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YaAli223

Opinion on cursing some of the sahaba

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13 hours ago, Hadi5 said:

Why should  we have concern who out of Sahaba will go in jannah and who not.

So it is better us to reckon our outcome than others.

Mr. You are here at SC for the discussion about the OP titled about the companions. so this is a discussion forum and it does not follow your baseless assumptions but sharing of views inline of the verses of Quran and hadith. You may leave the discussion if you do not like it. 

However you are failed so far to provide a verse of Quran or a hadith even to define the vague and false adopted term by sunnis ei companions  / sahaba / Ashab etc and those favoring them at this forum for their views about companions.

Edited by Muslim2010

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On 5/23/2020 at 11:36 AM, Hadi5 said:

If not openly, why secretly.

Mujtahids futwas are clear about it. We can politely dissociate from them. That too not presenting this as core of action.

Rather our All efforts should be to convey the message of Tawheed and Taqwa that is crux of Islam.

Then when needed also highlight the wrong doing of some Sahaba.

But at same time give true reverence and praising of sacrifices given by rest of Sahaba.

Concealment is don in a manner that nobody knows, otherwise is defies it purpose if its don openly. 

The truth alway has consequences, regardless how you voice it. Rasulillah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) went to many battles because of the truth. Imams (عليه السلام) were martyred because they were Haq.

Those who were sincere in their imaan will be rewarded by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). The question is was the majority of the companions  sincere in their imaan? If you forensically study history of the companions, then sadly your perspective of the companions is unsound to put it mildly. History is a testimony that doesn't  favour your biased view.

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On 5/23/2020 at 12:21 PM, power said:

Concealment is don in a manner that nobody knows, otherwise is defies it purpose if its don openly. 

The truth alway has consequences, regardless how you voice it. Rasulillah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) went to many battles because of the truth. Imams (عليه السلام) were martyred because they were Haq.

Those who were sincere in their imaan will be rewarded by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). The question is was the majority of the companions  sincere in their imaan? If you forensically study history of the companions, then sadly your perspective of the companions is unsound to put it mildly. History is a testimony that doesn't  favour your biased view.

That is double standard. Islam should be same both openly and secretly.

Just politely dissociate from the few, not generalise to all . One thing certain no one is infallible except Imams.

So it never mean highlight the mistakes of rest.Because neither Quran nor Ahlebayt as taught that.

We are ourselves full of mistakes and crimes despite calling ourselves follower of Ahlebayt as.

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2 minutes ago, Hadi5 said:

That is double standard. Islam should be same both openly and secretly.

Just politely dissociate from the few, not generalise to all . One thing certain no one is infallible except Imams.

So it never mean highlight the mistakes of rest.Because neither Quran nor Ahlebayt as taught that.

We are ourselves full of mistakes and crimes despite calling ourselves follower of Ahlebayt as.

Sadly you dont see the bigger issue, after the demise of Rasulillah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) Islam has taken many different forms, because of the companions. Hence all the bloodshed that is going on.

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3 minutes ago, power said:

Sadly you dont see the bigger issue, after the demise of Rasulillah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) Islam has taken many different forms, because of the companions. Hence all the bloodshed that is going on.

No That is not True .Islam got changed mostly in time of muawiya and Yazeed.

Yes, there was some issues just after Wisal of Rasoolalah saw.But by and large Islam was alive.

And you may find it in Nahjul balagah.

I don't mean sahaba we're perfect.

Yes , there erred but that didn't harm basics of Islam.

Edited by Hadi5

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Just now, Hadi5 said:

No That is not True .Islam got changed mostly in time of muawiya and Yazeed.

Yes, there was some issues just after Wisal of Rasoolalah saw.But by and large Islam was alive.

Thanks for your admissions.There was some issues. proves my point.

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On 5/23/2020 at 12:58 PM, power said:

Thanks for your admissions.There was some issues. proves my point.

I many times had admitted.

That muawiya did worst crime, that demaged Islam most.

I may say even more than Yazeed.

We should day and night curse him.

But be cautious not generalise it on rest of thousands of shaba ra.And don't undermine the sacrifices of Sahaba.

