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In the Name of God بسم الله

How do you know god exists?

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Just now, khamosh21 said:

understandbly... i used to have faith as well, and i would argue the same when i believed...

however im assuming claims of the Quran, i should be able to verify them independently to an extent.

e.g. We use intellect to prove Quran's claim of Tawheed

We use science to verify scientific claims...

im trying to use some history to attempt and verify historical claims...

is that not logical?

Are you serious? How is anything you stated previously proving that God did not send messengers to all people? This is something you can't disprove no matter how hard you try. From my very fallible lens, I see monotheistic religions going bad, embracing paganism, whilst from yours you see the opposite. We need evidence to believe in your claim but frankly, you can never prove nor disprove it. Thus the logical thing to do would be to assess the Quran in a way you are eligible to assess it! To assess history with absolute certainty, from a stance of disbelief in the Quran, would require you to be an immortal all-encompassing being! 

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The natural outcome of cause and effect. Do you believe anyone who will go to hell will do so unjustly?   Why not include the “why” question on the subject of worldly pains as well?

There is no proof that will satisfy an unbeliever. It is a futile effort. 

0kay, you followed a path, but you didn't write the pathway signs for yourself. So now you 180 and need to go back and start again. You can always read your own writing, inshallah. Gnosticism i

3 minutes ago, A_A said:

Are you serious? How is anything you stated previously proving that God did not send messengers to all people? This is something you can't disprove no matter how hard you try. From my very fallible lens, I see monotheistic religions going bad, embracing paganism, whilst from yours you see the opposite. We need evidence to believe in your claim but frankly, you can never prove nor disprove it. Thus the logical thing to do would be to assess the Quran in a way you are eligible to assess it! To assess history with absolute certainty, from a stance of disbelief in the Quran, would require you to be an immortal all-encompassing being!

Thanks for your reply, it might be better than to argue with me as you would with a non-believer i.e. no need to bring verses which can't be independently verified.

At least with science and intellect there is an attempt to verify. History is much more difficult topic for ppl to agree on. Muslims and Shias can barely agree on history among themselves, can't really expect them to agree on anything before that.

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Adding to this thread, I created a separate post but thought it'd be better I contribute to this one as well

 ________________

I've been having a discussion with another forum member on here regarding a video I came across by Dr. Robert Sapolsky.

So far this seems to be the most rational explanation put forth explaining the creation/role of religion and a higher power within humans, from a biological/evolutionary perspective.

As the saying goes "its all in your head" ..... maybe it actually is?  

I think disputing this worldview is a necessary aspect of any effective rebuttal against agnosticism/atheism.

What are your thoughts?

Quick 3 minute clip: 

 

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7 hours ago, user5000 said:

Adding to this thread, I created a separate post but thought it'd be better I contribute to this one as well

 ________________

I've been having a discussion with another forum member on here regarding a video I came across by Dr. Robert Sapolsky.

So far this seems to be the most rational explanation put forth explaining the creation/role of religion and a higher power within humans, from a biological/evolutionary perspective.

As the saying goes "its all in your head" ..... maybe it actually is?  

I think disputing this worldview is a necessary aspect of any effective rebuttal against agnosticism/atheism.

If it is “all in your head”, then so if this statement itself “all in your head”. 

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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On 5/14/2020 at 3:23 PM, hasanhh said:

How do l know?

All the created ayats outside my window.

How do I know?

Because things have happened to me that I cannot explain rationally. Things that people will never believe, but that I swear happened.

1. I was flat broke and out of gasoline in 2006. I had absolutely no cash on me. I decided to get my Triple A card out of my wallet to get an emergency 2.5 gallons of gas to get me the half a mile back to home. Inside my wallet was a $10 bill that hadn't been there previously, otherwise I would have stopped for gas.

2. Just recently I put my prayer rug away for the night after Isha. I woke up at 6:30am and it was rolled out on my floor, facing Qiblah.

That's just two

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4 hours ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

How do I know?

Because things have happened to me that I cannot explain rationally. Things that people will never believe, but that I swear happened.

