Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Nathan

Was Jesus a Liar or a Madman?

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

12 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Yes, "Son of God" is used metaphorically in the Bible.  That's why when it is used of Jesus it has no sexual or reproductional connotations.  God forbid that God should have sex with Mary and produce a son - what a blasphemy!!!!  Does anyone think that Christians would insult God that much by believing such heresy - I hope not!!!

Hi  this idea came from Egyptian & Greek Gods & Goddes stories specially storiesof Osiris & Zeus to justify lady Mary (sa)  pregnancy without having relationship with any man that holy Quran responded to both christian & Jews that creation of Jesus [prophet Isa(as)] was like creation of prophet Adam (عليه السلام) 

Quote

Then carrying him she brought him to her people. They said, ‘O Mary, you have certainly come up with an odd thing! (27) O sister of Aaron[’s lineage]! Your father was not an evil man, nor was your mother unchaste.’ (28) Thereat she pointed to him. They said, ‘How can we speak to one who is yet a baby in the cradle?’ (29) He said, ‘Indeed I am a servant of Allah! He has given me the Book and made me a prophet. (30) He has made me blessed, wherever I may be, and He has enjoined me to [maintain] the prayer and to [pay] the zakat as long as I live, (31) and to be good to my mother, and He has not made me self-willed and wretched. (32) Peace to me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I am raised alive.’ (33) That is Jesus, son of Mary, a Word of the Real concerning whom they are in doubt. (34) It is not for Allah to take a son. Immaculate is He! When He decides on a matter, He just says to it, ‘Be!’ and it is. (35) [And Jesus said,] ‘Indeed Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him. This is a straight path.’ (36) But the factions differed among themselves. So woe to the faithless at the scene of a tremendous day. (37) How well they will hear and how well they will see on the day when they come to Us! But today the wrongdoers are in manifest error. (38)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/19:26

 

in shia viewpoint  "Son of man" is Imam Mahdi (aj) also we have few narration of his travelling by clouds 

Son of Man 

‏‪Son of Man‬‏:‏ https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXU7w5ENk8aXhNMkaFz-DsvHMHlOe2b8Q

Imam Mahdi ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) in Other Religions and Nations

https://islampfr.com/imam-mahdi-(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)-in-other-religions-and-nations/

Shia beliefs in the Bible

https://en.shafaqna.com/56237/shia-beliefs-bible/

Quote

Who was Jesus if not the literal son of God?
According to the Bible in Matthew 21:11 “And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee.” This was Jesus. He was a prophet of God. He was sent like other prophets to deliver the message of his ONE and only ONE God (glory be to Him). Also, in Luke 24:19 the Bible says “And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people.”.....

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/closer-look-christianity-mohamed-qasem

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest
15 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

God can be both limited and unlimited

So you’re saying God is omnipresent and at the exact same time not omnipresent, Omniscient and at the exact same time not Omniscient, omnipotent and at the exact same time not omnipotent, do you realise how silly that sounds ?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

@Dave follower of The Way

“God can be both limited and unlimited”

so you’re saying God is omnipresent and at the same time not omnipresent, Omniscient and not Omniscient at the exact same time, omnipotent and at the exact same time not omnipotent, do you realise how silly that sounds? 

 

“God in Trinity is one God who in Christ chose to humble himself and become limited, while at the same time in his unlimited power and majesty kept the universe existing by the word of his power.”

 

This teaching of yours has absolutely zero biblical basis, Paul believes Jesus had a God  

Ephesians 1:3

“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus. 

Colossians 1:3

“3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

Philippians 2:5-7

5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

Now in verse 5 Paul is telling the people to have the same mindset as Jesus amongst each other then he continues on in verse by saying 6 “who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” and he go’s in verse 7 by pretty much saying jesus took on a form of a human. 

In verse 6 Paul says “Who being very nature God” over here Paul believes Jesus to be God but then as we continue on in verse 6 Paul says “did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage”  Now over here Paul is distinguishing Jesus from God but he also believes jesus was also God beside God but Jesus who is the second God manifested himself in a human form ,as verse 7 shows, so that he is no longer equal to God rather he is limited. 

Now this is obviously a heresy and dualism since Jesus is a God beside God, despite jesus manifesting himself in a human form because in nature he is a God beside God except he is a limited God beside God. This is obviously not Monotheism at all and contradicts the Law and the prophets. So if the trinitarians try to use Paul’s epistles to show the trinity then they have to believe there are either two Gods or three Gods since Paul believes Jesus was a God beside God but he limited himself so he is no longer equal to God by not being Almighty like God.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

This verse could equally be interpreted to say "You called me good and that I am so you must be acknowledging me as God"

Very flawed argument, jesus didn’t consider himself to be good enough to be called “‘Good’ teacher”, jesus was humbling himself.  

John 10:27-39 what part of the context do you not understand ? 

Its guest guest btw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

think Jesus Calling himself "Son of Man" is a greater claim to deity than the term "Son of God"

The term Son of Man is an idiom for i am human, every Hebrew speaking Jew knows this. Prophets with really powerful miracles where called the “SON OF MAN” to make it clear to the people that this prophet is a human like you not divine. Prophet Ezekiel had the title and was called the Son of man. 

In Numbers 23:19 some of your Christian bibles translates the idiom “Son of man” as “human” because that’s what the idiom means they explain the idiom instead of translating it. 

And in Mark 10:17-18 if jesus was God,which you tried to alter the context, then he wouldn’t say “why do you call me Good?, only God is good alone” I already explained why he said “why do you call me Good” in my other post.  This verse clearly shows Jesus is not God since he says only God is good alone. If he was God he wouldn’t say Only God is good alone. 

16 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.

 The Jews took the part “sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One” literally the same way they took “I and the Father are one” literally. The Jews tried very hard to accuse Jesus of blasphemy. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi  this idea came from Egyptian & Greek Gods & Goddes stories specially storiesof Osiris & Zeus to justify lady Mary (sa)  pregnancy without having relationship with any man that holy Quran responded to both christian & Jews that creation of Jesus [prophet Isa(as)] was like creation of prophet Adam (عليه السلام) 

Hi There Ashvazdanghe - You have made an interesting point.  It is clearly in response to the stories of Greek, Roman, Egyptian gods and their actions that the Bible is so clear that Jesus' birth was a supernatural event with out any sexual involvement by God.  Injil Luke chapter 1

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

The account in the Qur'an also mentions the Spirit coming to Mary

Sura Al Anbiya 21:91  And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit (مِنْ رُوحِنَا) and made her and her son a sign for the nations.

It is interesting that the Qur'an likens in some way Jesus and Adam

Al Imran Sura 3:59  Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

This verse (Maybe you can help me) "He created Him from dust" must be a reference to Adam.  Both the Bible and the Qur'an talk about Adam being made from the dust of the ground but the verses we have seen above Jesus was conceived in Mary through a miraculous work of God's Holy Spirit.  It was God's word "Be" that brought life to Adam so the verse is continuing a reference to the creation of Adam.  It was also God's word that came into Mary and Jesus was conceived.

