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In the Name of God بسم الله

How do you know god exists?

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1 hour ago, user5000 said:

 

People begin to sound like mystics when they speak of such things. As complex as nature, the world, and the universe is, we speak of things like interdimensional beings such as Jinns, angels, or a satan operating under a veil within our current reality, when there is absolutely 0 evidence of this, Not one shred, diminishing the complexity of this world and making things sound like a fairytale. Rather, it seems to be something that germinated from early human's unscientific, irrational minds that tried their best to explain why bad things happen to good people, why good people sometimes do bad things, and why there's so much needless suffering in the world? Am I wrong? If so, why?

Three different explanations, please refute them.

1.Socialization. We are taught by their parents and other family members to believe in the devil, and so when one is brought up with such a belief it takes on a force of factuality that is impervious to criticism.

2.Group membership. We (those who follow abrahamic religions) are part of groups or communities that include a variety of beliefs, like belief in the devil, and since people receive so much from becoming part of this group — community, solidarity, camaraderie, heritage, etc.—we consume ideologies without much inquiry, as the benefits of becoming part of the group overshadow the benefits of rational thought and empiricism.

3.Existential angst. A lot of people find the ambiguity of life threatening. It may be realistic but it may be existentially worrying. So it goes with god and the Devil. People would rather believe in their existence than embrace the unnerving fact that we are here in this world for unknowable reasons, with no mystical deities in pearly or fiery realms presiding over.

Yeah that 14 year old atheist tactic doesn't work on me. The good ol' "completely disregard what I say, then unload an unrelated spiel that you came up with in the shower". 

 

The proof is in the linguistic miracles of the Quran, the casual predictions of the prophet, the fact that nobody behaved like the 12 Imams. Nobody else talked the talk and walked the walk. If it was just Imam Ali, then sure, you could say he's a historical curiosity, but there were 12 of him, each one lived through cartoonish levels of tragedy. Very very arrogant of you to say there is absolutely 0 evidence

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0kay, you followed a path, but you didn't write the pathway signs for yourself. So now you 180 and need to go back and start again. You can always read your own writing, inshallah. Gnosticism i

I have read your posting and you have some good points but you overlook one important aspect of religion. Economists know that a sound currency depends on people believing that the currency is so

There is no proof that will satisfy an unbeliever. It is a futile effort. 

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7 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

This powerful Being didn't need to give satan permission to do what he wants, He could have just said, "no iblees, you can't misguide them, you're going to jail, your story ends here". That would be the best and most WISE form of help, prevention is better than cure, isn't that what Islam teaches?

As for the last anecdote - i agree, God should have every right to be furious with us if reality was also unveiled for us, and we still decided to sin. Like God would get furious with Prophets (Yunus) - it makes sense. For us istead God gets furious with us while having hidden reality from us and everything of the unseen, and expects us to follow along with what less than 1% of the creation that is now dead told us to do. While we live in this psychotic world. It's not really a fair test or fair expectations.

What He did, He did according to His infinite wisdom and foresight. Even the angels questioned God on some things, but He said to them "I know what you don't know". Besides, a world without the devil wouldn't be that different, because we're surrounded by people who aren't touched by the devil: Children. Yet children still get greedy, gluttonous, mean, lazy. The devil is only playing with our built in human nature, we don't need him to fail. Or think of Ramadan, a time when devils are chained up, only able to misguide us if we ourselves approach them.

 

Yeah that is valid concern. But I think that worry doesn't apply to those who are really really pious. God  may not show them angels or jinn, but He will show them His hand. Things happen to them like they'd be pondering a question, then a stranger bumps into them and blurts the answer out (happened to my teacher)

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8 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I would like to challenge that first claim. A study of world history and religions will show us that no one has same teachings, they are not even similar in many cases, and where they are similar they are mostly wrong. For example, we can take Chinese, African, Native American (North/South), Pacific Islanders (Samoa, Maoris) - all of these nations do not have any philosophy, heavenly book, system of prophethood, that looks anything like Abrahamic traditions. They have some similarities in that they all worshipped some form of nature - a common issue throughout the world, worshipping some form of unseen diety whether it be form of a statue or invisible in the skies. We can also look at Viking, Nordic, Greek, Roman, and Hindu religions and see that they to share a lot in paganism, but not really much else.

I would say religions are a lot like empires, they rise and fall with time. You claims of people performing miracles can not be verified. And amazing writing in my view is not a miracle, it's just amazing writing and our wishful thinking in the imaginary...

And for your last paragraph, it sounds a lot like a Pascal's Wager - betting on an afterlife.

 

Interesting that you did not challenge my cause and effect explanation. 

Regarding your counterargument.

Firstly, you need to acknowledge that the 124,000 Prophets were sent to every nation, but obviously, many probably were killed before they made an influence. As you said, people were already worshipping "something". This provides three points:

1. The people would have gotten frustrated when a man, sometimes from their own community, tells them their gods, and idols are fake. This lead to Prophets being killed.

