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In the Name of God بسم الله
Nathan

Was Jesus a Liar or a Madman?

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On 6/17/2020 at 4:19 PM, THREE1THREE said:

The questioner is asking what must I do to inherit enteral life. But before that he calls jesus “Good teacher” then jesus says to him “why do you call me good?” Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise not the least. Ready he wanted it all praise to God thus he says “on one is good except God alone” THEN jesus tells him about the commandments. God has always changed laws through laws through prophets, an example is when Moses came abrogated the Noahide laws, does that make Moses God ? No!  Likewise with Jesus, Jesus was simply carrying God’s commandments and purpose. Your claims are just wishful thinking your are taking the the first part of the incident out of context. 

Thanks for the reply.

There are a number of plausible reasons why Jesus answered in the way He did. Mine has the dual advantages of continuing a train of reasoning without breaking the context (yours requires a switch from Torah to praise/divinity), and Matthew's additional explanation. But I don't need to show that my explanation is more likely than yours- just that it is a plausible reading for what went on. I'm not the one claiming deductions about what Jesus was saying.

No it doesn’t because the verses that are used to supposedly support the trinity are deliberately mistranslated to support a doctrine that came in the 4th century.

The doctrine was around long before that. Paul clearly believes Jesus is God in flesh, so does John, but in any case Pliny writes that Christians “sing hymns to Christ as to a god” in AD 112.

The light is jesus himself he represents guidanceand darkness is Satan he represents misguidance. The passage then says darkness has not overcome it. This corresponds with other Mathew and Mark on jesus being tested in the desert by Satan except gospel according to John uses a different wordings to discribe jesus’ infallibility. 

They're talking about two completely different things. John is giving an overview of Jesus' life, and the Temptation in the Desert was an event. Why do you think they are talking about the same thing?

Hence why he said in a parable in Mathew 7:13-14 that the true path is gonna be hard to find and only a minority will find it.

He was talking about being rejected by the majority of first century Judaism there. Certainly not whether it makes any sense to ignore universal expert opinion.

Again wishful thinking, go to the thread “are humans stronger then God” and read my comment on that matter.

Paul was a deceiver. Read the thread “Saul(Paul) refuted” it goes in complete depth. 

Go to the thread “Doctrine of the trinity refuted” it goes in-depth on the trinity.

I would like the time to deal with the questions you raise on those threads, because again quotes have been misunderstood, or proof texted out of the context. However we've still got material on this thread to deal with...

Mathew wanted to Push the idea of dualism/Greek methodology, The Father who dwells in heaven and the Son aswell but then the son comes down to earth but the son is not equal to the Father rather he is a lower god.

It is uncontroversially recognised that Matthew wrote the 'Jewish Gospel', and John wrote the Gospel influenced by Greek thinking. Matthew believed that God is One like everyone else in the Early Church.

 

OK, I did say I would work through the quotes you gave, so I think this one was next:

Ephesians 2:14-15 “14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.” Paul obviously is implying that God’s Law brings hostility when obviously that is not the case otherwise God will be unjust and evil, that is blasphemy. Since Paul believes God’s Law brings hostility he go’s on by saying the law is pretty much abolished through Christ flesh(implying through his crucifixion).

What Paul is saying is that the Torah was a huge dividing wall between Jews and Gentiles, which it certainly was in the first century. That division was creating all sorts of hostility problems in the Early Church (this is recorded throughout Acts/ Paul's epistles). Paul is saying that now Torah has served its purpose and been set aside, it should no longer be a barrier within the Church.

Paul never says Torah is bad, in fact the opposite- it was God's creation and ideal for purpose, but it is now irrelevant, and he wants those continuing to insist on it for Gentile Christians to stop making unnecessary and huge problems.

What is interesting about Paul's writing is that, unlike the side-lining of Torah which was immensely controversial, writing about Jesus as God in human is not at all controversial. He doesn't need to argue the case for it, or get upset about opposition to it, but just says it. Which tells us the Early Church, lead by the disciples who knew Jesus best, simply accepted it as a fact.

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32 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

There are a number of plausible reasons why Jesus answered in the way He did.

They are mere wishful thinking that have no basis even in Mathew jesus tells him their is only One(I.e God) who is good then answers his question and notice in Mark and Mathew the boy addresses him as “teacher” not “Good teacher” the second time the boy knew very well that Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise. 

Ur just disparately at this point trying to take it out context when it’s complete not related to it nor does have it have a basis just mere wishful thinking and interpretation. 

32 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

The doctrine was around long before that. Paul clearly believes Jesus is God in flesh,

Paul was dualist who believed the second god jesus became flesh. 

 

32 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

so does John,

John doesn’t show jesus being God this how In geek it is interpreted 

In the beginning was ho logos, and ho logos was with ho theos and theos was ho logos.

”ho theos” is translated as “the God” referring to the one true God which is in Aramaic “Allaha” and in Arabic “Allah”

the second theos can legitimately be translated as “divine” even non biased trinitarians agree as well but they interpret it as the Word whom they believe is a person to be divine and distinguish the person from Ho theos.

Another translation of it in greek

in the beginning was ho logos and ho logos was with Ton theos and theos was ho logos. 

again “ton theos”(the God) is a reference to the one true God and theos can legitimately be translated as “divine” 

heres another Greek translation 

“in the beginning was ho logos and ho logos was with theov and theos was ho logos”

agaim scholars say “theov” is a reference to the one true God while theos can be legitimately interpreted as “divine”.

as we can see their are clear distinguishment.

if we translated it how the typical trinitarians do it would actually show dualism since the Word was WITH  God  and the Word was God. 

Now I’m the beginning it is clear that the Word is being distinguished from God and the Word is seen as a person who is God this shows dualism explicitly.

32 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

but it is now irrelevant,

It is very relevant read Mathew 5:17 19 and 20, Mathew 6 how to surpass, and Mathew 7 the very end. And Jesus in his final moments with the disciples makes it clear to remain in God to love you should hold on to the Law. John 15:10

32 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Which tells us the Early Church, lead by the disciples who knew Jesus best, simply accepted it as a fact.

Read my refuted against Paul. 

Saul(paul) refuted.

you are deeply mistaken. 

Edited by THREE1THREE

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Jesus was not a liar. But likely the authors of the Bible you have were.

If not apply muslim hadith science criteria to the Bible and show what is authentically attributed to Jesus.

If you think islamic hadith science is inferior. Then please demonstrate how you varify that these are Jesus words.

Also please state where Jesus himself said he was the begotten son of God.

Edited by Warilla

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23 hours ago, Leslie P said:

They're talking about two completely different things. John is giving an overview of Jesus' life, and the Temptation in the Desert was an event. Why do you think they are talking about the same thing?

The aurthor of gospel of “John”  is summarising the incident. 

in reality darkness did take overcome light if you were to interpret it in a different way. 

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On 6/21/2020 at 1:08 PM, THREE1THREE said:

They are mere wishful thinking that have no basis even in Mathew jesus tells him their is only One(I.e God) who is good then answers his question and notice in Mark and Mathew the boy addresses him as “teacher” not “Good teacher” the second time the boy knew very well that Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise. 

Thanks again for your thoughts.

But that also fits with my construction- Jesus has set the man a puzzle and while he's working it out, it makes sense to drop the 'good'. So again, my reading is at least as good as yours.

Also, I don't think this idea of Jesus rejecting praise because of overwhelming humility works.

This is the same Jesus who, also in the next chapter of Mark, enters Jerusalem to the cries of “Hosanna!; “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!; Hosanna in the highest heaven!”.

The same Jesus who is shortly after anointed with the most expensive perfume as an act of worship.

The same Jesus who immediately after declares himself to be soon to be “sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

If He's happy to take those praises, I don't think being called 'good' is going to bother Him at all.

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Paul was dualist who believed the second god jesus became flesh.

Absolutely, definitively not. Paul repeats several times “God is One” and it's the basis for a vast amount of his belief. Paul lived and died the strictest of strict monotheists.

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John doesn’t show jesus being God this how In geek it is interpreted


<snip>
Now I’m the beginning it is clear that the Word is being distinguished from God and the Word is seen as a person who is God this shows dualism explicitly.

If you recall, I've already said I'm not going to push that Ho Theos absolutely must be translated only as 'God', since it involves a mass of technical Greek. My point is that John is rerunning Genesis 1. In Genesis 1, God creates the universe. In John 1 Jesus creates the universe. Therefore John believes Jesus is God.

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It is very relevant read Mathew 5:17 19 and 20, Mathew 6 how to surpass, and Mathew 7 the very end. And Jesus in his final moments with the disciples makes it clear to remain in God to love you should hold on to the Law. John 15:10

(Matthew 5) Jesus came to fulfil the Torah, not to confirm it. The Torah was fulfilled (purpose achieved) by Jesus through His death on the cross and that was validated by His resurrection. Hence it no longer had relevance.

(Matthew 6) What came next was an expectation on Jesus' followers that they would behave in ways that went beyond what Torah taught in certain respects, which Jesus outlines.

(John 15:10) The “commands” of Jesus are not the same as the OT Torah.

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Nope I challenge you to find a church father in 1-2-3 centuries were they believed in the 4th century trinity.

We're pretty much there with Paul's benediction “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14); also “According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood” (1 Peter 1:2) ; amd the sending of the Holy Spirit “Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!" (Galatians 4:6). Also “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”. Matthew 28:19

Also “For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise Thee, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, through the eternal and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom with Him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now [and ever] and for the ages to come. Amen.” Polycarp

“There is one God.... There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged.” Gregory the Wonder Worker

Clearly the Church in subsequent centuries developed the idea, not always in ways that made things clearer. This is why I tend to avoid them.

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The aurthor of gospel of “John” is summarising the incident. in reality darkness did take overcome light if you were to interpret it in a different way.

John 1 (creation of the universe, the One who created it becoming human) and the temptation in the desert (refusal to turn stones into bread, refusal to throw himself off a height) are completely different. I'm very confused about why you would think they are the same.

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Read my refuted against Paul

It is agreed by historians of all kinds that Paul did work very closely with the disciples of Jesus. The ones who knew Him best.

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5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

my reading is at least as good as yours.

Not even close it has no basis you are taking the passage out of context. 

 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

This is the same Jesus who, also in the next chapter of Mark, enters Jerusalem to the cries of “Hosanna!; “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!; Hosanna in the highest heaven!”.

That was to fulfil a prophecy their is a big difference.

 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Matthew 5) Jesus came to fulfil the Torah, not to confirm it. The Torah was fulfilled (purpose achieved) by Jesus through His death on the cross and that was validated by His resurrection. Hence it no longer had relevance.

 

According to Paul not to jesus. 

Mathew 5:19-20

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

It is agreed by historians of all kinds that Paul did work very closely with the disciples of Jesus. The ones who knew Him best.