I wonder if we could continue to think about this link between Adam and Jesus?

Adam was the first man a representative of us all as our first ancestor.  He listened to the whisperings of satan and eat from the fruit that God had told he not to eat of.  In this way we are like Adam and listen to satans whisperings and do things that God has told us are wrong.  So in this way Adam is not only our physical ancestor but our spiritual ancestor too.

Jesus (like Adam) had a supernatural birth (though of a different kind) so Jesus too comes as a first ancestor, a representative. Almost like a second Adam. When satan whispered to Jesus, we see that Jesus resisted the temptations and obeyed God rather than satan.  See Luke chapter 4

5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”  8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”

So Jesus offers a new ancestry.  One where his followers don't have to listen to satan. Those who are "descendants" of the second Adam Jesus join with him and have his power to resist temptation.

I know I want to follow the second Adam - the powerful one who was strong enough to say no to satan and wants to pass that power on to his followers.  There are many who are content to stay as decendants of the weak first Adam - the one who could not resist satan, and therefore those who follow him do not have power to say no to temptation. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Hi There Ashvazdanghe - You have made an interesting point.  It is clearly in response to the stories of Greek, Roman, Egyptian gods and their actions that the Bible is so clear that Jesus' birth was a supernatural event with out any sexual involvement by God.  Injil Luke chapter 1

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

The account in the Qur'an also mentions the Spirit coming to Mary

Sura Al Anbiya 21:91  And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit (مِنْ رُوحِنَا) and made her and her son a sign for the nations.

It is interesting that the Qur'an likens in some way Jesus and Adam

Al Imran Sura 3:59  Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

This verse (Maybe you can help me) "He created Him from dust" must be a reference to Adam.  Both the Bible and the Qur'an talk about Adam being made from the dust of the ground but the verses we have seen above Jesus was conceived in Mary through a miraculous work of God's Holy Spirit.  It was God's word "Be" that brought life to Adam so the verse is continuing a reference to the creation of Adam.  It was also God's word that came into Mary and Jesus was conceived.

I wonder if we could continue to think about this link between Adam and Jesus?

Adam was the first man a representative of us all as our first ancestor.  He listened to the whisperings of satan and eat from the fruit that God had told he not to eat of.  In this way we are like Adam and listen to satans whisperings and do things that God has told us are wrong.  So in this way Adam is not only our physical ancestor but our spiritual ancestor too.

Jesus (like Adam) had a supernatural birth (though of a different kind) so Jesus too comes as a first ancestor, a representative. Almost like a second Adam. When satan whispered to Jesus, we see that Jesus resisted the temptations and obeyed God rather than satan.  See Luke chapter 4

5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”  8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”

So Jesus offers a new ancestry.  One where his followers don't have to listen to satan. Those who are "descendants" of the second Adam Jesus join with him and have his power to resist temptation.

I know I want to follow the second Adam - the powerful one who was strong enough to say no to satan and wants to pass that power on to his followers.  There are many who are content to stay as decendants of the weak first Adam - the one who could not resist satan, and therefore those who follow him do not have power to say no to temptation. 

John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the word and the word was with Ho Theos and the word was theos. It was with Ho Theos in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that had been made. 

The “him” part in John1:1-3 can legitimately be translated as “it” and not “him” the only reason why it has “him” and not “it” is because trinitarians believe the word is jesus and the word is God thus it should be “him” not “it”. Now the trinitarians have done a big blasphemy on this passage and here’s why, when the passage says “and the word was with God”, the word “God” over here in Greek is “Ho Theos” which means “The God” which is a direct reference to the only one true God, in Aramaic it would be “Allaha” and in Arabic “Allah” the term “Ho Theos” translates the word “Allaha” literally. Then after that passage it says “and the word was theos” now the word “theos” over here can have many meanings to it, it can refer to kings, chiefs, judges or even refer to false gods and also mean divine. The proper translation of this part of the passage is “divine” then the next passage says “it was with God in the beginning” now the  word “God” in this passage in Greek is “Ho Thoes” referring to the one true God. Now if the word was God then it would say “Ho theos” instead of just “theos”,  the word “theos” can have many meanings if the gospel of John intended to show jesus is God the it would blatantly say “and the word was Ho theos” which is not the case.  Now a question arises what are these passages really talking about ? Here’s a long answer.

John 1:1-3

“1In the beginning was the word(Let their be) and the word(Let their be) was with God and the word(Let their Be) was divine. 2It was with God in the beginning. 3Through it all things were made; without it nothing was made that had been made.”

 

John 1:1 is actually referring back to the book of Genesis when God uses the expression “Let their Be” to bring the existence of the earth and what’s in it. The term “Let their Be” is a expression of God’s decree(command). 

 

When it says “the word was with God” what it’s actually saying is that the expression of “Let their Be”

,Which is the decree, was in God’s foreknowledge, God had already willed to create the heavens and earth and has also created a decree for it to be decreed at certain point of time. That decree and will was already in God’s foreknowledge, thus it says “it was with God in the beginning”. 

 

And when the passage in John1:1 that says “and the word was divine” what’s its pretty much conveying, is that the word( i.e the decree) is from God, it was a divine order. 

 

John 1:3 should be easy by now and it pretty much shows that, without God’s decree and will, nothing that has been made would be made. 

 

Now John1:4-5 is actually a pretty easy part now since we know the proper interpretation of John1:1-3. 

 

John1:4-5

4In it(the word) was life, and that life was the light(guide) of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. 

 

Over here when it says “in it(i.e the word) was life” that life is jesus himself, jesus was also in God’s foreknowledge and part of God’s will and decree but was appointed at a certain point of time in this case, and the the passage says “and that life was the light of all mankind” the passage shows that Jesus was the light(meaning the guide) of all mankind, this passage shows that Jesus came to bring guidance and bring people to a righteous path and adhere to the radical monotheism which the prophets and Messengers before him taught to their own people and across other countries. 

 

In John1:14 when it says “and the word became flesh” this verse is showing that God’s decree was decreed and it was manifested thus it became flesh. If you put  this verse between verse 9 and 10 you will fully understand the verse aswell and what it’s conveying. 

 

John 1:6-14

6There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to bear witness about the light(Messenger), that all might believe through him. 8He was not the light(Messenger); but came to bear witness about the light(Messenger). 

9The true light(Messenger) that gives light(guidance) to everyone was coming into the world. 10It(the word) was in the world and, though the world was made through it(the word) the world did not recognise it(the word). 11He went to his own people, and his own people did not accept him. 12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to be godly servants of God 13They are reborn—not because of natural decent nor of the desire or will of mankind, but reborn for God.

14The word became flesh and made its dwelling among us. We have seen it’s glory, the glory of the LORD’s one and only Messenger.

