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In the Name of God بسم الله
Nathan

Was Jesus a Liar or a Madman?

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@Leslie P

jesus crystal clear denying being God

 

John 10:27-39

“27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life(salvation), and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I HAVE SHOWN YOU MANY GOOD WORKS FROM THE FATHER(Allaha). For which of these do you stone me?”

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ? 35IF HE(Allaha) CALLED THEM ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ TO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME—AND SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE SET ASIDE— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 

38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.”

 

In john 10:32 we see that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus had meant by “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:29). And in john 10:33 they accused him of blasphemy. Now, had Jesus been God, or had he and God been one in a literal sense then he wouldn’t have hesitated to clarify the matter at that point. Jesus at that point said, “Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?” What he was trying to say was that if the Jews called “I and my Father are one” blasphemy then they should call what was written in their law “You are gods” blasphemy too.

The reasoning behind this is “You are elohim” does not mean that you, the Jewish Messengers, are Gods, it is rather an expression. It just means that you are godly people. The same applies to “I and my Father are one.” It does not mean that Jesus is God or that he and God are the same literally. It’s just an expression meaning they are one in purpose.

 

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ? 35IF HE(Allaha) CALLED THEM ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ TO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME—AND SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE SET ASIDE— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 

In verse 34 jesus crystal clearly points out that Pslams 82:6 is about God’s Messengers (Messengers receive divine scripturelike David,Moses,job,Ezekiel,Enoch,Noah. Prophets of God don’t receive any divine scripture rather they confirm the truth contained within the scripture), then in verse 36,right after, jesus says,”WHAT ABOUT THE ONE WHOM THE FATHER(Allaha) SET APART AS HIS VERY OWN [REPRESENTATIVE] AND SENT IN TO THE WORLD?” Then jesus takes advantage of Psalms 82:6 that he used to refute their false accusation and says, “Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.“ as Pslams 82:6 calls the Messengers of God “sons of the Most Hight(El Elyon)”. In verse 37 jesus makes it clear that he does these good work with not his own authority rather with God’s authority and Jesus tells them to not believe in him if he does these without God’s authority, Jesus was simply carrying out God’s commands and purpose. Which he make clear in the next verse, “38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.”

it is clear as daylight jesus was just a messiah, prophet, Messenger of God. 

 

Prophet Ezekiel also raised the dead Alive he must be God?? 

Ezekiel 37

4And He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord.'

5So says the Lord God to these bones; Behold, I will cause spirit to enter into you, and you shall live!

6And I will lay sinews upon you, and I will make flesh grow over you and cover you with skin and put breath into you, and you will live, and you will then know that I am the Lord."

7So I prophesied as I was commanded, and there arose a noise when I prophesied, and behold a commotion, and the bones came together, bone to its bone!

8And I looked, and lo! sinews were upon them, and flesh came upon them, and skin covered them from above, but there was still no spirit in them.

9Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the spirit, prophesy, O Son of Man, and say to the spirit, 'So says the Lord God: From four sides come, O spirit, and breathe into these slain ones that they may live.' "

10And I prophesied as He had commanded me, and the spirit came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, a very great army, exceedingly so.

11Then He said to me, "Son of Man, these bones are all the house of Israel. Behold they say, 'Our bones have become dried up, our hope is lost, we are clean cut off to ourselves.'

12Therefore, prophesy and say to them, So says the Lord God: Lo! I open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves as My people, and bring you home to the land of Israel.

Jesus was no different to prophet Ezekiel 

John 11:

3So the sisters sent word to Jesus, “Master, the one you love is sick.”

4When he heard this, Jesus said, “This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God’s glory so that God’s messenger may be glorified through it.” 5Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6So when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days, 7and then he said to his disciples, “Let us go back to Judea.”

8“But RABBI,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone you, and yet you are going back?”

9Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. 10It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.”

11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”

12His disciples replied, “Master, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him.”

16Then Thomas said to the rest of the disciples, “Let us also go, that we may die with him.”

Jesus Comforts the Sisters of Lazarus

17On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18Now Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, 19and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.

21“Master,” Martha said to Jesus, “if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22BUT I KNOW THAT EVEN NOW GOD WILL GIVE YOU(jesus) WHATEVER YOU ASK.”

23Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

24Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

25Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the [eternal] life. The one who believes in me will live....26and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

27“Yes, Master,” she replied, “I believe that you are the Messiah, the messager of God, who is to come into the world.”

28After she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. “The Teacher is here,” she said, “and is asking for you.” 29When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. 30Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.

32When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, “Master, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.”

33When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34“Where have you laid him?” he asked.

“Come and see, Master,” they replied.

35Jesus wept.

36Then the Jews said, “See how he loved him!”

37But some of them said, “Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?”

Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead

38Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39“Take away the stone,” he said.

“But, Master,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”

40Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”

41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “FATHER(Allaha), I THANK YOU(Allaha) THAT YOU(Allaha) HAVE HEARD ME. 42I KNEW THAT YOU(Allaha) ALWAYS HEAR ME, BUT I SAID THIS FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PEOPLE STANDING HERE, THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE THAT YOU(Allaha) SENT ME.”

43When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!”44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”

 

Did jesus do miracles by permission of God ? 

John 11:22

“22BUT I KNOW THAT EVEN NOW GOD WILL GIVE YOU(jesus) WHATEVER YOU ASK.”

yes most definitely. 

why did such miracle take place ?

John 11:4

“...it is for God’s glory so that God’s messenger may be glorified through it.”