 

Read it before taking the words of the biased ones. Stop being stubborn (like the rest on this thread) and read rationally and logically. 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14);

Trinitarians try to use  2 Corinthians 13:14 to try an show that the trinity existed in Paul’s epistle, let’s examine the verse...

“14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.”

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing between Jesus Christ and the “love of God” and the Holy Spirit. 

Paul himself believed the holy spirit is a gift from God.

1 Thessalonians 4:8

...the very God who gives you His holy spirit.”

 

The question arises did Paul believe in a trinity or was he a dualist ?  

 1 Corinthians 8:6

“6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”

Paul makes it clear that “the Father” is God, not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. If Paul was a trinitarian he would say, “there is but one God, the Father  the Son The Holy Spirit,...” Paul calls God “the Father” the same way Prophet Ezra, Daniel Jeremiah called God “Allah”.

 

Ephesians 1:3

“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

Romans 15:6

6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus. “Praise to be the God....of our lord Jesus Christ”.

Colossians 1:3

“3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” 

 

Philippians 2:5-7

5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

 

Now in verse 5 Paul is telling the people to have the same mindset as Jesus amongst each other then he continues on in verse by saying 6 “who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” and he go’s in verse 7 by pretty much saying jesus took on a form of a human. 

In verse 6 Paul says “Who being very nature God” over here Paul believes Jesus to be God(i.e divine) but then as we continue on in verse 6 Paul says “did not consider equality with God Almighty something to be used to his own advantage”  Now over here Paul is distinguishing Jesus from God Almighty but he also believes jesus was also a God beside(i.e next to) God but Jesus who is the second God manifested himself in a human form ,as verse 7 shows, so that he is no longer equal to God Almighty rather he is limited. 

Now this is obviously a heresy and dualism since Jesus is a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty, despite jesus manifesting himself in a human form because in nature he is a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty except he is a limited God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty. This is obviously not Monotheism at all and contradicts the Law and the prophets. So if the trinitarians try to use Paul’s epistles to show the trinity then they have to believe there are either two Gods or three Gods since Paul believes Jesus was a God beside(i.e next to) God Almighty but he limited himself so he is no longer equal to God by not being like God Almighty.

 

 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

John 1 (creation of the universe, the One who created it becoming human) and the temptation in the desert (refusal to turn stones into bread, refusal to throw himself off a height) are completely different. I'm very confused about why you would think they are the same.

John 1:1-3 is going back to the book of genesis and it’s summarising it. 

John1:4-18

4In it was life(Jesus), and that life(Jesus) was the light(guide) for all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness and the darkness, has not overcome it.

6There was a man sent from Allaha whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to bear witness about the light(Messenger), that all might believe through him. 8He was not the light(Messenger); but came to bear witness about the light(Messenger). 

9The true light(Messenger) that gives light(guidance) to everyone was coming into the world. 10It(the word/God’s decree) was in the world and, though the world was made through it(the word/God’s decree) the world did not recognise it(the word/God’s decree). 11He went to his own people, and his own people did not accept him. 12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to be servants of Allaha 13They are reborn—not because of natural decent nor of the desire or will of mankind, but reborn for Allaha.

14The word became flesh(God’s decree became manifested) and made its dwelling among us. We have seen it’s glory, the glory of the LORD’s one and only Messenger.

John 1:4-5 is summarising the incident of jesus being tested in the dessert. 

“4In it was life(Jesus), and that life(Jesus) was the light(guide) for all mankind. 5The light shines in the darkness and the darkness, has not overcome it.”

in verse 5 the light represents jesus and darkness represents Satan. 

Light has always been an expression of guidance,hope  thus its attributed to Jesus since Jesus came to bring guidance by bringing truth and knowledge of salvation. Darkness has always been an expression of misguidance also an scary place, depressing, being astray. Darkness repersents Satan; as we both know Satan seeks to lead people astray and do all sorts of wicked things. 

 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Matthew 28:19

Also “For this cause, yea and for all things, I praise Thee, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, through the eternal and heavenly High-priest, Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, through whom with Him and the Holy Spirit be glory both now [and ever] and for the ages to come. Amen.” Polycarp

It has been added by the church fathers 

never do you see in the book of acts the disciples baptising in the name of the Father, The son and the Holy Spirit. Rather they just baptised In the name of Christ. 

Classic church fathers when they quoted that passage jesus says to the disciples to baptise in his name.  I know an article that goes in depth on this passage.

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

God strengthen Elisha with the power and spirit of Elijah. Samething here.

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

According to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

Notice says God the Father....

 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with his blood”

It says “the spirit” not “Holy spirit” he is referring to jesus spirit. What he is pretty much saying is jesus’ spirit had complete control of its own will instead of God having control. 

 

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7 hours ago, Leslie P said:

I've already said I'm not going to push that Ho Theos absolutely must be translated only as 'God',

Because you know you have no chance and ur church distinguishes “Ho theos” (the God) from “thoes” which has many meanings.

some Greek translations say “Ton Theos” (the God) and the second again just says “theos”

another one says “Theov” which is a reference to the one true God and the second again says “theos”.

my interpretation is indeed correct. 

7 hours ago, Leslie P said:

“sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

The right hand of God is an expression meaning the Highest which is called the throne of God which is a title it’s not literally a throne of God. 

When jesus returns he will decend down from the heavens on a cloud. 

The passage says “one like a Son of Man”

it calls jesus a human. 

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On 6/24/2020 at 11:45 PM, THREE1THREE said:

Not even close it has no basis you are taking the passage out of context. 

Thanks again for your thoughts on this.

Remember Jesus asks a question, rather than makes a statement. I don't think your account deals with that.

Here's where I think we are with this passage. There are a number of possible readings for this- a teaser for the man to conclude Jesus is God; asking why Jesus can alter Torah; pointing at God's greatness; other;...and yours. I've given a number of reasons why I don't think yours works, but even at best it's one possibility amongst a number of others.

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That was to fulfil a prophecy their is a big difference.

Yes, but they were using the word Eulogēmenos (blessed) towards Him which is calling Him good, only much stronger. He was invited to object to what people were saying and pointedly refused (Luke 19:38-40)

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According to Paul not to jesus. Mathew 5:19-20

The decision to move on from Torah was taken by the leadership of the Early Church who were Peter, James and John. The ones who knew Jesus best. Matthew 5:19-20 refers to the situation in the Kingdom of Heaven which began after the resurrection and Torah had been fulfilled.

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Trinitarians try to use 2 Corinthians 13:14 to try an show that the trinity existed in Paul’s epistle, let’s examine the verse...<snip>... but he limited himself so he is no longer equal to God by not being like God Almighty.

I've got enough of a backlog of the earlier quotes to deal with, so I'll have to come back to these.

Paul repeats over and over again that God is One. That was true when he was the pharisee Saul and remained true as Paul when he realised that everything he had hoped for as Saul had happened in and through Jesus.

You might want to give some thought to the baptism of Jesus (Matthew 3) to see how Paul can use talk of God as One, and yet write as he does about Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

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Light has always been an expression of guidance,hope thus its attributed to Jesus since Jesus came to bring guidance by bringing truth and knowledge of salvation

Since John is talking about the light that was the Creator of the universe coming to earth as a human, he can't be referring to 'guidance'.

Also the knowledge of salvation that Jesus appears to have brought to mankind was a belief in His divinity. Any other 'light' has long been extinguished.

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It says “the spirit” not “Holy spirit” he is referring to jesus spirit. What he is pretty much saying is jesus’ spirit had complete control of its own will instead of God having control.

When Paul talks about the Spirit in this letter or any other he's talking about the Holy Spirit e.g. 2 chapters later in Gal 5.

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It says “the spirit” not “Holy spirit” he is referring to jesus spirit. What he is pretty much saying is jesus’ spirit had complete control of its own will instead of God having control.

This can't be correct because later in 1 Peter 1:11 he talks about the OT prophets being inspired by the Spirit of Jesus. Notice how casually he uses the Name of Jesus as God. The Early Church had long decided that Jesus was God.

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Because you know you have no chance and ur church distinguishes “Ho theos” (the God) from “thoes” which has many meanings..<snip>...my interpretation is indeed correct.

I would invite any reader who wants to know what delights they might be missing, or are wondering at my refusal to go there, to use the power of Google.

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The passage says “one like a Son of Man”. it calls jesus a human.

Yes, Jesus was a human. He was also God.

So, continuing through the series of quotes you gave on p3. The idea behind the four Galatians quotes has been discussed above- Jesus said there would be a time when Torah would be “fulfilled”, and then things change radically.

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Did the disciples teach what Paul teached after Jesus’ went up to the heavens???

Yes. The disciples worked very closely with Paul, and the decision to move on from it was made after rigorous debate at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15).

Had they disagreed with Paul's views, in particular with what he was writing about Jesus as God, they would have had no choice other than to throw him out immediately.

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I would like to kindly request all participants to keep the dialogue polite and respectful. When giving examples or using metaphors, one doesn't need to use offensive or inflammatory ones to get their point across. When addressing a certain point, please do so without making personal remarks or judgements about the person you are quoting. 

We will edit the statements which were considered inappropriate and watch the topic carefully to ensure that the dialogue remains civil. 

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15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Here's where I think we are with this passage. There are a number of possible readings for this

No their is absolutely no “Numbers of reading” you are at the moment being stubborn after the context has been explained clearly, you are not the only one who is trying to runaway from this.

Monotheist: 

“Mark 10:17-18

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

Jesus questions a questioner for calling him “good teacher” the reason being is because he didn’t want any sort of praise not even a small one, jesus was simply being humble and says to the questioner, “no one is good except God alone” jesus wanted all praise to God.  This incident clearly shows Jesus is not God. Yet you guys deny it arrogantly”

Reply 

Trinitarian:

“You talk about Jesus asking the rich man, "why do you call me good?"  Why do you just assume out of context that he's not testing this man.  Jesus by no means is saying he's not good.  In fact, the opposite would be that he's bad.  He's not bad but very good.  In the end of the passage he tells the rich man to sell everything (which was not one of the 10 commandments) and to follow him.  Jesus knew his heart like only God does and does not say, "and follow your heavenly Father," but specifically says to follow him.”

Reply 

Monotheist:

“‘Why do you just assume out of context that he's not testing this man.’

How much of joke can ur assumptions be.

Mark 10:17-18

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

Jesus questions the questioner for calling him “Good teacher” then says to the questioner “No one is good except God alone” THEN jesus answers his Question.”