2. As seen in the Quran, the people who rejected the Prophets probably met a punishment

3. The Prophets gave the supply of religion, people were already demanding for. 

Point 3 is exactly why the atheists are to be pitied, for they reject their own self, the satisfaction of following the right path. Everyone already has the natural inner search for a creator, or religion. All the Prophets were sent to do, is follow the right path, and follow it correctly. In fact, the basic preaching of all the Prophets was a call to monotheism, not a proof of the existence of God. They negated the worthiness of idols, of the sun, the moon and the stars, to be worshipped, so that man's inner and natural thirst for worship should not be satisfied by recourse to external objects such as these and they might, instead, seek all their aims and values in a firm arc ascending to the true object of worship. 

My claims of people performing miracles can be confirmed if one understands. If you accept the Quran as the word of Allah, then you will accept the Prophets and the miracles they performed. As for the other miracles, for example Imam Ali lifting the door in Khaybar, a door that took 40+ men to lift, he lifted with ease. When I read the ahadith from the time this happened, there are many accounts that tell the story. It is literally in history. It wouldn't be in history if it was a fake. If the battle of Khaybar is in history, then it means it is true, since the people experiencing it were held accountable. If we know the battle took place, then all the people who saw it have told us that Imam Ali lifted the door, and they are primary, truthful sources. Many ahadith can be explained by the sheer number of people reporting it. It is absurd to think that so many people would fabricate the same event, with some people who did not even know others.

The Quran is not just amazing writing, it is impossible writing. The Quran has scientific verses, every single one has either not happened yet, or it was true. 1400 years ago, you think some illiterate arab pagan would just think he wants to say all of this, all made up by him? It is simply impossible to think like this. A book written 1400 years ago which is 100% truthful until today, and it still has relevance today. We are lucky to have this book today, because it is a guide and a miracle for us.

As for my last paragraph, I don't know some Pascal, but I do know that this wager was taught by my beautiful Imams, 1100+ years ago.

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5 minutes ago, notme said:

There is no proof that will satisfy an unbeliever. It is a futile effort. 

These people are searching for the truth, all we can do is provide it, and hope they have an unbiased heart to allow them to understand it. These people used to be muslims, and might just be going through a difficult time, we should try to help.

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14 minutes ago, notme said:

There is no proof that will satisfy an unbeliever. It is a futile effort. 

True, but how do we define who an unbeliever not worth engaging with is?

Is it after a thread on a forum?

Is it after they don't accept when one discusses for an hour?

 

If someone shows receptiveness snd humility and is engaging with answers, we should be patient and give them as much information to make a fair an informed decision. We can never truly know someones heart or to whom it is futile. Allah alone knows.

People reflect, mature, grow, are exposed to information differently, have many preconceived biases to overcome.

It's difficult to get the vast majority of people to change their mind on any deeply held belief.

 

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2 hours ago, user5000 said:

Very well put... seriously. This is the first post in this thread that definitely has me thinking. You walked the fine line between human biology/religion almost perfectly, refuted my previous post without even directly addressing it.... thanks for your contribution to this discussion!

Alhmdullilah, feel free to let me know any thoughts you have in time as you're thinking over this, i believe in always being open to my views being challenged. There is no ego in this, truth is what matters, whether i like it or am wrong etc

I'm not here to change your mind, just to present things to give you the ability to choose yourself and make a more informed choice whatever that is.

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On 5/17/2020 at 12:30 AM, KumayI said:

Interesting that you did not challenge my cause and effect explanation. 

Regarding your counterargument.

Firstly, you need to acknowledge that the 124,000 Prophets were sent to every nation, but obviously, many probably were killed before they made an influence. As you said, people were already worshipping "something". This provides three points:

1. The people would have gotten frustrated when a man, sometimes from their own community, tells them their gods, and idols are fake. This lead to Prophets being killed.

2. As seen in the Quran, the people who rejected the Prophets probably met a punishment

3. The Prophets gave the supply of religion, people were already demanding for. 

 

I don't think lack of evidence should be a way to make conclusions. Is there any evidence to show each nation got a prophet and went through punishment etc like described in the Quran? There is no evidence to show 124,000 prophets came. There is evidence of paganism in many places, paintings on caves, temples etc...lack of evidence should not be used to prove your point.

There should be a record of monotheism in history much like there is of paganism... I'm sure some Prophets were successful in their mission, where are those monotheistic communities or temples dedicated to One God? Why is the type of monotheism preached by Islam not really seen throughout history?

On 5/17/2020 at 12:30 AM, KumayI said:

My claims of people performing miracles can be confirmed if one understands. If you accept the Quran as the word of Allah, then you will accept the Prophets and the miracles they performed. As for the other miracles, for example Imam Ali lifting the door in Khaybar, a door that took 40+ men to lift, he lifted with ease. When I read the ahadith from the time this happened, there are many accounts that tell the story. It is literally in history. It wouldn't be in history if it was a fake. If the battle of Khaybar is in history, then it means it is true, since the people experiencing it were held accountable. If we know the battle took place, then all the people who saw it have told us that Imam Ali lifted the door, and they are primary, truthful sources. Many ahadith can be explained by the sheer number of people reporting it. It is absurd to think that so many people would fabricate the same event, with some people who did not even know others.

I don't see that as facts. Imam Ali lifting the door could very well be fabricated or added by over zealous lovers of Imam Ali. Yes a battle took place and Imam Ali led Muslims to victory, but if he broke the door and threw it hundreds of feet away? Or did he break the door and hold it over himself so people could cross? Did the Imam Hussain's  cut head really speak? We have books which speak about distortions in history, and many bigger so called facts from history are easily distorted, so there is no reason why I MUST accept Imam Ali broke that door the way it's described. By this very same logic sunnis have "history" about Abu Bakr and Omar which they also would argue is fact.