John 11:41-42

41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “FATHER(Allaha), I THANK YOU(Allaha) THAT YOU(Allaha) HAVE HEARD ME(jesus). 42I KNEW THAT YOU(Allaha) ALWAYS HEAR ME(jesus), BUT I SAID THIS FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PEOPLE STANDING HERE, THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE THAT YOU(Allaha) SENT ME(jesus).”

so that the people know that Jesus is God’s Messenger and revere Jesus

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On 6/10/2020 at 5:07 PM, Northwest said:

As far as Trinitarianism and Christian “orthodoxy” are concerned: a religion whose defence necessitates sin is bankrupt.

Hey Northwest, could you please expound on this statement? I'd like to understand where you're coming from.

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On 6/10/2020 at 8:30 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi this paragraph contradicts with rest of your  paragraphs because whole of these paragraphs say that he came as representative other one that is in agreement with muslim belief but at conclusion  paragraph you suddenly changed your mind & declared Christian slogan for calling him a God anyway we agree with you until he talked bout betraying to him.

Hey Ash,

My hope is to explain that Jesus is God the Son and also that He is a messenger and representative sent from God the Father. Please take this example (which is not a perfect summary of how the Trinity works): The Father is the mind, the Son is the voice, and the Holy Spirit is the heart and soul. God is one in essence and each member of the Trinity is completely and perfectly united. We do not believe that God is 3. He is one in 3 persons. 

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1 minute ago, THREE1THREE said:

That’s dualism and ur not being consistent. 

Hey THREE1THREE,

I'm sorry if I'm being confusing. It is just so very hard to explain the Trinity. And I definitely understand why it is so hard for Muslims to grasp the concept. Please don't disregard the doctrine because I'm simply unable to give words to explain it. 

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3 minutes ago, Nathan said:

It is just so very hard to explain the Trinity.

No it’s not hard, it’s just a illogical and irrational doctrine and has no biblical basis. it is a pagan doctrine that was introduced by Tertullian who is a Hellenistic. The trinity is not different to Hindu doctrine and other ancient pagan religions that had their trinity. 

Jesus himself denies being God read my latest reply to leslie.

Paul the imposter wasn’t even a trinitarian Himself he was a dualist.

1 Corinthians 8:6

“6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”

Paul calls God “the Father” the same way prophet Daniel, Prophet Ezra, Prophet Jeremiah and Nehemiah call God “Allah”.

Paul didn’t say “...there is but one God, the Father the Son the Holy Spirit”  rather he says “there is but one God, the Father” not the Son nor The Holy Spirit, Paul makes it clear “the Father” is God thats it. None of this trinity concept of God.

 

Ephesians 1:3

“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

Romans 15:6

“6so that with one mind and one voice you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

 

Colossians 1:3

“3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” 

 

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus. 

 

Philippians 2:5-7

5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

 

Now in verse 5 Paul is telling the people to have the same mindset as Jesus amongst each other then he continues on in verse by saying 6 “who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” and he go’s in verse 7 by pretty much saying jesus took on a form of a human. 

In verse 6 Paul says “Who being very nature God” over here Paul believes Jesus to be God but then as we continue on in verse 6 Paul says “did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage”  Now over here Paul is distinguishing Jesus from God but he also believes jesus was also a God beside God but Jesus who is the second God manifested himself in a human form ,as verse 7 shows, so that he is no longer equal to God rather he is limited. 

Now this is obviously a heresy and dualism since Jesus is a God beside God Almighty, despite jesus manifesting himself in a human form because in nature he is a God beside God Almighty except he is a limited God beside God Almighty.

 

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@Nathan

now I’ve made that clear “the Father” is God alone, not a triune God, the Trinity is irrational and illogical and does point to three Gods. The trinity is, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit share the same ESSENCE but are DISTINCT but they are One. 

Now the fact they share the same Essence and are Distinct shows that there are three Gods.  Then you guys start contradicting yourselves shifting from Modalism to God made up of three part to  the three make up a team called “God” to having 4 Gods. 

Go to the thread which Dave created on “why do Muslims discredit the bible” go to the second page and read my comment. 

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Thanks for your well thought out response Ash!

I would ask how God could be called Father if He did not eternally have a Son? Yes, many of God's people and prophets referred to God as Father but this would mean that God would be dependent on creating a people to call Him Father if He did not have a Son before the creation of the world. 

And in Islam, Allah is said to have ninety-nine names, one of them being "The Loving." "But how could Allah be loving in eternity? Before he created there was nothing else in existence that he could love (and the title does not refer to self-centered love but love for others). The only option is that Allah eternally loves his creation. But that in itself raises an enormous problem: if Allah needs his creation to be who he is in himself ("loving"), then Allah is dependent on his own creation, and one of the cardinal beliefs of Islam is that Allah is dependent on nothing." (Delighting in the Trinity pg. 40 Michael Reeves)

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5 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Go to the thread which Dave created on “why do Muslims discredit the bible” go to the second page and read my comment. 

Thanks THREE1THREE!

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2 minutes ago, Nathan said:

And in Islam, Allah is said to have ninety-nine names, one of them being "The Loving." "But how could Allah be loving in eternity? Before he created there was nothing else in existence that he could love (and the title does not refer to self-centered love but love for others). The only option is that Allah eternally loves his creation. But that in itself raises an enormous problem: if Allah needs his creation to be who he is in himself ("loving"), then Allah is dependent on his own creation, and one of the cardinal beliefs of Islam is that Allah is dependent on nothing." (Delighting in the Trinity pg. 40 Michael Reeves)

These 99 names are attributes given to God due to His actions that are manifested. God is Omniscient and perfect so God has always had the best qualities. 

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10 minutes ago, Nathan said:

I would ask how God could be called Father if He did not eternally have a Son?

That’s dualism, use ur brian pay attention to what you’re saying. 