 

Quick footnote: no where do we see is testing rather Jesus questions the questioners minor praise by calling him “Good” jesus didn’t want any sort of praise not even the least rather he wanted all praise to God hence why he said “no one is good except God alone” then after that Jesus and his question ,which was what must he do to inherit eternal life, and says “19You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’” 20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Jesus loved him when the boy said he has kept these this shows that Jesus did encourage to keep the commandments and also preached to keep as we can see in many occasions. Jesus having the knowledge of the Unseen does not show in any way, shape or from that Jesus is God, Prophet Jesus is no different to other prophets who had the knowledge of the unseen when they prophecies about future events or what will happen to a particular person. Jesus was asking the boy to follow him physically, again this in no way, shape or form does it show jesus is God; jesus told the boy to sell everything he had and then to come follow him. Even when jesus tells the people to follow him that in no way shows he is God, jesus is carrying out God’s purpose and commands and he has the knowledge to the door of salvation so when jesus tells other people to follow him he is telling them to follow his teaching which God is preaching through him just like the previous prophets and to take him as a role model just like the previous prophets. And it is God who gives jesus followers as we have shown before. And also notice the boy didn’t call jesus “Good teacher” the second time rather he only called him “teacher” the boy recognised that Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise at all period.

 

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Yes, but they were using the word Eulogēmenos (blessed) towards Him which is calling Him good, only much stronger. He was invited to object to what people were saying and pointedly refused (Luke 19:38-40)

Prophecies are decreed by God. Think logically.... I shouldn’t even explain that to you.

 

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Jesus said there would be a time when Torah would be “fulfilled”, and then things change radically.

He doesn’t say any of that rather before he was handed over to the Romans his last moments with his disciples jesus says to his disciples to hold on to the Law like he does John 15:10

Mathew 5:17, 519-20

mathew 7:24-27

mathew 15:

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Yes, Jesus was a human. He was also God.

 

You can’t be limited and Unlimited at exact same time it’s irrational, use ur head on that one I’m not gonna explain myself. I can quote verses and etc but for once why don’t you he productive and think rationality and logically.

 

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

This can't be correct because later in 1 Peter 1:11 he talks about the OT prophets being inspired by the Spirit of Jesus. Notice how casually he uses the Name of Jesus as God. The Early Church had long decided that Jesus was God.

You are deliberately mistranslating at this point.

1. It’s not peters epistle rather it belongs to a follower of Paul who attributed it to Peter.

2. For arguments sakes even if the prophets were being inspired by “the spirit of Jesus” that doesn’t  shown any divinity what so ever. 

1petar 1:3 “3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”

praise to be to the God....of our lord Jesus christ.

The Pauline author didn’t believe jesus was God almighty at all. Rather he believed jesus had a God.

1Peter 1:21

“21Through him(Jesus) you believe in God, who raised him(Jesus) from the dead....”

We can clearly see jesus is being distinguished from God almighty. 

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

This can't be correct because later in 1 Peter 1:11 he talks about the OT prophets being inspired by the Spirit of Jesus. Notice how casually he uses the Name of Jesus as God. The Early Church had long decided that Jesus was God.

every Greek text even scholars agree that Ho theos is distinguished from theos.

at this point you are denying it out of arrogance. 

A simple google research will show what I’m saying is correct. 

15 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Yes

Wrong.

Read James 2:8-11, 2:15 and above. Paul taught on the contrary. Read my refute on Paul.

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16 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Since John is talking about the light that was the Creator of the universe coming to earth as a human, he can't be referring to 'guidance'.

Also the knowledge of salvation that Jesus appears to have brought to mankind was a belief in His divinity. Any other 'light' has long been extinguished.

No basis. I’ve already explained it. But you arrogantly deny.  

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16 hours ago, Leslie P said:

You might want to give some thought to the baptism of Jesus

Mathew 3:16

“...he saw the Spirit of God”

 

the spirit of God came in Jesus. 

And God created a sound wave and conveyed His message.

Paul believes The Father was God Almighty alone while Jesus was subordinate to the Father.

you as alway give baseless interpretations which have absolutely ZERO relation to the context. 

Stop running away & accept the crystal clear. You are holding on to nothing but mere wishful thinking and fantasies. 

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On 6/29/2020 at 8:42 AM, THREE1THREE said:

No their is absolutely no “Numbers of reading” 

Thanks for the thoughts again.

The points I'm making are: there are a number of possible explanations for why Jesus said what He did. For example, asking the man to focus on where the Torah came from unlocks ways of thinking about Jesus. Remember that the question the man asked was a very, very common one in First Century Israel- when the Kingdom of God came, who was 'in' and who was 'out'. Josephus looks at this in his writings. That's the (well-known) question Jesus is answering.

My explanation means that Jesus' answer refers to the question, rather than going off in a very different direction before coming back as your reconstruction requires.

Jesus questions a questioner for calling him “good teacher” the reason being is because he didn’t want any sort of praise not even a small one,

Jesus was happy to accept praise in other contexts. Jesus praise-filled entry into Jerusalem was prophesied, but He still accepted the praise, aimed at Him. He said of Himself "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” He's just not going to get upset about being called good.

The Pauline author didn’t believe jesus was God almighty at all.

If he's a Pauline author, he believed Jesus was God. Paul was very clear on that point.

1petar 1:3 “3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”

God the Father with Jesus as God the Son. By this stage of history, 'Son (of God)' as a phrase within the Church meant the unique and divine Son, having moved on massively from the OT meaning.

1Peter 1:21 “21Through him(Jesus) you believe in God, who raised him(Jesus) from the dead....”

God the Father raised God the Son.

Mathew 3:16 “...he saw the Spirit of God” the spirit of God came in Jesus. And God created a sound wave and conveyed His message.

You can’t be limited and Unlimited at exact same time it’s irrational,

You have the Spirit of God descending onto the Son of God, while God the Father tells the crowd what is going on.

Read James 2:8-11, 2:15 and above.

 

So going back to your posts on p3, we've got as far as James 2 which is also quoted in these posts.

We know that dropping Torah obedience was extremely controversial. Paul's letters, and Acts, outline the problems, but also the reasons why it happened.

Torah was this system of rules designed to define what is right/wrong, defining the boundary between those inside the Kingdom of God (the Jews) and those outside (the Gentiles).

On keeping Torah- as Jesus said, it remained in place 'until everything is fulfilled' i.e. the crucifixion/resurrection thing. After that, it is no longer needed.

Acts 15 goes into detail about how the disciples implemented this, detailing the arguments and conclusion. Remember the decision to end mandatory following of Torah was made by Jesus' disciples, the ones who knew Him best.

 

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On 5/19/2020 at 7:57 AM, Nathan said:

Greetings! I would like to open up this topic to discuss the person of Jesus. In the Bible, Jesus clearly says that He is the Son of God. C.S. Lewis is one of my favorite authors and this quote from him is very thought provoking. Here it is: “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” I would love to hear your thoughts and also your perspectives on Jesus according to the Qu'ran. Thank you!

Or maybe he was misquoted?

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12 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Jesus praise-filled entry into Jerusalem was prophesied, but He still accepted the praise, aimed at Him.

Again didn’t i make myself crystal clear they God created prophecies to be fulfilled. 

Prophecies happens so they can identify the true messiah obviously if they didn’t happen jesus would be a false messiah. 

15 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

The points I'm making are: there are a number of possible explanations for why Jesus said what He did

Absolutely zero. You are running away from the context and making up random explanations that have absolutely ZERO relation the incident and context. Check out “Trinitarian fantasies” thread.

 

18 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

God the Father raised God the Son.

Two Gods..... you are distinguishing them.

 

19 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

God the Father with Jesus as God the Son. By this stage of history, 'Son (of God)' as a phrase within the Church meant the unique and divine Son, having moved on massively from the OT meaning.

No again that’s just mere fantasies all the early churches believed Jesus was the son of God when Paul came into play thats it before it they were Unitarian. This claim your making is just mere wishful thinking. 

again that’s dualism you’re distinguishing God the Father from God the son.

31 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

You have the Spirit of God descending onto the Son of God, while God the Father tells the crowd what is going on.

You are distinguishing Jesus from God and you believe the the spirit of God ,which is God’s power to strengthen, strengthened Jesus. 

No sign of the trinity at all.

34 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

So going back to your posts on p3, we've got as far as James 2 which is also quoted in these posts.

We know that dropping Torah obedience was extremely controversial. Paul's letters, and Acts, outline the problems, but also the reasons why it happened.

Torah was this system of rules designed to define what is right/wrong, defining the boundary between those inside the Kingdom of God (the Jews) and those outside (the Gentiles).

On keeping Torah- as Jesus said, it remained in place 'until everything is fulfilled' i.e. the crucifixion/resurrection thing. After that, it is no longer needed.

Acts 15 goes into detail about how the disciples implemented this, detailing the arguments and conclusion. Remember the decision to end mandatory following of Torah was made by Jesus' disciples, the ones who knew Him best.

Just read the thread “Saul(Paul) refuted” it covers all of this.

 

35 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

he's a Pauline author, he believed Jesus was God. Paul was very clear on that point.

Paul believed Jesus was subordinate to the Father. 

 1 Corinthians 8:6

“6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”

 

Paul makes it clear that “the Father” is God, not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. If Paul was a trinitarian he would say, “there is but one God, the Father  the Son The Holy Spirit,...” Paul calls God “the Father” the same way Prophet Ezra, Daniel Jeremiah called God “Allah”.

 

Ephesians 1:3

“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

“Praise be to the God....of our lord Jesus Christ” 

Romans 15:6

6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus.

 

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On 7/2/2020 at 7:40 PM, THREE1THREE said:

...

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Let's start with the next issue from p3: Mathew 7:24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.” In First Century Israel this would have been clearly seen as a reference to the Temple.

The old Temple was on its way out, and would be destroyed. Jesus is bringing in God's Kingdom, and what Jesus is doing here is inviting His listeners to build the New Temple by following Him.

Again didn’t i make myself crystal clear they God created prophecies to be fulfilled.

Absolutely, Jesus had to fulfil the prophecy. But if He is prepared as the Messiah to accept complete adulation during the entry into Jerusalem, he would surely be prepared as the Messiah to accept a casual kind word in other contexts?

Then there's all the other examples “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No-one comes to the Father except through me”. Hardly the talk of someone worried about being called good.

Absolutely zero. You are running away from the context and making up random explanations that have absolutely ZERO relation the incident and context.

I've explained that the problem with your reconstruction is that it requires a sudden change of policy (as above) and a change of subject, before changing back. I'm not clear what the problem is with my reconstruction. Could you unpack the issue a bit?

No again that’s just mere fantasies all the early churches believed Jesus was the son of God when Paul came into play thats it before it they were Unitarian

Where is your evidence for this? Given that what Paul is writing is obviously uncontroversial (in contrast to making Torah optional) it seems certain that people understood that Jesus was God long before Paul wrote.

Ephesians 1:3 “Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”“Praise be to the God....of our lord Jesus Christ”; Romans 15:6 “so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”


We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus.