I'll also add that these type of narrations are found in every tradition of the world, I can't simply accept that Muslims throughout history have been honest, when they clearly have not! I'm not going to be biased just because i was born into Shia family and have been hearing Naray Haidaris for most of my life.

On 5/17/2020 at 12:30 AM, KumayI said:

The Quran is not just amazing writing, it is impossible writing. The Quran has scientific verses, every single one has either not happened yet, or it was true. 1400 years ago, you think some illiterate arab pagan would just think he wants to say all of this, all made up by him? It is simply impossible to think like this. A book written 1400 years ago which is 100% truthful until today, and it still has relevance today. We are lucky to have this book today, because it is a guide and a miracle for us.

1. Either it is amazing and miraculous writing - and some of the world is blind to this

2. Or it is really good writing, and conditioning and brain washing reinforces the idea that it is miraculous.

I don't feel like writing out a response to the above argument and discussing my doubts over the Quran.

 

 

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On 5/17/2020 at 12:30 AM, KumayI said:

Interesting that you did not challenge my cause and effect explanation. 

Regarding your counterargument.

Firstly, you need to acknowledge that the 124,000 Prophets were sent to every nation, but obviously, many probably were killed before they made an influence. As you said, people were already worshipping "something". This provides three points:

1. The people would have gotten frustrated when a man, sometimes from their own community, tells them their gods, and idols are fake. This lead to Prophets being killed.

2. As seen in the Quran, the people who rejected the Prophets probably met a punishment

3. The Prophets gave the supply of religion, people were already demanding for. 

 

Also wanted to add, despite how far we have made it in the world, there are still people who have not even heard of Prophet Muhammad, or whatever they have heard, it's next to nothing and it has no impact in their lives. There are still tribes in South America which don't have contact with outside world. Or there are people being born in slums and such poverty that they don't get a chance to explore any idea.

We have people and nations from throughout history that still are here and in their traditions there is no sign of any Prophets (e.g. maori, aborginal people of Australia etc), and these people were also not destroyed by any type of natural disaster.

I also ask why some nations are left to survive while others were destroyed? For example why are there millions of idol and cow worshipping hindus? Note that Hindusim predates Abrahamic religions.

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50 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

For example why are there millions of idol and cow worshipping hindus? Note that Hindusim predates Abrahamic religions.

l am not finding the Ayats, such as where it is revealed that we testify as to our origin before our births. And similar such Ayats.

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Posted (edited)

@khamosh21

Skimmed through some of your posts. Don't you dare say anything against the naray haideris! lol

No offence, but I sensed bitterness and some kind of bias from you. I think you should empty out any biases and pre-existing ill feelings towards religion and then start from the fundamentals again.

From reading some of the stuff you said, it seems that you must have had some flawed understanding of God and the other tenets of our faith from the start, but especially God. I'm certain there were serious gaps in your conception of God which led you to where you are today. I think you should begin doing research on understanding the belief of God, His tawhid, and His justice. (And then research the concepts of prophethood and Imamah, and then resurrection). Check out al-islam.org. Check out this book https://www.al-islam.org/revealer-messenger-message-sayyid-muhammad-baqir-al-sadr/part-1-revealer , it's by the great scholar great martyr Sayyid Baqir al Sadr. ( you too @user5000 please!), and also check out the works of Morteza Mutahhari. 

Also, I felt it was extremely wrong and for you to say, "God has veiled reality from us - reality of actions e.g. sins". It shows a lot of ignorance. But anyway, I'm just going to tell you to please do what I wrote above.

As for the purpose of creation, you can watch the following video but please do so without bias and bitterness. However, prioritize doing the above^^.

Keep in mind guys @user5000 and @khamosh21 that this is simply a small forum which isn't even as a busy as it used to be. Priotize doing research through books and good scholars. Again, this is a great website for books: https://www.al-islam.org/, however you may to have to take time to explore around a bit to find the really good stuff but the really good authors. They changes their interface recently too. 

Edited by AStruggler
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7 hours ago, AStruggler said:

Also, I felt it was extremely wrong and for you to say, "God has veiled reality from us - reality of actions e.g. sins". It shows a lot of ignorance. But anyway, I'm just going to tell you to please do what I wrote above.

Why is it wrong to say that? are you able to see a dead brother's meat in someone's mouth when they backbite?

As for the rest of your comments, I generally don't engage with people that make assumptions and personal analysis.

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9 hours ago, hasanhh said:

l am not finding the Ayats, such as where it is revealed that we testify as to our origin before our births. And similar such Ayats.

i wrote 2 paras above this as well... they kinda go together...

either way i would question what makes us think we are so important that we are the ulitmate creation or that our ideas and thoughts amount to anything in the grand scheme?

lets consider humanity's time in this universe vs the size/time of universe... we are nothing in that sense...

what's the reason for so many galaxies and stars of which we know very little? i find it hard to believe it's just a sign of God to impress us... they may a serve a greater purpose than we can ever understand and there maybe far greater creations in this vast universe...

and there is no way to gain certainty from Islamic history or any other history...

