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In the Name of God بسم الله
Nathan

Was Jesus a Liar or a Madman?

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21 minutes ago, tdawg626 said:

the judge of the world gave himself as the rason for our sin, not a third party of human judge.  

 

So God has to commit suicide in order to forgive other people’s sins... he couldn’t forgive like He did before.... 

Ezekiel 18:18-22

“[But] his father, because he illegally suppressed, committed robbery against his brother and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his sin.

Yet you say, "Why does the son not bear with the sin of the father?" But the son has practiced justice and righteousness, he has kept all My laws and he carries them out; he shall surely live.

The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the sin of the father, and a father shall not bear the sin of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.”

2 Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face(favours), and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

Ecclesiastes 12:13 “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” 

I Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

24 minutes ago, tdawg626 said:

Being let out of the charges and having a bail paid for you are radically different in the U.S. 

You shouldn’t be thinking that deep.... my reply to Nathan was pretty clear, the judge wouldn’t forgive and that person would be stuck in jail forever unless someone came and offered to pay to bail him out. 

 

Obviously while God has forgiven that person their is a penalty in this that he has to pay which is set by God. For example if that person committed murder the family of the victim can either forgave, demand blood money or have him executed. 

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9 minutes ago, tdawg626 said:

The statment about God being good alone does not state that Jesus is not God or good.  Is Jesus not good?  Even if Jesus was only a prophet was he not good? 

Jesus was humbling himself when he questioned the guy “why do you call me good? Only God is good alone” Jesus didn’t like any sort of praise rather he wanted all praise to God. If Jesus was God then he wouldn’t say “only God is good alone” after questioning the man on calling him “GOOD” teacher. It’s common sense. 

 

As for John 10:27-39 very desperate attempt, the Jews know the meaning of Pslams 82:6 very well, it is about God’s Messengers calling them godly men and showing that even godly men like the Messengers of God will leave this world cos this world is not the final abode. 

Jesus refuted them by simply showing that what he said was not literal rather an expression. 

 

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On 5/18/2020 at 11:57 PM, Nathan said:

Greetings! I would like to open up this topic to discuss the person of Jesus. In the Bible, Jesus clearly says that He is the Son of God. C.S. Lewis is one of my favorite authors and this quote from him is very thought provoking. Here it is: “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.” I would love to hear your thoughts and also your perspectives on Jesus according to the Qu'ran. Thank you!

I think Jesus is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power as stated in the book of Hebrews.  It sure is a beautiful quote for the one with whom we can have a relationship with as a son or daughter.  People did not understand Jesus because he was not of this world.  He spoke heavenly words and most did not get him and it is still that way, although he will reveal himself to those who don't even choose him.

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10 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

that he is "I am

In Hebrew it says “Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh”, Ehyeh is just a word which mean “i will” and also “I will be” in exodus 3:12 God tells Moses “Ehyeh(i will be)  immek(with you)”. “I am” in Hebrew is “Ani” or also “Ani hu” not “Ehyeh” the world “Ehyeh” is used so many times across the Hebrew bible and it has nothing to do with God’s name it’s just a word. 

 

As for the Pslams 82:6 to make things more clear jesus gives the interpretation of this aswell 

 34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ? 35If He called them ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world?

It is crystal clear that Psalms 82:6 is about the Messengers of God who received the scripture. 

Jesus points out that God calls the Messengers “elohim”, he is challenging them that is this to bo taken literally or an expression? The Jews knew very well this was an expression and that then messengers are not gods beside God so then jesus continues and says, “36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world?” Jesus makes it clear that he is a Messenger of God not God and that the “I and the Father are one” is an expression Just like “you are elohim” is an expression.

 

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15 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

including Son of God and Son of Man

The term “Son of Man” is an Idiom for “I am human” prophet Ezekiel had the title of Son of Man.

 

John 10:

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ? 35If he called them ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.

Pslams 82:6 calls the Messengers of God the Sons of the Most High I.e the sons of God, it is simply an expression meaning they are godly servants of God who are spiritually close to God who received scripture from God to preach. After you have read many of other replies, you will see that you have no basis for your argument. 

 

And also you are contradicting yourself and not being consistent, first you say jesus is God then you say he is the Son of God. 

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On 5/27/2020 at 11:09 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

person looking like a human - a Son of Man - is given things that only God can have.

All Messengers of God sent to the children of Israel had some authority from God, the miracles that they preformed was by God’s will. God gives some authority to prophets to perform certain miracles. 

On 5/27/2020 at 11:09 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

worshiped him.

That has been terrible mistranslated, 

And He gave him dominion and glory and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and tongues shall serve him; his dominion is an eternal dominion, which will not be removed, and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.

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On 5/19/2020 at 6:22 PM, Nathan said:

Thanks for your reply Guest Guest! So I can understand what you're saying and I assume that these are teachings in the Qu'ran but this doesn't match up with the New Testament of the Bible. Are the passages that refer to Jesus being the Son of God or Jesus' death and resurrection considered by Muslims to be sections of the Bible that have been changed?

I think himanbeings are mentioned in Bible to be children of God. Am I correct?

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On 5/30/2020 at 2:12 PM, Flying_Eagle said:

I think himanbeings are mentioned in Bible to be children of God. Am I correct?

With apologies to Nathan, I wonder if I could leap in on this one.

'Son of God' has three main meanings in the Old Testament. (a) angels (Genesis/Job) (b) Israel as a whole (Exodus/Jeremiah etc) and (c) the son of David/the Messiah (2 Sam/Psalms). It was believed that the Messiah would act on behalf of Israel as a whole.

Because Jesus did things which God said He would do, the disciples concluded he must be God.

The phrase 'Son of God' when used in the New Testament refers to what Jesus did, and came rapidly to include the belief that Jesus therefore had to be identified with God.

Jesus did what the Messiah had to do, which is why He is called Son of God, but far, far more which is why it became to mean His inclusion with God.

 

There is massive evidence that the earliest disciples believed that Jesus did this far, far more. Why is that?

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13 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Son of God' has three main meanings in the Old Testament.

Jacob(Israel) was called the son of God, in gensis the righteous men were called the sons of God and also the messagers of God were called the sons of God. 

John 10:34-37

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ? 35If He called them ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.

the Jews took “I and the Father are one” literally and accused jesus of blasphemy by saying he claimed to be God. Jesus refutes them by quoting Pslams 82:6, which is about God’s Messengers, it calls the Messengers “elohim” jesus is challenging them on that particular passage coz they Jews knew that “elohim” was simply an expression meaning “godly people”, jesus was pointing out if saying “I and the Father are one” is blasphemy then so is psalms 82:6 jesus was making it clear that what he said was an expression meaning one in purpose. Pslams 82:6 calls the messengers also the sons of God 

6“I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’

After Jesus refutes them he says to them,

36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’?

over here jesus takes advantage of Pslams 82:6 in the very last passage and uses the expression “son of God” to make it clear that he is not God rather he is a Messenger of God like the previous messengers before him. 

Mark 10:17-18 Jesus questions a questioner for calling him “good teacher” and says at the end only God is good alone. Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise rather he wanted all praise to God almighty. This passage makes it clear that Jesus is not God otherwise he wouldn’t question the questioner and say only God is good ALONE.

 

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14 hours ago, Leslie P said:

With apologies to Nathan, I wonder if I could leap in on this one.

'Son of God' has three main meanings in the Old Testament. (a) angels (Genesis/Job) (b) Israel as a whole (Exodus/Jeremiah etc) and (c) the son of David/the Messiah (2 Sam/Psalms). It was believed that the Messiah would act on behalf of Israel as a whole.

Because Jesus did things which God said He would do, the disciples concluded he must be God.

The phrase 'Son of God' when used in the New Testament refers to what Jesus did, and came rapidly to include the belief that Jesus therefore had to be identified with God.

Jesus did what the Messiah had to do, which is why He is called Son of God, but far, far more which is why it became to mean His inclusion with God.

 

There is massive evidence that the earliest disciples believed that Jesus did this far, far more. Why is that?

So you mean that Jesus was meant by son like normal human beings were meant? And by son is meant one who is under the care of God and not truly a son of God.

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On 6/1/2020 at 7:47 AM, THREE1THREE said:

Jacob(Israel) was called the son of God, in gensis the righteous men were called the sons of God and also the messagers of God were called the sons of God. 

John 10:34-37

<snip>

over here jesus takes advantage of Pslams 82:6 in the very last passage and uses the expression “son of God” to make it clear that he is not God rather he is a Messenger of God like the previous messengers before him. 

Thanks for the reply, as discussing these things is always welcome.

Firstly, any attempt to prove from John's Gospel that Jesus wasn't God is not going to be successful. The Gospel was written specifically to show that Jesus was God, and any hints to the contrary would have been long removed.

Secondly, as I say below, Son of God was a phrase whose meaning is contextual, and here Jesus is using one of the OT meanings.

Thirdly, you've not quite understood Jesus' argument. The argument of the passage runs as 'if unjust rulers get called 'gods' in the OT, how much more should the Father's special representative be called a “Son of God'? Or put differently 'If it's OK to call these bad people Sons of God, what's the problem with calling someone doing the sorts of Godly things I'm doing Son of God?'

Mark 10:17-18 Jesus questions a questioner for calling him “good teacher” and says at the end only God is good alone. Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise rather he wanted all praise to God almighty. This passage makes it clear that Jesus is not God otherwise he wouldn’t question the questioner and say only God is good ALONE.

There are a range of standard answers to this issue, with 'Jesus was trying to direct the man to realise He was God' being popular. That is certainly a full answer to the problem you set, but I tend to the idea that that's not quite it.

Firstly, Jesus is asked in v17 about the rules for being in the Kingdom of God. In v19 Jesus answers with the rules for being in the Kingdom of God. It would be very strange if Jesus started talking about whether He was God or not, given that the topic had in no place or sense been raised.

Secondly, Jesus is doing what He often does, posing a question with a deeper answer than appears on the surface. 'What's your reason for doing this? Perhaps there's more to what you asked than meets the eye...'

Thirdly, Matthew alters the quote to make it clearer what Jesus meant- "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only One who is good"

Fourthly there is a parallel to Jesus' sentence structure in Matthew 23: 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The similarity is that in both of these sentences, Jesus is being coy about something he is, without saying it.