It's the Father-Son thing again. Paul is worshipping the Father who showed Himself in Jesus. As Jesus put it: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. “

No sign of the trinity at all.

(Baptism of Jesus Matthew 3)

Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one place. An excellent way to visualise how the Trinity works.

1 Corinthians 8:6 Paul makes it clear that “the Father” is God, not the Son nor the Holy Spirit. If Paul was a trinitarian he would say, “there is but one God, the Father  the Son The Holy Spirit,...”

Let's read the whole passage, because this is terribly important:

We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

So Paul is saying

-There is only One God. Very, very clearly he says it.

-He attacks polytheism because there is only One God.

-He then quotes the Shema, the holiest prayer in Judaism “Hear, O Israel: the LORD is our God, the LORD is One.”

-But he has modified the Shema to include Jesus in with the second part, naming Him as the Kyrios (who is God) in the second part. There can be no doubt that Paul includes Jesus in with the One God.

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1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

In First Century Israel this would have been clearly seen as a reference to the Temple.

The old Temple was on its way out, and would be destroyed. Jesus is bringing in God's Kingdom, and what Jesus is doing here is inviting His listeners to build the New Temple by following Him.

Jesus is saying a parable to the people to understand what are the consequences of neglecting his teachings and what are the consequences of the one who practices what jesus taught. In short the who put into practice jesus teaching will pass in the day of Judgement and the one who didn’t will fall since he followed no law of righteousness and submission to God.

 

1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

Absolutely, Jesus had to fulfil the prophecy. But if He is prepared as the Messiah to accept complete adulation during the entry into Jerusalem, he would surely be prepared as the Messiah to accept a casual kind word in other contexts?

Then there's all the other examples “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No-one comes to the Father except through me”. Hardly the talk of someone worried about being called good.

As John 1 says the law of God came through Moses and grace and truth came through jesus. 

The OT is partially corrupted even early Christian traditions which date to the mid first century some say early 2nd century which is a copy of a ealier version in the very early first century, show the disciples believed the OT contained some corrupted parts and belived prophets of God are infallible and they had a criterion to distinguish truth from falsehood contained within OT. Jesus had to make clear what sect he belonged and etc since jesus was in his final moments with his disciples in this context. Go read “Saul(Paul) refuted” thread it answers this in-depth or see “Trinitarians fantasies” thread. 

1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

Father, Son and Holy Spirit all in one place. An excellent way to visualise how the Trinity works.

Picture this in your head. Jesus ,a man, came to John got baptised then a voice was heard (which is God creating sound waves) then the God strengthens jesus with the holy spirit which came in a form of a dove supposedly. three of this things are DISTINCT from each other... their not one, so it’s either you believe God is made up of three parts or the three make a group called “God”.

 

1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

Let's read the whole passage, because this is terribly important:

 

1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

So Paul is saying

-There is only One God. Very, very clearly he says it.

-He attacks polytheism because there is only One God.

-He then quotes the Shema, the holiest prayer in Judaism “Hear, O Israel: the LORD is our God, the LORD is One.”

-But he has modified the Shema to include Jesus in with the second part, naming Him as the Kyrios (who is God) in the second part. There can be no doubt that Paul includes Jesus in with the One God.

 

1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

We know that “An idol is nothing at all in the world” and that “There is no God but one.” For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

He calls God “the Father” and he is distinguishing Him from Jesus. It’s crystal clear. 

Romans 15:6 “6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

”..you may glorify the God...of our Lord Jesus Christ” 

paul believes Jesus has a God and that God is jesus’ father.  Samething is shown in Ephesians 1:3 and Colossians 1:3. 

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On 7/5/2020 at 6:16 PM, THREE1THREE said:

...

Again, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I am impressed by your level of knowledge of the Bible!

So first of all, back to the p3 material. It was certainly true that Saul persecuted the Early Church. It seems very clear that he had some sort of experience which turned him around 180 degrees (not a dream, but an absolutely compelling vision).

You say he attempted to change the beliefs of the Early Church. Why? Saul was a fanatical Pharisee. Why would he want to make the Jewish-Christian sect both highly successful and even more deviant from Judaism? He suffered horrendously for doing what he did (2 Corinthians 11).

It makes no sense. What evidence do you have that he was trying to destroy the message of Jesus as Paul? And don't forget that the disciples- the ones who knew Jesus' message best- were supporting him all the way.

Jesus is saying a parable...submission to God.

In first century Israel, someone talking in a religious context about a house on a rock would have been referring to the Jerusalem Temple. His audience would have been very aware of the reference. It's hard to overstress the impact of the Temple on first century Judaism.

I mean I don't disagree with what you said, but it goes much further in that Jesus is announcing the imminent Kingdom of God. Jesus is saying that the New Temple will be built around Him.

The OT is partially corrupted even early Christian traditions which date to the mid first century some say early 2nd century which is a copy of a ealier version in the very early first century, show the disciples believed the OT contained some corrupted parts and belived prophets of God are infallible and they had a criterion to distinguish truth from falsehood contained within OT.

Could you provide references for this, because I'm not clear what you're referring to here?

Jesus had to make clear what sect he belonged and etc

Again, I'm a bit unclear. Which sect would that be?

He calls God “the Father” and he is distinguishing Him from Jesus.

Who is God the Son, distinct from God the Father.

Romans 15:6 “6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”... paul believes Jesus has a God and that God is jesus’ father. Samething is shown in Ephesians 1:3 and Colossians 1:3

And yet Paul writes (Phil 2:10) that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth“ clearly referencing Isaiah 45: “for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone are deliverance and strength.’” Clearly Paul thinks Jesus is God.

I think you're getting a bit confused about how Paul uses the phrase “God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” to refer to the role of Jesus. The meaning is 'God, who is the the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ'.

It's the same God..Lord...structure as the 1 Corinthians 8 passage- “there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him”. Notice how Jesus has taken on the role of Kyrios- Lord, who in the original Shema is definitively God.

So to stress the point, Paul has taken the ultimate prayer of monotheism, the One God prayer, and inserted Jesus into it in such a way that makes it clear that Jesus is God.

 


 

 

 

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On 5/20/2020 at 8:05 AM, Nathan said:

Thank you Mahdavist for helping me to know what you believe. There is one thing that I don't understand though. If Jesus is not God, and He wasn't crucified, then how could He return on earth before the day of judgement? If Jesus is only human, how could He live for thousands of years?

If a tree could live for thousands of years inhaling and exhaling, wouldn't you give even a spec of chance that God has powers to lengthen or shorten years for some individual esp. when its the prophet? See this live miracle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_trees.

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On 6/21/2020 at 10:47 PM, Warilla said:

Jesus was not a liar. But likely the authors of the Bible you have were.

If not apply muslim hadith science criteria to the Bible and show what is authentically attributed to Jesus.

If you think islamic hadith science is inferior. Then please demonstrate how you varify that these are Jesus words.

Also please state where Jesus himself said he was the begotten son of God.

There's a whole industry dealing with authenticity of the New Testament. It's quite helpful in discussion with non-Christians, because it stops people waving a hand and saying “the NT is completely unhistorical”- they have to do some serious History, or lose credibility.

I don't know a lot about Hadith science, but not dissimilar methods get used to determine sihha- 'other identical reports from other transmitters' corresponds to multiple attestation etc. Much of the similarities are common to all historical method.

Those using historical authenticity to look at the NT use things like criterion of embarrassment (it was very embarrassing to have your Messiah die, so that definitely happened), criteria of discontinuity (the idea of Jesus as Messiah was denied by Judaism and faded a lot as Christianity lost its Jewish roots, so Jesus would certainly have made that claim) and so on.

As to what Jesus said- it is pretty certain that He made the claim to be God at various points directly and indirectly, because there is no way the Jewish Early Church would have headed off in that direction without His pointing them towards it. The parts recorded in the NT would include- Parable of the tenants (Mark 12) in which the son gets killed; John 5:18 where He claims to be equal to God. Finally, Jesus in parable (Luke 12 all about return of the King/Master) and in action (entry into Jerusalem, discussed above) were saying that in Jesus we have the long promised return of God to Jerusalem.

 

 

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On 7/8/2020 at 1:40 AM, Leslie P said:

So first of all, back to the p3 material. It was certainly true that Saul persecuted the Early Church. It seems very clear that he had some sort of experience which turned him around 180 degrees (not a dream, but an absolutely compelling vision).

You say he attempted to change the beliefs of the Early Church. Why? Saul was a fanatical Pharisee. Why would he want to make the Jewish-Christian sect both highly successful and even more deviant from Judaism? He suffered horrendously for doing what he did (2 Corinthians 11).

It makes no sense. What evidence do you have that he was trying to destroy the message of Jesus as Paul? And don't forget that the disciples- the ones who knew Jesus' message best- were supporting him all the way.

Here’s how we’re gonna approach this 

1. Logically 

2. History 

3. “Scripture”

now logically, Paul had the upper hand, so obviously history and the gospels will be in his favour theological and historical wise and would betray Paul as a good guy. The Pauline epistles predated the 4 gospels. The book of Acts was made by Luke, Pauls best friend so obviously Paul’s buddy is gonna try and betray Paul in a really good touching light and twist history in Paul’s favor.

 

Now history, Christian traditions the Clementine of Homolies, Majority of the scholars agree that it dates back within the 2nd century some say mid and say very early. And Recognitions majority of the scholars agree it dates back to the early 3rd century. 

All Scholars agree that the Homollies was a copy of a original one(now lost) which was in Greek which dated back to the time of Simon peter. All Scholars agree that Recognitions the current Latin one, was a copy of a Greek version(now lost) which was a copy of another Greek version(now lost) which was the original Homollies.  

Scholars are in agreement that alterations forgery’s have taken place on the Homollies for political and theological reasons and also parts of it have been taken out for the same reasons but those parts are perserved In the Recognitions. Scholars also agree that Recognitions has been through alterations and forgery’s and parts taken out but these parts have been persevered in the Homollies. Homollies didn’t suffer much from Forgery’s and alterations like Recognitions did since Recognitions went through that twice while Homollies went through that once.

the Truth in both of them is a lot, All scholars agree that for the most part between Homollies and Recognitions are word for word. 

Simon peter hints out to us a certain criteria to distinguish truth from falsehood and displays an example for us. So we will be using that criteria which God persevered out of mercy and grace. 