That’s term “son of God” in Jewish traditions and shown in the OT is metaphor referring to godly prophets and Messengers who are close to God spiritually and chosen by God to convey a message from God. The term “son” used in verse john 1 verse 14 is added by the pagans since they believed in the Greek methodology and other pagan beliefs. 

If you read my article on the trinity then you wouldn’t have so much trouble with Quranic verse you’re quoting, it’s petty much showing that Jesus was created the same way Adam created, through God’s decree jesus was created, as you know humans are made out clay as the Torah and Quran states, so God formed Jesus in Mary’s womb through His command thus God created Jesus with His command and was formed clay in the womb of Mary. 

Jesus was the manifestation of God’s decree thus he was a sign to mankind hence they in gospel of John 1:10-13 it says, 

10It(the word) was in the world and, though the world was made through it(the word) the world did not recognise it(the word). 11He went to his own people, and his own people did not accept him. 12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to be godly servants of God 13They are reborn—not because of natural decent nor of the desire or will of mankind, but reborn for God.

the same decree that created the world also created jesus and Adam. Jesus was the walking word of God and also the walking Gospel. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

5 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. 7 If you worship me, it will all be yours.”  8 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’”

 

The way the Gospel is meant to be understood is that behind every parable or incident their is principal or a theology.

1Then Isho was led by an angel into the wilderness to be tested by the devil. 2After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the messenger of Allaha, tell these stones to become bread.”

4Isho answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of Allaha.’ ”(Deuteronomy 8:3)

5Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6“If you are the messenger of Allaha,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“ ‘He will command his angels concerning you,and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’ ” (Psalms 91:11-12)

7Isho answered him, “It is also written: ‘You shall not try the LORD your Eloh, as you tried Him in Massah.’ ” (Deuteronomy 6:16)

8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9“All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and serve me.”

10Isho said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the LORD your Eloh, and serve Him only.’” (Deuteronomy 6:13)

11Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

this incident proves the infallibility of jesus, what is meant by infallibility is that a prophet of God can sin but wouldn’t  sin because of their God consciousness, this incident is a great example, it is part of your theology to believe the prophets are sinless, I Ask you, can you pass pure water through the impure water ? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/22/2020 at 1:31 PM, guest 2025 said:

We accept this reality as well. There is a narration that states "Actions are judged by intentions". 

We consider this to be a good thing. “Hakim Luqmān ((رضي الله عنه)) advised his son in his will. ‘If your deeds equal the good deeds of all men and Jinns, together, you must expect that you may yet be punished by Him. And you must hope in Allah so much that even if you carry the burden of the total sins of men and jinns, and approach Allah for forgiveness, He will pardon you.' It's this fear that keeps a pious man humble and in check, and this hope that keeps him truckin. We believe that hope and fear are the two wings of a believer.

Could you tell me how Christians approach the matter of fearing God? Sorry to butt in when you didn't address me, but I am curious

Thanks Guest 2025, and I don't feel like you butt in! I'm grateful for your curiousity and for helping me to know what Muslims believe. In regards to the Christian approach to fearing God, I will say a couple things. First of all, our fear is two-fold. I would compare it to how you would deal with a lion or a tiger- you would be in awe of its beauty and power and so badly want to go and pet it but at the same time you would clearly see that if you got too close that you would likely be mauled and killed. When we 'fear' God, it is a deep and sincere respect of His glory and beauty. I would guess this is probably similar to the Muslims view but not totally sure. 

I would also like to point out the difference between our position with God before Christ and after. In the time of Moses, we saw clearly that it was a dangerous thing to get too close to God. Indeed anyone who even touched the mountain where God was speaking with Moses would be killed. And then God gave instructions to Moses on the building of the tabernacle. God was hidden behind the curtain in the Holy of Holies. And it was the same when God gave instructions to King Solomon regarding the building of the Temple. God was hidden behind the curtain. This was in fact to protect His people from being killed from drawing too close to God. But when Jesus Christ was crucified on the cross, this curtain was torn in two from top to bottom. When this happened, it demonstrated that because Christ had become sin for us on the cross, that He had made a way for anyone who would trust in Christ for salvation to now be able to approach God, to be near to Him. In Hebrews 4:16, it says that we can now approach God with confidence because of what Christ did on our behalf. 

I hope this is helpful!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/23/2020 at 10:51 AM, Guest Guest said:

So you’re saying God is omnipresent and at the exact same time not omnipresent, Omniscient and at the exact same time not Omniscient, omnipotent and at the exact same time not omnipotent, do you realise how silly that sounds ?  

Now we're dealing with the issue of the 2 natures of Jesus. As Christians, we believe that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. This is just as confusing of a doctrine as the Trinity but it is true. God the Son is outside of time and space but He chose to step into a human body, into physical limitations for the purpose of bringing salvation to mankind. Jesus felt pleasure and pain, hunger and thirst, sadness and joy just like all of us because He is man. But He could also walk on water, turn water into wine and heal the blind and diseased because He is God. Philippians 2:5-8 says this: "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/23/2020 at 9:08 AM, Guest Guest said:

do you realise how silly that sounds?

HI Guest

I wonder what you think about these three comments?

  • I will only worship a God that I can understand.

  • If I can’t comprehend with my tiny limited intellect the creator and sustained of the universe, then he can’t be like that.

  • God must act according to my logic and scientific understanding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Nathan said:

we believe that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.

That’s a separationist doctrine which is a heresy you are distinguishing the Jesus who is God from the Jesus who is just a man, God is eternal he cannot die. 

 

3 hours ago, Nathan said:

this: "Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." 

Notice it says “in the form of God”,God has no form, some translations say in nature a God. 2. Notice that he says “did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped...” Paul is distinguishing jesus ,who is seen as God by Paul, from God. Paul was a dualist who believed God the Jesus manifested himself as human while God Almighty stayed being His nature. 

No matter how you try to explain the trinity it’s either you end up in the world of Modalism, tritheism, or God made up of three parts, or God being limited and unlimited at the same time as I have described. Even while you’re explaining the trinity you are shifting between different theology’s without realising ,or perhaps not..., in short not being consistent. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/24/2020 at 8:42 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

I will only worship a God that I can understand.

I ask you, why does God need to become a human ? 

Here’s a story to reflect on 

Judge1. Once upon a time there was a young man who committed a crime, later that day he regretted it and was sent to the court, the young man cried and cried bitterly because of the crime that he committed and regrets it very much, he expressed to the judge how much he regretted the crime that he committed and begged for mercy, the judge told the young man that you will be sent to jail unless someone comes and bails you out, as the judge was finishing saying that a man came and said to the judge “I will pay for his bail” so the judge accepted and the young man was released. 

