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In the Name of God بسم الله
Nathan

Was Jesus a Liar or a Madman?

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On 6/17/2020 at 4:19 PM, THREE1THREE said:

The questioner is asking what must I do to inherit enteral life. But before that he calls jesus “Good teacher” then jesus says to him “why do you call me good?” Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise not the least. Ready he wanted it all praise to God thus he says “on one is good except God alone” THEN jesus tells him about the commandments. God has always changed laws through laws through prophets, an example is when Moses came abrogated the Noahide laws, does that make Moses God ? No!  Likewise with Jesus, Jesus was simply carrying God’s commandments and purpose. Your claims are just wishful thinking your are taking the the first part of the incident out of context. 

Thanks for the reply.

There are a number of plausible reasons why Jesus answered in the way He did. Mine has the dual advantages of continuing a train of reasoning without breaking the context (yours requires a switch from Torah to praise/divinity), and Matthew's additional explanation. But I don't need to show that my explanation is more likely than yours- just that it is a plausible reading for what went on. I'm not the one claiming deductions about what Jesus was saying.

No it doesn’t because the verses that are used to supposedly support the trinity are deliberately mistranslated to support a doctrine that came in the 4th century.

The doctrine was around long before that. Paul clearly believes Jesus is God in flesh, so does John, but in any case Pliny writes that Christians “sing hymns to Christ as to a god” in AD 112.

The light is jesus himself he represents guidanceand darkness is Satan he represents misguidance. The passage then says darkness has not overcome it. This corresponds with other Mathew and Mark on jesus being tested in the desert by Satan except gospel according to John uses a different wordings to discribe jesus’ infallibility. 

They're talking about two completely different things. John is giving an overview of Jesus' life, and the Temptation in the Desert was an event. Why do you think they are talking about the same thing?

Hence why he said in a parable in Mathew 7:13-14 that the true path is gonna be hard to find and only a minority will find it.

He was talking about being rejected by the majority of first century Judaism there. Certainly not whether it makes any sense to ignore universal expert opinion.

Again wishful thinking, go to the thread “are humans stronger then God” and read my comment on that matter.

Paul was a deceiver. Read the thread “Saul(Paul) refuted” it goes in complete depth. 

Go to the thread “Doctrine of the trinity refuted” it goes in-depth on the trinity.

I would like the time to deal with the questions you raise on those threads, because again quotes have been misunderstood, or proof texted out of the context. However we've still got material on this thread to deal with...

Mathew wanted to Push the idea of dualism/Greek methodology, The Father who dwells in heaven and the Son aswell but then the son comes down to earth but the son is not equal to the Father rather he is a lower god.

It is uncontroversially recognised that Matthew wrote the 'Jewish Gospel', and John wrote the Gospel influenced by Greek thinking. Matthew believed that God is One like everyone else in the Early Church.

 

OK, I did say I would work through the quotes you gave, so I think this one was next:

Ephesians 2:14-15 “14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.” Paul obviously is implying that God’s Law brings hostility when obviously that is not the case otherwise God will be unjust and evil, that is blasphemy. Since Paul believes God’s Law brings hostility he go’s on by saying the law is pretty much abolished through Christ flesh(implying through his crucifixion).

What Paul is saying is that the Torah was a huge dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles, which it certainly was in the first century. That division was creating all sorts of hostility problems in the Early Church (this is recorded throughout Acts/ Paul's epistles). Paul is saying that now Torah has served its purpose and been set aside, it should no longer be a barrier within the Church.

Paul never says Torah is bad, in fact the opposite- it was God's creation and ideal for purpose, but it is now irrelevant, and he wants those continuing to insist on it for Gentile Christians to stop making unnecessary and huge problems.

What is interesting about Paul's writing is that, unlike the side-lining of Torah which was immensely controversial, writing about Jesus as God in human is not at all controversial. He doesn't need to argue the case for it, or get upset about opposition to it, but just says it. Which tells us the Early Church, lead by the disciples who knew Jesus best, simply accepted it as a fact.

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32 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

There are a number of plausible reasons why Jesus answered in the way He did.

They are mere wishful thinking that have no basis even in Mathew jesus tells him their is only One(I.e God) who is good then answers his question and notice in Mark and Mathew the boy addresses him as “teacher” not “Good teacher” the second time the boy knew very well that Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise. 

Ur just disparately at this point trying to take it out context when it’s complete not related to it nor does have it have a basis just mere wishful thinking and interpretation. 

32 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

The doctrine was around long before that. Paul clearly believes Jesus is God in flesh,

Paul was dualist who believed the second god jesus became flesh. 

 

32 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

so does John,

John doesn’t show jesus being God this how In geek it is interpreted 

In the beginning was ho logos, and ho logos was with ho theos and theos was ho logos.

