, the Roman soldier realizes that "truly this was the Son of God," etc.  

So Jesus does not have a father in the sense of giving birth to a son. Using the example of Israel being a "Son of God," we can know that Israel is a country and a people and did not have a father.  "Sons of Thunder," are not products of thunder and lightening having relations.  "Son of God," in reference to Jesus does not mean he was created.  It is a reference to him coming from God and even being him.  So, I would agree with you that God did not create a son or give birth to a son.  The Bible teaches Jesus is eternal, was always with God and was God.  

God bless you!

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2 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Dying for one's country while serving (especially in the act of protecting others) is like the ultimate form of sacrifice. 

It is romanticized like that. 

I'm guessing you've never been in the military? 

 

2 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

If someone gives their life for selfish reasons or for unloving reasons, I would not say that's the ultimate form of love. 

Suicide, for example, or addiction, or thrill. 

I'm not saying dying to protect another person or to protect your ideology isn't an act of love, just that it isn't the greatest. It is not greater than fighting to remain alive to protect another person or to save your ideology, like following the example if Imam Sajjad, the one who survived the Massacre at Karbala. 

Edited by notme
Typo

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Love means "having relationship".

The moment a person projects the Light of God (Greatness of God) in his actions...that is the Ultimate Love (Ultimate relationship).

All Prophets projected Light of God in their actions.

If we love the Prophets, our actions resemble the Prophet behaviors.

If we love the worldly things, then our behaviors will show it.

Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the final Prophet is called "Habibi illahi aalamin"...because every actions that he took were based on inspirations from Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  His relationship to God is direct...that is the Ultimate of all Love.

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8 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Hi, 

In the Bible (And today I read an article by a Muslim who noted similarities in language in Islam) the title Son of God when applied to Jesus is highlighting the fact he is a King, has a unique relationship to God, and is connected with Old Testament passages.  As many others here have noted, this title is absolutely used in both the Old and New Testaments in different ways and most times has no connection to Jesus or deity.  People, angels, etc. are called son(s) or god(s) but when it is applied to Jesus it is different.  Son of....is also used to describe other people and places and has no familiar connotations.  For example sometimes Israel is called a son of God or groups of people are called for example, "sons of thunder."  So the phrase "Son of..." does not always pertain to having a father or a mother who give birth to a child.  In the New Testament Jesus is called the Son of God a lot.  It's important to look at the contexts of the passages because in Jesus' example he is claiming not to have a father that had relationship with someone and gave birth to Jesus.  Rather, he is referring back to the Old Testament to show his listeners who he was. Yes, the Bible shows confusion regarding the title with all who heard him, including the religious teachers and his own disciples.  His own disciples don't seem to fully understand who he is till the very end of the gospels and beginning of Acts.  It is not always easy to see how this title is Kingly and divine because Jesus does not really always speak in such clear language so that all who heard him could understand.  But when he was on earth he was doing things and claiming to do things only the Old Testament God could do.  He also was calling himself title and names that belonged to God himself.  This is why the title like, Son of God and Son of Man infuriated the religious teachers.  They knew he was "making himself equal with God (John) and this is why they kept on trying to kill him until they did.   His references to his titles always stemmed back to Old Testament passages that many of his listeners would have known to be passages about God or someone divine.  Jesus, his disciples, the angels, a Roman soldier, and demons call him the Son of God.  Upon examining the context, it becomes clear that they're not trying to call him a mere man.  Some are accusing him of blasphemy because of this title and others, the Roman soldier realizes that "truly this was the Son of God," etc.  

So Jesus does not have a father in the sense of giving birth to a son. Using the example of Israel being a "Son of God," we can know that Israel is a country and a people and did not have a father.  "Sons of Thunder," are not products of thunder and lightening having relations.  "Son of God," in reference to Jesus does not mean he was created.  It is a reference to him coming from God and even being him.  So, I would agree with you that God did not create a son or give birth to a son.  The Bible teaches Jesus is eternal, was always with God and was God.  

God bless you!

I could not clearly understood what you want to convey

But I will summarise what you tried to convey .

1.The jesus is not son of God (in the meaning we consider here)

2.Even his descipling didn't know truly know who jesus is.

3.Jesus can do acts which only God can do.

We have no problem if Jesus can do acts that only Allah can (By will of God).

Not only Jesus other Prophets too have done acts which only God can do.( By will of God).

Every Prophet has unique relationship with Allah and that is not specific to Jesus only.

 

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9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

At the time the Quran was written, the Bible was intact and now we even are able to go back hundreds of years before and see earlier documents. 