The term “the Father” has been added by Paul the imposter in the gospel(s). 

Paul’s epistles predate all 4 Gospels so it is obvious that all four would be influenced by Pauline elements which are Hellenistic.  Read what @Ashvazdanghe tagged. 

Btw Mr Michael reeves embarrassed himself big time on the 99 names and how  were they attributed to God and he certainly didnt read the sermons of imam Ali that literally destroy his baseless argument. 

 

17 minutes ago, Nathan said:

and prophets referred to God as Father but this would mean that God would be dependent on creating a people to call Him Father if He did not have a Son before the creation of the world

The term “the Father” is an expression used in the OT meaning “the Nourisher” “the sustainer” “the One who disciplines” 

this attribute is given to God due to His actions being manifested.  Here is a example. 

 Deuteronomy 8:5 “5You shall know in your heart, that just as a man chastises his son, so does the Lord, your God, chastise you.”

God was not imperfect and then became perfect once the heavens and the earth exisited that’s blasphemy and nullifies God being Omniscient, God always has had the best qualities Before anything was created. 

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Nathan:

If we steer the question toward more pragmatic avenues, I would ask you what Christianity has brought your people, culture, and nation? There was a time in which it was a metaphysical ideal, and a cohesive force, but under the surface there were terrible contradictions and confusions (the Trinity, divinity of Jesus, confusing scripture), and this opened the door for innovation, heresy, persecution, and finally dissolution.

The early church philosophers tried to save the faith through Neo-Platonism, Aristotle, etc., but their materials came from Ibn Sina and Averroes, Muslim philosophers and theologians who had already reconciled their faith with the wisdom of the ancients. The early church father Tertullian denounced reason and screamed "credo quia ineptum" (I believe, because it is absurd).

In Islam there is a unity of God, and in Christianity, it is hopeless contradiction. The others here have made this point in detail.

But where has the faith led you? In my case I see Christian churches that look like social clubs, with incoherent sermons, politically-motivated priests and pastors, and "feel good messages". Or we have empty ritual and aging votaries (in the case of Catholicism). And we have the neurosis of widespread pity, radical egalitarianism, and effeminate approaches.

Modern Christianity undermines the family, turns men into passive, weak creatures, incapable of asserting themselves. 

You see, most westerners never encounter Islam. They have never been to a Masjid, either Shia or Sunni. And if they did go to one, they would likely see a cohesive community of believers, not this charade that happens every Sunday in the Christian church.

In no mosque that I have ever been to did I see big screen televisions, electric guitars, pretty singing girls, or gaudy decorations. I simply saw men praying to God in a room that had only essential decoration. I saw people serious about their faith. I saw a kind of fullness in the emptiness. 

You would not be here unless you knew something was wrong with your world ("either there is something wrong with the world, or there is something wrong with me"). I admire your efforts towards finding the truth. Don't be afraid of it. 

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On 6/10/2020 at 7:30 AM, Northwest said:

Your conclusion rests on assumption and naïveté. You assume that the Gospels and Epistles can be read holistically, that they “complement” one another, that a unified doctrine is present—all to serve one’s “confirmation bias” discarded over millennia.

 

Hi there. Thanks for the reply.

You seem to be assuming I'm a standard evangelical, which, to be clear, I'm not. I am a massive supporter of the Third Quest, meaning that I'm fully aware of the need to do historical work in its Jewish context etc etc. I also have no assumptions about holistic NT beyond a common source of historical events.

Your “knowledge” is anachronistic. You are implying that “the early Church” already had a fixed ecclesiastical-political, institutional, centralised, Romanised hierarchy in place at the time of Jesus...<snip>...deviant people (pagans).

Actually I agree that the Early Church had no structure at the time of Jesus. What you say I imply about the EC would take us a very long way from normally agreed history. The reasons behind the dropping of the Torah are recorded and explained in Paul's letters after Jesus' resurrection.

Well, the “apostle” Paul was not a Semite, much less a Jew.

Paul wasn't a Jew? Really? Again, that's a very, very, very long way away from the long settled consensus of serious scholarship of all types of belief.

You are being ambiguous here, whether deliberately or otherwise...<snip>...of the Islamic civilisation and Muslim ummah.

I can't see that I am being unclear. The connotations of the phrase 'Ho Theos' have been debated to death, with one of those two conclusions 'must be God' or 'could be God' being drawn.

Again, one would need in-depth knowledge of the linguistics and historical circumstance to make an informed judgment rather than preconception.

Not in this case. It's rather clear what John was getting at. The Judaic and Greek background and linguistic material is pretty well known. It's a rerun of Genesis in which Jesus occupies the place of God's creative force in Creation, and comes down to earth as a human.

I hope this is all helpful.
 

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On 6/10/2020 at 8:59 AM, THREE1THREE said:

He says only God is good Alone after questioning the questioners minor praise , this incident shows Jesus was not God, and you know it very well. You’re trying very hard to conceal and misinterpret. 

You've given an awful lot of material here. Thanks for putting in the time for this. If it's OK with you, I'll deal with this a section at a time, so each part can get my full attention.

I've put a number of counterarguments to your conclusion. Specifically (1) The immediate context is that of who gets to be part of the Kingdom of God. The question of Jesus' divinity has not been raised in any way or form. (2) No-one replies to a minor compliment like “You're a good teacher” by saying they're not God. It doesn't follow in any way! (3) Matthew paraphrases Jesus' comment to explain what He meant, which is 'Why do you think I'm in the Kingdom of God, when the rules for getting into God's Kingdom are set by God? Think hard now...'

I wonder if you would mind dealing with these counterarguments?