”ho theos” is translated as “the God” referring to the one true God which is in Aramaic “Allaha” and in Arabic “Allah”

the second theos can legitimately be translated as “divine” even non biased trinitarians agree as well but they interpret it as the Word whom they believe is a person to be divine and distinguish the person from Ho theos.

Another translation of it in greek

in the beginning was ho logos and ho logos was with Ton theos and theos was ho logos. 

again “ton theos”(the God) is a reference to the one true God and theos can legitimately be translated as “divine” 

heres another Greek translation 

“in the beginning was ho logos and ho logos was with theov and theos was ho logos”

agaim scholars say “theov” is a reference to the one true God while theos can be legitimately interpreted as “divine”.

as we can see their are clear distinguishment.

if we translated it how the typical trinitarians do it would actually show dualism since the Word was WITH  God  and the Word was God. 

Now I’m the beginning it is clear that the Word is being distinguished from God and the Word is seen as a person who is God this shows dualism explicitly.

32 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

but it is now irrelevant,

It is very relevant read Mathew 5:17 19 and 20, Mathew 6 how to surpass, and Mathew 7 the very end. And Jesus in his final moments with the disciples makes it clear to remain in God to love you should hold on to the Law. John 15:10

32 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Which tells us the Early Church, lead by the disciples who knew Jesus best, simply accepted it as a fact.

Read my refuted against Paul. 

Saul(paul) refuted.

you are deeply mistaken. 

Edited by THREE1THREE

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Jesus was not a liar. But likely the authors of the Bible you have were.

If not apply muslim hadith science criteria to the Bible and show what is authentically attributed to Jesus.

If you think islamic hadith science is inferior. Then please demonstrate how you varify that these are Jesus words.

Also please state where Jesus himself said he was the begotten son of God.

Edited by Warilla

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23 hours ago, Leslie P said:

They're talking about two completely different things. John is giving an overview of Jesus' life, and the Temptation in the Desert was an event. Why do you think they are talking about the same thing?

The aurthor of gospel of “John”  is summarising the incident. 

in reality darkness did take overcome light if you were to interpret it in a different way. 

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On 6/21/2020 at 1:08 PM, THREE1THREE said:

They are mere wishful thinking that have no basis even in Mathew jesus tells him their is only One(I.e God) who is good then answers his question and notice in Mark and Mathew the boy addresses him as “teacher” not “Good teacher” the second time the boy knew very well that Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise. 

Thanks again for your thoughts.

But that also fits with my construction- Jesus has set the man a puzzle and while he's working it out, it makes sense to drop the 'good'. So again, my reading is at least as good as yours.

Also, I don't think this idea of Jesus rejecting praise because of overwhelming humility works.

This is the same Jesus who, also in the next chapter of Mark, enters Jerusalem to the cries of “Hosanna!; “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!; Hosanna in the highest heaven!”.

The same Jesus who is shortly after anointed with the most expensive perfume as an act of worship.

The same Jesus who immediately after declares himself to be soon to be “sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

If He's happy to take those praises, I don't think being called 'good' is going to bother Him at all.

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Paul was dualist who believed the second god jesus became flesh.

Absolutely, definitively not. Paul repeats several times “God is One” and it's the basis for a vast amount of his belief. Paul lived and died the strictest of strict monotheists.

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John doesn’t show jesus being God this how In geek it is interpreted


<snip>
Now I’m the beginning it is clear that the Word is being distinguished from God and the Word is seen as a person who is God this shows dualism explicitly.

If you recall, I've already said I'm not going to push that Ho Theos absolutely must be translated only as 'God', since it involves a mass of technical Greek. My point is that John is rerunning Genesis 1. In Genesis 1, God creates the universe. In John 1 Jesus creates the universe. Therefore John believes Jesus is God.

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It is very relevant read Mathew 5:17 19 and 20, Mathew 6 how to surpass, and Mathew 7 the very end. And Jesus in his final moments with the disciples makes it clear to remain in God to love you should hold on to the Law. John 15:10

(Matthew 5) Jesus came to fulfil the Torah, not to confirm it. The Torah was fulfilled (purpose achieved) by Jesus through His death on the cross and that was validated by His resurrection. Hence it no longer had relevance.

(Matthew 6) What came next was an expectation on Jesus' followers that they would behave in ways that went beyond what Torah taught in certain respects, which Jesus outlines.

(John 15:10) The “commands” of Jesus are not the same as the OT Torah.

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Nope I challenge you to find a church father in 1-2-3 centuries were they believed in the 4th century trinity.

We're pretty much there with Paul's benediction “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14); also “According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood” (1 Peter 1:2) ; amd the sending of the Holy Spirit “Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" (Galatians 4:6). Also “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. Matthew 28:19

Also “For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise Thee, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, through the eternal and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom with Him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now [and ever] and for the ages to come. Amen.” Polycarp

“There is one God.... There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged.” Gregory the Wonder Worker

Clearly the Church in subsequent centuries developed the idea, not always in ways that made things clearer. This is why I tend to avoid them.