So the general flow is this: 'Why do you think I'm in the Kingdom of God, when the rules for getting into God's Kingdom are set by God? Think hard now...'

I hope these help.

 

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13 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Matthew alters

The fact that you admit that the anonymous author of Mathew alters the original passage shows that there were desperate attempts make jesus the literal son of God and God. 

Here’s the original passage 

Mark 10:17-18

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

jesus questions the questioner for calling him “Good teacher” the reason why he questioned him is because he didn’t want any sort of praise rather he wanted all praise to God Almighty. This incident clearly shows that Jesus is not God 

 

35If he called them ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ TO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME—AND SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE SET ASIDE— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’?

jesus makes is clear Psalms 82:6 is about God’s Messengers, so it is clear that Jesus denies being God rather he is a Messenger of God. 

Heres the the incident.

John 10:27-39

“27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ? 35If he called them ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 

38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.”

 

In john 10:32 we see that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus had meant by “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:29). And in john 10:33 they accused him of blasphemy. Now, had Jesus been God, or had he and God been one in a literal sense then he wouldn’t have hesitated to clarify the matter at that point. Jesus at that point said, “Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?” What he was trying to say was that if the Jews called “I and my Father are one” blasphemy then they should call what was written in their law “You are gods” blasphemy too.

The reasoning behind this is “You are elohim” does not mean that you, the Jewish Messengers, are Gods, it is rather an expression. It just means that you are godly people. The same applies to “I and my Father are one.” It does not mean that Jesus is God or that he and God are the same literally. It’s just an expression meaning they are one in purpose.

 

28 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Firstly, any attempt to prove from John's Gospel that Jesus wasn't God is not going to be successful. The Gospel was written specifically to show that Jesus was God,

Many Trinitarians use the 1st chapter in the gospel according to John to prove the trinity, the issue here is does the first chapter of John really support the trinity or is it a deliberate mistranslation in hopes to support the trinity? Let see the important parts of the passages that are used to support the trinity...

 

John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the word and the word was with Ho Theos and the word was theos. It was with Ho Theos in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that had been made. 

The “him” part in John1:1-3 can legitimately be translated as “it” and not “him” the only reason why it has “him” and not “it” is because trinitarians believe the word is jesus and the word is God thus it should be “him” not “it”. Now the trinitarians have done a big blasphemy on this passage and here’s why, when the passage says “and the word was with God”, the word “God” over here in Greek is “Ho Theos” which means “The God” which is a direct reference to the only one true God, in Aramaic it would be “Allaha” and in Arabic “Allah” the term “Ho Theos” translates the word “Allaha” literally. Then after that passage it says “and the word was theos” now the word “theos” over here can have many meanings to it, it can refer to kings, chiefs, judges or even refer to false gods and also mean divine. The proper translation of this part of the passage is “divine” then the next passage says “it was with God in the beginning” now the  word “God” in this passage in Greek is “Ho Thoes” referring to the one true God. Now if the word was God then it would say “Ho theos” instead of just “theos”,  the word “theos” can have many meanings if the gospel of John intended to show jesus is God the it would blatantly say “and the word was Ho theos” which is not the case.  Now a question arises what are these passages really talking about ? Here’s a long answer.

 

John 1:1-3

“1In the beginning was the word(Let their be) and the word(Let their be) was with God and the word(Let their Be) was divine. 2It was with God in the beginning. 3Through it all things were made; without it nothing was made that had been made.”

John 1:1 is actually referring back to the book of Genesis when God uses the expression “Let their Be” to bring the existence of the earth and what’s in it. The term “Let their Be” is a expression of God’s decree(command). 

When it says “the word was with God” what it’s actually saying is that the expression of “Let their Be”

,Which is the decree, was in God’s foreknowledge, God had already willed to create the heavens and earth and has also created a decree for it to be decreed at certain point of time. That decree and will was already in God’s foreknowledge, thus it says “it was with God in the beginning”. 

And when the passage in John1:1 that says “and the word was divine” what’s its pretty much conveying, is that the word( i.e the decree) is from God, it was a divine order. 

John 1:3 should be easy by now and it pretty much shows that, without God’s decree and will, nothing that has been made would be made. 

Now John1:4-5 is actually a pretty easy part now since we know the proper interpretation of John1:1-3. 

 

John1:4-5

“4In it(the word) was life, and that life was the light(guide) of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. “

Over here when it says “in it(i.e the word) was life” that life is jesus himself, jesus was also in God’s foreknowledge and part of God’s will and decree but was appointed at a certain point of time in this case, and the the passage says “and that life was the light of all mankind” the passage shows that Jesus was the light(meaning the guide) of all mankind, this passage shows that Jesus came to bring guidance and bring people to a righteous path and adhere to the radical monotheism which the prophets and Messengers before him taught to their own people and across other countries. 

In John1:14 when it says “and the word became flesh” this verse is showing that God’s decree was decreed and it was manifested thus it became flesh. If you put  this verse between verse 9 and 10 you will fully understand the verse aswell and what it’s conveying. 

 

John 1:6-14

6There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to bear witness about the light(Messenger), that all might believe through him. 8He was not the light(Messenger); but came to bear witness about the light(Messenger). 

9The true light(Messenger) that gives light(guidance) to everyone was coming into the world. 10It(the word) was in the world and, though the world was made through it(the word) the world did not recognise it(the word). 11He went to his own people, and his own people did not accept him. 12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to be godly servants of God 13They are reborn—not because of natural decent nor of the desire or will of mankind, but reborn for God.

14The word became flesh and made its dwelling among us. We have seen it’s glory, the glory of the LORD’s one and only Messenger.

 

Trinitarians will show some verses that they take out of context to show that Jesus existed before the world thus he must be God since God is uncreated(i.e eternal) and from Him all things came. 

Here is a verse that the trinitarians take out of context to support this claim. John 17:5 “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began.”  Now what the trinitarians don’t show is verse 6 and 7 which then will lead a person to a rational conclusion and give the proper interpretation, here’s verse 6 and 7, John 17:6-7 6“I have revealed You to those whom You gave me out of the world. They were Yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.

In verse 6 it says “I have revealed You to those whom You gave me out of the word.” Now if God gave jesus those who follow him(jesus) outside of the word, which is implying/hints out before the world was created, then those who follow him are also Gods since they also existed before the world was created. Obviously that is blasphemy and polytheism. What verse 6 and verse 5 actually shows is that their was a another realm which our spirits existed, which is similar to purgatory realm, were we testified that God is our LORD and their is no other and we also testified to Jesus’s prophethood and messiahship, as we continue to read verse 6 it says “They were Yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.” Verse 6 shows that we followed God since we testified that He is our LORD, and God made us testify to Jesus’ prophethood and Messiahship, since God glorified him by making him a prophet and messiah thus all the people in the spiritual realm testified to Jesus’ prophethood and messiahship and gave him special importance.  What verse 5 is showing is, Jesus is praying to God to glorify him with the glory that he had, before the world was created, in the spiritual realm where everyone testified to his prophethood and messiahship while God was a witness over him and us, in the world aswell. This will happen when Jesus returns and everyone will testify to Jesus’ prophethood and messiahship. And also the verses show that Jesus is supplicating to God if jesus is God then who is he supplicating to ? Or what’s even worse how many Gods are their ? A God praying to another God?

 

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, not a Son of man, that He should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourselves a graven image or any LIKENESS which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.”

2 Chronicles 6:18 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!”

2 Chronicles 2:6 “But who is able to build a temple for Him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain Him? Who then am I to build a temple for Him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before Him?”

Isaiah 40:25 “To whom will you compare Me? Or is my equal? Says the Holy One.

Isaiah 40:18 To whom will you liken God? To what image will you compare Him?

Isaiah 46:5 “With whom will you compare Me or count Me equal ? To whom will you compare Me so we are alike?” Says the Lord”

Isaiah 44:24 “Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone”

Deuteronomy 4:15-19 “And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. 

Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the heavens, 

the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, likeness of any fish that is in the waters, beneath the earth. 

And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heavens, which the LORD your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.”

Malachi 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change.”

 

Mathew 5:17 17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

jesus came to confirm and fulfil these not abolish them. 

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Perhaps I have commented on this before, and I apologize in advance brothers lol

As a former Christian who is now trying to become Muslim in exile and within a lonely land, I can point out:

1. Jesus was most certainly a prophet, and his example is an excellent one. He was brave, unwavering, loving, and profound. Of the prophets who came before him, he was more approachable, gentle, and understanding. His message wasn't simply one of piety and rescue, it was of determination, dedication, and courage. Never to take a step back, and to suffer the consequences of sincere faith.

2. As others have pointed out here (and I am always amazed by the depth of knowledge and understanding by those in this site), Jesus was not God, nor did he claim to be.

3. Christians confuse the intimate relationship with a prophet for the comfort of Allah.It is like replacing the real thing with something more familiar and comforting.

4. The Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is the last prophet, and this is when the faith becomes universal, deep, and profound. We move away from Hebrew legalisms, or the chastisement of the ancient prophets, and into a a new realm.

At one point, I was a devout Christian. But like T.E. Lawrence, I looked out into the desert and realized that the empty space had more fullness and profundity than my soul and my heart. There had to be something wrong with the world, or something wrong with me. The people in the desert or even in the towns and cities had something I didn't.

So was Jesus a madman or a liar? I understand the contradiction. But who was it that said "we are all God's madmen"?

I love C.S. Lewis, I think he is a profound thinker and writer, and every Muslim should read his works, but he only got so far.

I don't feel worthy of this great faith, and I will listen and learn

but i hope that helps ;)

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On 6/3/2020 at 7:47 PM, THREE1THREE said:

The fact that...

<snip>

jesus came to confirm and fulfil these not abolish them. 

Thanks for the lengthy reply. Some food for thought there.

Matthew 5:17

The word used is not confirm, but fulfil. The Torah was fulfilled (purpose achieved) by Jesus through His death on the cross and that was validated by His resurrection.

Mark 10: 17,18

Calling someone good is not giving them praise which should be reserved for God. If I tell someone they're a good Muslim, they would most likely just say thank you.

Basically, Jesus is asking for the reasons the man had for calling Him righteous, given that God is the single source of righteousness.

John 10:34-37

As I said, John's gospel was specifically written to show that Jesus is God, and any indication He wasn't simply isn't going to be there.