Judge2. Once upon a time there was young man who committed a crime, later that day he regretted the crime that he committed and was sent to the court, the young man cried and cried bitterly because of the crime that he committed and regrets it very much, he expressed to the judge how much he regretted the crime that he committed and begged for mercy, to judge told the young man “I will forgive you but on one condition....that you will never do it again” the young man was very glad and did not see the jail. 

 

I ask you, which judge was merciful?

On 5/24/2020 at 8:42 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

If I can’t comprehend with my tiny limited intellect the creator

God is transcendent, it is through the created you will know the creator.  

Mathew 6

See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these.30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

HI Guest

I wonder what you think about these three comments?

  • I will only worship a God that I can understand.

Essentially, this is what Christian Trinitarianism is all about: defining the God by bringing Him down to man’s level. By mixing pure spirit and impure matter. Kabbalah. Occult. Pagan. Ego.

That is what the doctrine of the Incarnation is all about: lying about what God said about Himself through His chosen representatives. The apostle Paul admitted to lying for ulterior motive.

2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:
  • If I can’t comprehend with my tiny limited intellect the creator and sustained of the universe, then he can’t be like that.

 

Christian orthodoxy: “Since I cannot comprehend the absolute, illimitable Oneness and Transcendence of the God, He must be brought down to my level of imperfection/impurity.”

2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:
  • God must act according to my logic and scientific understanding.

There is no logic or science behind the doctrine of the Trinity. None at all. By claiming that the God cannot be known by His signs in creation, you are essentially cutting off the God from His creation. The God can be known in a limited way through the revelations and signs of His representatives. All creation, in a sense, is His representative and reflects some of His inexhaustible attributes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/22/2020 at 9:41 PM, Mohammad313Ali said:

Numbers 23:19

“God is not a man, that He should lie,

Nor a son of man, that He should repent;

Has He said, and will He not do it?

Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

It's really interesting that you quote this verse.  You are right in drawing our attention to the way that God is different from human beings.  God does not need to repent because he is perfect and without sin.

That is the exciting thing about the term "Son of Man" it is used in the Old Testament to talk about humans and that is why Daniel 7 is so amazing.  A person looking like a human - a Son of Man - is given things that only God can have. - let's look at it again

13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

It is clear that "The Ancient of Days" is a term used to discribe God Almighty.  So this being like a human - this son of man - is given authority, glory and sovereign power by God himself.  These are things that earthly kings might have but ultimatly they belong to God.  Then all people worship the son of man.  Who do we worship? Who does the Bible call us to worship?  Only God is worthy of worship.  Worshiping anything else is shirk.  The sorvereignty the son of man is given is everlasting - will not pass away - never be destroyed.  All kingdoms, powers, empieres come and go, only God reigns eternally, His is the only power that is so strong it can not be destroyed.

So we have a "son of man" a human being, being given things that only God can rightfully own and claim.  Who is this son of man - how can a human take these things and be worthy of them?  What is Jesus doing when he refers to himself in these terms? He makes direct reference to this passage a number of times.

  • “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
  • “You have said so,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: From now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

May God help us to see and understand

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/24/2020 at 7:46 PM, Northwest said:

There is no logic or science behind the doctrine of the Trinity. None at all. By claiming that the God cannot be known by His signs in creation, you are essentially cutting off the God from His creation. The God can be known in a limited way through the revelations and signs of His representatives. All creation, in a sense, is His representative and reflects some of His inexhaustible attributes.

Hey Northwest,

Because God is God and we are lowly men, He has communicated to us in a way that we can understand. You say there is no logic or science behind the doctrine of the Trinity. There is simply nothing else in the created world that is exactly like the Trinity. God is set apart. But we have things that are similar (not perfect analogies) such as water can be a liquid, a solid and a gas. Again, this isn't perfect because the water can't be each of the states of matter at one time.

We have a hard time understanding the doctrine of the Trinity because God is so much higher and holier and wiser than us! But God has revealed Himself to us in two ways. You mentioned creation-this is absolutely one of the ways He has revealed Himself to us. Romans 1:19-20 says "For what can be known about God is plain to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made."

The second way God has revealed Himself is through His Word, aka the Bible. We will never fully understand God. He is too wonderful for us! But God's Word is sufficient for teaching us about who He is. A lifetime spent studying and delight in the Bible is a lifetime well spent. 

I'd also like to say that just faith often doesn't depend on logic or what makes sense to us. Jesus often talked about the fact that God hides things from the wise and understanding but reveals them to little children. We must not grow too old!
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

It is clear that "The Ancient of Days" is a term used to discribe God Almight

God has no form Exodus 20:4, Deuteronomy 4:15-19

term Son of Man is an idiom for “I am human” prophet Ezekiel was called the Son of Man and had the title. Ive Already explained the idiom. 

This Son of Man has the same authority as the previous messiah’s and prophets of God except different miracles and positions

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/19/2020 at 6:44 AM, notme said:

Adam (عليه السلام), David (عليه السلام), and Elijah (عليه السلام) are all referred to as "son of God" also

Psalm 82:6 says "You are gods; you are all SONS of the most high"

I feel like the men who compiled & canonized the bible meant this in terms of "You are GOD'S" due to the "sons" that follows. Of course, I also believe that this was later changed to fall in line with Christian dogmas regarding Jesus (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as the  "Son Of God©", which the Quran very clearly states that Jesus emphatically denied being (I just read it the other night, I just can't remember which surah)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/24/2020 at 9:46 AM, Northwest said:

The apostle Paul admitted to lying for ulterior motive.

I am no fan of Paul, so I have long suspected that Paul was the one who corrupted Christianity by faking a "conversion experience" on the road to Damascus, Syria for the purposes of neutering the revelation of Jesus (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

 

On 5/24/2020 at 4:13 AM, Nathan said:

As Christians, we believe that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man.

I was taught this as well, even as a Catholic; but I never thought that it even remotely made sense.

1. God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) cannot be a man, man cannot be a god by the very definition of the two terms

2. Jesus (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is either 100% God or 100% man (my money is on 100% man)

3. You cannot be 100% one thing and also be any percentage of something else. ex: If I am 100% Ukrainian (American), I cannot also be even 1% Romanian, let alone 100% Romanian at the same time as being 100% Ukrainian (American). The logic isn't there, and I always wrestled with that idea when I was a Christian.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GD41586 said:

which the Quran very clearly states that Jesus emphatically denied being (I just read it the other night, I just can't remember which surah)

Quote from the Holy Qur'an: Maryam (19:30)

قَالَ إِنِّى عَبْدُ ٱللَّهِ ءَاتَىٰنِىَ ٱلْكِتَٰبَ وَجَعَلَنِى نَبِيًّا

[Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet.

Quote from the Holy Qur'an: Maryam (19:35)

مَا كَانَ لِلَّهِ أَن يَتَّخِذَ مِن وَلَدٍ ۖ سُبْحَٰنَهُۥٓ ۚ إِذَا قَضَىٰٓ أَمْرًا فَإِنَّمَا يَقُولُ لَهُۥ كُن فَيَكُونُ

It does not befit Allah to appoint someone as His son – Purity is to Him! When He ordains a matter, He just commands it, “Be” – and it thereupon happens.

