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In the Name of God بسم الله

Al Kafi and ‘shirk’

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1 hour ago, Fouad4 said:

I was debating with some salafi/Sunni and they brought up a Hadith saying that the imams know the unseen and know when they will die and are basically omniscient. 

What is our response to this?

 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235034818-a-dialogue-on-your-understanding-of-shirk/?tab=comments#comment-2879294

https://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm

What is your definition and understanding of Shirk? 

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1 hour ago, Fouad4 said:

I was debating with some salafi/Sunni and they brought up a Hadith saying that the imams know the unseen and know when they will die and are basically omniscient. 

What is our response to this?

Paste hadith here.

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1 hour ago, Fouad4 said:

some salafi/Sunni and they brought up a Hadith saying that the imams know the unseen and know when they will die and are basically omniscient.

Only Allah is Omniscient. Looks like the people you are debating with are exaggerating about Shias. 

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This is a sahih hadith from Al Kafi. I dont think there is any hadith in which imam said we know unseen. They only know, when Allah reveals to them which is in accordance with Quranic verse.IMG-20200518-WA0103.thumb.jpg.2192ff5f0dadffde03e95fda1018e172.jpg

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1 hour ago, Fouad4 said:

I was debating with some salafi/Sunni and they brought up a Hadith saying that the imams know the unseen and know when they will die and are basically omniscient. 

What is our response to this?

I asked this question once, check https://www.al-islam.org/ask/is-it-true-that-the-prophets-and-imams-know-the-unseen-if-so-what-is-the-evidence-for-this-belief/amina-inloes

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Salam,

First of all, outline to him what the Shias believe, i will link you to al-Islam.org articles to reference what i am saying;

1. The Prophets of God and the Imams were mortals. They ate, drank, had the same bodily functions. Shaykh-Saduq affirms this, and he is arguably one of our greatest classical scholar, born of the Dua of Imam al-Mahdi ajfs. Shaykh-Saduq affirms the Prophet and the Imams live, die, weep, fear, eat, and if they disobey Allah, can be punished (but they never did, and never would). These are slaves of Allah, not partners. Nothing happens save what Allah allows to happen, and nothing is independent of him. Find the full article here: https://www.al-islam.org/a-shiite-creed-shaykh-saduq/denial-excess-and-delegation

2. None but Allah has complete knowledge of the unseen. Please consider the following narrations in Rijal al-Kashi;


حمدويه، قال حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن ابن المغيرة، قال، : كنت عند أبي الحسن (عليه السلام) أنا و يحيى بن عبد الله بن الحسن (عليه السلام) فقال يحيى جعلت فداك إنهم يزعمون أنك تعلم الغيب فقال سبحان الله سبحان الله ضع يدك على رأسي فو الله ما بقيت في جسدي شعرة و لا في رأسي إلا قامت، قال، ثم قال لا و الله ما هي إلا وراثة عن رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم
 

530. Hamdawayh who said: narrated to us Ya'qub bin Yazid from Ibn Abi Umayr from Ibn al-Mughira who said: I was with Abi al-Hasan عليه السلام together with Yahya bin Abdallah bin al-Hasan, so Yahya said to him: may I be made your ransom, they think that you know the Ghayb (unseen), so he عليه السلام said: praise be to Allah, praise be to Allah, put your hand upon my hair, for by Allah - there is not a hair in my body nor upon my head except that it has stood (i.e. in apprehension of their false claim), he (Ibn al-Mughira) said: then he عليه السلام said: no by Allah, it (i.e. the glimpses of the unseen) is not but an inheritance from the messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم.

 

حمدويه، قال حدثنا يعقوب، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن شعيب، عن أبي بصير، قال : قلت لأبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) إنهم يقولون قال و ما يقولون قلت يقولون تعلم قطر المطر و عدد النجوم و ورق الشجر و وزن ما في البحر و عدد التراب، فرفع يده إلى السماء، و قال سبحان الله سبحان الله لا و الله ما يعلم هذا إلا الله
 

532. Hamdawayh who said: narrated to us Ya’qub from Ibn Abi Umayr from Shuayb from Abi Basir who said: I said to Abi Abdillah عليه السلام – they do say, he said: and what do they say? I said: they say that you know the number of the drops in the rain, and the number of the stars, and the number of leaves in all the trees, and the weight of what is in the ocean, and the number of sand particles, so he عليه السلام raised his hand to the sky and said: praise be to Allah, praise be to Allah, no by Allah, no one knows this except for Allah.