And never compare sahba ra with AhleBayat as.

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1 minute ago, Hadi5 said:

@power.

What for Imam Hussain sacrificed himself.Because all principles of Islam was being changed and mocked.

During the period of sahba they did mistakes in love for Power or duniya but didn't changed the Islamic principles.

Again you are admitting to my points, that the companions were not sincere in their taqwa. 

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On 5/23/2020 at 1:03 PM, power said:

Again you are admitting to my points, that the companions were not sincere in their taqwa. 

I am saying no one can be sincere to the level of Imams.

And inability of our sincerty to reach to level of Imams doesn't mean we should mock or talk bad.

One level of Taqwa is momineen has to necessarily forgive others for their errors, because  Allah lovez forgiving.

And momin can't achieve closeness of Allah without forgiving others mistakes or zulum.

Even if one did wrong you has to necessarily do good if you want to achieve Taqw and nobel character..

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On 5/23/2020 at 1:13 PM, Hadi5 said:

I am saying no one can be sincere to the level of Imams.

And inability of our sincerty to reach to level of Imams doesn't mean we should mock or talk bad.

One level of Taqwa is momineen has to necessarily forgive others for their errors, because  Allah lovez forgiving.

And momin can't achieve closeness of Allah without forgiving others mistakes or zulum.

Even if one did wrong you has to necessarily do good if you want to achieve Taqw and nobel character..

Tell me honestly, Would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgive those who have brought about innovation into Islam? 

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12 hours ago, power said:

Tell me honestly, Would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgive those who have brought about innovation into Islam? 

All the misdeeds against  Ahl alabayt (عليه السلام) of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned in the following can never be forgotten or forgiven, many verses can be found from Quran:

 Jesh e Usama,  Paper Pen,  Saqifa,  Fadak, Jamal, Siffin,   Nehrwan ....... To Karbala.

All actions of oppressors are condemned by various verses of Quran. 

Edited by Muslim2010

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The thread should be closed as the response is without any substance. However, I would like to exhaust the proof upon brother @Hadi5 by giving some hadith that shows how our Aimma (عليهم اسلام) did Tabarrah.

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/

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On 5/19/2020 at 9:22 PM, Mahdavist said:

Every action should be accompanied with intellect, sincerity and etiquette, even the most noble of acts.

If one gives charity, the intellect instructs where to give it (poor person rather than a wealthy person), sincerity instructs the intention for giving it (closeness to Allah as opposed to creating a positive image in society) and etiquette instructs how it's given (with humility, taking care of the feelings and self respect of the receiver).

Same for the recitation of the Qur'an. If one recites for the sake of showing off, for the sake of hearing their own voice or by disturbing those who are in the vicinity then the purpose is not fulfilled.

When one condemns enmity to the Ahlulbayt it is to take a clear stance on a matter of right vs wrong, to inform the people of the historical facts and to prevent the spread of misinformation. 

Anything that is labelled 'tabarrah' but does not align with the intellect, etiquette and intention that have been taught by Islam is in fact not tabarrah at all.

Brother you have rightly and with wisdom  conveyed the understanding of Tabbarah and it's negative effects.

You are right we should wisely act on this subject our action shouldn't haram Islam in totality. We can sacrifice minor subject for major benefit that is Prosperity of Islam.

I have point we have unnecessarily highlighted this issue that this only has become our Identity.

Ifeel I we should change our focus to slef building  and how to achieve Marifa of Allah through teaching of Ahlebayt as .So that it would be more beneficial for shias and sunni too will get attacked.And we can invite non muslims top. 

I may say it is this self building ( purification of soul from all sorts of sins)that was the ultimate goal of teaching of Ahlebayt as and Quran.

This is most important aspect of Islam and unfortunately it is getting least Importance.

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On 5/18/2020 at 10:07 PM, YaAli223 said:

Salam aleykom. Allah humma sallay ala muhammadin wa aale muhammad,

These days, there are many shia's who claim that they should not curse the sahaba (Abu bakr, Omar and Uthman for example). They give the example that the Prophet(saawaws) never cursed some of the sahaba, and if he(saawaws) did not curse them, we should not. What is your opinion about it.

May Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you

Yes, Many shia scholars have given futwa prohabitting  talking bad against some Sahaba.

So we should follow it.Because it has become source hatred amongst Muslims that has damaged the Islam.

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33 minutes ago, islam25 said:

.Because it has become source hatred amongst Muslims that has damaged the Islam.

Are you implying Shias are to blame for the damage? Because of are stance against the companions? 

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11 minutes ago, power said:

Are you implying Shias are to blame for the damage? Because of are stance against the companions? 

If you have some better justification why it was proohabited, let us know.

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2 minutes ago, islam25 said:

If you have some better justification why it was proohabited, let us know.

How about you addressing my question first? 

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36 minutes ago, power said:

How about you addressing my question first? 

Brother why complicate it.

Scholars have proohabited it.I suggest reason for it.

Waiting for your more appropriate reason.

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Guest Quran and Itrah
4 hours ago, Sirius_Bright said:

The thread should be closed as the response is without any substance. However, I would like to exhaust the proof upon brother @Hadi5 by giving some hadith that shows how our Aimma (عليهم اسلام) did Tabarrah.

http://www.marefateahlebait.com/

In one post, you've undone the rationale behind the Fatawah of our major ulema.

Shiachat clearly states, and maybe those more knowledgable than me on this @Hameedeh or @Abbas. that cursing the caliphs or wives is not allowed. Our ulema also make this clear.

However, instead of publicly cursing them, what you've done is linked to a website explicitly using questionable traditions which explicitly curse them

I am not well versed on Shiachat rules, could someone explain to me why cursing has been banned because of advice of our ulema, but people are openly and publicly declaring and posting explicit links to websites cursing them openly anyway?

I'm going to email Sayed Sistani and Sayed Ali Khamanei about this, citing the behaviour i am witnessing and i hope if you people don't listen to me, you will to the ulema.

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6 minutes ago, Guest Quran and Itrah said:

In one post, you've undone the rationale behind the Fatawah of our major ulema.

Shiachat clearly states, and maybe those more knowledgable than me on this @Hameedeh or @Abbas. that cursing the caliphs or wives is not allowed. Our ulema also make this clear.

However, instead of publicly cursing them, what you've done is linked to a website explicitly using questionable traditions which explicitly curse them

Now, you will even question us for posting links to Ahadith & teachings of Ahlulbayt (عليهم اسلام)? 

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Guest Quran and Itrah
5 minutes ago, Sirius_Bright said:

Now, you will even question us for posting links to Ahadith & teachings of Ahlulbayt (عليهم اسلام)? 

When Ayatullah Sistani and Ayatullah Khamanei, as well as scores of other Ulema, have explicitly condemned abusing, insulting and cursing certain revered symbols, do you believe our respected Ulema would accept lay people posting explicit, questionable narrations (mostly weak and have been addressed already, and even if some aren't that is besides the point) where these revered symbols are allegedly explicitly cursed, burnt, whipped and whatever else is on there?

The Ahlulbayt themselves forbid you to be posting whatever alleged traditions are attributed to them, the ulema do so to.

In even posting this, in me even engaging with you on this, the damage has been done, and the loss is to the madhab of Muhammed and ale Muhammed, and that is the biggest loss.

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Cursing is not allowed at ShiaChat. We all need to treat other members and guests with respect. The link posted -- in a reply above -- goes to a blog and whoever runs that site has posted their own view. If members here cannot refute it, then please ignore it. I'm not going to remove that post or the link, because the link has been posted as a reply in many other topics over the years.

Every marja has an opinion on what Tabarra means and how it is expressed. In some countries it is expressed as "I am disassociating myself from those who are the enemies of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Holy Prophet SA and the Ahlul Bayt AS." In some communities it is expressed as "extreme displeasure" or "aloofness" or "shunning". In other countries, it might be very harsh words, especially where Tabarra agitation occurred in the past. Most of us cannot really understand what it feels like to live in Southeast Asia where Shias are physically under attack. Due to circumstances, for them Tawalla and Tabarra are a family tradition and way of life, so they will staunchly defend it to the death. I would hope that the rest of us would keep them in our duas. 