Yes you can, it is clear as daylight that the Greek copy was translating “Allaha” literally. The Gospel itself was preached originally in Aramaic.


Whatever language Jesus may have spoken, John wrote in Greek for Greek speakers. If you want to know what John was trying to say, you have to work with the Greek.

You yourself are distinguishing God from Jesus and admit that through God’s Messenger you knew God.

What I'm saying is that God in Jesus acted, and through His actions we can know God.

The light is jesus himself giving guidance and the darkness is misguidance, when Jesus came misguidance didn’t over take him and you can see that when he was being tested by Satan. 

Guidance isn't mentioned or implied. The Light making the universe is.

Surah yasin does talk about jesus’ disciples, their is a English lecture about it.

Which section?

Like I said the word is God’s expression “Let their be” which is God’s decree. God decreed jesus’ existence at a certain point of time and when it was decreed it became manifest, thus they saw God’s glory which was a great miracle itself

I'm not clear- are you saying that in Genesis when God says “Let there be light” He's referring to Jesus? You may be confusing sunlight in Genesis with the Light that created the universe. John isn't saying the sun came down to earth!

Saul the imposter came later on after the disciples had already preached in some areas.

The New Testament is very clear that the disciples worked very closely with Paul, and the complete lack of disagreement between them about Jesus can only mean they agreed with his belief in Jesus' divinity.

 

 

I'll work through the rest at at a later stage. Thanks again for the reply!

 

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On 6/12/2020 at 11:42 PM, Silas said:

In no mosque that I have ever been to did I see big screen televisions, electric guitars, pretty singing girls, or gaudy decorations. I simply saw men praying to God in a room that had only essential decoration. I saw people serious about their faith. I saw a kind of fullness in the emptiness. 

I know what you mean. However they're by no means all like that. You can find that sort of devoted, quiet, thoughtful worship in other churches.

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2 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

I know what you mean. However they're by no means all like that. You can find that sort of devoted, quiet, thoughtful worship in other churches.

I agree. Many churches have begun having conversations about how effective for relationships, training, teaching, etc., it is to have a large group with one preacher and of course all that extra stuff that makes it look like a show. Some churches are focusing more on small groups in houses or cafés and some are losing the building all together. I was part of a house church once and it was a great experience. I think that as times become harder for the church we probably will see more moving to houses or other places. Tv’s and other things can be useful tools but can also cause a hindrance. The church is not near perfect and will never be until Jesus comes. Also, the church is not the building but rather the people. There are many good changes the church overall could go through especially in the West where true Christianity seems to be in competition with culture and fads. However, I still see God at work in many ways and places where good conversations are happening about how to go deeper in Christ and scripture and our “first love.” In fact, Jesus rebukes many churches in the beginning of the book of Revelation for a number of things and warns them about what they are doing and to turn back. The western church reminds me of some of these, one in particular that stands out above the rest. 

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10 hours ago, Leslie P said:

1) The immediate context is that of who gets to be part of the Kingdom of God. The question of Jesus' divinity has not been raised in any way or form.

Before jesus answered his question He questioned the questioner for calling him “Good”. Jesus didn’t want any praise not even a minor praise rather he wanted all praise to God hence why he said “only God is good alone” the FACT that he said “only God is good Alone” after saying “why do you call me good” it shows that Jesus is not God. 

 

10 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Matthew paraphrases Jesus' comment to explain what He meant, which is 'Why do you think I'm in the Kingdom of God, when the rules for getting into God's Kingdom are set by God? Think hard now...'

Mathew alters the original which is in Marks version because they desperately wanted to make jesus Divine. And you also admitted it was altered. 

 

10 hours ago, Leslie P said:

'm not clear- are you saying that in Genesis when God says “Let there be light” He's referring to Jesus? You may be confusing sunlight in Genesis with the Light that created the universe. John isn't saying the sun came down to earth!

John 1:1-3

“1In the beginning was the word(Let their be) and the word(Let their be) was with God and the word(Let their Be) was divine. 2It was with God in the beginning. 3Through it all things were made; without it nothing was made that had been made.”

the word is a reference to the expression “Let their be” which is God’s decree.

this part of the passage is showing without the divine decree everything that has been made wouldn’t exisist. 

10 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Guidance isn't mentioned or implied. The Light making the universe is.

John1:4-5

4In it(the word) was life, and that life was the light(guide) of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it.

it is very well implied, term “light” has always been a reference to guidance and the term “darkness” has always been a term in reference to misguidance. 

If you read it in context it’s pretty clear. 

Over here when it says “in it(i.e the word) was life” that life is jesus himself, jesus was also in God’s foreknowledge and part of God’s will and decree but was appointed at a certain point of time in this case, and the the passage says “and that life was the light of all mankind” the passage shows that Jesus was the light(meaning the guide) of all mankind, this passage shows that Jesus came to bring guidance and bring people to a righteous path and adhere to the radical monotheism which the prophets and Messengers before him taught to their own people and across other countries.

same way Jeremiah was in God’s foreknowledge likewise with Jesus. 

10 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Whatever language Jesus may have spoken, John wrote in Greek for Greek speakers. If you want to know what John was trying to say, you have to work with the Greek.

Jesus taught in Aramaic and even Paul the imposter when he claimed to have a dream about Jesus appointing him he says he spoke to me in Aramaic. 

“Ho(the) theos(God)” “Allaha” “the God” 

Ho theos is the literal translation of the word “Allaha” 

the original gospel was in Aramaic, the epistles of Paul predate the 4 gospels and it shows their was a another gospel that existed in his time, that gospel is the real one not Paul’s fabricated one full of Hellenistic beliefs. 