Quote from the Holy Qur'an: Al-Kahf (18:4)

وَيُنذِرَ ٱلَّذِينَ قَالُوا۟ ٱتَّخَذَ ٱللَّهُ وَلَدًا

And to warn those who say “Allah has chosen a child.”

Quote from the Holy Qur'an: Al-Kahf (18:5)

مَّا لَهُم بِهِۦ مِنْ عِلْمٍ وَلَا لِءَابَآئِهِمْ ۚ كَبُرَتْ كَلِمَةً تَخْرُجُ مِنْ أَفْوَٰهِهِمْ ۚ إِن يَقُولُونَ إِلَّا كَذِبًا

They do not have any knowledge of it – nor did their forefathers; profound is the word that comes out of their mouths; they only speak a lie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/24/2020 at 5:46 PM, Northwest said:

Essentially, this is what Christian Trinitarianism is all about: defining the God by bringing Him down to man’s level. By mixing pure spirit and impure matter. Kabbalah. Occult. Pagan. Ego.

Hi there. I'd like to try to clarify things a little, if that would be helpful.

Kabbalah is completely different to Christianity. Paul would say it was not Christianity very quickly.

Occult and Pagan are explicitly rejected by Paul.

Ego is also attacked by many New Testament writers in many, many ways.

That is what the doctrine of the Incarnation is all about: lying about what God said about Himself through His chosen representatives. The apostle Paul admitted to lying for ulterior motive.

Paul was very clear that he was telling the truth (Galatians 1:20). Where do you think he admits to lying?

Christian orthodoxy: “Since I cannot comprehend the absolute, illimitable Oneness and Transcendence of the God, He must be brought down to my level of imperfection/impurity.”

Not what is being said, I'm afraid. More along the lines of 'We are forced by events to conclude that both Jesus and the Holy Spirit need to be thought of as part of the One God'.

There is no logic or science behind the doctrine of the Trinity. None at all.

There is, but more importantly there is the experience of the earliest disciples driving them to logical conclusions about God.

By claiming that the God cannot be known by His signs in creation, you are essentially cutting off the God from His creation. The God can be known in a limited way through the revelations and signs of His representatives. All creation, in a sense, is His representative and reflects some of His inexhaustible attributes.

In Romans 1:20 Paul says that God can be known in creation.

I hope all this is helpful


 


 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/24/2020 at 11:24 AM, THREE1THREE said:

Judge1. Once upon a time there was a young man who committed a crime, later that day he regretted it and was sent to the court, the young man cried and cried bitterly because of the crime that he committed and regrets it very much, he expressed to the judge how much he regretted the crime that he committed and begged for mercy, the judge told the young man that you will be sent to jail unless someone comes and bails you out, as the judge was finishing saying that a man came and said to the judge “I will pay for his bail” so the judge accepted and the young man was released. 

Judge2. Once upon a time there was young man who committed a crime, later that day he regretted the crime that he committed and was sent to the court, the young man cried and cried bitterly because of the crime that he committed and regrets it very much, he expressed to the judge how much he regretted the crime that he committed and begged for mercy, to judge told the young man “I will forgive you but on one condition....that you will never do it again” the young man was very glad and did not see the jail. 

Hi THREE1THREE!

I hope your day or night is going well!

I read these two scenarios.The first judge allows someone else to pay the bail.  This actually happens all the time.  The bail is the sum of money one must pay as sort of a fine when they get arrested.  They are released and must go back later for their trial.  Someone that doesn't pay bail will have to stay in jail for their trial.  So in the first scenario there is no mercy but the judge is acting in accordance to at least the United States justice system.  The criminal will be either found guilty or not guilty later.  

The second judge showed mercy, but has no sense of true justice whatsoever.  The law, in his eyes, means nothing and I would not want to be the victim of this man at the court because all you apparently need to do is cry and he'll let you go.  I'm not saying that showing mercy is not good.  It is and should be shown. We show mercy based on the mercy that God showed us. But God's nature doesn't allow for any wiggle room. God never changes and he is passionate about the law being kept 100%.  

I'm not sure if these examples are related to Jesus and our belief that he paid our price, but these examples are radically different.  God is completely just and in his perfect, holy and just nature, he simply cannot overlook sin.  This is why in the Old Testament Adam and Eve are removed from the garden immediately and the reason why there was a sacrificial system set up.  Sin demands a payment.  God, however, is infinitely merciful in that instead of having someone else come and pay the fine or ransom for us, he sends his Son, Jesus, who is fully God to pay the price.  Yahweh dies on the cross for our sins.  The equivalent would be if the judge of the universe was giving you a sentence and instead of you having to die, he steps down, takes your punishment and lets you free.  It is not allowing another human being to take the punishment for you.  It is the mercy-filled God that pays the price and become a curse on our behalf.    So he not only demonstrates complete justice (every last crime needs to be paid for before a holy God) and complete mercy by trading places with us, now offering us a gift of salvation based on what he already did.  God is both 100% just and does not allow the law to be broken without punishment and 100% merciful in that he does the absolute act of mercy that can ever be done.

By the way, what does your username mean?  Is it in reference to the Trinity somehow or am I way off?

Anyway, God bless you and be safe!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

@Nathan have you heard of council of nicea? There is a lot of secrets within rome and the vatican brother.

I'm not Nathan, lol, but I'm sure he'll respond as well.  I know this council always comes up but there are writings of early creeds and/or statements in Christian history before this council and even hundreds of years before Constantine was ever born.  The New Testament contains the first creeds regarding the status of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and then in the writings by others.  Christians actually always believed in the Triune God.  This belief did not begin at the Council of Nicea, but the council was needed because there were heretical beliefs surfacing regarding Jesus and other things.  If it weren't for these heresies there may not have even been a council.  Also, if there were not as many writings during the first few hundred years of Christian history, it was because Christians were being gruesomely killed and tortured for their faith.  I took a class on Christian persecution and to say that it was atrocious is an understatement.  In many places it was illegal to be a follower of Jesus.  When Constantine is emperor he "Christianizes" everything and for the first time in a very long time Christians were able to be free, talk about their faith, worship and be at peace.  It's very hard to get together for a council when people are hunting you.  Now, I don't even know if Constantine ever became a Christian.  There are some traditions from that time period that are unnecessary and yes, Rome and the Vatican have a lot of secrets I'm sure.  I do not agree with a lot of what they do or have done.  But look into the history of Christianity more.  Read the early writings where the Trinity is mentioned.  

Okay, @Nathan if you want to add anything, go ahead!  

AkhiraisReal, take care of yourself and God bless you!:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Ashvazdanghe, just wanted to comment on something you said earlier...