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Guest Pschological Warfare

A Muslim is suppose to offer Five daily Obligatory Prayers. One of the Obligatory Surah is Al- Faatiha  last two lines are below. Unless people are reciting it with out a thought - or without understanding what they are saying. You know exactly who these are who went astray and you need to identify them and inform those who do not know. 

اهْدِنَا الصِّرَاطَ الْمُسْتَقِيمَ {6}

[Pickthal 1:6] Show us the straight path,

صِرَاطَ الَّذِينَ أَنْعَمْتَ عَلَيْهِمْ غَيْرِ الْمَغْضُوبِ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا الضَّالِّينَ {7}

[Pickthal 1:7] The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

------------------

Consider the Two verses 56 & the one Right after it (57). 

إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ۚ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا {56}

[Shakir 33:56] Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation.
[Pickthal 33:56] Lo! Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation.
[Yusufali 33:56] Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُؤْذُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لَعَنَهُمُ اللَّهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا مُهِينًا {57}

[Shakir 33:57] Surely (as for) those who speak evil things of Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and the here after, and He has prepared for them a chastisement bringing disgrace.
[Pickthal 33:57] Lo! those who malign Allah and His messenger, Allah hath cursed them in the world and the Hereafter, and hath prepared for them the doom of the disdained.
[Yusufali 33:57] Those who annoy Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this World and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating Punishment.

------------------------------

Read the Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) Surah # 63: al- Munaafiqoon (The Hypocrites) 

إِذَا جَاءَكَ الْمُنَافِقُونَ قَالُوا نَشْهَدُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنَّكَ لَرَسُولُهُ وَاللَّهُ يَشْهَدُ إِنَّ الْمُنَافِقِينَ لَكَاذِبُونَ {1}

[Pickthal 63:1] When the hypocrites come unto thee (O Muhammad), they say: We bear witness that thou art indeed Allah's messenger. And Allah knoweth that thou art indeed His messenger, and Allah beareth witness that the hypocrites indeed are speaking falsely.

اتَّخَذُوا أَيْمَانَهُمْ جُنَّةً فَصَدُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ ۚ إِنَّهُمْ سَاءَ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ {2}

[Pickthal 63:2] They make their faith a pretext so that they may turn (men) from the way of Allah. Verily evil is that which they are wont to do,

ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ آمَنُوا ثُمَّ كَفَرُوا فَطُبِعَ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ فَهُمْ لَا يَفْقَهُونَ {3}

[Pickthal 63:3] That is because they believed, then disbelieved, therefore their hearts are sealed so that they understand not.

-------------------------------

 

Scholars have defined the Enemy in their Islamic Law books. 

Quote

Nawasib (i.e. those who are enemies of the holy Imams) are also impure

Ayatullah Sayyid Abul-Qasim al-Khui

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui/impure-things-najasat#infidel

Quote

nawāṣib (i.e. those who show enmity towards the Imams 

Ayatullah al-Sayyid Ali al-Hussani al-Sistani.

https://www.sistani.org/english/book/48/2132/

Quote

nawÁsib—those who are enemies of one of the Imams or Lady FÁÔimah ZahrÁÞ (Peace be upon)—

Àyatullah  Shaykh Íusain WaÎÐd Khurasani

http://wahidkhorasani.com/Data/Books/ISLAMIC%20LAWS.pdf

-------------------------

Don't accuse the Scholars of been Hypocrites because a person do not understand or can't comprehend the issue or an outsider posing as us -is using some point to deflect shame and humiliation from their revered ones so their sect may prevail. Truth will be told. Hypocrites and Oppressors will be identified and will pass it down to our generations.  


What the scholars have said My understanding as a layman is and what we all with commonsense already know that you don't use derogatory words in front of a person who grew up revering them, its common sense. This can;t be used to say we become the umbrella group which for political reason defined all to be good and they can't be criticized  to be ALL inclusive. Politically it was a good move to keep ALL faction happy. Religion says otherwise ( 1:7). 