10 hours ago, Leslie P said:

The New Testament is very clear that the disciples worked very closely with Paul, and the complete lack of disagreement between them about Jesus can only mean they agreed with his belief in Jesus' divinity.

Paul was being shady behind their back hence why he didn’t want apostle Mark with him and also the Holy spirit (Gabriel) exposed him when he set him apart with Barnabas. 

Jesus’ disciples didn’t believe he was divine. 

jesus was a Messenger like the previous ones 

Acts 2: 22“Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth WAS A MAN accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

Acts 3: “13The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.”

 

Acts 2: “33Exalted(lifted up) to the right hand of God(highest heaven), he(jesus) has received from the LORD the promised Holy spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.”

again we can see the Holy spirit being a gift from God to strengthen, and to the give enables prophets messengers and imams(disciples in ur case) to perform miracles and reach a high spiritual state from the get go. 

The disciples definitely didn’t believe Jesus was divine. 

 

Edited by THREE1THREE

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13 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Which section?

Quote

Coin for them a similitude: The people of the city when those sent (from Allah) came unto them; (13) When We sent unto them twain, and they denied them both, so We reinforced them with a third, and they said: Lo! we have been sent unto you. (14) They said: Ye are but mortals like unto us. The Beneficent hath naught revealed. Ye do but lie! .....http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.pickthall/36:13

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_Ya-Sin

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Sura_Yasin

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Habib_al-Najjar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habib_the_Carpenter

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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On 6/12/2020 at 6:42 PM, Silas said:

Nathan:

If we steer the question toward more pragmatic avenues, I would ask you what Christianity has brought your people, culture, and nation? There was a time in which it was a metaphysical ideal, and a cohesive force, but under the surface there were terrible contradictions and confusions (the Trinity, divinity of Jesus, confusing scripture), and this opened the door for innovation, heresy, persecution, and finally dissolution.

You see, most westerners never encounter Islam. They have never been to a Masjid, either Shia or Sunni. And if they did go to one, they would likely see a cohesive community of believers, not this charade that happens every Sunday in the Christian church.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with women who sing, be them pretty or not. I think focusing on beauty is more of a issue of an individuals heart than it is of the woman or the church.

I do agree that some churches can be flashy, particularly large churches that have a lot of resources or churches of younger adherents, but this certainly isn't the rule. Most churches realistically do not have flashy beautiful women. And personally, I think groups like Hillsong United do a fantastic job making praise music, especially in songs like Oceans or 100 billion X (despite their use of musical instruments and guitares). The music of course isn't about the singers attractiveness, of course artists aren't going to go up on stage in their pajamas with a paper bag on their heads. If they're attractive then it just is what it is. 

You mentioned Christianity turning men into passive non-assertive creatures, try telling that to the gun toting conservatives. There are Christians of course who will draw a weapon on people just for stepping on their lawn.

And missionaries of course are not seeking out non Christians because they're concerned about their beliefs. Usually they're just looking to spread what they view as the love of Christ.

 

Anyway...

 

I think it's fair to say that there is division in both Christianity and Islam, in churches and mosques. I think anyone who has experience in either is well aware of these divisions. In my brief experience in Islam, I don't think I would use the word "cohesive" at all (how many topics come up here on sc about mens rejected marriage proposals due to their race or culture?), but I understand that in both Christianity and Islam, people come in all shapes and sizes, colors, cultures, races etc. And that's ok, because I know both places of worship also provide love, fellowship and cohesiveness despite the shortcomings they also experience.

And you asked this question of what Christianity has brought a community. To be fair, in these times of daesh, I'm not sure that Christianity could be worst in what it has introduced. We could go down a rabbit hole of pointing fingers at sources of damage to society, but I just don't think Islam has noticeably done anything that Christianity has not also done, be it good or bad.

And regarding the Trinity, I just don't think Islam has any more of a concrete base to stand on when it comes down to rigid philosophic (or scientific) critique. I think religion at large has a lot of short comings in justification and lot of it is simply faith based. And it can either be taken or left as subjective. 

 

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On 6/16/2020 at 7:46 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Thanks for the information. This isn't something I know much about, so I'm not putting a POV across when I ask the following: the only potential mention of Christians would appear to be 'People of the City', and scholarship appears to be very divided about what it refers to. A large body of opinion seems to think the events took place before Jesus. Is that a fair summary of where things are?

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On 6/16/2020 at 5:45 AM, THREE1THREE said:
 

That’s a from of modalism. 

Thanks for the replies again.

It could just as easily be Trinitarian, which I am.

These sorts of detailed dictionary definition discussions never troubled the Early Church, and they don't need to trouble the modern one.

Before jesus answered his question He questioned the questioner for calling him “Good”. Jesus didn’t want any praise not even a minor praise rather he wanted all praise to God hence why he said “only God is good alone” the FACT that he said “only God is good Alone” after saying “why do you call me good” it shows that Jesus is not God.

OK, let's zoom out a little. An awful lot of what Jesus does in the New Testament is about 'changing the rules'. Parables, direct quotes, oblique hints...The way God is followed is going to be very different once Jesus has done what needs to be done.

Now Torah was given by God. It was 'the rules'. Only God could change it.

So when the man comes along and asks Jesus 'what are the rules?', Jesus replies “What is it about me that makes you think I can define what the rules are? Only God can do that.” Jesus is about to change the rules, but the time for that is not yet. So Jesus does what He did a lot, and poses a puzzle. Remember he asks a question, rather than issues a denial.

This fits far better with the whole flow of the passage being about Torah, rather than the complete go off somewhere else to talk divinity.

Look, by the time Mark was written the Church was very clear that Jesus was God. No way is Mark going to write anything different to that, and if he had, the Church would have deleted it. You're looking for something that couldn't ever be there.