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9 hours ago, AStruggler said:

@khamosh21

Also, I felt it was extremely wrong and for you to say, "God has veiled reality from us - reality of actions e.g. sins". It shows a lot of ignorance. But anyway, I'm just going to tell you to please do what I wrote above.

Follow up question 2... what is better, to be told the answer or is it better to be shown?

would you rather be given answers which remain as mere concepts and reliance on other people, or realize and experience things as they should be?

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 I know that whoever created me must have not been created by someone. This is God - the one who is limitless, perfect and absolute.

This is a simple argument which many have ignored. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/16/2020 at 4:07 PM, notme said:

There is no proof that will satisfy an unbeliever. It is a futile effort. 

Terrible statement. You should always keep an open mind. I came on here with and laid out some things I've been contemplating, intending to have people with more knowledge on the subject refute them/give me a deeper explanation so I can have a clearer understanding, leading to a more informed decision. That's the purpose of this discussion.

I've been pretty receptive to the explanations put forth in this discussion so far, and many of them have me taking on a new view on some things I found questionable. So no, it is not a futile effort.

Edited by user5000
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

 I know that whoever created me must have not been created by someone. This is God - the one who is limitless, perfect and absolute.

This is a simple argument which many have ignored. 

Well, this may be a stretch, but acceptable to put forth when talking about something like the essence of humanity with little to work with; maybe you were created by some other life form/species?

Again, it's just an idea, and one that i'm highly doubtful of.... but still...

There is then the more acceptable "Theory of evolution" 

 

Edited by user5000
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Posted (edited)

Adding this to the thread. While surfing the interwebs I came across this article on Aljeezera and found it really helpful. Love when I come across a clear and effective explanation of something.

It's like "Yeahhhhhhhhh that makes sense.... I think..." :sunglasses:

Quote'

Is a confrontation between religion (I exclude "dogmatism" here) and science necessary? Having a background in both science and religion, I do not think so. We do not have to battle over things that are dissimilar in terms of reference and remit. Let me say why.

Science is about "how": it tries to find natural "facts" through ideas, theory, postulation, experiment and empirical evidence. It is not meant to find "truth". Science is based on statistical probabilities and experimental evidence; during this process of discovery, it is prone to errors.

A scientific approach cannot find for sure whether our universe was created or self-made, for example. As our knowledge expands, many "established" scientific theories have been thrown away. Scientific giants understood this and accepted the "new" knowledge with humility.

On the other hand, religion is about "why": it gives meaning to our life through a metaphysical approach, searching for ultimate "truth". Religion's emphasis is on morality and behaviour. Believers are asked to keep an open mind, observe, question, reflect, contemplate and then act. A verse from the Quran (chapter 3, verse 190) is intuitive - "Surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the alternation of night and day, there are signs for people of understanding".

Science explores and scientists differ. On the issue of human evolution even Darwin's supporters could not agree, because some thought that "the mental capacities and the moral sensibilities of humans could not be explained by natural selection". This is understandable. Our individual life on Earth is infinitesimal compared to the age of our known universe; our personal sphere is also minuscule compared to the expanse of the universe we are in. To pretend that we would be able to know the "truth" of our life and about the universe would be sheer arrogance.

This does not mean we surrender to our "fate" and sit back; not at all. We, as human beings, are not a mere physical entity but have "moral sensitivities" and a spiritual dimension. We are born with an inquisitive, creative mind that is full of imagination and innovation. We see, hear and observe things and ask questions. Do we get all the answers? No. We are not supposed to; if we did all our uniqueness would disappear and we would end up being dull and stagnant. That is the mystery of human life.

As an experimental physicist until my mid-30s, asking questions and throwing challenges were part of my research. This did not deter me from getting closer to my (Muslim) faith. I have always been fascinated by the life of many ancient scholars from China, Greece or India, who were religious saints and scientists at the same time.

I am enthralled by many pre-Renaissance Muslim scientists and scholars like Al-Khwarizmi and Ibn Sina, who were pioneers in science and at the same time devoutly religious and spiritual. I am still amazed to see this tradition of harmony between science and religion in the personality of scientific giants like Newton and Einstein. Their thirst for knowledge was matched by their humility.

Belief in or denial of God is the main issue

Monotheistic religion is essentially about primary belief in one Living God; the rest follows from this premise. In Islamic belief God has 99 "attributes" eg His Omniscience or Omnipotence. The Abrahamic religions are adamant on monotheism. Yes, there is no way of experimentally proving God's presence, but there are coherent evidences in support of this belief, such as a) all the Prophets who were known to be extremely honest and trustworthy in their life informing us of God, b) numerous signs (ayat, in Arabic) within and around us and in the cosmos testify His presence. These arguments cannot just be brushed aside as irrational or non-progressive.

The benefit of a resolute belief in God has a positive impact on life: it has created a myriad of highly-motivated, spiritually-uplifted and self-regulated selfless individuals who have spent or even sacrificed their life for the good of others. The belief in God and a sense of accountability in the Hereafter is a catalyst to those actions.

Then there is the classical argument: imagine there is no God. Believers do not lose anything on Earth. But imagine there is one, what happens to deniers in the Hereafter?

It is true that religion was and can be misused to foster division, hatred and cruelty; but history is the evidence that most wars, destruction, ethnic cleansing and killings were the result of manipulative politics or selfish use of religions, rather than the inherent faiths in and of themselves.