Hi it's not true also prophet Muhammad (pbu) debated about it with highest ranking priests from Najran in Yemen that they debated with each other in Medina that prophet Muhammad (pbu) proved to them that the Bible is not intact also refuted trinity  but when the priests didn't  accept his logic so he invited them to a divine duel that recorded as " Mubahila " which he invited them to curse each other with maximum  of their power so priests gathered an army of pious  Christians  with whole of versions of Bible Symboles like cross but prophet  Muhammad (pbu) just bring himself & her daughter &  his cousin & his two grandchildren so when honest pious priests saw them recognized if prophet Muhammad (pbu) & his family curse them then all Christians & Christanity will erase from face of earth so they accepted defeat but made a peace deal to keep their faith & pay Jaziya .

 

9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

was always with God and was God.  

we have same statement in Quran as below but it doesn't  made anyone  as son of God anyway the most highest status is as prophet Isa (as)[Jesus] said :

 He said, ‘Indeed I am a servant of Allah! He has given me the Book and made me a prophet. (30) 

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/19:30

Quote

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un (Arabic: إِنَّا لِلَّٰهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ‎, ʾinnā li-llāhi wa-ʾinna ʾilayhi rājiʿūna) is a phrase mentioned in verse 2:156[a] of the Qur'an meaning "Verily we belong to God, and verily to Him do we return.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inna_Lillahi_wa_inna_ilayhi_raji'un

 

9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

  Again, I'm confused as to why Allah would mention this at all, believing that the books and people were corrupted.

in Iran we have a qoute from Rumi (Moulana) that says " how you learnt good behavior  ? he replied  I learnt  it from bad people" ie  means by doing reverse action of bad people he became  a good manthat in Quran Allah mentioned  multiple examples from Bani Israel that how they chose  as "chosen people" but in every test they failed & corrupted until they lose blessing of Allah so every muslim must learn story of them in Quran & acts in opposite of them .

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On 5/30/2020 at 4:03 AM, tdawg626 said:

Yahweh, God himself. 

No where do you find Jesus saying I am God or Yahweh, not even in the Gospel according to John and I’ve proven that clear as daylight. 

 

10 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

He also was calling himself title and names that belonged to God himself.  This is why the title like, Son of God and Son of Man infuriated the religious teachers. 

So Prophet Ezekiel is God ?? 

Ezekiel 2

1And He said to me; ‘Son of Man, stand on your feet, and I shall speak with you.’

Ezekiel 2

3And He said to me; ‘Son of Man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to rebellious nations, which rebelled against Me; they and their fathers rebelled against Me to this very day.’

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, not a Son of Man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

“Son of Man” is idiom for “I am Human” even some of your Christian bible explain the Idiom instead of translating it. 

prophet Ezekiel also raised the dead Alive he must be God?? 

Ezekiel 37

4And He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.'

5So says the Lord God to these bones; Behold, I will cause spirit to enter into you, and you shall live!

6And I will lay sinews upon you, and I will make flesh grow over you and cover you with skin and put breath into you, and you will live, and you will then know that I am the Lord."

7So I prophesied as I was commanded, and there arose a noise when I prophesied, and behold a commotion, and the bones came together, bone to its bone!

8And I looked, and lo! sinews were upon them, and flesh came upon them, and skin covered them from above, but there was still no spirit in them.

9Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the spirit, prophesy, O Son of Man, and say to the spirit, 'So says the Lord God: From four sides come, O spirit, and breathe into these slain ones that they may live.' "

10And I prophesied as He had commanded me, and the spirit came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, a very great army, exceedingly so.

11Then He said to me, "Son of Man, these bones are all the house of Israel. Behold they say, 'Our bones have become dried up, our hope is lost, we are clean cut off to ourselves.'

12Therefore, prophesy and say to them, So says the Lord God: Lo! I open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves as My people, and bring you home to the land of Israel.

Jesus was no different to prophet Ezekiel 

John 11:

3So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Master, the one you love is sick.”

4When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s messenger may be glorified through it.” 5Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, 7and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”

8“But RABBI,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”

9Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

12His disciples replied, “Master, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

16Then Thomas said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

Jesus Comforts the Sisters of Lazarus

17On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

21“Master,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22BUT I KNOW THAT EVEN NOW GOD WILL GIVE YOU(jesus) WHATEVER YOU ASK.”

23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the [eternal] life. The one who believes in me will live....26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27“Yes, Master,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the messager of God, who is to come into the world.”

28After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” 29When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. 30Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.

32When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Master, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

33When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34“Where have you laid him?” he asked.

“Come and see, Master,” they replied.

35Jesus wept.

36Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”

37But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?”

Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead

38Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39“Take away the stone,” he said.

“But, Master,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”

40Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “FATHER(Allaha), I THANK YOU THAT YOU(Allaha) HAVE HEARD ME. 42I KNEW THAT YOU(Allaha) ALWAYS HEAR ME, BUT I SAID THIS FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PEOPLE STANDING HERE, THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE THAT YOU(Allaha) SENT ME.”