1. I was flat broke and out of gasoline in 2006. I had absolutely no cash on me. I decided to get my Triple A card out of my wallet to get an emergency 2.5 gallons of gas to get me the half a mile back to home. Inside my wallet was a $10 bill that hadn't been there previously, otherwise I would have stopped for gas.

2. Just recently I put my prayer rug away for the night after Isha. I woke up at 6:30am and it was rolled out on my floor, facing Qiblah.


That's just two

Or it could be proof of poor memory.

Edited by eThErEaL
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Because my memory isn't that poor.

I'd know if I got out of bed and laid my prayer rug out on the floor. I'd also know if I had money in my wallet.

I get that you don't want to believe in God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) because then you might have to change your lifestyle, but I'm not making this claim to try and minister to you. I'm making it because it happened to me and the reality of what that implies scares me half to death.

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3 hours ago, Abdul-Hadi said:

Because my memory isn't that poor.

maybe it is, how would you know?

Quote

I'd know if I got out of bed and laid my prayer rug out on the floor. I'd also know if I had money in my wallet.

you wouldn’t know.  Memory fails.  Memory is sometimes even self created.  Memory or lack thereof is not something you can rely on for knowing the “ultimate truth“.  

Quote

I get that you don't want to believe in God (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) because then you might have to change your lifestyle, but I'm not making this claim to try and minister to you. I'm making it because it happened to me and the reality of what that implies scares me half to death.

  I don’t “believe” in God.  I don’t have to since I know that God is.  

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I am having the following argument with an atheist. Allah, Who is Perfect and Needless and Omniscient, creates. Creation implies a purpose, a purpose implies a need. Allah created man to know and serve Him. According to the atheist, this entire sequence is self-refuting, since the Perfect, Needless, and Omniscient One would not have a need to create anything, since creation implies a relationship between the Creator and created that involves interdependence and thus results in a less-than-perfect Deity. Does anyone have a good refutation of this line of argument?

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On 5/15/2020 at 2:46 AM, user5000 said:

Where is the proof that god exists,

God does not exist. God is No thing.

On 5/15/2020 at 2:46 AM, user5000 said:

why does causation, existence, and all that is unexplainable have to be a god, rather than something unknown.

Ok, it is unknown, because nobody knows it, how can you define nothing.
That which does not have any color, taste, smell, temperature, form, nothingness is beyond your sense organs.

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1 hour ago, Shahrukh K said:

Ok, it is unknown, because nobody knows it, how can you define nothing.
That which does not have any color, taste, smell, temperature, form, nothingness is beyond your sense organs.

Indeed, we call the unknown “God”.  We do so because it is supposed to be a more radical way of acknowledging that we do not know the ultimate source of reality.  We say that the ultimate source of reality is not known to be limited and not even known to be unlimited.  We are so radical in our unknowing of ultimate reality that we free ourselves from the belief that it is limited and we also free ourselves from the belief that it is unlimited. A Muslim is supposed to be a radical Atheist, not a an ordinary atheist.  Ordinary Atheism doesn’t really cut it.

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On 6/11/2020 at 9:11 PM, eThErEaL said:

I don’t “believe” in God.  I don’t have to since I know that God is.

 

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On 6/13/2020 at 11:25 AM, Northwest said:

interdependence

god existed before creation thus was not dependent on creation and this did not change after creation however creation was dependent and always will be dependent on the creator as the creation only exists due to the creator.

1 way dependence, not 2 way.

On 6/13/2020 at 11:25 AM, Northwest said:

purpose, a purpose implies a need

the need is that of the creation for the creator, not the other way around.

God has unlimited power and it is only natural that creation is born from that.

 

this atheist like many is just a wise guy trying to play with words so don't bother arguing

 

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Posted (edited)

Well, it's been a minute since I've created this thread. Nonetheless, I'd like to briefly check back in. 

I've come to the conclusion: It is clear, God exists, and Islam is a beautiful religion, for those who truly reflect and seek to understand it.

I found that one must go beyond the mind and it’s binary way of thinking. Knowledge and judgment cannot be based solely on sensory experience.