 

3. Ayatullah Kamal Hayderi addresses the issue of Ghuluw and exaggeration: https://www.iqraonline.net/reflecting-on-the-fundamentals-every-tradition-of-ghuluw-in-the-shia-hadith-literature-are-fabrications-sayyid-kamal-al-ḥaydari-lesson-19/

 

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I also want to remind everyone of the Dua of Imam al-Ridha (عليه السلام), the eighth Imam, and Shaykh as-Saduq quotes this dua in his 'A Shiite Creed':

"And Imam 'Ali ar-Rida, on whom be peace, used to say in his prayer:

O God, I seek absolution from Thee in respect of Thy Strength and Power.18 There is neither strength nor power save in Thee. O God, I declare myself before Thee as having nothing to do with those who assert in respect of us things which we ourselves do not know. O God, to Thee belongs creation and Thou possessest the power of command;

“Thee (alone) do we worship and from Thee do we seek help” (Qur'an 1:5).

O God, Thou art our Creator, and the Creator of our ancestors, near and remote. O God, none deserves lordship save Thee; and divinity befits none except to Thee. So do Thou curse the Christians who belittled Thy greatness, and do Thou curse those who declare Thee to resemble Thy Creature. O God, verily we are Thy slaves and the sons of Thy slaves. We have no power over ourselves in respect of profit, loss, death, life or resurrection (nushur).

O God, he who asserts that we (the Imams) have the power of creation and providing (for mankind) - we (Imams) seek absolution from Thee in respect of him, an absolution similar to that of Jesus, son of Mary, in respect of the Christians. O God, we have never called upon them to assert what they do assert; so do not punish us for what they say and forgive us for what they allege.

“My Lord! leave not one of the disbelievers in the land” (Qur'an 71:26).

“If Thou shouldst leave them, they will mislead Thy slaves and will beget none save lewd ingrates”(Qur'an 71:27)."

 

https://www.al-islam.org/a-shiite-creed-shaykh-saduq/denial-excess-and-delegation

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1 hour ago, Fouad4 said:

I was debating with some salafi/Sunni and they brought up a Hadith saying that the imams know the unseen and know when they will die and are basically omniscient. 

What is our response to this?

The response to this is that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says in Quran that He (عزّ وجلّ) gives knowledge of unseen to whom He (عزّ وجلّ) likes. So, there is no issue if Imam say they are given knowledge of unseen. Albeit, neither imams nor Shias claim that they are omniscient like Allah (عزّ وجلّ). They are our guide and Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is above them.

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My reservation with a lot of these threads is when you are debating someone at the minimum know the source material for both sects.

If you are stuck on about a Hadith from al-kafi (that I assume you don’t even know if it exists) and don’t know how to respond than you shouldn’t be debating in first place. This makes us look bad for not knowing our own books. 

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17 hours ago, Fouad4 said:

I was debating with some salafi/Sunni and they brought up a Hadith saying that the imams know the unseen and know when they will die and are basically omniscient. 

What is our response to this?

Not only Imams but even there is evidence Awlias too know unseen.

And you get many references in suuni school thought that Awlias know unseen.

And 

This knowing of unseen is even mentioned in Quran.                                     But yes Imams know only what Allah has given them.It is their personal knowledge but what given to them by Allah.

Shias don't believe that Imams are omniscient.

 

 

Edited by Hadi5
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The same can also be asked that how did  the prophet know that there will be caliphate for 30 years after him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as mentioned in sunni books?

Edited by Muslim2010
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On 5/18/2020 at 1:24 AM, just_passing_by said:

My reservation with a lot of these threads is when you are debating someone at the minimum know the source material for both sects.

If you are stuck on about a Hadith from al-kafi (that I assume you don’t even know if it exists) and don’t know how to respond than you shouldn’t be debating in first place. This makes us look bad for not knowing our own books. 

I’m aware of our books and I provided a response but they are rather ignorant. Might I add it was also a 5 on 1 so responding is hard to people who disregard everything. 

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