You're reading the phrase Son of God wrong. Here in its OT context it means representative of God.

Jesus isn't claiming that both things are blasphemy as you suggest, He is claiming that neither are. That's the point of His argument.

Jesus is saying that calling if bad rulers can still be given the title Sons of God because that's their role, then someone doing God's work can surely also be given the title.

John 1

The arguments over 'Ho Theos' are long and technical and best avoided.

the passage shows that Jesus was the light(meaning the guide) of all mankind

I agree, however the 'Muslim Jesus' wasn't the light of all mankind, but a prophet whose message was quickly lost. The 'Christian Jesus' very much was the light of all mankind.

Also phos means light, not guide. Strong's 5457

However you misread what John is doing.

He's using his prologue to rerun Genesis 1, in which God created the universe. In John 1, Jesus is identified as the one who created the universe. There is no room for doubt that John is therefore identifying Jesus with God. The One who created the universe came down to earth as a human. A stunning claim, made by those who knew Jesus in His lifetime.

 

I hope this is helpful.

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

Calling someone good is not giving them praise which should be reserved for God. If I tell someone they're a good Muslim, they would most likely just say thank you.

 

Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise at all, this is a minor praise. Jesus was simply being humble. You are trying very hard to misinterpret the incident.

As for John 10:27-39 I’ve already given an explanation, you have no basis for your argument. 

23 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

by Jesus through His death on the cross and that was validated by His resurrection.

Again no basis, read from 17 to 20, fulfilling is affirming. 

23 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

I agree, however the 'Muslim Jesus' wasn't the light of all mankind, but a prophet whose message was quickly lost. The 'Christian Jesus' very much was the light of all mankind.

Jesus disciples made sure to spread it through out the Gentiles until all the true followers of Christ were killed by the Romans after they were called by Paul. Surah yasin is about Jesus message being spread to the Gentiles. The term “light” is simply an expression for “guide” or “guidance” in Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic this expression is used very much, the gosepel was originally preached in Aramaic. 

As for my interpretation of John 1:, it is definitely correct and has a basis and argument. 

23 minutes ago, Leslie P said:

he arguments over 'Ho Theos' are long and technical and best avoided.

I got technical and it is clearly a literal translation of the word “Allaha” in Aramaic so my argument stands correct and again the gospel was preached originally in Aramaic. 

Gospel according to John didn’t intend to show Jesus was God on the contrary.

John 17:3-4

“3Now this is eternal life: that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent”

“4I have brought You glory on earth by finishing the work You gave me to do”

it is clear jesus was just a Messenger of God once again. 

Edited by THREE1THREE
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On 6/7/2020 at 3:37 PM, AkhiraisReal said:

Hi, Interesting.

May I ask what made you research into islam?

Hi, 

I have served overseas working in Muslim communities, have had good Muslim friends, and have ministered to them on a college campus I used to work at.  I have enjoyed getting to know those I met.  I also like to talk about Jesus with Muslims and so learning more about their faith is important

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On 6/7/2020 at 8:22 PM, AkhiraisReal said:

may I ask how the christians in this forum even found this website.

Hello Akhirais,

I serve as a missionary overseas. With Corona causing it to be impossible to do much of my normal work serving to teach the Bible at church and kids programs, I began looking for ways that I could share the love of Jesus online. That's how I came across the site and I have enjoyed getting to have good discussions with you and all the rest of the people on Shiachat. I'm thankful for the mutual respect we can have for one another despite our different beliefs. I look forward to a lot of thinking and debating together! :) 

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On 6/5/2020 at 3:30 AM, Silas said:

2. As others have pointed out here (and I am always amazed by the depth of knowledge and understanding by those in this site), Jesus was not God, nor did he claim to be.

Hello Silas,

I appreciated your post and I think you have a very good idea of Jesus' character. However, I must respectfully disagree with the fact that Jesus did not claim to be God. I've seen this stated many times on this site and I wanted to try to offer my thoughts. 

Jesus was very ambiguous about the fact that He was God but the reason was because in the sovereignty of God, things needed to happen at certain times. I know this passage of Scripture from John 7:1-31 is a little long, but I would truly appreciate it if everyone would read it slowly and carefully. 

"After this Jesus went about in Galilee. He would not go about in Judea, because the Jews were seeking to kill him. Now the Jews' Feast of Booths was at hand. So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing.  For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.”  For not even his brothers believed in him. Jesus said to them, “My time has not yet come, but your time is always here.  The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.” After saying this, he remained in Galilee. But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private. The Jews were looking for him at the feast, and saying, “Where is he?” And there was much muttering about him among the people. While some said, “He is a good man,” others said, “No, he is leading the people astray.” Yet for fear of the Jews no one spoke openly of him. About the middle of the feast Jesus went up into the temple and began teaching. The Jews therefore marveled, saying, “How is it that this man has learning, when he has never studied?” So Jesus answered them, “My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me.  If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. The one who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory; but the one who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood. Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?” The crowd answered, “You have a demon! Who is seeking to kill you?” Jesus answered them, “I did one work, and you all marvel at it. Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If on the Sabbath a man receives circumcision, so that the law of Moses may not be broken, are you angry with me because on the Sabbath I made a man's whole body well? Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.” Some of the people of Jerusalem therefore said, “Is not this the man whom they seek to kill? And here he is, speaking openly, and they say nothing to him! Can it be that the authorities really know that this is the Christ?  But we know where this man comes from, and when the Christ appears, no one will know where he comes from.”  So Jesus proclaimed, as he taught in the temple, “You know me, and you know where I come from. But I have not come of my own accord. He who sent me is true, and him you do not know.  I know him, for I come from him, and he sent me.” So they were seeking to arrest him, but no one laid a hand on him, because his hour had not yet come.  Yet many of the people believed in him. They said, “When the Christ appears, will he do more signs than this man has done?”

So I want to point out a few things here. First of all, it doesn't surprise me that Muslims don't believe that Jesus is God. Not even Jesus' own half-brothers believed in Him! Praise God though that at least some of his brothers did eventually believe! The New Testament Book of James was written by Jesus' half-brother James. He writes in verse 1 "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ." What kind of younger brother calls himself a servant of his older brother?

Next, Jesus says that His time has not yet come. Jesus spent 3 years teaching, healing and performing miracles. If He went about declaring who He was, He wouldn't have had enough time to prepare His disciples for carrying on the work of sharing the good news with others. Also, take a look at this passage in Matthew 12:9-21:

"He went on from there and entered their synagogue. And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse him. He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And the man stretched it out, and it was restored, healthy like the other. But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him. Jesus, aware of this, withdrew from there. And many followed him, and he healed them all and ordered them not to make him known. This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet Isaiah: “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen, my beloved with whom my soul is well pleased. I will put my Spirit upon him, and he will proclaim justice to the Gentiles. He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets; a bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not quench until he brings justice to victory; and in his name the Gentiles will hope.”

Pay careful attention to Isaiah's prophecy: "He will not quarrel or cry aloud, nor will anyone hear his voice in the streets; a bruised reed he will not break..." Jesus was intentional about not declaring who He was so that prophecy would be fulfilled!

My last argument that I'll share here is found in Matthew 26:63-64: "But Jesus remained silent. And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Earlier in the same chapter, Jesus reveals that one of His 12 disciples will betray Him. All of His disciples ask if it is them. Then we see verse 25: "Judas, who would betray him, answered, “Is it I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so.”

This phrase "you have said so" is therefore not a denial but a confirmation. Jesus did declare that He is God. Hear this last passage from Matthew 16:13-17: "Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."

Jesus is God. God is one. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. I beg you to ask Allah for understanding in this matter! Thank you for taking the time to read this.

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On 6/7/2020 at 6:22 PM, AkhiraisReal said:

may I ask how the christians in this forum even found this website.

Google.

The answer to your follow up question is also for research; and to the next question, I am on a search for The Truth. The best way to find it is to discuss with those of other viewpoints, to test my ideas.

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On 6/7/2020 at 10:22 AM, AkhiraisReal said:

may I ask how the christians in this forum even found this website.

Not aimed at anyone in particular, but because Evangelicals have a compulsion to "convert" Muslims & cannot respect the fact that you have your own religion, and that this religion (Islam) offers its own logical answers to the great human questions. They cannot and will not tolerate Islam growing while their one of 30,000 denominations shrinks away and evaporates into nothingness.

I came here as a Christian, but I was a UGC (Ukrainian Greek Catholic aka Eastern Rite Catholic) and I came here because I had developed an obsessive interest in Islam, the Kaaba, and wanted to know more about the Shia v Sunni thing because Sunni Islam wasn't something that I wanted to follow. That's how I got here and over the course of four years, ended up realizing that I was actually a Muslim and that's where I am currently.

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On 6/7/2020 at 6:34 PM, THREE1THREE said:

Jesus didn’t want any sort of praise at all, this is a minor praise. Jesus was simply being humble. 

Thanks for your reply. I hope these thoughts are helpful.

There is a world of difference between someone being humble, and that person denying that they are God. If you think Jesus was being humble, that's OK, but he wasn't randomly denying his divinity when no-one had raised the issue.

Again no basis, read from 17 to 20, fulfilling is affirming.

Fulfilling is not affirming. The first is an action completed, the second is an ongoing situation. The Torah had a purpose, and was an essential tool in God's plan, but when Jesus died and was resurrected, it was no longer needed. That's why the Early Church dropped it.

Jesus disciples made sure to spread it through out the Gentiles until all the true followers of Christ...Hebrew and Arabic this expression is used very much, the gosepel was originally preached in Aramaic.

I'm puzzled. I wonder if you could clarify: (i) Was the message delivered to the Gentiles the true message of Jesus (or a fake one?) (ii) Did Paul (not Saul) work with the Romans to eliminate the disciples? (iii) What does Surah Ya-Sin have to do with Jesus? It seems to me about Tawhid, Risala and Akhira. The first and last were around in Judaism before Jesus, and the second refers in Ya-Sin to Muhammad, not mentioning Jesus.

I got technical and it is clearly a literal translation of the word “Allaha” in Aramaic so my argument stands correct and again the gospel was preached originally in Aramaic.