The complexity of body, mind, soul and spirit

There is obviously a common ground between the two approaches, the spiritual and the scientific. All living beings have phases or evolution in their life from birth to death. Without a doubt there is biological evolution in the world of low-level living beings, including many animals.

Our "evolution" in a mother's womb, from a zygote into a fully-fledged baby, is mentioned in the Quran - "And certainly We created man of an extract of clay, then We made him a small seed in a firm resting-place, then We made the seed a clot, then We made the clot a lump, then We made the lump bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, then We caused it to grow into another creation, so blessed be Allah, the best of the creators" (chapter 23, verses 12-14).

So, religion is not irrational. It asks us to think very seriously about our place on this planet. Just because we are physically similar with some primates, I believe we cannot conclude that humans have evolved from them. Yes, gorillas and chimpanzees are biologically closest to humans and their DNA sequences are very similar, but that does not necessarily "prove" that a highly intelligent and spiritual man evolved from them. Even with very close DNA-similarity between two twin siblings we see incredible differences between their personality, ability and creativity. 

The human mind may operate faster than light, but it cannot fully understand the mysteries of our universe and our life. It is time we step back and try to comprehend the highly coherent and intelligent universe and the "whole" of our existence. It is also time religious adherents practice their critical autonomy to continuously enhance their knowledge and understanding of our natural world. As for Muslims, I can only say that our belief and reason (aql, in Arabic) are intertwined; we should be the first to use this gift of reasoning.

 

Credit: 

Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari 

@MAbdulBari

Edited by user5000
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Why is it wrong to say that? are you able to see a dead brother's meat in someone's mouth when they backbite?

It's not necessary for one to see that to believe in it. However, one will eventually get to see the reality of his deeds too.

11 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

As for the rest of your comments, I generally don't engage with people that make assumptions and personal analysis.

That's sad because I wrote them out of genuine care and sincerity. If you're caught up and stuck at the thought of me possibly making negative assumptions/anlyses of you, instead of actually thinking about what I had to say and the truth in it, then sigh, what a loss. We should forget the "I".

Edited by AStruggler
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, user5000 said:

maybe you were created by some other life form/species?

You can't say 'species' - this implies a 'group'. How can those group of living things, which can be distinguished from each other, create me? 

 

 

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans
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21 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Also wanted to add, despite how far we have made it in the world, there are still people who have not even heard of Prophet Muhammad, or whatever they have heard, it's next to nothing and it has no impact in their lives. There are still tribes in South America which don't have contact with outside world. Or there are people being born in slums and such poverty that they don't get a chance to explore any idea.

We have people and nations from throughout history that still are here and in their traditions there is no sign of any Prophets (e.g. maori, aborginal people of Australia etc), and these people were also not destroyed by any type of natural disaster.

I also ask why some nations are left to survive while others were destroyed? For example why are there millions of idol and cow worshipping hindus? Note that Hindusim predates Abrahamic religions.

Salam as I know every nation will have a Warner from themselves but it will be in specific time that every nation & tribe has traces of worshiping one God but through generation &  illusions of Shaitan (la) they started dividing one God to multiple Gods & worshiping the signs .

I saw a documentary from Ajazeera channel about spreading Islam between such tribes that it was about fasting between Maori muslims & comparing short time of fasting betwwen them & longest fasting hours of  Icelandic muslims (both Sunnis) .

Hindus are always exagerrating about history of their origin but they don't have a solid proof for their claims .

Anyway there is a story that a poor jew asked from Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) that why you claim that non muslims like jews are in comfort in this world but muslims are in hardship in this world but I'm poor & in misery but you are wealthy with good life that Imam replied if you knew about our situation in hereafter you would know that your misery is a comfort in comparison  to your misery in hereafter  & my wealth & good life is misery in comparison  to my wealth & comfort in here after.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam as I know every nation will have a Warner from themselves but it will be in specific time that every nation & tribe has traces of worshiping one God but through generation &  illusions of Shaitan (la) they started dividing one God to multiple Gods & worshiping the signs .

 

This is speculation and there is no evidence that I have come accross that can independently verify such claims... if there is, i would like to see it. Hinduism is one religion where there is evidence of monotheism, they have "heavenly books", so sure that is a possibility there that the religion distorted over time. However take bani israel, they kept getting prophets whenever they started going off path... why were hindus left to distort themselves while Abrahamic religions were developing somewhere else? Didn't the hindus deserve prophets for the past 10,000 years as well?

You can question hindu history, but there is no doubt that it predates Ibrahim and is among the oldest religions we have...

I'm also familiar with Maori history - you saw some AlJazeera documentary where some Maoris converted. Did you know when Maoris started arriving in NZ? They came from pacific islands around 800ad, roughly the same time that our Imams were alive...

Edit: keeping in mind the Maori race predates 800ad, they only arrived in NZ around then, they were still community in the Pacific Islands - please study the religions of Pacific Island and attempt to reconcile your claims/theories, I don't think it's possible.

Edited by khamosh21
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Posted (edited)
23 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I don't think lack of evidence should be a way to make conclusions. Is there any evidence to show each nation got a prophet and went through punishment etc like described in the Quran? There is no evidence to show 124,000 prophets came. There is evidence of paganism in many places, paintings on caves, temples etc...lack of evidence should not be used to prove your point.