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13 hours ago, islam25 said:

Brother why complicate it.

Scholars have proohabited it.I suggest reason for it.

Waiting for your more appropriate reason.

Using profanity language is prohibited, discussing  historical discourse is not.

Now can you articulate concisely this comment of yours; Because it has become source hatred amongst Muslims that has damaged the Islam.

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55 minutes ago, power said:

Using profanity language is prohibited, discussing  historical discourse is not.

Now can you articulate concisely this comment of yours; Because it has become source hatred amongst Muslims that has damaged the Islam.

I never said that historic facts is prohibited. But cursing has been proohabited, and we should respect they futwa of marajas.

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8 hours ago, islam25 said:

I never said that historic facts is prohibited. But cursing has been proohabited, and we should respect they futwa of marajas.

 Why are you avoiding my question?

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Other than starting this controversial thread, the OP has not engaged in the discussion. 

23 hours ago, Guest Quran and Itrah said:

I'm going to email Sayed Sistani and Sayed Ali Khamanei about this, citing the behaviour i am witnessing and i hope if you people don't listen to me, you will to the ulema.

^ This is the reason the topic is still open.

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Guest Pscholgical Warfare
On 5/18/2020 at 11:37 AM, YaAli223 said:

These days, there are many shia's who claim that they should not curse the sahaba (Abu bakr, Omar and Uthman for example). They give the example that the Prophet(saawaws) never cursed some of the sahaba, and if he(saawaws) did not curse them, we should not. What is your opinion about it.

In an academic/intellectual/rational/logical Discussion following question would have been asked to get clarification before Opportunist Agents introduce their own agenda (Now where in the post it mentioned " Public Cursing" )

OP 

1) What is your definition of a Sahaba?

2) Where did this definition come from - the Source ( Is it the Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) or Sunnah? 

3) What is your understanding of a Curse? Is it the profane/derogatory Word/Language ? 

4) Who was involved in Saqifa, Battle of Jamal, Battle of Siffin and Karbala. Where these outsiders ? That they oppressed, killed each other? 

5) There were 100,000 Plus people at the Last Hajj. 

6) Most Muslims can't even name more than few people who were present during the First 23 years of Islam. 

7) Generalizing an issue is not appropriate. If you have a question regarding handful of people and what is the opinion based on Historical Events. Is a proper way to go about learning different opinions. 

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Guest Quran and Itrah
47 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

Other than starting this controversial thread, the OP has not engaged in the discussion. 

This is the reason the topic is still open.

May Allah reward the team for their good judgement in wanting to wait for the verdict of our ulema. As you know, they take time in responding.

I will post the reply as soon as i get it, insha Allah.

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Guest Pschological Warfare
33 minutes ago, Guest Quran and Itrah said:

May Allah reward the team for their good judgement in wanting to wait for the verdict of our ulema. As you know, they take time in responding.

I will post the reply as soon as i get it, insha Allah.

Mr/Ms. Guest question is not directed to all responding. But People involve do have the right to the following.

Your email content. To see if your even able to articulate the matter in a proper way. 

Second. Who did you email as their are many Marja-e-Taqlid. With different opinions. 

Is this a Taqlid issue? 

If so, Who's Taqlid "Shiachat" will be in? 

Threats/strong arming and making it legal so - follow my way or I will complain is not our way. 

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Why should one curse anyone? Instead of cursing darkness, light a candle. Be luminous yourself. You think that some of the sahaba were bad. Alright. Be good yourself. 

That community passed away. What they earned belongs to them, and what you earn belongs to you: you will not be answerable for their deeds. [Quran 2:134]

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34 minutes ago, thegreenleaf said:

Why should one curse anyone? Instead of cursing darkness, light a candle. Be luminous yourself. You think that some of the sahaba were bad. Alright. Be good yourself. 

That community passed away. What they earned belongs to them, and what you earn belongs to you: you will not be answerable for their deeds. [Quran 2:134]

Who Compiled the Book that you are quoting from?

Who's account of History is mentioned in Sahah Bukhari and Muslims and others books followed to drive Faith and Fiqh? 

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