43When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!”44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”

 

Did jesus do miracles by permission of God ? 

John 11:22

“22BUT I KNOW THAT EVEN NOW GOD WILL GIVE YOU(jesus) WHATEVER YOU ASK.”

yes most definitely. 

why did such miracle take place ?

John 11:4

“...it is for God’s glory so that God’s messenger may be glorified through it.”

John 11:41-42

41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “FATHER(Allaha), I THANK YOU(Allaha) THAT YOU(Allaha) HAVE HEARD ME(jesus). 42I KNEW THAT YOU(Allaha) ALWAYS HEAR ME(jesus), BUT I SAID THIS FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PEOPLE STANDING HERE, THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE THAT YOU(Allaha) SENT ME(jesus).”

so that the people know that Jesus is God’s Messenger and revere Jesus. 

 

11 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

They knew he was "making himself equal with God (John) and this is why they kept on trying to kill

Very desperate attempt even after Jesus giving a clear explanation. 

John 10:27-39

“27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life(salvation), and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I HAVE SHOWN YOU MANY GOOD WORKS FROM THE FATHER(Allaha). For which of these do you stone me?”

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ? 35IF HE(Allaha) CALLED THEM ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ TO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME—AND SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE SET ASIDE— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 

38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.”

 

In john 10:32 we see that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus had meant by “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:29). And in john 10:33 they accused him of blasphemy. Now, had Jesus been God, or had he and God been one in a literal sense then he wouldn’t have hesitated to clarify the matter at that point. Jesus at that point said, “Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?” What he was trying to say was that if the Jews called “I and my Father are one” blasphemy then they should call what was written in their law “You are gods” blasphemy too.

The reasoning behind this is “You are elohim” does not mean that you, the Jewish Messengers, are Gods, it is rather an expression. It just means that you are godly people. The same applies to “I and my Father are one.” It does not mean that Jesus is God or that he and God are the same literally. It’s just an expression meaning they are one in purpose.

 

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ? 35IF HE(Allaha) CALLED THEM ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ TO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME—AND SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE SET ASIDE— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 

In verse 34 jesus crystal clearly points out that Pslams 82:6 is about God’s Messengers (Messengers receive divine scripture like David,Moses,job,Ezekiel,Enoch,Noah. Prophets of God don’t receive any divine scripture rather they confirm the truth contained within the scripture), then in verse 36,right after, jesus says,”WHAT ABOUT THE ONE WHOM THE FATHER(Allaha) SET APART AS HIS VERY OWN [REPRESENTATIVE] AND SENT IN TO THE WORLD?” Then jesus takes advantage of Psalms 82:6 that he used to refute their false accusation and says, “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.“ as Pslams 82:6 calls the Messengers of God “sons of the Most Hight(El Elyon)”. In verse 37 jesus makes it clear that he does these good work with not his own authority rather with God’s authority and Jesus tells them to not believe in him if he does these without God’s authority, Jesus was simply carrying out God’s commands and purpose. Which he make clear in the next verse, “38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.”

it is clear as daylight jesus was just a messiah, prophet, Messenger of God. 

11 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Jesus is eternal, was always with God

That’s Dualism right their.

 

jesus himself rebuked spirits that called him the “Son of God” 

Luke 4:41 

“41Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Messiah.”

It is clear that Jesus rebuked them because they were calling him the literal son of God when deep down they knew he was the Messiah not the literal son of God as the verse clearly states. Jesus was already preaching and healing so demons and later on the Pharisees are trying their hardest to give a accusation in order to get him executed so Jesus was constantly explaining himself and being clever with his preaching. Verse 43 jesus explicitly says he must go preach the the good news of the covenant of God and in verse 42 people are tying to make him stay. So in short Jesus was already preaching and he had to face false accusations from the demons then later on the teachers of the law and the Pharisees.

 

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15 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi it's not true also prophet Muhammad (pbu) debated about it with highest ranking priests from Najran in Yemen that they debated with each other in Medina that prophet Muhammad (pbu) proved to them that the Bible is not intact also refuted trinity  but when the priests didn't  accept his logic so he invited them to a divine duel that recorded as " Mubahila " which he invited them to curse each other with maximum  of their power so priests gathered an army of pious  Christians  with whole of versions of Bible Symboles like cross but prophet  Muhammad (pbu) just bring himself & her daughter &  his cousin & his two grandchildren so when honest pious priests saw them recognized if prophet Muhammad (pbu) & his family curse them then all Christians & Christanity will erase from face of earth so they accepted defeat but made a peace deal to keep their faith & pay Jaziya .

Hi, 

I learned something new!  Where can I read this debate?

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