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In the Name of God بسم الله

Statistically our logic can't be correct

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Posted (edited)

I would like to get some counter arguments to this idea...

If we look at the number of religions, and then sects, and then sects withing sects, we can conclude that most religious or believing people are wrong about their own beliefs.

And the reason many are wrong about their beliefs is because there is some error in thinking, they are normally unable use correct logic for whatever reason.

Thus we can conclude that most believers have faulty logic on average as almost all religions/sects are wrong or go about contradicting each other...

so the question is, as believers we are all part of this and it implies most of us have faulty logic?

how can we trust ourselves?

Edited by khamosh21
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Don't have an argument but something relevant to add. I hope someone pulls up this narration because I only heard it, but I heard something about how when Imam Mahdi comes he will bring with him the most correct form of Islam and we will be shocked at all the differences between what we thought was correct and what is actually correct. We're not so arrogant as to say we know it all and are 100% right, we think that the conclusions we've drawn are closer to the truth than others. That's why the term "obligatory precaution" crops up so often

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7 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

Don't have an argument but something relevant to add. I hope someone pulls up this narration because I only heard it, but I heard something about how when Imam Mahdi comes he will bring with him the most correct form of Islam and we will be shocked at all the differences between what we thought was correct and what is actually correct. We're not so arrogant as to say we know it all and are 100% right, we think that the conclusions we've drawn are closer to the truth than others. That's why the term "obligatory precaution" crops up so often

That may be ok in Ahkam/Laws, but what about in Aqayid/beliefs...

 

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Posted (edited)

If you take all people that beleive in a creator against atheists. Then we can say logic is enough to come to a conclusion of a creator and divine being(s).

From there it should be evidence based and falsifiable.

As can be seen by Nabi Ibrahim in Qur'an 

Surah 6 verse 75 onwards.

Surah 21 verse 58-63

Same thing in science common sense and logic can help create a theory but then evidence is required.

 

Edited by Warilla
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22 minutes ago, Warilla said:

If you take all people that beleive in a creator against atheists. Then we can say logic is enough to come to a conclusion of a creator and divine being(s).

From there it should be evidence based and falsifiable.

As can be seen by Nabi Ibrahim in Qur'an 

Surah 6 verse 75 onwards.

Surah 21 verse 58-63

Same thing in science common sense and logic can help create a theory but then evidence is required.

 

We have to take into account the impact of environment and where person grew up. although many people are able to break away and convert from their childhood beliefs, statistically speaking most people stay within their own belief system? thus continuing to be wrong...

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4 hours ago, Warilla said:

If you take all people that beleive in a creator against atheists. Then we can say logic is enough to come to a conclusion of a creator and divine being(s).

From there it should be evidence based and falsifiable.

As can be seen by Nabi Ibrahim in Qur'an 

Surah 6 verse 75 onwards.

Surah 21 verse 58-63

Same thing in science common sense and logic can help create a theory but then evidence is required.

 

If what you are saying was easily done, we would find more and more people leaving their beliefs, whereas majority prefer to never even think beyond their beliefs, and as stated above most people stay within their childhood beliefs or at best reform/distort/or let go of their beliefs.

one scenrario is once you realize the lack of logic and evidence within your own belief system, you realize every believer is suffering from the same delusions of being right... they all have similar errors in thinking...

 

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18 hours ago, Warilla said:

If you take all people that beleive in a creator against atheists. Then we can say logic is enough to come to a conclusion of a creator and divine being(s).

You have rightly quoted the approach for learning the truth. Evidences are also necessary to verify this approach to confirm the  belief in the light of the standards outline in the verses of Quran and hadith of the divinely appointed prophets and imams..

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7 hours ago, Warilla said:

If you take all people that beleive in a creator against atheists. Then we can say logic is enough to come to a conclusion of a creator and divine being(s).

From there it should be evidence based and falsifiable.

As can be seen by Nabi Ibrahim in Qur'an 

Surah 6 verse 75 onwards.

Surah 21 verse 58-63

Same thing in science common sense and logic can help create a theory but then evidence is required.

 

this really makes no difference, because the major disagreements between religious people aren't over being a creator or not... there are disagreements over the characteristics of the Creator, and the lack of logic used is centered around what you are calling "evidence" - each religion and sect claims they have the "evidence" and "logic", this is what keeps people hooked.

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18 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

If we look at the number of religions, and then sects, and then sects withing sects, we can conclude that most religious or believing people are wrong about their own beliefs.

 

Is this statement is correct?  Blanket accusations to believing people are wrong!!!

 All religions have some value of truth in them.  Maybe the percentage is low as compared to others because of some many reasons. 

Therefore, we have to respect believing people.  At least they have a belief.  Labeling them as wrong means we are making wrong statement.

18 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I would like to get some counter arguments to this idea...

If we look at the number of religions, and then sects, and then sects withing sects, we can conclude that most religious or believing people are wrong about their own beliefs.

And the reason many are wrong about their beliefs is because there is some error in thinking, they are normally unable use correct logic for whatever reason.

Thus we can conclude that most believers have faulty logic on average as almost all religions/sects are wrong or go about contradicting each other...

so the question is, as believers we are all part of this and it implies most of us have faulty logic?

how can we trust ourselves?

And the conclusion, believers have faulty logic!!!  That in itself is faulty logic.  Only Iblis have faulty logic because all his life he was worshipping God and knew how correct God is.  But when God asked Iblis to adhere to His instruction, Iblis failed and turned in Syaitan.

Human have perfect logic, otherwise they are crazy.  If we are making erroneous conclusion or deduction from the logic  it maybe due incorrect information that they got and processed or certain influences/interest.