Ho Theos is Greek, the language John's Gospel was written in, and the language of his audience. You can't use the Aramaic equivalent to discuss what John was trying to say when he uses Ho Theos. It's like putting Shakespeare into Google translate French and wondering what the fuss is about.

Those who study Greek for a job disagree which, but either Ho Theos must imply God or only could imply God. Since I don't want to litter this board with too much Greek, it doesn't form part of my argument.

Gospel according to John didn’t intend to show Jesus was God on the contrary. John 17:3-4



“3Now this is eternal life: that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent”“4I have brought You glory on earth by finishing the work You gave me to do”

Precisely. God is One, and we must know Him. And we can know Him, through the acts of Jesus.

As for my interpretation of John 1:, it is definitely correct and has a basis and argument.

John 1 is a rerun of Genesis 1. In Genesis 1, God created the universe. In John 1, Jesus created the universe. Therefore Jesus is God.

Here's the thing.

When John says, “The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it”, he is clearly speaking about Genesis 1 “Let there be light”, but updating it to include what he knew about Jesus “The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us”.

John is obviously not saying that Jesus gave a message which got distorted and wiped out. He is making the astonishing claim that Jesus was the creator, and redeemer of the world. That's what the people who knew Jesus best said about Him.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

Not aimed at anyone in particular, but because Evangelicals have a compulsion to "convert" Muslims & cannot respect the fact that you have your own religion, and that this religion (Islam) offers its own logical answers to the great human questions. They cannot and will not tolerate Islam growing while their one of 30,000 denominations shrinks away and evaporates into nothingness.

I came here as a Christian, but I was a UGC (Ukrainian Greek Catholic aka Eastern Rite Catholic) and I came here because I had developed an obsessive interest in Islam, the Kaaba, and wanted to know more about the Shia v Sunni thing because Sunni Islam wasn't something that I wanted to follow. That's how I got here and over the course of four years, ended up realizing that I was actually a Muslim and that's where I am currently.

Hi!, 

I cannot speak for all of "Christianity," but what I have experienced here at ShiaChat has been an enjoyable experience because (for the most part) I am able to have civilized and respectful dialogue about faith and beliefs. I personally think it's a good thing to have discussions like this between Christians and Muslims.  The alternative is ignoring each other and I don't particularly think that is a good thing.  What's wrong with discussing our beliefs with each other?  Both Christians and Muslims both know that someone coming believe in the other's faith is a potential when we speak and yes, it would be amazing for me if someone wanted to know more about Jesus as Lord, God and Savior.  

The Bible does not teach anything about growing in numbers for the sake of growing in numbers or anything about being competitive in this manner.  In fact, I don't believe I can change a person's heart or mind.  Only God can do this.  The word "convert, " in my opinion, has bad connotations and I don't believe that is my intention here at all.  Jesus calls Christians to share their faith with the world and to engage in conversations, not using trickery, shameful tactics or anything like that.  If someone refuses to believe what we have to say, that's okay.  Jesus calls us to love all people with the love that he showed us, which is an amazing love.  "Convert" sounds like I want to use some type of force or make you believe what I have to say.  That's not my intention and I have seen other Christian responses here and I don't believe that to be their intention either.  Hey, if a friendship comes out of this between me and a Muslim I welcome that!  In addition, the Bible says that following Jesus is "the narrow way," and, although you may not agree, we believe and know that there will be many that reject Jesus.  Many rejected Jesus in his day too and also his followers, even to death.  

So, I want to say that I am hear to share about Jesus, yes, but because I love you and respect you.  If you do not want to write to me, that's ok!  If you don't believe me, that's ok!  We can also discuss our faith respectfully and let the results be up to God.  This exchange of ideas should be celebrated because it can be done in peace and respect.  

I think that this chatroom also desires something like this to happen because they have created categories for different topics, including religions.  They want people to talk and they even mention that people of other faiths are able to be part of this community.  

I hope this makes sense, 

 

God bless you and take care! 

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Nah, I'm not mad at you, I'm telling you because I *was* a Christian up until about a month ago, and I know how the game is played.

Someone questioned why so many Christians are posting here, I threw out my two cents because I come out of Christian culture and call things like I see them. I know from firsthand experience that Christians, particularly American evangelicals, are notoriously bad at accepting that no, not everyone is a Christian and that non-christians are not always open to hearing the sales pitch because they have their own religious traditions, are strong in them, and not being "deceived by satan".



 

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7 minutes ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

Nah, I'm not mad at you, I'm telling you because I *was* a Christian up until about a month ago, and I know how the game is played.

Someone questioned why so many Christians are posting here, I threw out my two cents because I come out of Christian culture and call things like I see them. I know from firsthand experience that Christians, particularly American evangelicals, are notoriously bad at accepting that no, not everyone is a Christian and that non-christians are not always open to hearing the sales pitch because they have their own religious traditions, are strong in them, and not being "deceived by satan".



 

I hear ya, and yeah I know evangelism is not always done right or in a loving way.  I've seen it myself.  If a person wants to listen to you, great!  If not, that's fine too.  What's good about this chatroom is that people don't have to respond to your posts if they don't want to.  Most times people do.  If they don't there is not conversation and if they do there is.  If and when I feel that someone simply wants to debate for the sake of debating, usually I just thank them for engaging and go on.  No use in repeating the same things over and over simply for the sake of debating.  I don't believe any of the Christians on this site know each other.  In fact, when I started I thought I may be the only one.  I see some are from different countries than I am as well.  I'm a firm believer in sharing with whoever would like to listen and if you don't, that's your desire and I respect that.

Thanks for not being mad:) I'm not either

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22 hours ago, Nathan said:

This phrase "you have said so" is therefore not a denial but a confirmation. Jesus did declare that He is God. Hear this last passage from Matthew 16:13-17: "Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven."

Jesus is God. God is one. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. I beg you to ask Allah for understanding in this matter! Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Hi this paragraph contradicts with rest of your  paragraphs because whole of these paragraphs say that he came as representative other one that is in agreement with muslim belief but at conclusion  paragraph you suddenly changed your mind & declared Christian slogan for calling him a God anyway we agree with you until he talked bout betraying to him.

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6 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Thanks for your reply. I hope these thoughts are helpful.

There is a world of difference between someone being humble, and that person denying that they are God. If you think Jesus was being humble, that's OK, but he wasn't randomly denying his divinity when no-one had raised the issue.

Your conclusion rests on assumption and naïveté. You assume that the Gospels and Epistles can be read holistically, that they “complement” one another, that a unified doctrine is present—all to serve one’s “confirmation bias” (circular “verification” of doctrine, which rests on appeal to authority). In reality you are seeking to validate that which you wish to validate. Your trusted elites, the evangelistic “shepherds,” relish this.

The problem is that many evangelicals lack both historical context and knowledge of the original language(s), yet both are intrinsic to understanding the transmission of knowledge. We need to abandon the detritus of time-bound cultural considerations and put ourselves “in the shoes” of the people at the time, taking into account material, intersectional factors such as class, ethnicity, and the role of cult (superstructure) in daily life. Evangelicals commonly assume that the version of the Bible they have, despite being one of many translations, is the “literal Word of God.” Yet historians, linguists, and other elites know that this isn’t the case, but nevertheless seek to compartmentalise their knowledge, thereby maintaining their sway over the ignorant masses. The fact is that there are many manuscripts composed and compiled over millennia, all to the accompaniment of distortion and alteration with the passing of circumstance. The Qur’ān and hadith even admits to this by claiming, both implicitly and explicitly, that Islam seems strange or foreign to all but the tiniest part of humanity—thereby confirming the degree to which the original monotheism, the primordial system or Deen, had been abandoned, altered, and/or discarded over millennia.

6 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Fulfilling is not affirming. The first is an action completed, the second is an ongoing situation. The Torah had a purpose, and was an essential tool in God's plan, but when Jesus died and was resurrected, it was no longer needed. That's why the Early Church dropped it.

Your “knowledge” is anachronistic. You are implying that “the early Church” already had a fixed ecclesiastical-political, institutional, centralised, Romanised hierarchy in place at the time of Jesus. You also assume that the Gospels and Epistles were written and edited by firsthand companions of Jesus and/or his disciples. Both of your assumptions rest on projection. In reality we do not know when Jesus and/or his disciples lived, preached, and died. Neither do the Qur’ān or hadith give hints or suggestions as to just when Jesus and/or his disciples lived on Earth—again highlighting the refreshing honesty of Islam in this matter. In any event, history proves that the alteration and subsequent abandonment of the Semitic Torah was a later development and outgrowth of circumstance, e.g., Hellenistic, syncretic, Imperial (political) matrix, not a reflection of divine revelation. You do know that the Old Testament (Tanakh) affirms the monopoly of Shem on mankind’s salvation, right? Well, the “apostle” Paul was not a Semite, much less a Jew. He was an opportunistic fraud, conman, and Imperial operative who worked to distort the divine message of Jesus and spread deviant theology among deviant people (pagans).

6 hours ago, Leslie P said:

I'm puzzled. I wonder if you could clarify: (i) Was the message delivered to the Gentiles the true message of Jesus (or a fake one?) (ii) Did Paul (not Saul) work with the Romans to eliminate the disciples?

Now you are starting to apply your God-given powers of reason, for the first time thus far. Keep it up. Asking good questions is the first step.

6 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Ho Theos is Greek, the language John's Gospel was written in, and the language of his audience. You can't use the Aramaic equivalent to discuss what John was trying to say when he uses Ho Theos. It's like putting Shakespeare into Google translate French and wondering what the fuss is about.

This is precisely the crux of the matter, which is further illustrated below:

6 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Those who study Greek for a job disagree which, but either Ho Theos must imply God or only could imply God. Since I don't want to litter this board with too much Greek, it doesn't form part of my argument.

You are being ambiguous here, whether deliberately or otherwise. Do you “study Greek for a job”? My guess is no. If so, then you must seriously consider doing so, since knowledge of the original language in its historical context is both essential and indispensable to one’s spiritual growth. That is why Muslims are so careful to ground their praxis in the knowledge of the Qur’ān and hadith in their proper historical and linguistic context. They think, pray, and study in classical Arabic, to not mention related languages and dialects, given the nature of the Islamic civilisation and Muslim ummah.

6 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Precisely. God is One, and we must know Him. And we can know Him, through the acts of Jesus.