"Hi  this idea came from Egyptian & Greek Gods & Goddes stories specially storiesof Osiris & Zeus to justify lady Mary (sa)  pregnancy without having relationship with any man that holy Quran responded to both christian & Jews that creation of Jesus [prophet Isa(as)] was like creation of prophet Adam (عليه السلام) "

I know that's a popular claim among non-Christians right now, but there truly is no basis to it. If you can find an actual ancient source of a virgin giving birth, for example, I would love to see it. The parallels between Christianity and these other ancient religions are grossly exaggerated and best, and completely fabricated at worst. I recommend you read this refutation of such claims here (this link contains some refutations to the "Zeitgeist" movie which advanced and popularized these claims about 12 years ago; I don't know if you've seen it but it essentially details what you've brought up). 

Hope you enjoy the article, God bless!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, AkhiraisReal said:

@Nathan have you heard of council of nicea? There is a lot of secrets within rome and the vatican brother.

 

5 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

I'm not Nathan, lol, but I'm sure he'll respond as well.  I know this council always comes up but there are writings of early creeds and/or statements in Christian history before this council and even hundreds of years before Constantine was ever born.  The New Testament contains the first creeds regarding the status of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and then in the writings by others.  Christians actually always believed in the Triune God.  This belief did not begin at the Council of Nicea, but the council was needed because there were heretical beliefs surfacing regarding Jesus and other things.  If it weren't for these heresies there may not have even been a council.  Also, if there were not as many writings during the first few hundred years of Christian history, it was because Christians were being gruesomely killed and tortured for their faith.  I took a class on Christian persecution and to say that it was atrocious is an understatement.  In many places it was illegal to be a follower of Jesus.  When Constantine is emperor he "Christianizes" everything and for the first time in a very long time Christians were able to be free, talk about their faith, worship and be at peace.  It's very hard to get together for a council when people are hunting you.  Now, I don't even know if Constantine ever became a Christian.  There are some traditions from that time period that are unnecessary and yes, Rome and the Vatican have a lot of secrets I'm sure.  I do not agree with a lot of what they do or have done.  But look into the history of Christianity more.  Read the early writings where the Trinity is mentioned.  

Okay, @Nathan if you want to add anything, go ahead!  

AkhiraisReal, take care of yourself and God bless you!:)

Thanks tdawg! I definitely agree with you. The Councils always took place when people started straying from what the Christian Scriptures said. The Councils put words to what the Bible teaches. 

As far as the secrets within Rome and the Vatican goes, I would ask that you don't judge Christianity based on either. The Bible is what is true. Mankind is flawed and I think a lot of people have been turned away from following Jesus because of people who call themselves Christians but actually have nothing to do with Christ. This is heart breaking for me and it makes it very hard to convince people that Jesus is the only way to God. I would say, study the 4 Gospels in the New Testament. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John share the life of Jesus. Study His life and see how He lived. He is patient, loving and kind and His desire is that we follow Him!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@thegoodman81 I saw a brief of "Zeitgeist" few years ago that from what I remember  it was popular suggestion of Christians to muslims for refuting claims of  sunnis but it was a a weak copy of Shia idea about global  management of world after returning of Jesus & Imam Mahdi (aj) because based on shia narration after their coming of them & establishing their government  on earth we won't face any global disaster like drought & typhoon & etc which whole of earth will become fertilized   like paradise  so there will be no lack of resources & conflit between humans even predator animal will live peacefully  beside domesticate animals but they won't need to hunt them to satisfy their hunger.

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

By the way, what does your username mean?  Is it in reference to the Trinity somehow or am I way off?

It’s the number of soldiers who will be imam Mehdi, the imam who will be with Jesus in the end times. 

 

You missed whole point of this parable and seems like you tried to avoid it.... could be wrong though. 

Judge 1 wouldn’t forgive unless a price was paid. 

Judge 2 forgave with a condition that he/she doesn’t repeat the act again 

the God of NT is not willing to forgive the one who is sincerely seeking his forgiveness until someone else comes and bears that person’s burden. Even if that person regrets his actions and is now turning back for forgiveness.

the God of the OT is willing to forgive the one who is sincere in seeking for His forgiveness after he/she has regretted what he/she has done 

read Ezekiel 18:18-21

the God of the NT is not merciful while the God of OT is merciful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Christians actually always believed in the Triune God. 

The early Christians didn’t believe in a “triune” God. 

Paul himself wasn’t a trinitarian rather he was a dualist. 

Ephesians 1:3 

“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

 

Colossians 1:3

“3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

 

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that God is the father of Jesus, this is a Greek methodology belief, Paul was a Hellenistic Jew. 

 

 1 Corinthians 8:6

“6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”

Paul makes it clear that only the Father is God, not the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit. 

 

Philippians 2:5-7

5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

 

Now in verse 5 Paul is telling the people to have the same mindset as Jesus amongst each other then he continues on in verse by saying 6 “who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” and he go’s in verse 7 by pretty much saying jesus took on a form of a human. 

In verse 6 Paul says “Who being very nature God” over here Paul believes Jesus to be God but then as we continue on in verse 6 Paul says “did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage”  Now over here Paul is distinguishing Jesus from God but he also believes jesus was also a God beside God but Jesus who is the second God manifested himself in a human form ,as verse 7 shows, so that he is no longer equal to God rather he is limited. 

Now this is obviously a heresy and dualism since Jesus is a God beside God, despite jesus manifesting himself in a human form because in nature he is a God beside God except he is a limited God beside God. This is obviously not Monotheism at all and contradicts the Law and the prophets. So if the trinitarians try to use Paul’s epistles to show the trinity then they have to believe there are either two Gods or three Gods since Paul believes Jesus was a God beside God but he limited himself so he is no longer equal to God by not being Almighty like God.

 

the early Christians were Unitarian, jesus makes it explicit that he is not God in 

Mark 10:17-18

 “17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.”

If Jesus considered himself to be God then he wouldn’t say “why do you CALL ME good ? No one is good, EXCEPT GOD ALONE” jesus is explicitly denying being God.

 

also in John 10:27-39

John 10:27-39

“27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ? 35If he called them ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s son’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 

38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.”

 

In john 10:32 we see that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus had meant by “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:29). And in john 10:33 they accused him of blasphemy. Now, had Jesus been God, or had he and God been one in a literal sense then he wouldn’t have hesitated to clarify the matter at that point. Jesus at that point said, “Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?” What he was trying to say was that if the Jews called “I and my Father are one” blasphemy then they should call what was written in their law “You are gods” blasphemy too.

The reasoning behind this is “You are elohim” does not mean that you, the Jewish Messengers, are Gods, it is rather an expression. It just means that you are godly people. The same applies to “I and my Father are one.” It does not mean that Jesus is God or that he and God are the same literally. It’s just an expression meaning they are one in purpose.

 

Jesus was introduced as prophet to the people

Mathew 21:

10When Jesus entered Jerusalem, the whole city was stirred and asked, “Who is this?”