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The aurthor of gospel of “John” is summarising the incident. in reality darkness did take overcome light if you were to interpret it in a different way.

John 1 (creation of the universe, the One who created it becoming human) and the temptation in the desert (refusal to turn stones into bread, refusal to throw himself off a height) are completely different. I'm very confused about why you would think they are the same.

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Read my refuted against Paul

It is agreed by historians of all kinds that Paul did work very closely with the disciples of Jesus. The ones who knew Him best.

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5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

my reading is at least as good as yours.

Not even close it has no basis you are taking the passage out of context. 

 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

This is the same Jesus who, also in the next chapter of Mark, enters Jerusalem to the cries of “Hosanna!; “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!; Hosanna in the highest heaven!”.

That was to fulfil a prophecy their is a big difference.

 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Matthew 5) Jesus came to fulfil the Torah, not to confirm it. The Torah was fulfilled (purpose achieved) by Jesus through His death on the cross and that was validated by His resurrection. Hence it no longer had relevance.

 

According to Paul not to jesus. 

Mathew 5:19-20

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

It is agreed by historians of all kinds that Paul did work very closely with the disciples of Jesus. The ones who knew Him best.

 

Read it before taking the words of the biased ones. Stop being stubborn (like the rest on this thread) and read rationally and logically. 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14);

Trinitarians try to use  2 Corinthians 13:14 to try an show that the trinity existed in Paul’s epistle, let’s examine the verse...

“14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing between Jesus Christ and the “love of God” and the Holy Spirit. 

Paul himself believed the holy spirit is a gift from God.

1 Thessalonians 4:8

...the very God who gives you His holy spirit.”

 

The question arises did Paul believe in a trinity or was he a dualist ?  

 1 Corinthians 8:6

“6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”

Paul makes it clear that “the Father” is God, not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. If Paul was a trinitarian he would say, “there is but one God, the Father  the Son The Holy Spirit,...” Paul calls God “the Father” the same way Prophet Ezra, Daniel Jeremiah called God “Allah”.

 

Ephesians 1:3

“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

Romans 15:6

6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus. “Praise to be the God....of our lord Jesus Christ”.

Colossians 1:3

“3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” 

 

Philippians 2:5-7

5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

 

Now in verse 5 Paul is telling the people to have the same mindset as Jesus amongst each other then he continues on in verse by saying 6 “who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” and he go’s in verse 7 by pretty much saying jesus took on a form of a human. 

In verse 6 Paul says “Who being very nature God” over here Paul believes Jesus to be God(i.e divine) but then as we continue on in verse 6 Paul says “did not consider equality with God Almighty something to be used to his own advantage”  Now over here Paul is distinguishing Jesus from God Almighty but he also believes jesus was also a God beside(i.e next to) God but Jesus who is the second God manifested himself in a human form ,as verse 7 shows, so that he is no longer equal to God Almighty rather he is limited. 

Now this is obviously a heresy and dualism since Jesus is a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty, despite jesus manifesting himself in a human form because in nature he is a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty except he is a limited God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty. This is obviously not Monotheism at all and contradicts the Law and the prophets. So if the trinitarians try to use Paul’s epistles to show the trinity then they have to believe there are either two Gods or three Gods since Paul believes Jesus was a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty but he limited himself so he is no longer equal to God by not being like God Almighty.

 

 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

John 1 (creation of the universe, the One who created it becoming human) and the temptation in the desert (refusal to turn stones into bread, refusal to throw himself off a height) are completely different. I'm very confused about why you would think they are the same.

John 1:1-3 is going back to the book of genesis and it’s summarising it. 

John1:4-18

4In it was life(Jesus), and that life(Jesus) was the light(guide) for all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness and the darkness, has not overcome it.

6There was a man sent from Allaha whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to bear witness about the light(Messenger), that all might believe through him. 8He was not the light(Messenger); but came to bear witness about the light(Messenger). 

9The true light(Messenger) that gives light(guidance) to everyone was coming into the world. 10It(the word/God’s decree) was in the world and, though the world was made through it(the word/God’s decree) the world did not recognise it(the word/God’s decree). 11He went to his own people, and his own people did not accept him. 12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to be servants of Allaha 13They are reborn—not because of natural decent nor of the desire or will of mankind, but reborn for Allaha.

14The word became flesh(God’s decree became manifested) and made its dwelling among us. We have seen it’s glory, the glory of the LORD’s one and only Messenger.

John 1:4-5 is summarising the incident of jesus being tested in the dessert. 

“4In it was life(Jesus), and that life(Jesus) was the light(guide) for all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness and the darkness, has not overcome it.”

in verse 5 the light represents jesus and darkness represents Satan. 