You must accept that there will be things that will be unknown, or better yet "hidden" knowledge, beyond our comprehension and understanding. Seeking an answer to any and every little thing will only have you running around a theological loop with no end, and no answer. 

Though not the case for everyone, It takes time and effort to truly understand God and the beauty of the religion of Islam.

On your journey of perfecting this "tawhid" --  all else falls into place. Everything makes sense and you take on a new perspective on the meaning of life. It is truly a beautiful thing. 

Hope you all have a blessed Ramadan.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed to this thread!  :)

@hasanhh @notme @eThErEaL @dragonxx @Reza @A_A (and everyone else in this thread)

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Also, a beautiful sermon I found from Imam Ali in Nahjul-Balagha I thought I'd share regarding tawhid and understanding God almighty.

Long but worth the read.

 

“The foremost in religion ( deen) is to know Him. The literal meaning of deen is obedience and its popular sense is a code. Whether the literal sense is taken or the popular one, in either case, if the mind is devoid of any conception of Divinity, there would be neither a question of obedience, nor the following of any code. This is so because when there is no aim, there is no point in advancing towards it. Where there is no object in view, there is no sense in making efforts to achieve it. Nevertheless, when the nature and guiding faculty of man bring him in contact with a superior Authority and his taste for obedience and impulse of submission subjugates him before a Deity, he finds himself bound by certain limitations as against abject freedom of activity. These very limitations are deen (religion) whose point of commencement is knowledge of All h and acknowledgment of His Being.  “After pointing out the essentials of the Divine knowledge, Am r alMu’min n has described its important components and conditions. He holds those stages of such knowledge which people generally regard as the point of highest approach to be insufficient. He says that its first stage is that with the natural sense of search for the unknown and the guidance of conscience, or on hearing from the followers of religions an image of the Unseen Being known as All h is formed in the mind. This image, in fact, is the forerunner of the obligation to thinking and reflecting and seeking His knowledge. But those who love idleness, or are under pressure of the environment, do not undertake this search despite the creation of such an image, and the image fails to get testified. In this case, they remain deprived of the Divine knowledge. Since access to the stage of testifying after the formation of image is by volition, they deserve to be questioned about it. But one who is moved by the power of this image goes further and considers thinking and reflecting as being necessary. In this way, one reaches the next stage in the attainment of the Divine knowledge, namely to search for the Creator through observing the diversity of the creation and the species of beings. This is so because every picture is a solid and inflexible guide to the existence of its painter, and every effect is to the deed of its cause. When he casts his glance around him, he does not find a single thing which might have come into existence without the act of a maker, so much so that he does not find the sign of a footstep without a walker nor a building without a builder. How can he comprehend that this blue sky with the sun and the moon in its expanse and the earth with the exuberance of its grass and flowers could have come into existence without the deed of a Creator? Therefore, after observing all that exists in the world and the regulated system of the entire creation, no one can help but conclude that there is a Creator for this world of diversities because existence cannot come out of non-existence, nor can existence sprout forth from nothingness.  “The Holy Qur’ n has pointed out to this reasoning thus: What?! Is there any doubt about All h originating the heavens and the earth? (Qur’ n, 14:10). “But this phase would also be insufficient if this testimony in favor of All h is tarnished by belief in the divinity of some other deity.  “The third stage is that His existence should be acknowledged along with believing in His Unity and Oneness. Without this, the testimony to All h’s existence cannot be complete because if more gods are believed in, He would not be One, whereas it is necessary that He should be One. The reason is that in case of more than one god, the question would arise about whether one of them created all this creation or all of them did so together. If one of them created it, there should be some difference that distinguishes him; otherwise, he would be accorded preferential status without reason, which is unacceptable to the mind. If all have created it collectively, then the status has only two forms: Either he cannot perform his functions without the assistance of others, or he is above the need of their assistance. The first case means he is incapable and in need of others, while the other case means that there are several regular performers of a single act, and the fallacy of both has already been shown. If we assume that all the gods performed the act of creation by dividing it among themselves, all the creation would not bear the same relationship towards the creator. This is so because each creature will bear relationship only to its own creator, whereas every creature should have one and the same relationship to all creators. This is so because all the creation should have one and the same relationship to all the creators as all the created in their capacity to accept effect, and all the creators, in their capacity to produce effect, should be similar. In short, there is no way but to acknowledge Him as One because to believe in numerous creators permits no possibility of the existence of any other thing and destruction proves implicit of the earth, sky and everything in creation. All h, the most Glorified One, has expressed His argument in the following words: Had there been in them (the heavens and the earth) gods other than All h, they both would have been in disarray (Qur’ n, 21:22).  “The fourth stage is that All h should be regarded as being free of all defects and deficiencies, devoid of a physical body, form, image, similarity, status of place or time, motion, stillness, incapability and ignorance. This is so because there can be neither deficiency nor defect in the perfect Being, nor can anyone be deemed like Him because all these attributes bring down a being from the high status of the Creator to the low status of the created. That is why along with Unity, All h has held purity from deficiency to be of an equal importance:  Say: He (All h) is the One (and only God). All h is self-Sufficient. He does not beget, nor is He begotten. And there is none like Him (Qur’ n, 112:1-4).  Vision does not perceive Him, whereas He perceives (all) visions; He is the Subtle, the all-Aware (Qur’ n, 6:104). So do not coin any similitudes to All h; verily All h knows (everything) while you do not (Qur’ n, 16:74). 