There should be a record of monotheism in history much like there is of paganism... I'm sure some Prophets were successful in their mission, where are those monotheistic communities or temples dedicated to One God? Why is the type of monotheism preached by Islam not really seen throughout history?

I don't see that as facts. Imam Ali lifting the door could very well be fabricated or added by over zealous lovers of Imam Ali. Yes a battle took place and Imam Ali led Muslims to victory, but if he broke the door and threw it hundreds of feet away? Or did he break the door and hold it over himself so people could cross? Did the Imam Hussain's  cut head really speak? We have books which speak about distortions in history, and many bigger so called facts from history are easily distorted, so there is no reason why I MUST accept Imam Ali broke that door the way it's described. By this very same logic sunnis have "history" about Abu Bakr and Omar which they also would argue is fact.

I'll also add that these type of narrations are found in every tradition of the world, I can't simply accept that Muslims throughout history have been honest, when they clearly have not! I'm not going to be biased just because i was born into Shia family and have been hearing Naray Haidaris for most of my life.

1. Either it is amazing and miraculous writing - and some of the world is blind to this

2. Or it is really good writing, and conditioning and brain washing reinforces the idea that it is miraculous.

I don't feel like writing out a response to the above argument and discussing my doubts over the Quran.

 

 

Your comments are conflicting and contradictory. From you I read (throughout several of your comments) that we know nothing, and the universe is a great expanse where human history is nothing therefore implying that nothing is for certain, yet at the same time I read many of your comments which appear to be leaning towards a certain stance when it comes to human history and everything philosophical, rather than the stance of neutrality and actually saying you don't know, you clearly seem to go against the Islamic narrative but without providing any facts or wisdom.

Surely an Ex-Muslim would understand that disproving the Quran and pointing out the "clear contradictions" should be the first step towards enlightening Muslims who have allegedly been fooled, otherwise everything you say is just opinion and as you may call it, imagination, your imagination. If the Quran says God sent messengers then it means God sent messengers to the average Muslim and nothing you say would change that. Man is weak and the devils are bound to attract most to paganism, but even then, you will find that monotheism does exist and did exist in the past, not that you would bother to check if you weren't biased.

You classified the objectivity I sought out to seek with you as "mental gymnastics" in the previous forum. Here you are running away again from objectivity. You're either confused or dishonest because I don't see why else you, who allegedly cares so much about knowledge, runs away from the perfect chance to share their knowledge of how the Quran is contradictory. 

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19 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

I don't think lack of evidence should be a way to make conclusions. Is there any evidence to show each nation got a prophet and went through punishment etc like described in the Quran? There is no evidence to show 124,000 prophets came. There is evidence of paganism in many places, paintings on caves, temples etc...lack of evidence should not be used to prove your point.

There should be a record of monotheism in history much like there is of paganism... I'm sure some Prophets were successful in their mission, where are those monotheistic communities or temples dedicated to One God? Why is the type of monotheism preached by Islam not really seen throughout history?

I don't see that as facts. Imam Ali lifting the door could very well be fabricated or added by over zealous lovers of Imam Ali. Yes a battle took place and Imam Ali led Muslims to victory, but if he broke the door and threw it hundreds of feet away? Or did he break the door and hold it over himself so people could cross? Did the Imam Hussain's  cut head really speak? We have books which speak about distortions in history, and many bigger so called facts from history are easily distorted, so there is no reason why I MUST accept Imam Ali broke that door the way it's described. By this very same logic sunnis have "history" about Abu Bakr and Omar which they also would argue is fact.

I'll also add that these type of narrations are found in every tradition of the world, I can't simply accept that Muslims throughout history have been honest, when they clearly have not! I'm not going to be biased just because i was born into Shia family and have been hearing Naray Haidaris for most of my life.

1. Either it is amazing and miraculous writing - and some of the world is blind to this

2. Or it is really good writing, and conditioning and brain washing reinforces the idea that it is miraculous.

I don't feel like writing out a response to the above argument and discussing my doubts over the Quran.

 

 

Even if there isn't "proof" for 124,000 communities believing in monotheism, there is no denial that monotheism is really large today, which shows how acceptable it is by people who conclude it is the most rational. 

There is obviously evidence for monotheism? All the muslims today are included. Please explain.

It could not have been fabricated, based on the trustworthy people who wrote about it, and described it in exactly the same way. It was not a one time thing, Imam Ali was a lion on the battlefield, and his fighting has been called miraculous, and you can't claim that all the battles were fabricated. Seriously, people had better things to do than fabricate an entire religion, and have the exact same detail. People had better things to do, but of course there have been small fabrications to either attack someone or change for their liking certain subjects. However, these fabrications are easily debunked, because of how we know to prove ahadith authenticity, by the narrator chains. 

 

They can't be found everywhere, and even if they are, based on Islamic beliefs, most muslims have been truthful. You don't need to be biased, you can see for yourself with the miracle we have present today; Quran, and then based on the miracles in the Quran, which are there because it is the word of Allah, you can conclude that it is possible for other miracles be performed by prophets, and by Imams (another debate)

 

Im sorry but I will need you to write out your understanding and doubt about the Quran, everything comes back to this fundamental belief, especially on miracles.