Precisely, yet this is not predicated on Jesus’ partaking in the divine essence. All divinely appointed prophets and representatives of (the) God lay similar claims on their followers, who are enjoined to recognise and heed the signs (revelations) of (the) God, including His appointed servants, whether human or otherwise. For example, the ancient Israelites could not claim to obey (the) God except through unconditional obedience to the commands of Moses, His appointed representative over Israel. In fact, Moses, the Messiah/Christ, and other prophetic servants of (the) God were to be treated functionally as “gods” over His chosen/elected (or “called”) people. Yet His “gods’” having a very important, even exalted, role did not make them ontologically part of (the) God, His Being or essence, any more than the signs of the Prophet Muhammad and the Ahl’ al-Bayt made them “divine” in any sense. There were and have been many “sons of (the) God,” among them His prophets, including Adam, the “firstborn” and progenitor of mankind; David and Solomon; Jesus; and others.

6 hours ago, Leslie P said:

John 1 is a rerun of Genesis 1. In Genesis 1, God created the universe. In John 1, Jesus created the universe. Therefore Jesus is God.

Here's the thing.

When John says, “The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it”, he is clearly speaking about Genesis 1 “Let there be light”, but updating it to include what he knew about Jesus “The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us”.

John is obviously not saying that Jesus gave a message which got distorted and wiped out. He is making the astonishing claim that Jesus was the creator, and redeemer of the world. That's what the people who knew Jesus best said about Him.

Again, one would need in-depth knowledge of the linguistics and historical circumstance to make an informed judgment rather than preconception.

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4 hours ago, Leslie P said:

but he wasn't randomly denying his divinity when no-one had raised the issue.

He says only God is good Alone after questioning the questioners minor praise , this incident shows Jesus was not God, and you know it very well. You’re trying very hard to conceal and misinterpret. 

 

4 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Ho Theos is Greek, the language John's Gospel was written in, and the language of his audience. You can't use the Aramaic equivalent to discuss what John was trying to say when he uses Ho Theos.

Yes you can, it is clear as daylight that the Greek copy was translating “Allaha” literally. The Gospel itself was preached originally in Aramaic. 

you yourself know it’s true yet you deny it arrogantly after it has been made clear. 

Ho Theos  means “The God” “Allaha” literally means “The God”  Thoes simply means god and in Aramaic elah/ilah the same in Arabic. 

4 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Precisely. God is One, and we must know Him. And we can know Him, through the acts of Jesus.

You yourself are distinguishing God from Jesus and admit that through God’s Messenger you knew God. 

Jesus was making it clear he was a Messenger and says this is the way to salvation. 

4 hours ago, Leslie P said:

“The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it”

 The light is jesus himself giving guidance and the darkness is misguidance, when Jesus came misguidance didn’t over take him and you can see that when he was being tested by Satan. 

You are taking everything out context do support a baseless doctrine that came in the 4-5th century which is original pagan. 

4 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Was the message delivered to the Gentiles the true message of Jesus (or a fake one?)

It was the true message, the Gentiles back then used to worship idols. Saul the imposter came later on after the disciples had already preached in some areas. 

Surah yasin does talk about jesus’ disciples, their is a English lecture about it.

4 hours ago, Leslie P said:

The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us”.

Like I said the word is God’s expression “Let their be” which is God’s decree. God decreed jesus’ existence at a certain point of time and when it was decreed it became manifest, thus they saw God’s glory which was a great miracle itself. 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Did Paul (not Saul) work with the Romans to eliminate the disciples?

Paul is Saul read scroll down a little and you’ll get ur answer. 

 

5 hours ago, Leslie P said:

Fulfilling is not affirming. The first is an action completed, the second is an ongoing situation. The Torah had a purpose, and was an essential tool in God's plan, but when Jesus died and was resurrected, it was no longer needed. That's why the Early Church dropped it.

That was Paul the imposters teaching which he taught to the church’s. 

Paul’s says in, Galatians 2:16 

16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. 

 

Romans 3:28

28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 

 

Romans 7:1-4

1Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ,”

Over here Paul gave a parable which is clearly implying that the law as been abolished through Christ’s crucifixion thus a person no longer needs to observe the law.

Ephesians 2:14-15

“14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.”

Paul obviously is implying that God’s Law brings hostility when obviously that is not the case otherwise God will be unjust and evil, that is blasphemy. Since Paul believes God’s Law brings hostility he go’s on by saying the law is pretty much abolished through Christ flesh(implying through his crucifixion).

Galatians 5:18 

18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Galatians 5:4

4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

 

Galatians 3:13

13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us

Again Paul is blaspheming God by saying His laws are a curse, God does not burden his servant nor does He put His servants  in a burden, Paul is pretty much implying that through Jesus’ crucifixion the Law was abolished. 

 

Galatians 3:24-25

24So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

 

Did the disciples teach what Paul teached after Jesus’ went up to the heavens???

James 2: 

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

also James 2:8-11

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”  you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

the disciples definitely did preach to hold on to the Law, and fulfilling is affirming and you know it. 

Did Jesus imply to keep God’s to the disciples ? 

John 15:10

“If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.”

Yes! 

Did Jesus command to hold on the Law ? 

Mathew 5:17-20:

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets(unaltered teachings and message); I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 

18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore ANYONE WHO SETS ASIDE ONE OF THE LEAST OF THESE COMMANDS AND TEACHES OTHERS ACCORDINGLY WILL BE CALLED LEAST IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, BUT WHOEVER PRACTICES AND TEACHES THESE COMMANDS WILL BE CALLED GREAT IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN. 

20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the scribes, YOU WILL CERTAINTY not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

 

Mathew 7:

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

jesus most definitely preaches to hold on to the Law, many times. 

Let’s see exactly why Paul the imposter was deceiving. 

First things first is the basis, this is what Saul claims, 

Acts 26

14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,  ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15“Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Now lets see what the law says about dreamers.

Deuteronomy 13

13 If a prophet, or ONE WHO FORETELLS BY DREAMS, APPEARS AMONG YOU and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods”  and let us worship them,” 3 YOU MUST NOT LISTEN TO THE WORDS of that prophet or DREAMER. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or DREAMER must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or DREAMER tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

 

now let’s begin...

Acts 8 

1And Saul approved of their killing him.

 

The Church Persecuted and Scattered

On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.

 

Acts 9 

1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Master’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to, the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 

 

It is clear that Saul(Paul) approved of killing the original followers of Christ whom also called themselves “the Way” Stephen was first martyr. Saul(Paul) threatened the disciples and teamed up with the enemies of Christ against his followers and disciples. He also terrorised the people in the church of God who are the true followers of Christ. Saul(Paul) wanted to wipe out the message of Christ and his followers but they kept on flourishing across the Gentiles. Saul(Paul) couldn’t keep up with them and would have to make a big army in order to compete with them so Saul(Paul) decided to hijack Jesus message  within Christianity and deceive the people by altering the message of Christ about monotheism and adhering to the confirmed reformed law that Christ brought. Saul(Paul) copied the gospel and added his own words to it replacing some words to support his dualism doctrine, and he went on preaching Jesus is the literal Son of God. 

Galatians 1:6-10 

“6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

 

10Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.”

No angel of God from heaven will deceive people, if God wanted to test His people he would send deceivers like Paul, read Deuteronomy 13, it’s either a dreamer (which is Paul) or a false prophet, some people knew Paul was a false disciple of Christ. Paul is desperately trying to win their approval in a clever way and lead them astray from the true path forever which is his main goal.

Acts 9 

“Saul spent several days with the believers in Damascus. 20At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.”

 

Obviously over here Saul(Paul) started his mission to misguide people by preaching Jesus is the literal Son of God which makes jesus another God who is subordinate to God Almighty; which is a dualist doctrine.  Paul(Saul) is obviously trying his hardest to get rid of Jesus’ original message and teachings. that was after staying with believers for a while before he began to hijack the message of Jesus. Let’s go further in Acts 9

26When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Master and that the Master had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus.

 

Obviously over here Saul(Paul) has deceived Barnabas and said that he had preached Christ’s gospel. The disciples knew they couldn’t trust him due to his terrorising attacks but Barnabas convinced them since Saul(Paul) deceived Barnabas that he had a dream about Jesus and speaking to him. 

Paul continued to use his false dream of jesus appointing him to deceive people in to the wrong path. Paul used Jesus’ peaceful approach to deceive and block the people from the true message of Christ.

Acts 26

14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,  ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15“Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

 

Paul used a smart strategy to deceive the people but he was afraid at the same time 

 

Acts 15

Disagreement Between Paul and Barnabas

36Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.” 37Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 38but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 39They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, 40but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord. 41He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

 

Obviously Paul didn’t want to go back with  the apostle Mark,  back to the places that he and Barnabas preached at, and it’s obvious why, because if he did then he would be persecuted eventually after apostle Mark finds out what Paul is preaching behind the apostles and Barnabas. And according to the Law (Deuteronomy 13) he has to be killed since his a false dreamer if they found out.  And the passage mentions that Paul deserted apostle Mark, Paul preached his own beliefs to the people to deceive them after that. 

 

Why was Paul really afraid? And had a sharp argument with Barnabas? 

 

Acts 13 

28Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.

32“We tell you the good news: What God promised our ancestors 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:

“ ‘You are my son;

today I have become your father.’ 

34God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. As God has said,

“ ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’ 

35So it is also stated elsewhere:

“ ‘You will not let your holy one see decay.’ 

 

36“Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. 37But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

 

38“Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

 

Paul claims that Jesus was crucified and buried in a tomb but was raised on the third day and became God’s Son,  Paul misquotes Psalms 2:7 terribly to support his claims that Jesus was raised up to be God’s Son on the third day, and Paul tries to justify his theology by quoting a small portion of Psalms 16:10 and again Paul misquotes the passage again, and then Paul goes on saying that it is through Christ that your sins are forgiven and freed from sin which they were not able to obtain with the Law of Moses. 

 

Now their are many things that are problematic with his claims, his first deception was misquoting the Psalms 2:7 

What does Psalm2:7 say and what is its meaning and about.  Psalms 2:7 ”I will tell of the decree; The LORD said to me, You are My son; and this day have I begotten you.” 

 

What does the expression “Begotten” and “son” mean ?  Here are some examples.