Light has always been an expression of guidance,hope  thus its attributed to Jesus since Jesus came to bring guidance by bringing truth and knowledge of salvation. Darkness has always been an expression of misguidance also an scary place, depressing, being astray. Darkness repersents Satan; as we both know Satan seeks to lead people astray and do all sorts of wicked things. 

 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Matthew 28:19

Also “For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise Thee, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, through the eternal and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom with Him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now [and ever] and for the ages to come. Amen.” Polycarp

It has been added by the church fathers 

never do you see in the book of acts the disciples baptising in the name of the Father, The son and the Holy Spirit. Rather they just baptised In the name of Christ. 

Classic church fathers when they quoted that passage jesus says to the disciples to baptise in his name.  I know an article that goes in depth on this passage.

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

God strengthen Elisha with the power and spirit of Elijah. Samething here.

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

According to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

Notice says God the Father....

 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood”

It says “the spirit” not “Holy spirit” he is referring to jesus spirit. What he is pretty much saying is jesus’ spirit had complete control of its own will instead of God having control. 

 

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7 hours ago, Leslie P said:

I've already said I'm not going to push that Ho Theos absolutely must be translated only as 'God',

Because you know you have no chance and ur church distinguishes “Ho theos” (the God) from “thoes” which has many meanings.

some Greek translations say “Ton Theos” (the God) and the second again just says “theos”

another one says “Theov” which is a reference to the one true God and the second again says “theos”.

my interpretation is indeed correct. 

7 hours ago, Leslie P said:

“sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

The right hand of God is an expression meaning the Highest which is called the throne of God which is a title it’s not literally a throne of God. 

When jesus returns he will decend down from the heavens on a cloud. 

The passage says “one like a Son of Man”

it calls jesus a human. 

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On 6/24/2020 at 11:45 PM, THREE1THREE said:

Not even close it has no basis you are taking the passage out of context. 

Thanks again for your thoughts on this.

Remember Jesus asks a question, rather than makes a statement. I don't think your account deals with that.

Here's where I think we are with this passage. There are a number of possible readings for this- a teaser for the man to conclude Jesus is God; asking why Jesus can alter Torah; pointing at God's greatness; other;...and yours. I've given a number of reasons why I don't think yours works, but even at best it's one possibility amongst a number of others.

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That was to fulfil a prophecy their is a big difference.

Yes, but they were using the word Eulogēmenos (blessed) towards Him which is calling Him good, only much stronger. He was invited to object to what people were saying and pointedly refused (Luke 19:38-40)

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According to Paul not to jesus. Mathew 5:19-20

The decision to move on from Torah was taken by the leadership of the Early Church who were Peter, James and John. The ones who knew Jesus best. Matthew 5:19-20 refers to the situation in the Kingdom of Heaven which began after the resurrection and Torah had been fulfilled.

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Trinitarians try to use 2 Corinthians 13:14 to try an show that the trinity existed in Paul’s epistle, let’s examine the verse...<snip>... but he limited himself so he is no longer equal to God by not being like God Almighty.

I've got enough of a backlog of the earlier quotes to deal with, so I'll have to come back to these.

Paul repeats over and over again that God is One. That was true when he was the pharisee Saul and remained true as Paul when he realised that everything he had hoped for as Saul had happened in and through Jesus.

You might want to give some thought to the baptism of Jesus (Matthew 3) to see how Paul can use talk of God as One, and yet write as he does about Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

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Light has always been an expression of guidance,hope thus its attributed to Jesus since Jesus came to bring guidance by bringing truth and knowledge of salvation

Since John is talking about the light that was the Creator of the universe coming to earth as a human, he can't be referring to 'guidance'.

Also the knowledge of salvation that Jesus appears to have brought to mankind was a belief in His divinity. Any other 'light' has long been extinguished.

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It says “the spirit” not “Holy spirit” he is referring to jesus spirit. What he is pretty much saying is jesus’ spirit had complete control of its own will instead of God having control.

When Paul talks about the Spirit in this letter or any other he's talking about the Holy Spirit e.g. 2 chapters later in Gal 5.

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It says “the spirit” not “Holy spirit” he is referring to jesus spirit. What he is pretty much saying is jesus’ spirit had complete control of its own will instead of God having control.

This can't be correct because later in 1 Peter 1:11 he talks about the OT prophets being inspired by the Spirit of Jesus. Notice how casually he uses the Name of Jesus as God. The Early Church had long decided that Jesus was God.

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Because you know you have no chance and ur church distinguishes “Ho theos” (the God) from “thoes” which has many meanings..<snip>...my interpretation is indeed correct.

I would invite any reader who wants to know what delights they might be missing, or are wondering at my refusal to go there, to use the power of Google.

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The passage says “one like a Son of Man”. it calls jesus a human.

Yes, Jesus was a human. He was also God.