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6 minutes ago, A_A said:

Your comments are conflicting and contradictory. From you I read (throughout several of your comments) that we know nothing, and the universe is a great expanse where human history is nothing therefore implying that nothing is for certain, yet at the same time I read many of your comments which appear to be leaning towards a certain stance when it comes to human history and everything philosophical, rather than the stance of neutrality and actually saying you don't know, you clearly seem to go against the Islamic narrative but without providing any facts or wisdom.

Surely an Ex-Muslim would understand that disproving the Quran and pointing out the "clear contradictions" should be the first step towards enlightening Muslims who have allegedly been fooled, otherwise everything you say is just opinion and as you may call it, imagination, your imagination. If the Quran says God sent messengers then it means God sent messengers to the average Muslim and nothing you say would change that. Man is weak and the devils are bound to attract most to paganism, but even yet, you will find that monotheism does exist and did exist, not that you would bother to check.

You classified the objectivity I sought out to seek with you as "mental gymnastics" in the previous forum. Here you are running away again from objectivity. You're either confused or dishonest because I don't see why else you, who allegedly cares so much about knowledge, runs away from the perfect chance to share their knowledge of how the Quran is contradictory. 

Yes I agree, he needs to elaborate on the Quran. Muslims today understand everything from Quran, and ahadith, and they go hand in hand.

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

You can question hindu history, but there is no doubt that it predates Ibrahim and is among the oldest religions we have...

I saw a video from Kanat Eleyoun (in Arabic) that " servant Muhammad Musa" promotes an Idea that Buddha could be prophet Yunus  (عليه السلام) after his repenting that his original teachings was monotheistic  but mixed with Indian Saga & they started worshiping him & cows as we see cow symbolism in Judaism that they worshiped golden calf after passing the sea anyway history of NZ & Maoris highly forgotten but is full of migration stories with big fishes like whales or having flying Gods. 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/234939379-hindu-fought-with-imam-hussain-in-karbala/

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235002197-ten-ashura-myths-and-distortions/

Edited by Ashvazdanghe
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23 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Also wanted to add, despite how far we have made it in the world, there are still people who have not even heard of Prophet Muhammad, or whatever they have heard, it's next to nothing and it has no impact in their lives. There are still tribes in South America which don't have contact with outside world. Or there are people being born in slums and such poverty that they don't get a chance to explore any idea.

We have people and nations from throughout history that still are here and in their traditions there is no sign of any Prophets (e.g. maori, aborginal people of Australia etc), and these people were also not destroyed by any type of natural disaster.

I also ask why some nations are left to survive while others were destroyed? For example why are there millions of idol and cow worshipping hindus? Note that Hindusim predates Abrahamic religions.

Maybe the prophets were killed, maybe the people deviated from the right path. 

One thing you need to understand is that humans have had major growth in population; a community could have gotten a messenger to warn them, accepted them or denied them, and had grown so much so, that the generation of maori, aborginal people of Australia etc forgot the teachings, or lost them.

Again, as I said, maybe hindus got a messenger and the Islamic path, from which they deviated, and grew greatly, Allah knows how many nations were destroyed though.

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14 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Why is it wrong to say that? are you able to see a dead brother's meat in someone's mouth when they backbite?

As for the rest of your comments, I generally don't engage with people that make assumptions and personal analysis.

It is wrong to say we have been veiled about the reality of our sins. Because we know about the equivalent of committing some acts, as you stated, we know exactly what the reality is.

If you don't like to engage with people that makes assumptions and personal analysis', why are you doing the exact same by stating things about historic religions with no proof, or outright false data.

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30 minutes ago, A_A said:

Your comments are conflicting and contradictory. From you I read (throughout several of your comments) that we know nothing, and the universe is a great expanse where human history is nothing therefore implying that nothing is for certain, yet at the same time I read many of your comments which appear to be leaning towards a certain stance when it comes to human history and everything philosophical, rather than the stance of neutrality and actually saying you don't know, you clearly seem to go against the Islamic narrative but without providing any facts or wisdom.

Surely an Ex-Muslim would understand that disproving the Quran and pointing out the "clear contradictions" should be the first step towards enlightening Muslims who have allegedly been fooled, otherwise everything you say is just opinion and as you may call it, imagination, your imagination. If the Quran says God sent messengers then it means God sent messengers to the average Muslim and nothing you say would change that. Man is weak and the devils are bound to attract most to paganism, but even then, you will find that monotheism does exist and did exist in the past, not that you would bother to check if you weren't biased.

You classified the objectivity I sought out to seek with you as "mental gymnastics" in the previous forum. Here you are running away again from objectivity. You're either confused or dishonest because I don't see why else you, who allegedly cares so much about knowledge, runs away from the perfect chance to share their knowledge of how the Quran is contradictory. 

Fair enough brother, I'll take your first 2 paragraphs and agree, I am confused, I'm not dishonest.

Do I take my historical views as fact, no I don't, I've never said that I definitely believe one way or the other. I'm trying to present a counter argument to the Islamic narrative, or trying to at least prove the Islamic narrative - not from the Quran/Hadith - if it can be done independently or not.

The reason I don't get into Quran is because it has already been discussed many times, in addition I'm not certain of my own doubts or conclusions... my expressing my issues with the Quran will just be a waste of time for me and others.