"And when matters were at that point that they should come, some one of our enemies(a reference to Paul), entering the temple with a few men, began to cry out, and to say, What do you mean!, O men of Israel why are you so easily hurried on? Why are you led headlong by most miserable men, who are deceived by Simon, a magician?' While he was thus speaking, and adding more to the same effect, and while James the bishop was refuting him, he began to excite the people and to raise a tumult, so that the people might not be able to hear what was said. Therefore he began to drive all into confusion with shouting, and to undo what had been arranged with much labour, and at the same time to reproach the priests, and to enrage them with revilings and abuse, and, like a madman, to excite every one to murder, saying, Why do you hesitate? Oh sluggish and inert, why do we not lay hands upon them, and pull all these fellows to pieces?' When he had said this, he first, seizing a strong brand from the altar, set the example of smiting. Then others also, seeing him, were carried away with like readiness. Then ensued a tumult on either side, of the beating and the beaten. Much blood is shed; there is a confused flight, in the midst of which that enemy(reference to Paul) attacked James, and threw him headlong from the top of the steps; and supposing him to be dead, he cared not to inflict further violence upon him." -Recognitions, book1,CH.LXX 

over Paul attacks James the Just and calls Simon peter a “magician” and terrorises the original followers of Christ. Btw their is a reason why they don’t mention Paul’s name which i will explains later on in this post.  

Luke does narrate that Choas did happen in the church in Jerusalem,

On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.” -Acts 8:1-3

But Luke does what he does best which is fabricate false characters such as Stephen and says that “stephen” was attacked when really it was James the Just who was attacked, Luke knew that if he narrated the true event then theirs no point of being Pauline since the narration exposes Paul even more since James and Paul disagreed on theology and fundamentals which then clearly shows Paul was a false disciple. Luke is desperately trying to lighten Paul’s wickedness to point that Paul was not the one attakckg “Stephen” rather it was Paul’s “companion” regardless of that Luke still shoots himself in the foot by saying Paul approved of “Stephens” killing. 

"But our friends lifted him up, for they were both more numerous and more powerful than the others; but, from their fear of God, they rather suffered themselves to be killed by an inferior force, than they would kill others. But when the evening came the priests shut up the temple, and we returned to the house of James, and spent the night there in prayer. Then before daylight we went down to Jericho, to the number of 5000 men. Then after three days one of the brethren came to us from Gamaliel, whom we mentioned before, bringing to us secret tidings that that enemy had received a commission from Caiaphas, the chief priest, that he should arrest all who believed in Jesus, and should go to Damascus with his letters, and that there also, employing the help of the unbelievers, he should make havoc among the faithful; and that he was hastening to Damascus chiefly on this account, because he believed that Peter had fled thither. And about thirty days thereafter he stopped on his way while passing through Jericho going to Damascus. At that time we were absent, having gone out to the sepulchres of two brethren which were whitened of themselves every year, by which miracle the fury of many against us was restrained, because they saw that our brethren were in remembrance before God." -Recognitions, book 1, CH.LXXI

Luke narrates that Paul did go to the Caiaphas and was Asking if anyone in the synagogues belonged to the Way sect which was Jesus religion so he can send them to jail after attacking In Jerusalem. 

“1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem.”-Acts 9:1-2

12“On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests.” -Acts 26:12

Paul wasn’t just giving “murderous threats” to the followers of Christ(they are called “disciples” over here) rather he did murder some people as we can see and tried to kill James the Just. Luke is desperately trying to lighten things up in hopes for the people that get deceived by them won’t have too much doubt about Paul.  Paul had that intention and to go Damascus because he thought that Simon had went ahead of him. 

“3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”

5“Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.

“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6“Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus.” -Acts 9:3-8

When Paul went ahead to do that on his way he made up his mind that he would not get rid of Jesus followers because the Jews themselves were divided regarding the the-Way because some tolerated them and would team up with them against Hellenistic Paul since they adhere to the law and and some simply outright give them no chance to live regardless of being Hellenistic or not. Paul knew that he would cause a lot more chaos if he started to do the samething in Damascus and end up getting himself killed this time thus he fabricated a vision to alter Jesus’ religion spirituality but that also resulted in chaos aswell. Hence why we see Hellenistic beliefs all over the Gosepls and Pauline epistles. 

Now when Paul did this, this is when he started to introduce Jesus is the son of God, since he was preaching to the Gentiles he was able to getaway with it but Simon was behind his back every corner trying to refute him and faced persecutions from him. I’ve shown in my Paul refute how he was persecuting Simon which you overlooked. 

 

“Saul spent several days with the believers in Damascus. 20At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21All those who heard him were astonished and asked, ‘Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?’” -Acts 9:19-21 

the people in Damascus didn’t believe him since they knew it is blasphemous to say such thing and the followers of Christ also knew what he was saying was a heretical belief, the Jews themselves knew Paul was a imposter and wasn’t an actual disciple of Christ since they heard about the hovic that took place so when he realised he had no chance he decided to go preach to the Gentile Greeks to stop Jesus message from being spread to the gentiles all around by the disciples. The Jews plotted against Paul since he was preaching many blasphemous things (I will be showing later on on my posts) and also was causing choas amongst followers of Christ. Before he started his mission to deceive the Gentiles he went to Jerusalem to deceive the disciples of Christ so that when he preached his Hellenistic blasphemous beliefs he can claim that the disciples approved of his apostleship and he is a really of apostle of Christ, the proper narration regarding visiting the disciples was that he only visited Simon saying that he had a vision that jesus appeared to him. 

“23After many days had gone by, there was a conspiracy among the Jews to kill him, 24but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him. 25But his followers took him by night and lowered him in a basket through an opening in the wall.” -Acts 9:23-25

“26When he(Paul) came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple.” -Acts 9:26 

Simon already knew Paul was a imposter because of his contradicting teachings and beliefs, despite all of that Paul still decided to fabricate a false story of a vision which supposedly Jesus appoints as a apostle to the gentiles. Simon warned the people about Paul and not to fall for his trap. 

 

“Then after three months were fulfilled, he ordered me to fast for several days, and when our brethren rejoiced at my God-gifted regeneration, not many days after he turned to the elders in presence of all the church, and charged them, saying:  “Our Master and Prophet, who hath sent us, declared to us that the wicked one, having disputed with him forty days, and having prevailed nothing against him, promised that he would send apostles from amongst his subjects, to deceive. Above all, remember to shun apostle or teacher or prophet who does not first accurately compare his preaching with that of James, who was called the brother of my Master, and to whom was entrusted to administer the church of the Hebrews in Jerusalem,—and that even though he come to you with witnesses: lest the wickedness which disputed forty days with the Master, and prevailed nothing, should afterwards, like lightning falling from heaven upon the earth, send a preacher to your injury, as now he has sent Simon(Saul) upon us, preaching, under pretence of the truth, in the name of the Master, and sowing error. He who hath sent us, said, ‘Many shall come to me in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.  By their fruits ye shall know them.’” -Homollies, XI, CH.35

over here Paul is seen as “Simon” the reason being is because when Homollies was altred they removed Paul’s name and put a fictional name for Paul so that Paul won’t be exposed outright which would lead to the conclusion that Paul is an imposter. 

They put the name “Simon” for political reasons. When they put “Simon” their intention was to betray Simom peter being bad guy and Paul being the good guy the true disciple of Christ but they failed to do so because it was already established from the time of Jesus that Simon peter was Jesus’ successor and was very wide spread, so they had to fabricate person and that person was “Simon magus” after realising their big mistake and they made him a “magician” since Paul called Simon a “magician” and they as followers of Paul also called him a “magician”. So all the passages that call “magus” “Simon the magician” it was originally a refrence to Simon the disciple christ. The fact that Jesus emphasis on simons successorship during his mission shows that he knew that in the future Simon would be percuted and he emphasised a lot on practising the law as an evidence in Simon’s favour.

“Why are you led headlong by most miserable men, who are deceived by Simon, a magician?” -Recognitions, book 1, CH.LXX

Paul didn’t meet with the standards of James the Just which i have shown in the previous comments nor of Jesus. 

 

28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. -Romans 3:28

“16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.”—Galatians 2:16

“13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us” -Galatians 3:13

“8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.” -James 2:8-11

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.” -James 2:14-19

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. -Mathew 5:17-20

 

On 7/8/2020 at 1:40 AM, Leslie P said:

In first century Israel, someone talking in a religious context about a house on a rock would have been referring to the Jerusalem Temple. His audience would have been very aware of the reference. It's hard to overstress the impact of the Temple on first century Judaism.

I mean I don't disagree with what you said, but it goes much further in that Jesus is announcing the imminent Kingdom of God. Jesus is saying that the New Temple will be built around Him.

Again your “interpretation” has no relation to the parable whatsoever.... no correspondence at all. Very desperate attempts.

It’s a parable about the one who keeps law and the one who doesn’t.

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” -Matthew 7:24-27

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.”

this parable shows that the person who lives his/her life by practicing jesus teaching will be able to stand tall and face all trails and calamties because jesus teachings granted that person the wisdom and power to face such things and won’t go astray, fall into depression and eventually go to hell. The rock (I.efoundation) is jesus teachings and the rain and the stream and the wind are trails and calamties and the house represents the persons life that he/she built by living by jesus’ teachings. 

 

“26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

The person who does not live by Jesus’ teachings when he/she faces calamties and trails he/she will not be able encounter them because he/she did not practice them if they had practiced them then they would have had the wisdom and power to encounter them and won’t be miserable and fall into depression and go astray. 

Now since Paul didn’t keep the law and taught on the contrary, he went very astray and eventually fell, if he had gained wisdom from Simon he would have not been astray and fall. 

One thing worth mentioning is that Luke Pauls buddy in his own historical book, book of acts, fabricated “Simon Magus” aswell In hopes to distinguish Saul from “Simon magus” so that it appears like “Simon Magus” in the Homollies is not Saul, in hopes that the Victims won’t doubt Paul the imposter “apostleship”. 

Here’s the debate between Simon peter and Paul on his so called vision.

And Simon(Saul/Paul) said:  “If you maintain that apparitions do not always reveal the truth, yet for all that, visions and dreams, being God-sent, do not speak falsely in regard to those matters which they wish to tell.”  And Peter said:  “You were right in saying that, being God-sent, they do not speak falsely.  But it is uncertain if he who sees has seen a God-sent dream.”  And Simon said:  “If he who has had the vision is just, he has seen a true vision.”  And Peter said:  “You were right.  But who is just, if he stands in need of a vision that he may learn what he ought to learn, and do what he ought to do?”  And Simon(Saul) said:  “Grant me this, that the just man alone can see a true vision, and I shall then reply to that other point.  For I have come to the conclusion that an impious man does not see a true dream.”  And Peter said:  “This is false; and I can prove it both apart from Scripture and by Scripture; but I do not undertake to persuade you.  For the man who is inclined to fall in love with a bad woman, does not change his mind so as to care for a lawful union with another woman in every respect good; but sometimes they love the worse woman through prepossessions, though they are conscious that there is another who is more excellent.  And you are ignorant, in consequence of some such state of mind.”  And Simon(Saul/Paul) said:  “Dismiss this subject, and discuss the matter on which you promised to speak.  For it seems to me impossible that impious men should receive dreams from God in any way whatsoever.”