So, continuing through the series of quotes you gave on p3. The idea behind the four Galatians quotes has been discussed above- Jesus said there would be a time when Torah would be “fulfilled”, and then things change radically.

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Did the disciples teach what Paul teached after Jesus’ went up to the heavens???

Yes. The disciples worked very closely with Paul, and the decision to move on from it was made after rigorous debate at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15).

Had they disagreed with Paul's views, in particular with what he was writing about Jesus as God, they would have had no choice other than to throw him out immediately.

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I would like to kindly request all participants to keep the dialogue polite and respectful. When giving examples or using metaphors, one doesn't need to use offensive or inflammatory ones to get their point across. When addressing a certain point, please do so without making personal remarks or judgements about the person you are quoting. 

We will edit the statements which were considered inappropriate and watch the topic carefully to ensure that the dialogue remains civil. 

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15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Here's where I think we are with this passage. There are a number of possible readings for this

No their is absolutely no “Numbers of reading” you are at the moment being stubborn after the context has been explained clearly, you are not the only one who is trying to runaway from this.

Monotheist: 

“Mark 10:17-18

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

Jesus questions a questioner for calling him “good teacher” the reason being is because he didn’t want any sort of praise not even a small one, jesus was simply being humble and says to the questioner, “no one is good except God alone” jesus wanted all praise to God.  This incident clearly shows Jesus is not God. Yet you guys deny it arrogantly”

Reply 

Trinitarian:

“You talk about Jesus asking the rich man, "why do you call me good?"  Why do you just assume out of context that he's not testing this man.  Jesus by no means is saying he's not good.  In fact, the opposite would be that he's bad.  He's not bad but very good.  In the end of the passage he tells the rich man to sell everything (which was not one of the 10 commandments) and to follow him.  Jesus knew his heart like only God does and does not say, "and follow your heavenly Father," but specifically says to follow him.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“‘Why do you just assume out of context that he's not testing this man.’

How much of joke can ur assumptions be.

Mark 10:17-18

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

Jesus questions the questioner for calling him “Good teacher” then says to the questioner “No one is good except God alone” THEN jesus answers his Question.”

 

Quick footnote: no where do we see is testing rather Jesus questions the questioners minor praise by calling him “Good” jesus didn’t want any sort of praise not even the least rather he wanted all praise to God hence why he said “no one is good except God alone” then after that Jesus and his question ,which was what must he do to inherit eternal life, and says “19You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’” 20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Jesus loved him when the boy said he has kept these this shows that Jesus did encourage to keep the commandments and also preached to keep as we can see in many occasions. Jesus having the knowledge of the Unseen does not show in any way, shape or from that Jesus is God, Prophet Jesus is no different to other prophets who had the knowledge of the unseen when they prophecies about future events or what will happen to a particular person. Jesus was asking the boy to follow him physically, again this in no way, shape or form does it show jesus is God; jesus told the boy to sell everything he had and then to come follow him. Even when jesus tells the people to follow him that in no way shows he is God, jesus is carrying out God’s purpose and commands and he has the knowledge to the door of salvation so when jesus tells other people to follow him he is telling them to follow his teaching which God is preaching through him just like the previous prophets and to take him as a role model just like the previous prophets. And it is God who gives jesus followers as we have shown before. And also notice the boy didn’t call jesus “Good teacher” the second time rather he only called him “teacher” the boy recognised that Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise at all period.

 

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Yes, but they were using the word Eulogēmenos (blessed) towards Him which is calling Him good, only much stronger. He was invited to object to what people were saying and pointedly refused (Luke 19:38-40)

Prophecies are decreed by God. Think logically.... I shouldn’t even explain that to you.

 

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Jesus said there would be a time when Torah would be “fulfilled”, and then things change radically.

He doesn’t say any of that rather before he was handed over to the Romans his last moments with his disciples jesus says to his disciples to hold on to the Law like he does John 15:10

Mathew 5:17, 519-20

mathew 7:24-27

mathew 15:

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Yes, Jesus was a human. He was also God.

 

You can’t be limited and Unlimited at exact same time it’s irrational, use ur head on that one I’m not gonna explain myself. I can quote verses and etc but for once why don’t you he productive and think rationality and logically.

 

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

This can't be correct because later in 1 Peter 1:11 he talks about the OT prophets being inspired by the Spirit of Jesus. Notice how casually he uses the Name of Jesus as God. The Early Church had long decided that Jesus was God.

You are deliberately mistranslating at this point.

1. It’s not peters epistle rather it belongs to a follower of Paul who attributed it to Peter.

2. For arguments sakes even if the prophets were being inspired by “the spirit of Jesus” that doesn’t  shown any divinity what so ever. 

1petar 1:3 “3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”

praise to be to the God....of our lord Jesus christ.

The Pauline author didn’t believe jesus was God almighty at all. Rather he believed jesus had a God.