 

The verse in I John 5:1 says, “...Jesus is the Christ is born of God....” This indicates that Jesus was born of God, but was Jesus the only born son of God? Let us look at what the Bible says:

God talking to Moses:

Exodus 4:22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, so said the LORD, “My  firstborn son is Israel”

 

Exodus 4:23 So I say to you, ‘Send out My son so that he will worship Me, but if you refuse to send him out, behold, I am going to slay your firstborn son’”

 

In  Exodus 4:22-23  Israel is respectively, was regarded as the first born son of God. This means that Jesus was not the only born son of God. This means that the word “born” does not mean conception. It’s just a form of expression God used to show the closeness of people to Him.

Finally, there were many other people mentioned in the bible as sons of God, and one of them was Solomon:

 

I Chronicles 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.

 

I Chronicles 22:10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.

 

Also, remember that some of these verses are taken from the Old Testament, and that this book was originally written in Hebrew. Had the word born or son meant born or son in a literal sense then the Jews would have been ahead of everyone else in claiming their literal sonship to God, or in claiming the literal sonship of Solomon to God. The Jews know their language, and they know what son means. They know that the word “son” should not be taken literally.

 

If Jesus is not the only born son of God, then what does begotten or born mean? Should the two words be taken literally? The only way we can justify these words is by looking at the Bible again. In I Peter 1:3 the Bible says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” The word begotten is also used here. God can beget us unto lively hope. Does the word “begotten” here mean conception? No. It is a form of expression. This word means “gave rise to” or “brought”.

 

Also in Job 38:28 the Bible says, “Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?” Can the drops of dew be begotten? No. It’s just a form of expression. Rain does not have a father nor are drops of dew begotten in a literal sense.

 

If we cannot take the word begotten in literal sense with David, the drops of dew, or “us unto a lively hope” then why should we take Jesus as the literal begotten son of God?

 

Finally, in the book Revelation 1:5 says, “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.” Why is it that when Jesus is mentioned as being begotten of God it is taken literally, and when he is mentioned that he is begotten from the dead it is not taken literally? The truth is because the word begotten here does not mean any one could be conceived of the dead; it is a form of expression. The same thing with God, He begets not, and this word “begotten” is only a form of expression.

 

What’s Psalms 2 about since it’s referring to Christ? Let’s see the context.

 

Psalms 2:12

Why have nations gathered and [why do] kingdoms think vain things? 

 

Kings of a land stand up, and nobles take counsel together against the LORD and against His Messiah ? 

 

“Let us break their bands and cast off their cords from us.”

 

He who dwells in heaven laughs(reference to jesus); the LORD mocks them.

 

Then He speaks to them in His wrath; and He frightens them with His sore displeasure.

 

“But I have enthroned My king on Zion, My holy mount.”

 

I will tell of the decree; The LORD said to me, “You are My son(godly servant); this day I have begotten(gave rise to) you. 

 

Request of Me, and I will make nations your inheritance, and the ends of the earth your possession.

 

You shall break them with an Iron rod; like a potter’s vessel you shall shatter them.”

 

And now, [you] kings, be wise; be admonished, [you] Judges of earth.

 

Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with quaking.

 

Arms yourselves with purity lest He becomes angry and you perish in the way; for in a moment His wrath will be kindled; the praise of all who take refuge in Him.

 

 

Obviously this Psalms 2 talks about how the nations and the Pharisees plotted against Jesus, God’s Messiah, and shows how God plotted against them by saving Jesus and raising Jesus to the heavens and Jesus is laughing at them and God mocks them. The passage also talks of future events that will happen when Christ returns. This Psalms is obviously not in Paul’s favour rather Paul is concealing the context of the Psalms 2, now add it up with the next Psalms he mentions. 

 

Paul terribly misquotes Psalms 16:10 to support his beliefs, he concealed other parts of the verse that actually give a context to the verse, what Paul did was take the verse out of context to support his doctrine, the verse does refer to jesus but what is the proper the context of Psalms 16? Lets see...

 

Psalms 16:11

“.....O’God, guard me for I have taken refuge in You. You should should say to the LORD, “You are my Master; my good is not incumbent upon You”

For the  holy ones who are in the earth, and the mighty ones in whom is all my delight.

May the sorrows of those who hasten after another [deity) increase; I will not pour their libations of blood, nor will I take their names upon my lips.

The LORD is my allotted portion and my cup; You guide my destiny.

Portions have fallen to me in pleasant places; even the inheritance pleases me.”

I will bless the LORD, Who concealed me; even at night my conscience instructs me.

I have placed the LORD before me constantly; because [He is] at my right hand, I will not falter.

Therefor, my heart rejoiced, and my soul was glad; even my flesh shall dwell in safety.

For You shall not forsake my soul to the grave; You not allow Your pious ones to see the pit.

You shall let me know the way of life, the fullness of joys in Your presence. There is a pleasantness in Your right hand forever.”

 

Psalms 16 make it clear that Jesus was saved by Jesus escaping from the crucifixion when everything turned dark thus God concealed him and he run to safety and did not face the crucifixion and he, According to the Psalms, spoke against the gentiles who indulged in hanging him on the cross and hurting him whom believe in a false deity and was raised to the heavens. The Psalms also makes it clear that Jesus will not see the grave, it doesn’t weather it’s 1 day 1 month 1 year 1 thousand years or 1 million years the fact that Paul believes Jesus was resurrected from dead on the third day contradicts the clear cut straight forward verse in Psalms 16: “For You shall not forsake my soul to the grave; You not allow Your pious ones to see the pit.”. It is clear that Psalms 16:10 is not in Paul’s favour thus he concealed a part of it, misinterpreted some words and revealed a part of it. 

 

 

Obviously Paul either forgot that Jesus came to fulfil the Law and reform it and he did not come to abolish the law and the message of the prophets(before they got tampered with a bit) or  he is deceiving people like he already did before. Does God forgive other people’s sins if they turn back to Him? Let see what the OT says...

 

II Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face(favours), and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

 

Ecclesiastes 12:13 “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” 

 

I Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

 

Ezekiel 18:20-21

The soul that sins, it shall die, a son shall not bear the sins of the father, and the father shall not bear the sins of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. And if the wicked man repent of all his sins  that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 

 

Also Jesus in Matthew makes it Clear that one must obey the laws to enter heaven and the one who neglects the least of the Law will be least in the heavens. So if that person neglects all the laws then he would be sent to hell 

Mathew 5:18-19. 

 

Mathew 5: 18-19.

18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

 

Is is clear that God forgives people’s sins no matter how much they committed with the condition that they uphold God’s Law and submit to Him. 

 

It is clear that Paul thought it was not wise get Mark the disciple of Christ with him back to were he and Barnabas preached because he taught the opposite of what the disciples of Christ teach, Barnabas and Jesus himself. And that Paul would have to be killed since his a false dreamer if the disciple of Christ found out, according to the law. 

 

Paul in his epistle again tried to deceive people by altering the context of the law to suit his doctrine in Romans 10 

 

1Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

 

5Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”  6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ”  (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ”  (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

 

 

Paul quotes verses from Deuteronomy 30 to the people and gives a small commentary on it. But is his commentary inline with the context of Deuteronomy 30? Let’s see what Deuteronomy 30 says...

 

30:10-14 

When you obey the LORD, your God, to observe His commandments and His statues written in this Torah scroll, [and] when you return to the LORD, your God with all your heart work all your soul.

 

For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor it is far away. 

 

It is not in heaven, that you should say, “who will up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?” 

 

Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, “Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us to fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?” 

 

Rather, [this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it 

 

 

Obviously Paul took the verse out of context to support his false doctrine, the verses speak for themselves as can be seen above, it has nothing to do with Christ nor relates to Christ. Paul then goes ahead and claims that if someone says “Jesus is Lord” and God raised him from the dead he will be saved; but does jesus teach something like that? How does one  inherit eternal life(paradise) ? Let’s see what Jesus says....

 

Mathew 5:17-20:

Fulfilling the Law and prophets 

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets(unaltered teachings and message); I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 

18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the scribes, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

Mark 10:19-23:

 19You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

22At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

 

Matthew 15:

1Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 2“Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”

3Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’ 5But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is ‘devoted to God,’ 6they are not to ‘honor their father or mother’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

 

8“ ‘These people honor me with their lips,

but their hearts are far from me.

9They worship me in vain;

their teachings are merely human rules.’”

 

10Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen and understand. 11What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.”

12Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”

13He replied, “Every plant that my Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. 14Leave them; they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”

15Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.”

16“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17“Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”

 

Mark 12:28-34 : 

The Most important Commandment

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one(wholly).  30Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’  31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’  There is no commandment greater than these.”

32“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one(wholly) and there is no other but Him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

 

It is clear that Jesus taught people to observe the Law to receive paradise, in other words be saved from hell. Thus completely nullifies Paul’s teachings and also proves that Paul is making up his own rules and doctrine to deceive the people, which then causes people not to be saved since they didn’t adhere to the Law. Deuteronomy 30:10-14 actually exposes Paul since in verse 14 it shows a person must fulfil the Law and it’s not hard, it’s in your heart and in your mouth and not somewhere far away, also Jesus makes it clear any teachings that the Lord God has not established will be pull out up by it roots, it is clear that Paul’s teachings have no basis. 

 

 

 

Paul Lying to the Judge ? In acts 24 we see Paul explicitly lying to the judge about his beliefs...

 

10When the governor motioned for him to speak, Paul replied: “I know that for a number of years you have been a judge over this nation; so I gladly make my defense. 11You can easily verify that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. 13And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me. 14However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

 

Acts 24:

5“We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect 6

 

If Paul was really a follower of, the Way, he wouldn’t be contradicting jesus teachings and taking verses out context and the prophets and the Law.

 

If he was really a follower of, the Way then he wouldn’t be a dualist! Because that is not the case in his epistle Philippians 2:5-8

“5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

8And being found in appearance as a man” 

Now in verse 5 Paul is telling the people to have the same mindset as Jesus amongst each other then he continues on in verse by saying 6 “who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” and he go’s in verse 7 by pretty much saying jesus took on a form of a human in appearance of a man. 

In verse 6 Paul says “Who being very nature God” over here Paul believes Jesus to be God but then as we continue on in verse 6 Paul says “did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage”  Now over here Paul is distinguishing Jesus from God but he also believes jesus was also a God beside God but Jesus who is the second God manifested himself in a human form ,as verse 7 shows, so that he is no longer equal to God rather he is limited.