And Peter said:  “I remember that I promised to prove this point, and to give my proofs in regard to it from Scripture and apart from Scripture.  And now listen to what I say.  We know that there are many (if you will pardon me the statement; and if you don’t, I can appeal to those who are present as judges) who worship idols, commit adultery, and sin in every way, and yet they see true visions and dreams, and some of them have also apparitions of demons.  For I maintain that the eyes of mortals cannot see the incorporeal God. it is not because God envies, but that He cannot be seen by man for he who sees God cannot live. If any angel be sent that he may he seen by a man, he is changed into flesh, that he may be able to be seen by flesh.  For no one can see an angel.  But if one sees an apparition, he should know that this is the apparition of an evil demon.

“But it is manifest that the impious see true visions and dreams, and I can prove it from Scripture.  Finally, then, it is written in the Torah, how Abimelech, who was impious, wished to defile the wife of just Abraham by intercourse, and how he heard the commandment from God in his sleep, as the Scripture says, not to touch her, because she was dwelling with her husband.  Pharaoh, also an impious man, saw a dream in regard to the fulness and thinness of the ears of corn, to whom Joseph said, when he gave the interpretation, that the dream had come from God. Nebuchadnezzar, who worshipped images, and ordered those who worshipped God to be cast into fire, saw a dream extending over the whole age of the world. And let no one say, ‘No one who is impious sees a vision when awake.’  That is false.  Nebuchadnezzar himself, having ordered three men to be cast into fire, saw a fourth when he looked into the furnace, and said, ‘Behold, I see four free men walking in the midst of the fire, and there is no wound upon them, and the form of the fourth one is like that of an angel." .’And nevertheless, though they saw apparitions, visions, and dreams, they were impious.  Thus, we cannot infer with absolute certainty that the man who has seen visions, and dreams, and apparitions, is undoubtedly pious.  For in the case of the pious man, the truth gushes up natural and pure in his mind, not worked up through dreams, but granted to the good through intelligence.

“Thus to me also was the Prophet revealed by God. I know what is the meaning of revelation, having learned it in my own case.  For at the very time when the Master said, ‘Who do they say that I am?’ and when I heard one saying one thing of him, and another another, it came into my heart to say (and I know not, therefore, how I said it), ‘Thou art the Messanger of the living God.’ But He, pronouncing me blessed, pointed out to me that it was God who had revealed it to me; and from this time I learned that revelation is knowledge gained without instruction, and without apparition and dreams.  And this is indeed the case.  For in the soul which has been placed in us by God, there is all the truth; but it is covered and revealed by the hand of God, who works so far as each one through his knowledge deserves. But the declaration of anything by means of apparitions and dreams from outside is a proof, not that it comes from revelation, but from wrath.  Finally, then, it is written in the Torah, that God, being angry, said to Aaron and Miriam, ‘If a prophet arise from amongst you, I shall make myself known to him through visions and dreams, but not so as to my servant Moses; because With him I speak mouth to mouth; plainly and not in riddles, and he beholds the attributes of the Lord. So why were you not afraid to speak against My servant Moses ? .’  You see how the statements of wrath are made through visions and dreams, but the statements to a friend are made mouth to mouth, and not through riddles and visions and dreams, as to an enemy.

If, then, our Jesus appeared to you in a vision, made himself known to you, and spoke to you, it was as one who is enraged with an adversary; and this is the reason why it was through visions and dreams, or through revelations that were from outside, that he spoke to you.  But can any one be rendered fit for instruction through apparitions?  And if you will say, ‘It is possible,’ then I ask, ‘Why did our teacher abide and discourse a whole year to those who were awake?’  And how are we to believe your word, when you tell us that he appeared to you?  And how did he appear to you, when you entertain opinions contrary to his teaching?  But if you were seen and taught by him, and became his apostle for a single hour, proclaim his utterances, interpret his sayings, love his apostles, contend not with me who companied with him.  For in direct opposition to me, who am a firm rock, the foundation of the Church, you now stand.  If you were not opposed to me, you would not accuse me, and revile the truth proclaimed by me, in order that I may not be believed when I state what I myself have heard with my own ears from the Master, as if I were evidently a person that was condemned and in bad repute. But if you say that I am condemned, you bring an accusation against God, who revealed the Christ to me, and you inveigh against Him who pronounced me blessed on account of the revelation.  But if, indeed, you really wish to work in the cause of truth, learn first of all from us what we have learned from him, and, becoming a disciple of the truth, become a fellow-worker with us.”

When Simon(Saul) heard this, he said:  “Far be it from me to become his or your disciple.  For I am not ignorant of what I ought to know; but the inquiries which I made as a learner were made that I may see if you can prove that actual sight is more distinct than apparition. But you spoke according to your own pleasure; you did not prove.  And now, tomorrow I shall come to your opinions in regard to God, whom you affirmed to be the framer of the world; and in my discussion with you, I shall show that he is not the highest, nor good, and that your teacher made the same statements as I now do; and I shall prove that you have not understood him.”  On saying this he went away, not wishing to listen to what might be said to the propositions which he had laid down. (Homollies XVII, ch.15-20)

 

If this is debate is between Paul and Simon is not enough then here’s this, 

Luke 10:18

“I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.”

Acts 26:12-18

12“On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, a ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15“Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

“Then after three months were fulfilled, he ordered me to fast for several days, and when our brethren rejoiced at my God-gifted regeneration, not many days after he turned to the elders in presence of all the church, and charged them, saying:  “Our Master and Prophet, who hath sent us, declared to us that the wicked one, having disputed with him forty days, and having prevailed nothing against him, promised that he would send apostles from amongst his subjects, to deceive. Above all, remember to shun apostle or teacher or prophet who does not first accurately compare his preaching with that of James, who was called the brother of my Master, and to whom was entrusted to administer the church of the Hebrews in Jerusalem,—and that even though he come to you with witnesses: lest the wickedness which disputed forty days with the Master, and prevailed nothing, should afterwards, like lightning falling from heaven upon the earth, send a preacher to your injury, as now he has sent Simon(Saul) upon us, preaching, under pretence of the truth, in the name of the Master, and sowing error. He who hath sent us, said, ‘Many shall come to me in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.  By their fruits ye shall know them.’” -Homollies, XI, CH.35

you do the math. 

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There are many good arguments to the effect that Jesus himself had more in common with the Pharisees than the Pauline compilers and editors of the Gospels divulge. For example, even Acts admits that Rabbi Gamaliel, a Pharisaic scion, not only defended “the Way” from Pauline persecution, but also backed Simon Peter’s claim to leadership of the movement. Yet the Gospels, being heavily altered and redacted, betray the anti-Pharisee, pro-Sadducee/pro-Hellene influence of Saul the imposter and his Pauline followers. I recommend reading any one of the numerous books and/or articles, including short essays, authored by Hyam Maccoby, an informed scholar whose politically incorrect (to the Pauline Christians) views have rendered many of his works out of print. Notably, there aren’t too many Shia hadith attesting to the alleged hostility on the part of the Jewish masses and Pharisaic leaders against Jesus and/or “the Way.” The continued survival of Jewish-Christian communities east of the Roman Empire until the rise of Islam attests to the fact that Jesus and his pro-Torah movement had much more following among the Jews than the Pauline Christians admitted, implying that Jesus’ message lost solely due to massive political persecution and skulduggery on the part of the Pauline Christians, including the (Hellenistic) Trinitarians, who eventually seized control of the Roman Empire via covert operations and financial influence. This is why most of the Jewish-Christians later reverted to Islam upon hearing the message of the Prophet, which confirmed the message of Jesus and his designated successor Simon Peter. It was mainly the pro-Gentile Sadducees, the “chief priests and (collaborator – ed.) scribes,” who sided with the Pauline Hellenists against the Pharisees and Jesus’ followers. This is important, since the Roman Empire later influenced the chief promoters of Zionism, the British and American Empires. Zionism owes far more to the Sadducees and Pauline Hellenists than it does to rabbinic Judaism, the latter of which was fairly closely aligned with the broad thrust of Jesus’ message. This is why antisemitism owes much more to Pauline Christians than it does to any supposed Jewish culpability in the (fabricated) “death” of Jesus, which, according to Islam, never happened anyway. This is why Zionists need Christian antisemitism to justify the supposed safety of Jews in Israel, since Pauline Christianity cannot tolerate the Torah and wants to separate Jews and Gentiles, or even assimilate Jews via conversion to Pauline Christianity or Gentile secularism. The evangelists, both here and elsewhere, are aggressively promoting the Anglo-Zionist agenda of converting, assimilating, and/or exterminating the Jews, while fomenting clashes between Jews and Muslims.

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On 7/8/2020 at 1:40 AM, Leslie P said:

Could you provide references for this, because I'm not clear what you're referring to here?

Btw I originally had a really lengthy reply but shiachat decided to play games and not restore my draft that I was finishing off so I had to summarise some parts of it that I originally elaborated on.

"For the Scriptures have had joined to them many falsehoods against God on this account. The prophet Moses having by the order of God delivered the law, with the explanations, to certain chosen men, some seventy in number, in order that they also might instruct such of the people as chose, after a little the written law had added to it certain falsehoods contrary to the law of God, who made the heaven and the earth, and all things in them; the wicked one having dared to work this for some righteous purpose. And this took place in reason and judgment, that those might be convicted who should dare to listen to the things written against God, and those who, through love towards Him, should not only disbelieve the things spoken against Him, but should not even endure to hear them at all, even if they should happen to be true, judging it much safer to incur danger with respect to religious faith, than to live with an evil conscience on account of blasphemous words.

Simon(Saul), therefore, as I learn, intends to come into public, and to speak of those chapters against God that are added to the Scriptures, for the sake of temptation, that he may seduce as many wretched ones as he can from the love of God. For we do not wish to say in public that these chapters are added to the Bible, since we should thereby perplex the unlearned multitudes, and so accomplish the purpose of this wicked Simon(Saul). For they not having yet the power of discerning, would flee from us as impious; or, as if not only the blasphemous chapters were false, they would even withdraw from the word. Wherefore we are under a necessity of assenting to the false chapters, and putting questions in return to him concerning them, to draw him into a strait, and to give in private an explanation of the chapters that are spoken against God to the well-disposed after a trial of their faith; and of this there is but one way, and that a brief one. It is this. 