1Peter 1:21

“21Through him(Jesus) you believe in God, who raised him(Jesus) from the dead....”

We can clearly see jesus is being distinguished from God almighty. 

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

This can't be correct because later in 1 Peter 1:11 he talks about the OT prophets being inspired by the Spirit of Jesus. Notice how casually he uses the Name of Jesus as God. The Early Church had long decided that Jesus was God.

every Greek text even scholars agree that Ho theos is distinguished from theos.

at this point you are denying it out of arrogance. 

A simple google research will show what I’m saying is correct. 

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Yes

Wrong.

Read James 2:8-11, 2:15 and above. Paul taught on the contrary. Read my refute on Paul.

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16 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Since John is talking about the light that was the Creator of the universe coming to earth as a human, he can't be referring to 'guidance'.

Also the knowledge of salvation that Jesus appears to have brought to mankind was a belief in His divinity. Any other 'light' has long been extinguished.

No basis. I’ve already explained it. But you arrogantly deny.  

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16 hours ago, Leslie P said:

You might want to give some thought to the baptism of Jesus

Mathew 3:16

“...he saw the Spirit of God”

 

the spirit of God came in Jesus. 

And God created a sound wave and conveyed His message.

Paul believes The Father was God Almighty alone while Jesus was subordinate to the Father.

you as alway give baseless interpretations which have absolutely ZERO relation to the context. 

Stop running away & accept the crystal clear. You are holding on to nothing but mere wishful thinking and fantasies. 

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On 6/29/2020 at 8:42 AM, THREE1THREE said:

No their is absolutely no “Numbers of reading” 

Thanks for the thoughts again.

The points I'm making are: there are a number of possible explanations for why Jesus said what He did. For example, asking the man to focus on where the Torah came from unlocks ways of thinking about Jesus. Remember that the question the man asked was a very, very common one in First Century Israel- when the Kingdom of God came, who was 'in' and who was 'out'. Josephus looks at this in his writings. That's the (well-known) question Jesus is answering.

My explanation means that Jesus' answer refers to the question, rather than going off in a very different direction before coming back as your reconstruction requires.

Jesus questions a questioner for calling him “good teacher” the reason being is because he didn’t want any sort of praise not even a small one,

Jesus was happy to accept praise in other contexts. Jesus praise-filled entry into Jerusalem was prophesied, but He still accepted the praise, aimed at Him. He said of Himself "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” He's just not going to get upset about being called good.

The Pauline author didn’t believe jesus was God almighty at all.

If he's a Pauline author, he believed Jesus was God. Paul was very clear on that point.

1petar 1:3 “3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”

God the Father with Jesus as God the Son. By this stage of history, 'Son (of God)' as a phrase within the Church meant the unique and divine Son, having moved on massively from the OT meaning.

1Peter 1:21 “21Through him(Jesus) you believe in God, who raised him(Jesus) from the dead....”

God the Father raised God the Son.

Mathew 3:16 “...he saw the Spirit of God” the spirit of God came in Jesus. And God created a sound wave and conveyed His message.

You can’t be limited and Unlimited at exact same time it’s irrational,

You have the Spirit of God descending onto the Son of God, while God the Father tells the crowd what is going on.

Read James 2:8-11, 2:15 and above.

 

So going back to your posts on p3, we've got as far as James 2 which is also quoted in these posts.

We know that dropping Torah obedience was extremely controversial. Paul's letters, and Acts, outline the problems, but also the reasons why it happened.

Torah was this system of rules designed to define what is right/wrong, defining the boundary between those inside the Kingdom of God (the Jews) and those outside (the Gentiles).

On keeping Torah- as Jesus said, it remained in place 'until everything is fulfilled' i.e. the crucifixion/resurrection thing. After that, it is no longer needed.

Acts 15 goes into detail about how the disciples implemented this, detailing the arguments and conclusion. Remember the decision to end mandatory following of Torah was made by Jesus' disciples, the ones who knew Him best.

 

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On 5/19/2020 at 7:57 AM, Nathan said:

Greetings! I would like to open up this topic to discuss the person of Jesus. In the Bible, Jesus clearly says that He is the Son of God. C.S. Lewis is one of my favorite authors and this quote from him is very thought provoking. Here it is: “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” I would love to hear your thoughts and also your perspectives on Jesus according to the Qu'ran. Thank you!

Or maybe he was misquoted?

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12 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Jesus praise-filled entry into Jerusalem was prophesied, but He still accepted the praise, aimed at Him.

Again didn’t i make myself crystal clear they God created prophecies to be fulfilled. 

Prophecies happens so they can identify the true messiah obviously if they didn’t happen jesus would be a false messiah. 

15 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

The points I'm making are: there are a number of possible explanations for why Jesus said what He did

Absolutely zero. You are running away from the context and making up random explanations that have absolutely ZERO relation the incident and context. Check out “Trinitarian fantasies” thread.