11The crowds answered, “This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth in Galilee.”

This occurs many times in the gospel  where jesus is introduced to the people as a prophet and messiah. 

 

Mathew 21:

45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard Jesus’ parables, they knew he was talking about them. 46They looked for a way to arrest him, but they were afraid of the crowd because the people held that he was a prophet.

 

last but least Exodus 20:4, Deuteronomy 4:15-19, Malachi 3:6, 2 chronicles 2:6,6:18 God has no form nor an abode and does not change Himself. Numbers 23:19 is pretty clear. 

Jesus came to confirm these, Mathew 5:17. 

The trinity is absolutely no where in the NT and it was made in 4th-5th the term was coined by Tertullian but he didn’t hold the belief of what it is believed to be today. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

It’s the number of soldiers who will be imam Mehdi, the imam who will be with Jesus in the end times. 

 

You missed whole point of this parable and seems like you tried to avoid it.... could be wrong though. 

Judge 1 wouldn’t forgive unless a price was paid. 

Judge 2 forgave with a condition that he/she doesn’t repeat the act again 

the God of NT is not willing to forgive the one who is sincerely seeking his forgiveness until someone else comes and bears that person’s burden. Even if that person regrets his actions and is now turning back for forgiveness.

the God of the OT is willing to forgive the one who is sincere in seeking for His forgiveness after he/she has regretted what he/she has done 

read Ezekiel 18:18-21

the God of the NT is not merciful while the God of OT is merciful.

Hey THREE1THREE,

I'd like to jump in if that's ok. The issue here is our understanding of God's character. I agree with you that God is the 1st judge. But I don't see this as a bad thing. The God of the Bible, the God I worship and adore is a God of holiness and justice. Romans 6:23 says that "the wages of sin is death" After we commit one sin, we are deserving of death. A good judge doesn't just let someone off the hook because they're sorry. 

I'd also like to respectfully disagree with you about the God of the OT being any different than the God of the NT. God doesn't change. Here are a couple examples of when those who regretted what they had done were not forgiven:

Hebrews 12:15-17- "See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears."

1 Samuel 15:24-26-"Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned, for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord and your words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice.25 Now therefore, please pardon my sin and return with me that I may bow before the Lord.” 26 And Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you. For you have rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you from being king over Israel.”

And finally, you say that the God of the NT is not merciful. Again, God does not change. James 1:17 says, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change." God is always merciful. If He wasn't, He wouldn't have atoned for our sin by sending His son to die for us. Because His wrath is eternal, only His Son was able to absorb it on the cross and now those who trust in Christ's sacrifice and resurrection can now experience the most wonderful gift: salvation and everlasting life in the presence of God!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Nathan said:

Romans 6:23 says that "the wages of sin is death"

 

That’s fine you can join in anytime :)

That’s a Pauline teaching so that’s no authority. Paul is saying this to make his Teaching of jesus dying for your sins a basis. He has no basis at all. 

17 hours ago, Nathan said:

Hebrews 12:15-17-

Again that’s a pauline epistle. 

17 hours ago, Nathan said:

1 Samuel 15:24-26-"Saul said to Samuel, “I have sinned, for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord and your words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice.25 Now therefore, please pardon my sin and return with me that I may bow before the Lord.” 26 And Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you. For you have rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord has rejected you from being king over Israel.”

I believe Saul is Jalut in the Quran ?? 

Saul was appointed by God to be king and obviously was God’s representative (so that makes him a prophet), it’s part of your beliefs to believe the prophets are infallible, the Gospel is a book of theology and principles so behind every incident and parable their is either a theology or a principle. If you read passages where the angle of the Lord takes jesus to the desert, after fasting forty days he was tested by Satan and he was being clever when quoting some of the scripture, jesus was refuting all of the stuff he was taking out of context and telling him, thus incident shows It is part of your theology to believe all of God’s representatives are infallible meaning they can sin but wouldn’t sin because of their God consciousness. So this passage is not acceptable cos it is corrupted and contradicts one of the most important fundamental beliefs of your theology. 

The only time a person can’t receive God’s mercy is after advice and proof has come to him yet he still continues the major sin with no regret until God’s divine wrath comes upon him and when God’s divine wrath comes its too late, the person refused God’s communications after it reached him and continued to do commit this wicked sin without regret and thinking about it until he met God’s wrath. 

An example I can relate to you is the story of pharaoh, Moses came with clear signs and communications yet pharoah still claimed to be God until he saw God’s divine wrath and when he saw God’s divine wrath he seeked for forgiveness but it wasn’t accepted because he met one of God’s wrath from hell on earth. 

17 hours ago, Nathan said:

God is always merciful. If He wasn't, He wouldn't have atoned for our sin by sending His son to die for us.

You missed the whole point of the two judges, you know very well that Judge2 was merciful while judge1 wasn’t, if that person who paid the bail wasn’t  their that person in the court would be sent to and stuck in jail. Likewise if we go by ur pauline teaching then the people before Christ are doomed and sent to hell because they didn’t receive Jesus. 

You are the one that’s changing God in every way. 

17 hours ago, Nathan said:

James 1:17 says, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change."

James 2:8-11

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” a you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

 

Ezekiel 18:18-22

“[But] his father, because he illegally suppressed, committed robbery against his brother and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his sin.

Yet you say, "Why does the son not bear with the sin of the father?" But the son has practiced justice and righteousness, he has kept all My laws and he carries them out; he shall surely live.

The soul that sins, it shall die; a son shall not bear the sin of the father, and a father shall not bear the sin of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

And if the wicked man repent of all his sins that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

All his transgressions that he has committed shall not be remembered regarding him: through his righteousness that he has done he shall live.”

2 Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face(favours), and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

Ecclesiastes 12:13 “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” 

I Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

Mathew 5:

“19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the scribes, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Hosea 6:6, “6For I desire mercy, not sacrifice” It is clear that God didn’t send anyone to sacrifice as Hosea 6:6 clearly states God desires mercy not sacrifice, that means sacrifices have been abolish long ago by prophet Hosea, and Jesus came to fulfill it as Mathew 5:17 clearly shows.

Mathew 5:17

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets(unaltered teachings and message); I have not come to abolish them but to FULFILL them.”

This while teaching of Jesus dying for ur sins a Paulin teaching borrowed from the pagans who sacrifice their sons and daughters as a ritual. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/28/2020 at 7:06 AM, tdawg626 said:

I'm not sure if these examples are related to Jesus and our belief that he paid our price, but these examples are radically different. 

It is not radically different read my new reply Nathan he understood the parable very well. 

On 5/28/2020 at 7:06 AM, tdawg626 said:

God is completely just and in his perfect, holy and just nature, he simply cannot overlook sin.  This is why in the Old Testament Adam and Eve are removed from the garden immediately and the reason why there was a sacrificial system set up.  Sin demands a payment.