Mathew alters the original which is in Marks version because they desperately wanted to make jesus Divine. And you also admitted it was altered. 

You're saying that Matthew wanted to push the divinity of Jesus. I agree. But you also seem to be saying that John isn't pushing the divinity of Jesus. This is rather unusual, because John is universally recognised as the one pushing divinity much harder.

Matthew is paraphrasing what Jesus said because it wasn't clear, and he was making it clear. He was trying to avoid avoidable discussions like this about what Jesus meant!

it is very well implied, term “light” has always been a reference to guidance and the term “darkness” has always been a term in reference to misguidance. 


If you read it in context it’s pretty clear. 

Not at all. Phos (Strong's 5457) means light, not guidance. If there were any doubt, John is contrasting it with darkness. There's really no wiggle room. It's light and darkness.

Your interpretation about 'guidance' is absolutely at odds with the consensus within scholarship on this.

the passage shows that Jesus was the light(meaning the guide) of all mankind, this passage shows that Jesus came to bring guidance and bring people to a righteous path

And yet He ended up with a belief owned by billions that He was God. Surely that is misguidance?

Jesus taught in Aramaic and even Paul the imposter when he claimed to have a dream about Jesus appointing him he says he spoke to me in Aramaic.

the original gospel was in Aramaic, the epistles of Paul predate the 4 gospels and it shows their was a another gospel that existed in his time, that gospel is the real one not Paul’s fabricated one full of Hellenistic beliefs.

Ah, I see the problem now. It's a common mistake. The word Gospel has two different meanings. #1 It means 'proclamation' as in 'Jesus Gospel was the start of the Kingdom of God'. #2 It can also mean a written book about Jesus (usually Matt/Mark/Luke/John). Thus “Jesus' Gospel is recorded in John's Gospel” makes sense.

If we want to know what John thought about Jesus, we therefore have to work with Greek, because it's the language John used to describe Jesus.

Paul was being shady behind their back hence why he didn’t want apostle Mark with him and also the Holy spirit (Gabriel) exposed him when he set him apart with Barnabas.

Paul was very out in the open. What he was trying to do about leaving Torah behind was immensely controversial and absolutely guaranteed to bring him under the heaviest of scrutiny, and it must have been very challenging for Peter to keep supporting him. He would only have done so if he, an eyewitness to Jesus, were convinced Paul was right.

 

 

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Here's another case, similar to the discussed above, in which Jesus is distinguished from both mankind, as well as any prophet, in that Jesus displays the power to forgive sin, which is otherwise considered to be an act of God by those who disbelieved.

Mark 2:1-11

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 2:1-11&version=NIV

Mark 2:1-11
New International Version

Jesus Forgives and Heals a Paralyzed Man(A)

A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11 “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”

Jesus often spoke on cryptic ways about his relationship with the father. Often he would answer questions with further questions. He would ask his disciples, "who do you say I am?" (Mark 8:27-30) as he taught his disciples of his ultimate fate at the cross. Christ the Messiah, the savior sent in the line of David through the promise of salvation.

People who are familiar with the new testament know that Jesus is described as a savior for all of mankind and for all eternity, and is described this way by all narrators of the new testament, including the apostle Paul.

And it is through this ability to save and to forgive sins, that Jesus is considered greater than any typical man and greater than any prophet. Rather he is Christ the Messiah.

Jesus is quoted saying:

John 14:6 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

And Jesus said:

Matthew 22:36-40
New International Version

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40  All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

And the disciples (including Paul) went on to teach this, as they perceived the message. Jesus came, died on the cross and fulfilled his destiny as the Lamb of God. And this is consistent throughout the New testament. 

And people who try to put emphasis on Paul or on the Trinity, are missing this key, consistent concept that is reiterated countless times throughout scripture by the disciples of Jesus (again including Paul). The concept that Jesus is Christ the Savior, and that Jesus a divine and intimate relationship with the father that is beyond anything of any other human being and beyond any other prophet of all time.

The only real solution deniers have to such teachings of the New Testament, is to essentially just call all of the disciples terrorists, liars and arrogant fools. They must deny the crucifixion despite it being referenced in each book, they must deny the resurection, despite the Apostle Thomas sticking his fingers in Jesus' side, they must deny each and every book of the New Testament and each and every follower of Christ.

John 20:24-27 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Appears to Thomas

24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus[a]), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

 

Which is a strange position to hold for those who simultaneously believe that Jesus was a prophet. To believe he was divinely appointed, but then to reject all written material about him by those he taught.

Edited by iCenozoic

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7 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Jesus is about to change the rules, but the time for that is not yet.

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

The questioner is asking what must I do to inherit enteral life. But before that he calls jesus “Good teacher” then jesus says to him “why do you call me good?” Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise not the least. Ready he wanted it all praise to God thus he says “on one is good except God alone” THEN jesus tells him about the commandments. God has always changed laws through laws through prophets, an example is when Moses came abrogated the Noahide laws, does that make Moses God ? No!  Likewise with Jesus, Jesus was simply carrying God’s commandments and purpose. Your claims are just wishful thinking your are taking the the first part of the incident out of context. 

16 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

This is rather unusual, because John is universally recognised as the one pushing divinity much harder.

No it doesn’t because the verses that are used to supposedly support the trinity are deliberately mistranslated to support a doctrine that came in the 4th century. 

 

19 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Ah, I see the problem now. It's a common mistake. The word Gospel has two different meanings. #1 It means 'proclamation' as in 'Jesus Gospel was the start of the Kingdom of God'. #2 It can also mean a written book about Jesus (usually Matt/Mark/Luke/John). Thus “Jesus' Gospel is recorded in John's Gospel” makes sense.