Everything that is spoken or written against God is false. But that we say this truly, not only for the sake of reputation, but for the sake of truth, I shall convince you when my discourse has proceeded a little further. Whence you, my most beloved Clement, ought not to be sorry at Simon's(Saul’s) having interposed a day between this and the discussion. For today, before the discussion, you shall be instructed concerning the chapters added to the Scriptures; and then in the discussion concerning the only one and good God, the Maker also of the world, you ought not to be distracted. But in the discussion you will even wonder how impious men, overlooking the multitudes of things that are spoken in the Scriptures for God, and looking at those that are spoken against Him, gladly bring these forward; and thus the hearers, by reason of ignorance, believing the things against God, become outcasts from His kingdom. Wherefore you, by advantage of the postponement, learning the mystery of the Scriptures, and gaining the means of not sinning against God, will incomparably rejoice.

Then I Clement, hearing this, said: "Truly I rejoice, and I give thanks to God, who in all things doeth well. However, he knows that I shall be able to think nothing other than that all things are for God. Wherefore do not suppose that I ask questions, as doubting the words concerning God, or those that are to be spoken, but rather that I may learn, and so be able myself to instruct another who is ingenuously willing to learn. Wherefore tell me what are the falsehoods added to the Scriptures, and how it comes that they are really false." Then Peter answered: "Even although you had not asked me, I should have gone on in order, and afforded you the exposition of these matters, as I promised. Learn, then, how the Scriptures misrepresent Him in many respects, that you may know when you happen upon them.

But what I am going to tell you will be sufficient by way of example. But I do not think, my dear Clement, that any one who possesses ever so little love to God and ingenuousness, will be able to take in, or even to hear, the things that are spoken against Him. For how is it that he can have a monarchic soul, and be holy, who supposes that there are many gods, and not one only? But even if there be but one, who will cherish zeal to be holy, that finds in Him many defects, since he will hope that the Beginning of all things, by reason of the defects of his own nature, will not visit the crimes of others?

far be it from us to believe that the Lord of all, who made the heaven and the earth, and all things that are in them, shares His government with others, or that He lies. For if He lies, then who speaks truth? Or that He makes experiments as in ignorance; for then who foreknows? And if He deliberates, and changes His purpose, who is perfect in understanding and permanent in design? If He envies, who is above rivalry? If He hardens hearts, who makes wise? If He makes blind and deaf, who has given sight and hearing? If He commits pilfering, who administers justice? If He is weak, who is omnipotent? If He is unjust, who is just? If He makes evil things, who shall make good things? If He does evil, who shall do good?

But if He desires more, who then has all things? If He is false, who then is true? If He dwells in a tabernacle, who is without bounds? If He is fond of fat, and sacrifices, and offerings, and drink-offerings, who then is without need, and who is holy, and pure, and perfect? If He is pleased with candles and candlesticks, who then placed the luminaries in heaven? If He dwells in shadow, and darkness, and storm, and smoke, who is the light(guide) that lightens the universe? If He comes with trumpets, and shoutings, and darts, and arrows, who is the looked-for tranquillity of all? If He loves war, who then wishes peace? If He makes evil things, who makes good things? If He is without affection, who is a lover of mankind? If He is not faithful to His promises, who shall be trusted? If He loves the wicked, and adulterers, and murderers, who shall be a just judge? If He changes His mind, who is stedfast? If He chooses evil men, who then takes the part of the good?

Clement, my son, beware of thinking otherwise of God, than that He is the only God, and Lord, and Father, good and righteous, the Creator, long-suffering, merciful, the sustainer, the benefactor, ordaining love of mankind, counselling purity, immortal and making immortal, incomparable, in the souls of the good, that cannot be contained; who has fixed the great world as a centre in space, who has spread out the heavens and solidified the earth, who has stored up the water, who has disposed the stars in the sky, who has made the fountains flow in the earth, has produced faults, has raised up mountains, hath set bounds to the sea, has ordered winds and blasts, who by the spirit of counsel has kept safely the body comprehended in a boundless sea —(Homollies II, CH.XXXVIII-XLV)

This is the criteria that is hinted out and displayed to us so that we may understand the truths hence why in John 1:17 it says 

“17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

Jesus came to reveal the Truth which was the knowledge for salvation that is contained in the Tanakh. And distinguish truth from falsehood that is contained and taught it to his disciples and confirmed the law and the prophets and not abolished them as Paul says.

On 7/8/2020 at 1:40 AM, Leslie P said:

And yet Paul writes (Phil 2:10) that “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth“ clearly referencing Isaiah 45: “for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone are deliverance and strength.’” Clearly Paul thinks Jesus is God.

I think you're getting a bit confused about how Paul uses the phrase “God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” to refer to the role of Jesus. The meaning is 'God, who is the the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ'.

It's the same God..Lord...structure as the 1 Corinthians 8 passage- “there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him”. Notice how Jesus has taken on the role of Kyrios- Lord, who in the original Shema is definitively God.

So to stress the point, Paul has taken the ultimate prayer of monotheism, the One God prayer, and inserted Jesus into it in such a way that makes it clear that Jesus is God.

You are taking Isaiah 45 which talks about God Almighty out of context. Paul was a dualist who believed Jesus was divine (i.e a god) but is subordinate to the Father who is God Almighty. 

On 7/8/2020 at 1:40 AM, Leslie P said:

I think you're getting a bit confused about how Paul uses the phrase “God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” to refer to the role of Jesus. The meaning is 'God, who is the the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

I think you Should take an English class. Seriously this is ridiculous. 

Ephesians 1:3

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

the God of who? Jesus! Basic grammar, It is clear that Jesus has a God. 

As for 1 Corinthians 8:6, lets have a look at it again. 

Verse 5, “5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”)” as you can see Paul is distinguishing gods from lords now since Paul has already mentioned “gods” then the meaning of “lords” means masters now as we read further in the context in verse 6 Paul says, “, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

Paul crystal clearly says, “yet for us there is but one God, the Father,...”

Paul’s calls God “the Father”. Not the son nor Holy Spirit nor the trinity. 

Paul betrays Jesus as an instrument used by God to create things. And through whom they live for God the Father. 

“...and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”

as we can clearly see Paul sees Jesus as not God Almighty, rather subordinate to God almighty. Also the context is pretty clear that the term “lord” here means “Master”.

now the fact that Paul believes Jesus is a God that is subordinate to God the Father contradicts Shema, the context of the Shema Affirms the Unitarian theology. 

On 7/8/2020 at 1:40 AM, Leslie P said:

Who is God the Son, distinct from God the Father.

 

 

Do you realise why you are saying ? You said  God the Son and distinguishing him from God the Father, that’s dualism. 

 

On 7/8/2020 at 1:40 AM, Leslie P said:

Again, I'm a bit unclear. Which sect would that be?

 

 

In john 14:6 This was the final moments of Jesus being with his disciples so he made it clear to them which sect he belong to and gave them a sermon aswell because he was leaving them and Jesus wanted to make it clear to them that he belongs to the-Way sect which jesus created after he came to reform Israel. 

John:14:6

6Jesus answered, “I am, the Way; and [the] truth and the [way to] [eternal] life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

Jesus first addresses himself to be one of those who belong to the sect called “the Way” then says his the truth and the way to enteral life(paradise) and it is except through Christ whom the truth is with and enteral life(salvation), can come to the LORD well pleasing and pleased. If Paul was really from the, the Way, sect then he would believe there is only one God and  no other, not another god beside God aswell that takes on a form of a human.

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On 7/14/2020 at 11:06 PM, THREE1THREE said:

Here’s how we’re gonna approach this 

Thank you for your thoughts on this. A very different direction!

There is a very solid reason the Clementine Homilies/Recognitions don't get used really at all in the academic world to research first century Christianity.

The Clementine Homilies have, as you say, been through a lot of revising and rewriting. There are plenty of theories about the original document, but no-one knows what it said, or when it was written. It is simply not the case that scholarship agrees it goes back to the time of Peter.

It is, in any case a 'romance'- a fiction. The final writing was 3rd/4th century.

As Strecker comments: “The Recognitions however had the misfortune to be interpolated by heretics so as to authenticate their irregular teaching.”

and the Homilies: “It certainly was not widely disseminated, and underwent a first revision at the hands of an Arian theologian, the Homilist.”

and “the Clementines have not come to us as they were originally composed.”

and Eusebius comments: “And now some have only the other day brought forward other wordy and lengthy compositions as being Clement's, containing dialogues of Peter and Appion, of which there is absolutely no mention in the ancients”

The pieces you quote cannot therefore be used as historical evidence of anything more than the views of a much later non-Christian sect.

Again your “interpretation” has no relation to the parable whatsoever.... no correspondence at all....It’s a parable about the one who keeps law and the one who doesn’t.

The Jerusalem Temple was the House of God on a large rock, and the absolute centre for First Century Judaism. It was seen as the intersection of Heaven and Earth (as was believed) and the dwelling place of God. When Jesus talks about a house on a rock in a religious context, that's inevitably what He was referring to, and what His audience would very much have in mind.

Jesus was simply doing the same thing He did with the action against the Temple market traders, the parable of the wicked tenants, and the discourse about the destruction of the Temple and many, many other references. He was declaring that God had judged the religious leaders and the Temple system, found it totally wanting, and prophesying that destruction was on its way.

Importantly, the parable doesn't mention Torah, but does mention obedience to Jesus. Which is the point- Jesus is saying that Torah and Temple are going, and a new way of doing God is coming. Again, this is exactly what the disciples who knew Jesus best did- it's all in Acts.

“John 1:17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.”

John is contrasting the two. The earlier Torah vs the new following Jesus.

You are taking Isaiah 45 which talks about God Almighty out of context.

How?

I think you Should take an English class....<snip>...now the fact that Paul believes Jesus is a God that is subordinate to God the Father contradicts Shema, the context of the Shema Affirms the Unitarian theology

Hardly. When Jesus prayed to God, He prayed to God the Father. Thus Paul is praising the same Father that Jesus prayed to. The God and Father of Jesus.

Do you realise why you are saying ? You said  God the Son and distinguishing him from God the Father, that’s dualism.

No, classic by-the-numbers Trinitarianism.

Also the context is pretty clear that the term “lord” here means “Master”.

No, it doesn't. In the Shema of Judaism, the term Lord refers to God. It's the Tetragrammaton, and refers with no ambiguity to God. Paul is lining Jesus up alongside God in the holiest prayer of Jewish monotheism.

Jesus wanted to make it clear to them that he belongs to the-Way sect which jesus created after he came to reform Israel.

'The Way' is universally recognised as one of the names for the mainstream orthodox Christian church. It's mentioned throughout Acts.

 

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1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

The pieces you quote cannot therefore be used as historical evidence of anything more than the views of a much later non-Christian sect.

It’s can be. 1.Unitarian theology has been established from the OT and the NT as I have shown which you deny. 2. Logically the bread winner is gonna win history so the bread winner can call anyone a heretic but really he is the heretic. 3. Eusebius is known for lying therefore he is unreliable. 4. I showed you an example of peter displaying criteria. Which is a rational criteria and I can show all the rational debates between Paul and peter.