 1 Corinthians 8:6 

“6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”

Paul makes it clear that “the Father” is God not the Son nor The Holy Spirit, Paul didn’t say “there is only one God, the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit” or “there is only one God, the Son”, Paul himself called God “the Father” the same way prophet Daniel and Ezra call God “Allah”. 

Ephesians 1:3

“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus. 

Colossians 1:3

“3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

It is clear by now that Paul is a dualist and preached dualism, Now this is obviously a heresy since Jesus is a God beside God, despite jesus manifesting himself in a human form because in nature he is a God beside God except he is a limited God beside God. This is obviously not Monotheism at all and contradicts the Law and the prophets. So if the trinitarians try to use Paul’s epistles to show the trinity then they have to believe there are either two Gods or three Gods since Paul believes Jesus was a God beside God but he(jesus) limited himself so he is no longer equal to God by not being subordinate to God.

 

John:14:6

6Jesus answered, “I am, the Way; and [the] truth and the [way to] [eternal] life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”

Jesus first addresses himself to be one those who belong to the sect called “the Way” then says his the truth and the way to enteral life(paradise) and it is except through Christ whom the truth is with and enteral life(paradise), can stand before the LORD well pleasing and pleased. If Paul was really from the, the Way, sect then he would believe there is only one God and  no other, not another god beside God aswell that takes on a form of a human. 

 

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10 hours ago, Leslie P said:

when Jesus died and was resurrected,

Jesus was not crucified nor was he buried. 

Heres how the incident can be reconstructed from the gospel. 

Isho Prays on the Mount of Olives

1Then, accompanied by the disciples, Isho left the upstairs room and went as usual to the Mount of Olives. 2There he told them, “Pray that you will not give in to temptation.”

3He walked away, about a stone’s throw, and knelt down with his face to the ground and prayed, 4“Allaha, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want Your will to be done, not mine.” 5Then an angel from heaven appeared and strengthened him. 6He prayed more fervently, and he was in such agony of spirit that his sweat fell to the ground like great drops of blood. (Psalms 34:6-8)-(Psalms 28:1-8)

 

7At last he stood up again and returned to the disciples, only to find them asleep, exhausted from grief. 8“Why are you sleeping?” he asked them. “Get up and pray, so that you will not give in to temptation.”

 

 

                          Evangel 

 

 

Isho Arrested

1When he had finished praying, Isho left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley. On the other side there was a garden, and he and his disciples went into it.

 

2Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Isho had often met there with his disciples. 3So Judas came to the garden, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and the Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.

 

4Isho, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?”

 

5“Isho al-Nosari,” they replied.

 

“I am he,” Isho said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6When Isho said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

 

7Again he asked them, “Who is it you want?”

 

“Isho al-Nosari,” they said.

 

8Isho answered, “I told you that I am he. If you are looking for me, then let these men go.” 9This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: “I have not lost one of those you gave me.” 

10Then Shimon Butrus, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant’s name was Malchus.)

 

11But Isho said, “No more of this.” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

 

12Then Isho spoke to the leading priests, the captains of the Temple guard, and the elders who had come for him. “Am I some dangerous revolutionary,” he asked, “that you come with swords and clubs to arrest me? 13Why didn’t you arrest me in the Temple? I was there every day. But this is your moment, the time when the power of darkness reigns.”

 

 

14Then the detachment of soldiers with its commander and the Jewish officials arrested Isho. They bound him 15and brought him first to Annas, who was the father-in-law of Caiaphas, the high priest that year.16Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jewish leaders that it would be good if one man died for the people.

 

17Shimon Butrus and another disciple were following Isho. Because this disciple was known to the high priest, he went with Isho into the high priest’s courtyard, 18but Peter had to wait outside at the door. The other disciple, who was known to the high priest, came back, spoke to the servant girl on duty there and brought Peter in.

 

19“You aren’t one of this man’s disciples too, are you?” she asked Peter.

 

He replied, “I am not.”

 

20It was cold, and the servants and officials stood around a fire they had made to keep warm. Peter also was standing with them, warming himself.

 

The High Priest Questions Isho

21Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Isho about his disciples and his teaching.

 

22“I have spoken openly to the world,” Isho replied. “I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. 23Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said.”

 

24When Isho said this, one of the officials nearby slapped him in the face. “Is this the way you answer the high priest?” he demanded.

 

25“If I said something wrong,” Isho replied, “testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?”

 

26Then Annas sent him bound to Caiaphas the high priest.

 

27Meanwhile, Shimon Butrus was still standing there warming himself. So they asked him, “You aren’t one of his disciples too, are you?”

 

He denied it, saying, “I am not.”

 

28One of the high priest’s servants, a relative of the man whose ear Peter had cut off, challenged him, “Didn’t I see you with him in the garden?” 29Again Butrus denied it, and at that moment the Master turned and looked straight at Butrus 30And Butrus left the courtyard, weeping bitterly.

 

 

Isho before the Council

31At daybreak all the elders of the people assembled, including the leading priests and the teachers of religious law. Isho was led before their Sanhedrin., 32and they said, “Tell us, are you the Messiah?”

 

But he replied, “If I tell you, you won’t believe me. 33And if I ask you a question, you won’t answer. 34But from now on the Son of Man will be seated in the place of power at Allaha’s right hand.g”

 

34They all shouted, “So, are you claiming to be the Son of God?”

 

And he(Isho) replied, “You say that I am.”

 

(Psalms 109:2)

 

35“Why do we need other witnesses?” they said. “We ourselves heard him say it.”

 

                         

                        Evangel 

 

 

Isho Before Pilate

1Then the Jewish leaders took Isho from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover. 2So Pilate came out to them and asked, “What charges are you bringing against this man?”

3“If he were not a criminal,” they replied, “we would not have handed him over to you.”

4Pilate said, “Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law.”

“But we have no right to execute anyone,” they objected. 

5Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Isho and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?”

“You have said so,” Isho replied.

6When he was accused by the chief priests and the elders, he gave no answer.7Then Pilate asked him, “Don’t you hear the testimony they are bringing against you?” 8But Isho made no reply, not even to a single charge—to the great amazement of the governor.

9Now it was the governor’s custom at the festival to release a prisoner chosen by the crowd. 10At that time they had a well-known prisoner whose name was Isho Barabbas. 11So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them, “Which one do you want me to release to you: Isho Barabbas, or Isho who is called the Messiah?” 12For he knew it was out of self-interest that they had handed Isho over to him.

13While Pilate was sitting on the judge’s seat, his wife sent him this message: “Don’t have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him.”

14But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Isho executed.

15“Which of the two do you want me to release to you?” asked the governor.

“Barabbas,” they answered. 

16“What shall I do, then, with Isho who is called the Messiah?” Pilate asked.

They all answered, “Crucify him!”

17“Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.

But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

18When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

19All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”

 

Isho Sentenced to Be Crucified

20Then Pilate took Isho and had him flogged. 21The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe 22and went up to him again and again, saying, “Hail, king of the Jews!” And they slapped him in the face.

23Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews gathered there, “Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him.” 24When Isho came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, Pilate said to them, “Here is the man!”

26As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, “Crucify! Crucify!”

But Pilate answered, “You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him.”

27The Jewish leaders insisted, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of Allaha.” (psalms 109:2-5) 

28When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 29and he went back inside the palace. “Where do you come from?” he asked Isho, but Isho gave him no answer. 30“Do you refuse to speak to me?” Pilate said. “Don’t you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?”

31Isho answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from the Most High. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

32From then on, Pilate tried to set Isho free, but the Jewish leaders kept shouting, “If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar.”

33When Pilate heard this, he brought Isho out and sat down on the judge’s seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 34It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.

“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.

35But they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!”

“Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.

“We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.

36Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.

37As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Shimon, and they forced him to carry the cross. 38They came to a place called Golgotha (which means “the place of the skull”). 39There they offered him vinegar to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. 40When they had hanged him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.-(Pslams 22:18) 41And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. 42Above his head they placed the written charge against him: ISHO AL NOSARI, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

 

43Two rebels were hanged with him, one on his right and one on his left. 44Those who passed by hurled insults at him, shaking their heads (Pslams 109:25-31) 45and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, come down from the cross and save yourself! ,  46In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 47“He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the king of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will believe in him. 48He trusts in Allaha.-(psalms 22:6-8) Let Allaha rescue him now if He wants him. 49In the same way the rebels who were crucified with him also heaped insults on him.(Psalms 142:4-6)

 

  50It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 51for the sun stopped shining, Isho cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”. (Psalms 22:1-32)-(Pslams 16:1-11)

52When some of those standing near heard this, they said, “Listen, he’s calling Elyae(Elias).”

53Immediately one of them ran and got a sponge. He filled it with vinegar and gall, put it on a staff, and offered it to Isho to drink. 54The rest said, “Now leave him alone. Let’s see if Elyae(Elias) comes to save him.”

55And when Isho had cried out again in a loud voice, he said: “Allaha, into Your hands I entrust my spirit.”(Psalms 31:1-9)

56At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 57and the tombs broke open. 

58The centurion, seeing what had happened, praised Allaha and said, “Surely this was a righteous man.” 59When all the people who had gathered to witness this sight saw what took place, they beat their breasts and went away. 60But all those who knew him, including the women who had followed him from Galilee, stood at a distance, watching these things. 

 

Isho’s substitute and testimony 

61Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 62The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Isho, and then those of the other. 63But when they came to Isho and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 64Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Isho’s(substitute) side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 65The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 66These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken, (Palms 34:17-22)-(Psalms 28:8) 

 

 

                       Evangel 

 

1It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, 2Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus’ body. 3Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 4When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph. 5So Joseph bought some linen cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. 

 

6The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. 7“Sir,” they said, “we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, ‘On the third day I will rise.’ 8So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first.”

9“Take a guard,” Pilate answered. “Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how.” 10So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard.

 

Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene

11Now Maryam stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Isho’s body(substitute) has been laid, one at the head and the other at the foot.

13They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”

“They have taken my master away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.”(Psalms 91:8)-(Psalms 16:10-11) 14At this, she turned around and saw Isho standing there, but she did not realize that it was Isho.

15He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him”

16Isho said to her, “Maryam”

She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).