The most important thing is to give human correct information that is based on truth...glad tidings and warnings from bad conclusions.  They will use logic to arrive on good conclusion.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, layman said:

Is this statement is correct?  Blanket accusations to believing people are wrong!!!

 All religions have some value of truth in them.  Maybe the percentage is low as compared to others because of some many reasons. 

Therefore, we have to respect believing people.  At least they have a belief.  Labeling them as wrong means we are making wrong statement.

 

so having at least some belief, no matter how incorrect, deserves respect?... well the issue is nothing to do with respect.

Islam considers Hindus najis...  is this respect?

Labelling Hindus as wrong is a "wrong statement"?

Even some atheist beliefs have truth in them... maybe the percentage of truth is low as you've said

Edited by khamosh21
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

If what you are saying was easily done, we would find more and more people leaving their beliefs, whereas majority prefer to never even think beyond their beliefs, and as stated above most people stay within their childhood beliefs or at best reform/distort/or let go of their beliefs.

one scenrario is once you realize the lack of logic and evidence within your own belief system, you realize every believer is suffering from the same delusions of being right... they all have similar errors in thinking...

 

Not everyone tries to understand science in this modern age. There are people who believe the earth is flat. 

I think the process is easy. Over coming bthe ego us difficult.

No one can ever claim iblis did not believe in Tawheed. But his ego was such that he rebelled.

Israelites were given messengers and miracles one after another.

It's not like Allah hasn't given a level playing field.

Man has ego, Allah has given every type of intellect and evidence.

It's why disbelief and disobedience is such a big mistake.

First step , step on your ego, second step , step into heaven (paraphrased from Imam Ali)

Edited by Warilla
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9 minutes ago, Warilla said:

Not everyone tries to understand science in this modern age. There are people who believe the earth is flat. 

Im not saying science is an alternative to religion as you might be thinking... and im not putting a scientist vs believer...

I realized grouping people into believers is not correct... 

it seems ALL human beings suffer errors in thinking...

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3 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Im not saying science is an alternative to religion as you might be thinking... and im not putting a scientist vs believer...

I realized grouping people into believers is not correct... 

it seems ALL human beings suffer errors in thinking...

I used science to highlight ego. It's errors in ego not thinking.

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4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

so having at least some belief, no matter how incorrect, deserves respect?... well the issue is nothing to do with respect.

Islam considers Hindus najis...  is this respect?

Labelling Hindus as wrong is a "wrong statement"?

Even some atheist beliefs have truth in them... maybe the percentage of truth is low as you've said

So muslims must avoid Hindus because they are so-called najis, NO! we should not because there are parts of their belief that are common with Islam.

We diagreed with certain belief that they hold.  The anti Tawheed type belief is considered  as defying logic.  It is not from God and only God is Pure (clear, shining, peaceful, ...). That is why Islam is called religion of peace..salam. That part of anti Tawheed is called najis (impure)...chaos, murky, dark. Too many so called Gods at human level.  Muslims also have many impurity at personal level.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) introduced repentance as mean to wipe out impured stain in us.  Syaitan is below impure level.  There are considered clear enemies of human being.  Fighting and killing them are considered virtue.

That is why when Muslim fight, deep in their heart is to kill the syaitan NO the humans.  If that human is totally controlled by syaitans and that syaitans instructed that human to kill us, then in self defence we are allowed to kill that human possesed by syaitans.  Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) tried to the very last dropped of his blood to help his enemies to disengage from syaitans.  He tried. That blood of Hussain (عليه السلام),has weakened Syaitans until today.

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said we should respect others because of same belief or we are all as human.

 

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On 5/21/2020 at 11:56 PM, khamosh21 said:

I would like to get some counter arguments to this idea...

If we look at the number of religions, and then sects, and then sects withing sects, we can conclude that most religious or believing people are wrong about their own beliefs.

And the reason many are wrong about their beliefs is because there is some error in thinking, they are normally unable use correct logic for whatever reason.

Thus we can conclude that most believers have faulty logic on average as almost all religions/sects are wrong or go about contradicting each other...

so the question is, as believers we are all part of this and it implies most of us have faulty logic?

how can we trust ourselves?

This argument undermines itself.  If you can't trust yourself then you can't trust this argument.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, .InshAllah. said:

This argument undermines itself.  If you can't trust yourself then you can't trust this argument.

it would if i stated we can't trust ourselves in ALL aspects of life, i am being specific how we handle religion... not other topics.

nice try though...

Edited by khamosh21
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

it would if i stated we can't trust ourselves in ALL aspects of life, i am being specific how we handle religion... not other topics.

nice try though...

You concluded that 'most believers have faulty logic'.  Logic is used to reason about everything not just religion.  You cant restrict your conclusion to religion only.  That would be completely arbitrary and unjustified.

Edited by .InshAllah.
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On 5/22/2020 at 3:56 AM, khamosh21 said:

I would like to get some counter arguments to this idea...

If we look at the number of religions, and then sects, and then sects withing sects, we can conclude that most religious or believing people are wrong about their own beliefs.

And the reason many are wrong about their beliefs is because there is some error in thinking, they are normally unable use correct logic for whatever reason.

Thus we can conclude that most believers have faulty logic on average as almost all religions/sects are wrong or go about contradicting each other...

so the question is, as believers we are all part of this and it implies most of us have faulty logic?

how can we trust ourselves?

The proof that all other fail to answer our questions is proof of our veracity. 

As regards, your topic. People does not have faulty knowledge, they are obstinate. So you are wrong about declaring everyone faulty.

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