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3 hours ago, user5000 said:

Well, this may be a stretch, but acceptable to put forth when talking about something like the essence of humanity with little to work with; maybe you were created by some other life form/species?

Again, it's just an idea, and one that i'm highly doubtful of.... but still...

There is then the more acceptable "Theory of evolution" 

 

You would believe something like the "Theory of evolution" which is so impossible, it has an absurd amount of coincidences, and flaws. And you reject the belief that makes so sense, to have a perfect creator based on the design and planning we see, the miracles performed by the Prophets and Imams, the arguments to prove Allah; ethics and morality, human rationality, cause and effect, necessary existent, possible being, and the innate nature we have to be lead to religion.

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, KumayI said:

Even if there isn't "proof" for 124,000 communities believing in monotheism, there is no denial that monotheism is really large today, which shows how acceptable it is by people who conclude it is the most rational. 

There is obviously evidence for monotheism? All the muslims today are included. Please explain.

 

Keeping the convo within context, we are asking whether or not 124,000 prophets came and what kind of impact they had on history.

Also I'm not looking at this merely from a numbers perspective, if we did, well then are far more disbelievers and they find their conclusions to be rational as well, there is no way to reach a conclusion this way.

As for the Muslims, Christians, and Jews today, they are centered in one part of the world within a span of few thousand years. I mentioned earlier, religions can be seen like empires, they rise and fall, they inherit from others, and they are full of fabrications and problems.

58 minutes ago, KumayI said:

It could not have been fabricated, based on the trustworthy people who wrote about it, and described it in exactly the same way. It was not a one time thing, Imam Ali was a lion on the battlefield, and his fighting has been called miraculous, and you can't claim that all the battles were fabricated. Seriously, people had better things to do than fabricate an entire religion, and have the exact same detail. People had better things to do, but of course there have been small fabrications to either attack someone or change for their liking certain subjects. However, these fabrications are easily debunked, because of how we know to prove ahadith authenticity, by the narrator chains. 

I don't doubt the battles, the victories, or that Imam Ali was just as brave and amazing personality as he is described. However I doubt some of the details that took place within these battles - it is common for people to make war stories and I can totally see people fabricating or exaggerating what happened in battle.

Take some of these shia zakireen from Pakistan, just saw a clip yesterday where the person literally said Allah's meraj is meeting Imam Ali, Imam Ali mera Khuda hai, even Maulana Shenshah Naqvi state it is fine to call Imam Ali "Rab" from an "ilmy" point of view, but mutlaqaan you can't call him Rabb...

Have you read any material on the distortions of events of Karbala, Shaheed Mutahhari has written on it.

And you say people had better things to do than fabricate religion - what have sunnis been upto throughout history? they are far greater in number and mayber their historical records are better? the distortions have not been "small" at all. 

58 minutes ago, KumayI said:

They can't be found everywhere, and even if they are, based on Islamic beliefs, most muslims have been truthful. You don't need to be biased, you can see for yourself with the miracle we have present today; Quran, and then based on the miracles in the Quran, which are there because it is the word of Allah, you can conclude that it is possible for other miracles be performed by prophets, and by Imams (another debate)

Like the sunnis then?

PS. I'm sending you a PM because last time I posted this mods didn't let me.

58 minutes ago, KumayI said:

Im sorry but I will need you to write out your understanding and doubt about the Quran, everything comes back to this fundamental belief, especially on miracles.

I'm don't want to get into the 1000s of interpretations for every objection on this thread/forum. Although it's something I do explore on my own.

Edited by khamosh21
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

Fair enough brother, I'll take your first 2 paragraphs and agree, I am confused, I'm not dishonest.

Do I take my historical views as fact, no I don't, I've never said that I definitely believe one way or the other. I'm trying to present a counter argument to the Islamic narrative, or trying to at least prove the Islamic narrative - not from the Quran/Hadith - if it can be done independently or not.

The reason I don't get into Quran is because it has already been discussed many times, in addition I'm not certain of my own doubts or conclusions... my expressing my issues with the Quran will just be a waste of time for me and others.

But surely you understand that Muslims will believe whatever the Quran says unless you give them reason not to believe in the Quran. Unless this is done, you speak out of your own authority which is, no offense, of no value to any Muslims here. There'll always be a counter argument to anything, so pointing that out isn't useful unless that counter-argument can be supported with facts. 

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1 minute ago, A_A said:

But surely you understand that Muslims will believe whatever the Quran says unless you give them reason not to believe in the Quran. Unless this is done, you speak out of your own authority which is, no offense, of no value to any Muslims here. There'll always be a counter argument to anything, so pointing that out isn't useful unless that counter-argument can be supported with facts. 

understandbly... i used to have faith as well, and i would argue the same when i believed...

however im assuming claims of the Quran, i should be able to verify them independently to an extent.

e.g. We use intellect to prove Quran's claim of Tawheed

We use science to verify scientific claims...

im trying to use some history to attempt and verify historical claims...

is that not logical?

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5 minutes ago, A_A said:

But surely you understand that Muslims will believe whatever the Quran says unless you give them reason not to believe in the Quran. Unless this is done, you speak out of your own authority which is, no offense, of no value to any Muslims here. There'll always be a counter argument to anything, so pointing that out isn't useful unless that counter-argument can be supported with facts. 

and if anyone doesn't want to engage with me further due to this, totally understand, all the best

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