5. The same can be said about the gospel(s). 

“I saw that God had especially guarded the Bible; yet when copies of it were few, learned MEN HAD IN SOME INSTANCES CHANGED THE  WORDS, thinking that they were making it more plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, BY CAUSING IT TO LEAN TO THIER ESTABLISHED VIEWS, WHICH WERE GOVEREND BY TRADITION.” — (E.G. White, EW, 220.2, 1882)

The following excerpts come from a slightly unaltered version of gospel according to Matthew that were probably copied from the original manuscript written by Matthew; which is now lost and cannot be found. Thus Eusebius informs us of the actual words Jesus spoke to his disciples in Matthew 28:19.

“With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” — (Proof of the Gospel by Eusebius, Book III, ch 6, 132 (a), p. 152)

Who said to them; “Make disciples of all the nations in my Name.” — (Eusebius, Proof of the Gospel, Book III, Chapter 7, 138 (c), p. 159)

In Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read, “relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name.”

And in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read, “Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke the word to his followers, and fulfilled it by the event, saying to them, “Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name.”

I don’t need to for further this is sufficient. 

I have a basis and a criteria and building upon that basis and criteria to distinguish truth from falsehood. You have absolutely Zero. 

1 hour ago, Leslie P said:

The Jerusalem Temple was the House of God on a large rock, and the absolute centre for First Century Judaism. It was seen as the intersection of Heaven and Earth (as was believed) and the dwelling place of God. When Jesus talks about a house on a rock in a religious context

How Deluded are you?Are you that arrogant and stubborn that you make up lies upon lies which are mere wishful thinking and fantasies. The rock is Jesus teachings which are the Torah’s teaching.

Now to surpass the Pharisees, is simple; don’t do them to show off and impress other people. The only being you should show off to and impress is God.

 

Matthew 5:

Murder

21“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, a and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.

23“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

 

Mathew 5:

Oaths

33“Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. 

Mathew 5:

Love for Enemies

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor like yourself.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be godly servants of your LORD. He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your LORD is perfect.

Jesus means be perfect regarding mercy and compassion just like God. Have the manners of God. Now that does not mean you don’t resist a harsh enemy there is a big difference.

Mathew 6:

1“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer and supplication 

5“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they haven’t  received their reward. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your LORD, who is unseen. Then your LORD, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you supplicate, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your LORD knows what you need before you ask Him.

9“This, then, is how you should pray:

“ ‘Our LORD,

hallowed be your name,

10your kingdom come,

your will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven.

11Give us today our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, 

but deliver us from the evil one.’

14For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your LORD will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their sins, your LORD will not forgive your sins.

Fasting

16“When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they haven’t received their reward. 17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your LORD, who is unseen; and your LORD, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”

 

Treasures in Heaven

19“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

Doing good deeds will store for you all the heavenly cash to spend on yourself in heaven. And don’t be too attached with worldly gains.

 

22“The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.”

Don’t be too attached with the worldly gains, don’t let the world drown you rather  keep your boat floating above it.

 

Do Not Worry

25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your LORD feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life ?

28And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your LORD knows that you need them. 33But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.”

Mathew 7:

Judging Others

1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

6“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.

Ask, Seek, Knock

7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

9“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your LORD give good gifts to those who ask Him!12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets

 Mathew 5:20 

20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.   

Don’t know how clear you can get. 

On 7/15/2020 at 8:06 AM, THREE1THREE said:

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” -Matthew 7:24-27

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.”

this parable shows that the person who lives his/her life by practicing jesus teaching will be able to stand tall and face all trails and calamties because jesus teachings granted that person the wisdom and power to face such things and won’t go astray, fall into depression and eventually go to hell. The rock (I.efoundation) is jesus teachings and the rain and the stream and the wind are trails and calamties and the house represents the persons life that he/she built by living by jesus’ teachings. 

 

“26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

The person who does not live by Jesus’ teachings when he/she faces calamties and trails he/she will not be able encounter them because he/she did not practice them if they had practiced them then they would have had the wisdom and power to encounter them and won’t be miserable and fall into depression and go astray. 

 

2 hours ago, Leslie P said:

No, it doesn't. In the Shema of Judaism, the term Lord refers to God. It's the Tetragrammaton, and refers with no ambiguity to God. Paul is lining Jesus up alongside God in the holiest prayer of Jewish monotheism.

Clearly you need to take a class for grammar, you just exposed yourself by DELIBERATELY taking a word out of context. Paul in verse 5 Paul talks about gods and lords. now since Paul has already mentioned gods I.e deities (plural) “lords” would mean masters not deities. 

In verse 6 he makes it crystal clear that there is one God, the Father. That’s it. So “lord” would mean “master”

1samuel 25:28

28Forgive now your handmaid's transgression, for the Lord shall make for my lord a sure house, for my lord fights the wars of the Lord. And let no evil be found in you all your days.

over here  “lord” is used as “master” 

And about shema, you shot yourslef in the foot.

”Shema Yisroel Adonai eloheinu Adonai echad” 

If the Shema intentded to show plurality , it would say, “Hear O’Isreal the Lord our God, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit  is one” then we would understand that “Echad” is intended as a complex unity. But that is not the case since it does not mention any other god except God Almighty. it says“Adonai(God’s name) eloheinu(our God) Adonai(God’s name) echad(is one)” it is making it clear that Yahweh is one. theirs no other gods called “Adonai” except the one true God. Theirs no Yahweh’s, Adonai’s, el elyon’s, whatever you call Him. In short it’s making it that clear that God is one. Not three or two or three in one like a shampoo bottle. Their is only one God. 

Yet you deny it arrogantly. 

“The Lord He is God; there is none other besides Him” -Deuteronomy 4:35

“The Lord He is God; in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other” -Deuteronomy 4:39 

“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides me” -Deuteronomy 32:39

1 Chronicles 17:20 “O Lord, there is none like You, and there is no god beside You according to all that we have heard with our ears.”

“You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth” -2Kings 19:15

“You are great, O Lord God; for there is non like You, Nor there is any god beside You” -2 Samuel 7:22

“ I am the Lord, and there is no other; Beside Me there is no god” Isaiah 45:5 

“Surely God is with you and there is none else, No other god.” Isaiah 45:14

“Is it not I, The Lord? And there is No other god besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior,There is none except Me” Isaiah 45:21

“I am God, and there’s no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9

 

P.s the only reason why they put “Lord” is because the Jews believe it is only lawful to mention God’s name in prayer. 

2 hours ago, Leslie P said:

John is contrasting the two. The earlier Torah vs the new following Jesus.

Mathew 5:17

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Torah) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

there are falsehoods in the Tanakh thus jesus was came to distinguish truth from falsehood. But the law has been persevered Deuteronomy 13:1 Tanakh.

2 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Hardly. When Jesus prayed to God, He prayed to God the Father. Thus Paul is praising the same Father that Jesus prayed to. The God and Father of Jesus.

Thank you very much, you just proved that Jesus is subordinate to God Almighty and prayed to God whom you call the Father and has a God.

God is Sovereign.

when are you gonna stop being arrogant and start using your rationality and logic.

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie, not a Son of Man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

2 chronicles 2:5 Tanakh 

5And who can gather up strength to build Him a House, for the heavens and the heavens of the heavens cannot contain Him, and who am I that I should build Him a House, only to burn incense before Him.

2 chronicles 6:18

18But will God indeed dwell with man on the earth? Behold the heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You; much less this House that I have built.

Exodus 20:3-4

You shall have no other gods upon My Face. 

You shall not make for yourselves a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.

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On 7/19/2020 at 7:35 PM, THREE1THREE said:

It’s can be.

Thanks for your thoughts.

With regard to the Homilies/Recognitions, I did a bit of looking at a range of academic books to see what mention they get. The general resource books don't mention them at all. Some more specialist books give them a brief mention, in the context of the development of 2/3/4th century heretical groups. None of these books- all standard resources for Biblical history- use them at all in the context of Paul or indeed anything else in the first century. They have simply been rewritten too much for any weight at all to be placed on them, hence they are totally ignored as Early Church resources. This is what the total weight of academic scholarship, much of it hostile to Christianity, has said for centuries.

3. Eusebius is known for lying therefore he is unreliable.

If you think Eusebius is a liar, why are you quoting him as authoritative? I can't see at all what you're trying to say in this section.

How Deluded are you?Are you that arrogant and stubborn that you make up lies upon lies which are mere wishful thinking and fantasies. The rock is Jesus teachings which are the Torah’s teaching.

What is the evidence for this claim?

The Jerusalem Temple was the absolute centre of First Century Judaism, as a very brief study will confirm. The Hebrew name given in the Hebrew Bible for the building complex is either Beit YHWH "House of YHWH", Beit HaElohim "House of God", or simply Beiti "my house", Beitekhah "your house". It was built on a rock (the Islamic Dome on the Rock was built on the site). I'd say that's pretty convincing evidence that someone talking in a religious context about a house on a rock is talking about the Jerusalem Temple.

Matthew 5...6

I'm not at all clear about how these quotes support your case. They seem to be Jesus outlining principles for behaviour in the new Kingdom of God.

So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets

Jesus simply says the Golden Rule is a summary of the Law, which was valid until it was fulfilled with His death and resurrection.

Remember it was the disciples who decided to make following Torah optional. We have the minutes of the meeting in Acts 15. If Jesus had said the Torah was to continue, they would have come to a very quick different decision.

And about shema, you shot yourslef in the foot.

What we were discussing here is whether or not Paul thought Jesus was God. The original Shema talks of God and Lord, both of which are the One God in the Shema. Paul has rewritten the Shema to identify Jesus with YHWH/'Lord', unambiguously God, which means he thinks Jesus is part of the One God. And yes, Paul believes there is only One God.

That Paul though Jesus was God is crystal clear from the way he says “at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth“ referencing Isaiah 45: “for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear.”

 

Forgive now your handmaid's transgression, for the Lord shall make for my lord a sure house, for my lord fights the wars of the Lord.

over here  “lord” is used as “master”

There is a very clear distinction in the Hebrew between when YHWH is referred to, and when the word for master is being used. Less clear in English.

Thank you very much, you just proved that Jesus is subordinate to God Almighty and prayed to God whom you call the Father and has a God.

Yes, Jesus (God the Son) praying to God the Father. That's communication, not subordination.

So continuing the series of quotes on page 3 (Acts 24), I'm not sure what you mean when you say Paul was lying about his faith.

He was saying what he believed. As a Pharisee he had desperately, fanatically, sought to see the Kingdom of God brought to this earth. In his encounter with the risen Jesus, he learned that the Kingdom of God had arrived, but in a completely unexpected way. His world was turned upside down.

Paul dedicated the rest of a short and painful life to this truth.

 

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