If we want to know what John thought about Jesus, we therefore have to work with Greek, because it's the language John used to describe Jesus.

Again wishful thinking, go to the thread “are humans stronger then God” and read my comment on that matter. 

Quick footnote: the authors of these gospels are anonymous and are not written by disciples otherwise  they wouldn’t contradict on each other on certain events and misquote verses from the OT and do mistakes and also in the footnotes it wouldn’t say “some manuscripts say this...” and they wouldn’t lack events which are not mentioned in other gospel(s) and finally their would be right back one Gospel not 4. Luke is not even a disciple of Christ he is a friend of the imposter. 

22 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Not at all. Phos (Strong's 5457) means light, not guidance. If there were any doubt, John is contrasting it with darkness. There's really no wiggle room. It's light and darkness.

Your interpretation about 'guidance' is absolutely at odds with the consensus within scholarship on this.

The light is jesus himself he represents guidance and darkness is Satan he represents misguidance. The passage then says darkness has not overcome it. This corresponds with other Mathew and Mark on jesus being tested in the desert by Satan except gospel according to John uses a different wordings to discribe jesus’ infallibility. 

These scholarships take these expressions out of context to support their own wishful thinking. “Light” and “darkness” are expressions if made that clear in my previous comments. 

28 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Not at all. Phos (Strong's 5457) means light, not guidance. If there were any doubt, John is contrasting it with darkness. There's really no wiggle room. It's light and darkness.

Your interpretation about 'guidance' is absolutely at odds with the consensus within scholarship on this.

Hence why he said in a parable in Mathew 7:13-14 that the true path is gonna be hard to find and only a minority will find it. 

37 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Paul was very out in the open.

Paul was a deceiver. Read the thread “Saul(Paul) refuted” it goes in complete depth. 

 

38 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

You're saying that Matthew wanted to push the divinity of Jesus. I agree.

Mathew wanted to Push the idea of dualism/Greek methodology, The Father who dwells in heaven and the Son aswell but then the son comes down to earth but the son is not equal to the Father rather he is a lower god. 

Go to the thread “Doctrine of the trinity refuted” it goes in-depth on the trinity. 

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@iCambrian 

You neglect all clear arguments and verses which over weight ur wishful thinking yet you are still holding on to a thin string.

Mark 2:

 4Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’? 10But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the man, 11“I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.”

verse 10 was added by Paulines and another thing, Jesus calls himself then “Son of Man” which is an idiom for “Human” expressing “I am human” 

ur Christian bible translations the idiom in Numbers 23:19 as “human”, instead of translating the idiom they explain the idiom. 

As for that incident we see jesus giving the paralyzed man good knews by saying, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7“Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

The Jews thought  of him being blasphemous saying such things 

8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, “Why are you thinking these things? 

over here we can see that Jesus questions them for having such thoughts of accusing him of blasphemy 

9Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’?  The Jews knew very well only prophets can do such miracles and receive revelation regarding someone’s sins weather they are forgiven or not at this point the Jews didn’t answer then jesus goes further to clarify the matter.

So he said to the man, 11“I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home.” 

At this point the Jews could only come to the conclusion that he is a prophet of God and is the messiah to come since he showed a clear miracle and jesus questioned their evil thoughts thus Deuteronomy 13 could not be applied to him. The people praised God for seeing such a marvellous incident and knew that he is definitely prophet of God since he has God given authority like the previous prophets. 

If Jesus was God he wouldn’t question their thoughts and clarify the matter, rather he would say he is God and case closed. 

Mathew 9:

4Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?

Mathew 9:

8When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.

my argument and explanation still stands as it can be seen. 

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32 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Paul’s wasn’t with them you deceiver go read the book of acts when Paul met the disciples this just shows how arrogant u are. 

You're dodging the point made above.

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1 minute ago, iCenozoic said:

You're dodging the point made above.

I’ve refute all ur rubbish Baseless claims, go read the threads of Dave, Nathan and tdawg626 they brought many verses and arguments which I refuted and stop posting in full caps .

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53 minutes ago, iCenozoic said:
Matthew 22:36-40
New International Version

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’

38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40  All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

The original one is Mark. Go read it. 

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The real reason you don't like Paul isn't because of how his words compare to those in the book of Mathew, it's because you're uncomfortable with the core message of the new testament. And there is no reason to sugar coat this one. You're Muslim, you just don't like what the Bible says (whether written by Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, or anyone else).

You don't even believe in the message of the books of Mark, Luke, Mathew and John, let alone is it reasonable for you to try to compare and contrast them with the Pauline Letters. Be it through a trinitarian or unitarian lense, the message is consistent.

You're focusing on Paul, as if Paul is somehow unique in this matter. But in reality, when you reject the Pauline letters, you're really rejecting the crucifixion, you're rejecting the resurrection, you're rejecting that Jesus died for our sins, which is really a consistent message throughout the New Testament for which the Pauline letters are based. These above items are at the core of Pauls letters. In Paul's letters, he is reflecting on the divine nature and saving power of Jesus. Which is greater than any other human being or other Prophet of all time (as noted above). When Jesus notes that loving your neighbor as yourself' (and Loving the Father God) as the greatest of commandments, Paul is just taking it a step further and is saying, in cases where people are divided over historical commandments love one another above those cases. 

Your wholesale rejection of the new testament while simultaneous praise of Jesus, is irrational. When interpreting scirpture, either you should reject Jesus' divinity and exceptional power as a savior of mankind (as a product of rejecting the works of his apostles), or you should accept what his followers have taught about him.