 

18 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

God the Father raised God the Son.

Two Gods..... you are distinguishing them.

 

19 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

God the Father with Jesus as God the Son. By this stage of history, 'Son (of God)' as a phrase within the Church meant the unique and divine Son, having moved on massively from the OT meaning.

No again that’s just mere fantasies all the early churches believed Jesus was the son of God when Paul came into play thats it before it they were Unitarian. This claim your making is just mere wishful thinking. 

again that’s dualism you’re distinguishing God the Father from God the son.

31 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

You have the Spirit of God descending onto the Son of God, while God the Father tells the crowd what is going on.

You are distinguishing Jesus from God and you believe the the spirit of God ,which is God’s power to strengthen, strengthened Jesus. 

No sign of the trinity at all.

34 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

So going back to your posts on p3, we've got as far as James 2 which is also quoted in these posts.

We know that dropping Torah obedience was extremely controversial. Paul's letters, and Acts, outline the problems, but also the reasons why it happened.

Torah was this system of rules designed to define what is right/wrong, defining the boundary between those inside the Kingdom of God (the Jews) and those outside (the Gentiles).

On keeping Torah- as Jesus said, it remained in place 'until everything is fulfilled' i.e. the crucifixion/resurrection thing. After that, it is no longer needed.

Acts 15 goes into detail about how the disciples implemented this, detailing the arguments and conclusion. Remember the decision to end mandatory following of Torah was made by Jesus' disciples, the ones who knew Him best.

Just read the thread “Saul(Paul) refuted” it covers all of this.

 

35 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

he's a Pauline author, he believed Jesus was God. Paul was very clear on that point.

Paul believed Jesus was subordinate to the Father. 

 1 Corinthians 8:6

“6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”

 

Paul makes it clear that “the Father” is God, not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. If Paul was a trinitarian he would say, “there is but one God, the Father  the Son The Holy Spirit,...” Paul calls God “the Father” the same way Prophet Ezra, Daniel Jeremiah called God “Allah”.

 

Ephesians 1:3

“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

“Praise be to the God....of our lord Jesus Christ” 

Romans 15:6

6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus.

 

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On 7/2/2020 at 7:40 PM, THREE1THREE said:

...

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Let's start with the next issue from p3: Mathew 7:24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.” In First Century Israel this would have been clearly seen as a reference to the Temple.

The old Temple was on its way out, and would be destroyed. Jesus is bringing in God's Kingdom, and what Jesus is doing here is inviting His listeners to build the New Temple by following Him.

Again didn’t i make myself crystal clear they God created prophecies to be fulfilled.

Absolutely, Jesus had to fulfil the prophecy. But if He is prepared as the Messiah to accept complete adulation during the entry into Jerusalem, he would surely be prepared as the Messiah to accept a casual kind word in other contexts?

Then there's all the other examples “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No-one comes to the Father except through me”. Hardly the talk of someone worried about being called good.

Absolutely zero. You are running away from the context and making up random explanations that have absolutely ZERO relation the incident and context.

I've explained that the problem with your reconstruction is that it requires a sudden change of policy (as above) and a change of subject, before changing back. I'm not clear what the problem is with my reconstruction. Could you unpack the issue a bit?

No again that’s just mere fantasies all the early churches believed Jesus was the son of God when Paul came into play thats it before it they were Unitarian

Where is your evidence for this? Given that what Paul is writing is obviously uncontroversial (in contrast to making Torah optional) it seems certain that people understood that Jesus was God long before Paul wrote.

Ephesians 1:3 “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”“Praise be to the God....of our lord Jesus Christ”; Romans 15:6 “so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”


We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus.

It's the Father-Son thing again. Paul is worshipping the Father who showed Himself in Jesus. As Jesus put it: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. “

No sign of the trinity at all.

(Baptism of Jesus Matthew 3)

Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one place. An excellent way to visualise how the Trinity works.

1 Corinthians 8:6 Paul makes it clear that “the Father” is God, not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. If Paul was a trinitarian he would say, “there is but one God, the Father  the Son The Holy Spirit,...”

Let's read the whole passage, because this is terribly important:

We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

So Paul is saying

-There is only One God. Very, very clearly he says it.

-He attacks polytheism because there is only One God.

-He then quotes the Shema, the holiest prayer in Judaism “Hear, O Israel: the LORD is our God, the LORD is One.”

-But he has modified the Shema to include Jesus in with the second part, naming Him as the Kyrios (who is God) in the second part. There can be no doubt that Paul includes Jesus in with the One God.

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1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

In First Century Israel this would have been clearly seen as a reference to the Temple.

The old Temple was on its way out, and would be destroyed. Jesus is bringing in God's Kingdom, and what Jesus is doing here is inviting His listeners to build the New Temple by following Him.