Nothing whatever is like Him, and He is the One Who hears and Who sees (all things) (Qur’ n, 42:11).  “The fifth phase of completing His Knowledge is that attributes should not be put on Him from outside lest there should be duality in His Oneness. Deviating from its proper connotation, Unity may fall into the labyrinth of one-in-three and three-in-one because His Being is not a combination of essence and form so that attributes may cling to Him like the smell of the flowers or brightness of the stars. Rather, He is the fountainhead of all attributes and needs no medium for manifesting His perfect Attributes. If He is named Omniscient, it is because the signs of his knowledge are manifest. If He is called Omnipotent, it is because every particle points to His Omnipotence and Activity. If the power to listen or to see is attributed to Him, it is because the cohesion of the entire creation and its administration cannot be done without hearing or seeing. But the existence of these attributes in Him cannot be held in the same way as in His creation. One should be capable of knowing only after he acquires knowledge, or he should be powerful and strong only after energy runs into his limbs because taking attributes as separate from his being would connote duality: Where there is duality, unity disappears. 
“This is how Am r al-Mu’min n has rejected the idea of attributes being added to His Being, presenting Unity in its true significance and did not allow Unity to be tainted with stains of multiplicity. This does not mean that adjectives cannot at all be attributed to Him. This will be giving support to those who are groping in the dark abyss of negativism, although every nook and corner in the entire existence is brimming with His attributes, and every particle of creation stands to testify that He has knowledge, He is powerful, He hears and He sees. He nurtures under His care and allows growth under His mercy. The intention is that for Him, nothing can be suggested to serve as an adjunct to Him because His Self includes attributes and His attributes connote His Self. Let us learn this very theme in the words of Im m Ab Abdull h Ja`far ibn Muhammed as-S diq , comparing it with the belief in Unity adopted by other religions, then appreciating who the exponent of the true concept of Unity truly is!”

Talib (Martyred in 8th Century A.D.), Imam Ali ibn Abu. Nahjul-Balagha: Path of Eloquence (Volume One) (p. 74-79). AuthorHouse. Kindle Edition. 

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7 hours ago, user5000 said:

or better yet "hidden" knowledge, beyond our comprehension and understanding.

Other than Ayat 6:103, everything else is a Sign.

Not knowing something does not make it "hidden."

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9 hours ago, hasanhh said:

Other than Ayat 6:103, everything else is a Sign.

Not knowing something does not make it "hidden."

I may have said that wrong, apologies. I was referring to "Ulum Al-Ghaib (The Invisible-Unknowable)", or the "unseen"

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