There isn't room for this in-between conspiracy where some apostles believed Jesus was the Messiah and some didnt, and this idea that perhaps some apostles were undercover saboteurs working against Jesus' establishment.

Really what you're doing is just cherry picking. Accepting passages that you want to believe about the Bible based on preconceived beliefs, while rejecting passages of the Bible that aren't fitting your worldview, and thereby calling all others arrogant terrorists, including St. Paul.

This about summarizes your position^. None of which is based on any external objective analysis. It's all just based on your personal subjective views of Christian scripture (regardless of what Christian theologians say).

Edited by iCenozoic

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1 hour ago, THREE1THREE said:

The original one is Mark. Go read it. 

"verse 10 was added by Paulines "

It's been read. 

You quote the book of Mathew, but clearly you don't accept what the book of Mathew says to begin with.

Then when the book of mark is quoted, you reject the book of Mark.

Either you accept what the apostles are saying, or you don't.  You can't go around cherry picking any and every passage, trying to accept some things while rejecting others, accepting some things said by some apostles while otherwise calling them all liars.

Edited by iCenozoic

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1 hour ago, THREE1THREE said:

The original one is Mark. Go read it. 

"verse 10 was added by Paulines "

Also, if you reject the book of Mathew because it isn't "the original one" and reject the book of mark because it's been "added to". That's fine if you just don't believe what these things say.

But rather than trying to play some games of weird cherry picking and trying to make logical arguments based on subjective interpretations, you should just simply say "I don't believe what the Bible says".

And then we could move on to more fundamental questions about the nature of scripture at large.

No discussion could ever be resolved if you simply don't have faith in Jesus. And that's ok. Many people don't believe Jesus is the Savior. But let's not try to act like scripture doesn't openly discuss Jesus' divine nature, whether you believe it's true or not. The scripture says what it says.

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On 6/17/2020 at 7:41 PM, iCenozoic said:

You can't go around cherry picking

You are the one cherry picking passages from other gospels in hopes to support a baseless doctrine. I accept what’s inline with the Law and the prophets which I’ve demonstrated. 

Jesus came to fulfil the Law and he prophets not abolish them. Mathew 5:17

Exodus 20:4 God makes it clear he is transcendent tells the believers to not even make a likeness to God let alone an image.

Numbers 23:19 God makes it clear he is not the Son of Man nor a man.

Deuteronomy 4:15-19 makes it clear to believers that they saw no form when they talked to God from bush they were just words and to not make an image. Which clearly shows it is blasphemous to even believe God coming down to earth, the moment you do u have given Him a form which nullifies God being Omniscient,omnipoten,omnipresent , and the All-seeing. 

2 Chronicles 6:18 But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

2 Chronicles 2:6 But who is able to build a temple for Him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain Him? Who then am I to build a temple for Him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before Him?

the heavens cannot contain God let alone Solomon’s temple what makes you think eath can contain God.

On 6/17/2020 at 8:07 PM, iCenozoic said:

have faith in Jesus

You stay having blind and not use ur brain. But once you see Ezrael coming angry after ur soul and see the hellfire you will beg God to come back to earth and not ignore the clear verses which jesus came to fulfil. 

On 6/17/2020 at 8:07 PM, iCenozoic said:

But let's not try to act like scripture doesn't openly discuss Jesus' divine nature, whether you believe it's true or not. The scripture says what it says.

It doesn’t, yous just take incidents out of context to and deliberately misinterpret verses to support a doctrine that came in the 4th century which even your scholars admit as I have shown. 

Gospel ain’t scripture it’s a biography.

Edited by Mahdavist

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@iCambrian  , the Pauline epistles predate the 4 gospels they didn’t exsist, obviously when they were written they had a influence on Paulines doctrine and elements . Paul had the upper since he persecuted and terrorised the original followers of Christ and later on they were persecuted and killed by the Romans aswell along side the early Arians so obviously Paul’s teachings would be widespread and put into other gospels not just the 4.

you deny Paul being dualist when it has been clearly shown. 

 

Edited by Mahdavist
Personal attacks removed

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16 hours ago, Leslie P said:

the only potential mention of Christians would appear to be 'People of the City', and scholarship appears to be very divided about what it refers to. A large body of opinion seems to think the events took place before Jesus. Is that a fair summary of where things are?

Hi 'People of the City' were pagans or unbelievers which they martyred the man from their city that approved the two messengers even they martyred three messenger that sent by prophet Isa (عليه السلام) [Jesus] so their story happened when prophet Isa (عليه السلام) [Jesus] was preaching among  Jews but sunni sources shifted it's time to after his ascending to paradise to introduce Paul as one one of messengers

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The Story of Habib al-Najjar's Belief and His Murder
In Islamic historical and exegetic sources, this story is mentioned with more details and sometimes with some differences. According to them, Prophet Jesus (a) sends two of his apostles to Antakya referred to al-Qarya in the Qur'an. The messengers of Jesus (a) encountered an old shepherd out of the town and invited him to worship God and to accept the religion of Jesus (a). The shepherd asked them to show him a miracle and they healed his ill son. That old man was Habib al-Najjar who believed in their words. Other reasons are also mentioned for Habib al-Najjar's belief, including that the messengers revived his son, who had died seven days before. In another report, they healed Habib himself who suffered from leprosy. After the messengers entered the town, they were imprisoned by the order of the king. Jesus (a) sent a third messenger to help them and they showed miracles before the king, but according to a report, the king and his companions decided to kill the messengers. When Habib al-Najjar received the news about it, hastily went to deniers and invited them to monotheism and to believe in the hereafter, but people attacked him and killed him in a heinous manner.

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Habib_al-Najjar

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