Jesus is saying a parable to the people to understand what are the consequences of neglecting his teachings and what are the consequences of the one who practices what jesus taught. In short the who put into practice jesus teaching will pass in the day of Judgement and the one who didn’t will fall since he followed no law of righteousness and submission to God.

 

1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

Absolutely, Jesus had to fulfil the prophecy. But if He is prepared as the Messiah to accept complete adulation during the entry into Jerusalem, he would surely be prepared as the Messiah to accept a casual kind word in other contexts?

Then there's all the other examples “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No-one comes to the Father except through me”. Hardly the talk of someone worried about being called good.

As John 1 says the law of God came through Moses and grace and truth came through jesus. 

The OT is partially corrupted even early Christian traditions which date to the mid first century some say early 2nd century which is a copy of a ealier version in the very early first century, show the disciples believed the OT contained some corrupted parts and belived prophets of God are infallible and they had a criterion to distinguish truth from falsehood contained within OT. Jesus had to make clear what sect he belonged and etc since jesus was in his final moments with his disciples in this context. Go read “Saul(Paul) refuted” thread it answers this in-depth or see “Trinitarians fantasies” thread. 

1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one place. An excellent way to visualise how the Trinity works.

Picture this in your head. Jesus ,a man, came to John got baptised then a voice was heard (which is God creating sound waves) then the God strengthens jesus with the holy spirit which came in a form of a dove supposedly. three of this things are DISTINCT from each other... their not one, so it’s either you believe God is made up of three parts or the three make a group called “God”.

 

1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

Let's read the whole passage, because this is terribly important:

 

1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

So Paul is saying

-There is only One God. Very, very clearly he says it.

-He attacks polytheism because there is only One God.

-He then quotes the Shema, the holiest prayer in Judaism “Hear, O Israel: the LORD is our God, the LORD is One.”

-But he has modified the Shema to include Jesus in with the second part, naming Him as the Kyrios (who is God) in the second part. There can be no doubt that Paul includes Jesus in with the One God.

 

1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

He calls God “the Father” and he is distinguishing Him from Jesus. It’s crystal clear. 

Romans 15:6 “6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

”..you may glorify the God...of our Lord Jesus Christ” 

paul believes Jesus has a God and that God is jesus’ father.  Samething is shown in Ephesians 1:3 and Colossians 1:3. 

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On 7/5/2020 at 6:16 PM, THREE1THREE said:

...

Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am impressed by your level of knowledge of the Bible!

So first of all, back to the p3 material. It was certainly true that Saul persecuted the Early Church. It seems very clear that he had some sort of experience which turned him around 180 degrees (not a dream, but an absolutely compelling vision).

You say he attempted to change the beliefs of the Early Church. Why? Saul was a fanatical Pharisee. Why would he want to make the Jewish-Christian sect both highly successful and even more deviant from Judaism? He suffered horrendously for doing what he did (2 Corinthians 11).

It makes no sense. What evidence do you have that he was trying to destroy the message of Jesus as Paul? And don't forget that the disciples- the ones who knew Jesus' message best- were supporting him all the way.

Jesus is saying a parable...submission to God.

In first century Israel, someone talking in a religious context about a house on a rock would have been referring to the Jerusalem Temple. His audience would have been very aware of the reference. It's hard to overstress the impact of the Temple on first century Judaism.

I mean I don't disagree with what you said, but it goes much further in that Jesus is announcing the imminent Kingdom of God. Jesus is saying that the New Temple will be built around Him.

The OT is partially corrupted even early Christian traditions which date to the mid first century some say early 2nd century which is a copy of a ealier version in the very early first century, show the disciples believed the OT contained some corrupted parts and belived prophets of God are infallible and they had a criterion to distinguish truth from falsehood contained within OT.

Could you provide references for this, because I'm not clear what you're referring to here?

Jesus had to make clear what sect he belonged and etc

Again, I'm a bit unclear. Which sect would that be?

He calls God “the Father” and he is distinguishing Him from Jesus.

Who is God the Son, distinct from God the Father.

Romans 15:6 “6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”... paul believes Jesus has a God and that God is jesus’ father. Samething is shown in Ephesians 1:3 and Colossians 1:3

And yet Paul writes (Phil 2:10) that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth“ clearly referencing Isaiah 45: “for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone are deliverance and strength.’” Clearly Paul thinks Jesus is God.

I think you're getting a bit confused about how Paul uses the phrase “God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” to refer to the role of Jesus. The meaning is 'God, who is the the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ'.

It's the same God..Lord...structure as the 1 Corinthians 8 passage- “there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him”. Notice how Jesus has taken on the role of Kyrios- Lord, who in the original Shema is definitively God.

So to stress the point, Paul has taken the ultimate prayer of monotheism, the One God prayer, and inserted Jesus into it in such a way that makes it clear that Jesus is God.

 


 

 

 

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