Read my new reply to Nathan on infalliblity part. The apple was a means of when to start prophethood on earth, otherwise God wouldn’t create earth in the first place. 

The scarifice system was brought in the time of Moses and later this system was abrogated. This was because the children of Israel in the time of Moses still had some arrogance in them and needed to be purified from that. Again read my new reply to Nathan. 

Yes God does overlook major sins if that person repents sincerely and turns back to God. But obviously with that being said their are still worldly consequences that are to be carried out just like Islam their is a system where you have to pay a penalty in this world. This is God’s Justice and mercy. 

On 5/28/2020 at 7:06 AM, tdawg626 said:

he sends his Son, Jesus, who is fully God to pay the price.  Yahweh dies on the cross for our sins. 

Again not being consistent, read 2 chronicles 2:6, 6:18. Is God sending himself ? Or is He taking modes ? (Which is Modalism) God does not die he is eternal. That leads to a seperationist theology which is a heresy. Read Exodus 20:4, Numbers 23:19 God is not a man nor the son of man.  

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/28/2020 at 2:14 AM, THREE1THREE said:

It’s the number of soldiers who will be imam Mehdi, the imam who will be with Jesus in the end times. 

 

You missed whole point of this parable and seems like you tried to avoid it.... could be wrong though. 

Judge 1 wouldn’t forgive unless a price was paid. 

Judge 2 forgave with a condition that he/she doesn’t repeat the act again 

the God of NT is not willing to forgive the one who is sincerely seeking his forgiveness until someone else comes and bears that person’s burden. Even if that person regrets his actions and is now turning back for forgiveness.

the God of the OT is willing to forgive the one who is sincere in seeking for His forgiveness after he/she has regretted what he/she has done 

read Ezekiel 18:18-21

the God of the NT is not merciful while the God of OT is merciful.

Hi, 

I'm confused about judge 1 because you talked about a bail.  Did you mean to say that he was let go?  Being let out of the charges and having a bail paid for you are radically different in the U.S.  If you mean to say by bail that he was set free, then I would question the judges justice towards the person that comiited the crime but it could be seen as merciful to a point as well because usually you cannot pay a ransom to the court to let someone free.  For the judge to make an exception could be merciful.  But say this man comitted murder and someone else pays money for him to become innocent, that is corruption and not just for the victim or their family.

Judge 2 could have been merciful to the guilty party, but what about the offended parties?  The victiim and the victim's family?  I mean it depends how serious the crime was too.  If he stole a candy, well the judge may just be like, just leave and don't do it again.  But the more serious the crime, the less and less just he is by simply letting the person go.  I think you can show mercy to one person but not be just.  

So, I see both good and bad in both scenarios.  The God of both the OT and NT are the same God in our belief so it makes the scenario radically different.  God never uses another person to do his dirty work.  He pays the fine.  But he is both the lawgiver and the judge in this case, unlike the two cases you gave.  He made the laws, expects them to be followed completely and he is just in making sure that "an eye for an eye tooth for a tooth" is executed.  God is passionate about his laws and cannot overlook sin.  Never has he just overlooked sin because the sacrifice of Jesus has covered the believing guilty throughout all ages, to the past, present and future.  So God, the creator and judge who is intimately and passionatly involved with the law because it's his, looks at the guilty party and does not remove nesessarily the physical and eartly consequences of the sinful actions (although in his mercy sometimes he does), but removes the eternal and spiritual consquences of the person through faith and belief based on God and judge taking the place of the perpetrator.  God uses no one else but himself to pay the fine so it's so different.  God willingly paid the fine on our behalf because he could.  You may think Jesus is someone else, but as Christians we biblically and practically do not see of believe that so yes, the judge of the world gave himself as the rason for our sin, not a third party of human judge.  

What you see in the O.T. as opposed to the N.T. is different time periods, different covenants, and pre and post sacrifice.  God is demonstrating the qualities he always had but in different ways based on the setting and purposes of his will.  That's why it important to see the story as a whole.  We are now living under the new covenant, not the old.

God bless!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/28/2020 at 2:53 AM, THREE1THREE said:

Mark 10:17-18

 “17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.”

If Jesus considered himself to be God then he wouldn’t say “why do you CALL ME good ? No one is good, EXCEPT GOD ALONE” jesus is explicitly denying being God.

What Jesus is doing here is he's getting down deep into the man's heart, touching the very issue that's keeping him away from the kingdom of God -his love of riches as opposed to God.  Jesus tests him on the civil laws and the man believes he completes them perfectly.  However, Jesus shows him that he is still lacking in his morality or holiness because his heart loved riches and he was greedy.  Jesus gives him a "moral" thing to do which is to give all he had away.  Jesus doesn't stop there and tell him "and follow the Father," but rather equates himself with fulfilling the law and says, "follow me."  The statment about God being good alone does not state that Jesus is not God or good.  Is Jesus not good?  Even if Jesus was only a prophet was he not good?  He's certainly not bad.  But he also is not saying, "no one is good except God alone, and I am not God."  He doesn't say that.  He's testing the man's heart, in other words, seeing if the man understood who he was talking to.  Jesus frequently speak in these kinds of ways to prove to the speaker that they are right in who they say he is like Son of God or Son of Man.  I am well aware of what these titles mean in the orginal langauges, but this just adds to his uniquness are translated correctly based on context of O.T. and N.T. and what he says and does.  

Jesus claiming he is one with God, that he is "I am (which is conenct to Isaiah and Exodus," that he is the shepherd, the door, the gate, etc., is his claim to be divine and Yahweh.  Jesus is coming at the people from so many angles which is agering them to no end because for the these titles, including Son of God and Son of Man, were claims to be God.  Jesus never is denying these claims and John's intent in the gospel was never to make Jesus look foolish and to not be God.  Instead John's intent is to show that Jesus was God and that's why the Jews were going to stone him.  By telling the Pharisees that they were gods is a direct quote from Pslams where God where there is judgement for people who are judging urightly.  By him saying this, first they knew the Pslam he was referring to as learned men, and second, they did not take this as a way to deflate his argument that he was God.  Instead, he demonstratest that he is God and the Son of God by showing them how wrongly they are judging the one who came from God as the Son of God.  I see your point in your defense against the verse, but it simply does not touch upon context, the Pslam, and who they knew he was saying to be.  It also goes against John's intention of the book or any N.T. writer's intention.  In fact, everyone knew how jealous God was and for him to send a Messiah that was so controversial and who claimed and did all that he did, would be God confusing people to have their hearts divided between the Messiah and God.  But what we see in scripture is a flow of how God revealed himself in three persons and did not always do it in the way we in the modern world would expect him to.  The scriptures must be searched, meditated on, and revealed as well.  Again the Bible talks about needing the Spirit of God to understand these things, otherwise it is vieled or like foolishness (1 Corinthians 1-2)

 

Have a good one!! God bless you

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...