17Isho said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to Allaha. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my God and your God.’ ”

18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the master!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.

 

Isho appears to the disciples

when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, 19While they were still talking about this, Isho himself stood among them and said to them, “Shlama alaykhu.”

 

20They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 21He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 21Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

 

23When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 24And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” 25They gave him a piece of broiled fish and honeycomb, 26and he took it and ate it in their presence.

27He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moshe, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

28Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 29He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise on the third day.” 30And Isho said: “Shlama Alaykhu! Just as Allaha has sent me, I am sending you. 31You are witnesses of these things. 32I am going to send you what my LORD has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power(holy spirit) from the Most High.”

33Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Master, are you at this time going to restore the covenant to Israel?”

34He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates Allaha has set by His own authority. 35But you will receive power when the holy spirit comes in you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

36After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

37They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 38“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Isho, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”-(Pslams 91:14-16)

it is clear that their are prophecies of jesus being saved.  

How did Jesus escape? 

“50It was now about noon, and darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon, 51for the sun stopped shining, Isho cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?”. (Psalms 22:1-32)-(Pslams 16:1-11)” 

 

when cried out “Eli Eli lema sabachtani” the sun stopped shining it became dark and then jesus cried out again, 

 

“55And when Isho had cried out again in a loud voice, he said: “Allaha, into Your hands I entrust my spirit.”(Psalms 31:1-9)

56At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 57and the tombs broke open.” 

When jesus said “Allah into your hands I entrust my spirit” a mini earth quake happened this was distraction while it was dark at the same time when this happened for a moment jesus at this moment took advantage and escaped from the cross. The Pslams shows that God would conceal him in the dark, 

Pslams 16:7-11

“I will bless the LORD, Who concealed me; even at night my conscience instructs me.

I have placed the LORD before me constantly; because [He is] at my right hand, I will not falter.

Therefor, my heart rejoiced, and my soul was glad; even my flesh shall dwell in safety.

For You shall not forsake my soul to the grave; You not allow Your pious ones to see the pit.

You shall let me know the way of life, the fullness of joys in Your presence. There is a pleasantness in Your right hand forever.”

 Also in

Pslams 138:

“Of David. I shall thank You with all my heart; before the princes I shall sing Your praises.

2I shall prostrate myself toward Your holy Temple, and I shall give thanks to Your name for Your kindness and for Your truth, for You magnified Your word over all Your names.

3On the day that I called and You answered me; You made me great, [putting] strength into my soul.

4O Lord, all the kings of the earth will acknowledge You, for they heard the words of Your mouth.

5And they will sing of the ways of the Lord, for great is the glory of the Lord.

6For the Lord is high but He sees the lowly, and He chastises the haughty from afar.

7If I walk in the midst of distress, You revive me; against the wrath of my enemies, You stretch forth Your hand and Your right hand saves me.

8May the Lord agree with me; O Lord, may Your kindness be eternal. Do not let go of the works of Your hands.”

and 

Pslams 41:

“1For the conductor, a song of David.

2Praiseworthy is he who looks after the poor; on a day of calamity the Lord will rescue him.

3The Lord will preserve him and keep him alive, and he will be praised in the land, and You will not deliver him into the desire of his enemies.

4The Lord will support him on his sickbed; when You have transformed his entire restfulness in his illness.

5I said, "O Lord, be gracious to me; heal my soul because I have sinned against You."

6My enemies speak evil of me; "When will he die and his name be lost?"

7And if he comes to see [me], he speaks falsely; his heart gathers iniquity for him; when he goes outside, he talks.

8All my enemies whisper together about me; concerning me, they think evil.

9"An evil thing shall be poured into him, and once he lies down, he will no longer rise."

10Even my ally, in whom I trusted, who eats my bread, developed an ambush for me.

11But You, O Lord, be gracious to me and raise me up, so that I may repay them.

12With this I shall know that You desired me, when my enemy does not shout joyfully over me.

13As for me, because of my innocence You shall support me, and stand me up before You forever.

14Blessed is the Lord, the God of Israel from all times past and to all times to come. Amen and amen.”

And also 

Pslams 91:

“1He who dwells in the covert of the Most High will lodge in the shadow of the Almighty.

2I shall say of the Lord [that He is] my shelter and my fortress, my God in Whom I trust.

3For He will save you from the snare that traps from the devastating pestilence.

4With His wing He will cover you, and under His wings you will take refuge; His truth is an encompassing shield.

5You will not fear the fright of night, the arrow that flies by day;

6Pestilence that prowls in darkness, destruction that ravages at noon.

7A thousand will be stationed at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand; but it will not approach you.

8You will but gaze with your eyes, and you will see the annihilation of the wicked.

9For you [said], "The Lord is my refuge"; the Most High you made your dwelling.

10No harm will befall you, nor will a plague draw near to your tent.

11For He will command His angels on your behalf to guard you in all your ways.

12On [their] hands they will bear you, lest your foot stumble on a stone.

13On a young lion and a cobra you will tread; you will trample the young lion and the serpent.

14For he yearns for Me, and I shall rescue him; I shall fortify him because he knows My name.

15He will call Me and I shall answer him; I am with him in distress; I shall rescue him and I shall honor him.

16With length of days I shall satiate him, and I shall show him My salvation.”

And also 

Psalms 31:

“1To the conductor, a song of David.

2I took refuge in You, O Lord; let me not be shamed forever; rescue me with Your righteousness.

3Incline Your ear to me, quickly rescue me; be a rock of strength to me, a stronghold to save me.

4For You are my Rock and my Stronghold, and for Your name's sake, You shall lead me and guide me.

5You shall free me from this net which they have hidden for me, for You are my stronghold.

6In Your hand I entrust my spirit; You have redeemed me, O Lord, God of truth.

7I hated those who await worthless vanities, but I hoped for the Lord.

8I will exult and rejoice in Your kindness, for You have seen my affliction; You have known the troubles of my soul.

9And you did not deliver me into the hands of an enemy; You have placed my feet in a broad place.

10Be gracious to me, O Lord, for I am in distress; my eye is dimmed from anger, my soul and my belly.

11For my life is spent in grief and my years in sighing; my strength has failed because of my iniquity, and my bones have decayed.

12From all my tormentors I have become a reproach-and very much so to my neighbors-and fright to my acquaintances; those who see me outside avoid me.

13I was forgotten like a dead person, out of mind; I was like a lost utensil.

14For I heard the gossip of many, terror from all sides when they take counsel together against me; they plotted to take my soul.

15But I trusted in You, O Lord; I said, "You are my God."

16My times are in Your hands; rescue me from the hands of my enemies and from my pursuers.

17Cause Your countenance to shine upon Your servant; save me with Your kindness.

18O Lord, let me not be shamed because I called out to You; let the wicked be shamed, let them be silenced to the grave.

19Let lying lips become mute, those that speak against a righteous man falsely, with haughtiness and disdain.

20How great is Your goodness that You have laid away for those who fear You, that You have worked for those who take refuge in You, in the presence of the sons of men!

21You shall hide them in the secrecy of Your countenance, from bands of men; protect them in a shelter from the strife of tongues.

22Blessed is the Lord for He has been wondrously kind to me in a besieged city.

23But I said in my haste, "I have been cut off from before Your eyes," but You heard the voice of my supplications when I cried out to You.

24Love the Lord, all His pious ones. The Lord guards those who believe [in Him] and He pays with a bowstring him who works with haughtiness.

25Strengthen yourselves, and He will give your heart courage, all who hope to the Lord.”

their are many prophecies regarding Jesus being saved in the Pslams. 

After Jesus had escaped he was pretending to be a gardner so he doesn’t get caught and he witness the wicked person get crucified in the place of Chris as the Pslams prophecies such as Pslams 91:8 jesus will see wicked get annihlated, also In another Psalms concerning Jesus Pslams 34:22 it points out that evil well kill the wicked so it is clear that God made them kill their own instead of jesus himself.

“Evil will kill the wicked, and those who hate the righteous shall be accounted guilty.” 

 

“11Now Maryam stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Isho’s body(substitute) has been laid, one at the head and the other at the foot.

13They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”

“They have taken my master away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.”(Psalms 91:8)-(Psalms 16:10-11) 14At this, she turned around and saw Isho standing there, but she did not realize that it was Isho.

15He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him”

16Isho said to her, “Maryam”

She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).”

when Maryam came to see the tomb ,as she thought jesus was dead, she looked found some else for the Pilate sent some to guard the tomb and seal it and she tells the angels, “They have taken my master away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.”  After they had asked her why is she crying. Now while she said this she turned around Jesus asks her why is she crying and who is she looking for but Maryam did not recognise him she though he was just some gardner until jesus says her name and she recognises that Jesus was taking to her. Now you’re wondering how can God make some else take the form of Jesus ? The answer is simple, God was able to perfect jesus’ beauty for a while in the transfiguration when Jesus and the disciples meet Elijah and Moses so if God can do that then God can also make some else look like Jesus for a while. So when Maryam saw jesus on the third day, which was on sabbath, she went on to tell the disciples and Jesus met with disciples then from their the angels took him up to paradise as the Pslams 34 shows. And also Psalms 2.  The Pslams tells us of events that are not mentioned in the gospel and also the Pslams has many prophecies regarding Jesus being saved. 

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Arrogance of some people in this thread, even Paul the imposter admits jesus was praying to be saved and he was heard. 

Hebrews 5:7

”7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the One who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.”

 

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32 minutes ago, THREE1THREE said:

Arrogance of some people in this thread

...as well as naïveté and stupidity, to be blunt, on the part of people who believe they can “convince” evangelicals to revert.

Basic advice for life 101: the enemy does not respect a man whose gullibility disproves his manhood. This goes for all sides.

As far as Trinitarianism and Christian “orthodoxy” are concerned: a religion whose defence necessitates sin is bankrupt.

Pro-Establishment Christianity and (the) God’s standard of morality “mix” as well as oil and water. Even some atheists get it.

This thread alone is a compendium of evidence—of men’s immaturity and childishness trumping reason and righteousness.

And at the end of the day, all Christians can come up with is some whininess about “da Jooz/Mooslimes fault” and “legalism.”

Misguidance, sorcery, and jinni-possession can work “wonders” among some men. Well, maybe many more than just some.

Edited by Northwest

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