Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله

How do you feel about interracial relationships?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

I'm a white/native american and Identify with my Cherokee ancestry mostly. I've dated as a non religious person prior to reverting and have never been with a native american. So every relationship I've been in was interracial. The Only Natives I know are distant relatives (cousins). Because I'm white passing meaning I look more white than native white women are the easiest thing for me to get. As a revert I'm probably not going to be with someone with any common racial ancestry. How do you feel about it, Most people in my area disagree that its acceptible to the point that they have tried to force me to marry a white "christian" girl to breed out the native in my ancestry and prevent me from easily raising my children as muslim witch while I don't have a problem with marrying a white person I really resent some one try to destroy something that defines me. I feel that my children will be different from me racially if i don't find a native woman and that's okay with me but I don't like someone trying to force me into a shotgun wedding to breed out my race/faith.

Edited by musa shakr
add information
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member

:salam:

Depends on the context I guess, but when you do not find anyone suitable amongst your community then no problem. 

Note that I tend to favor intra racial marriage mostly for cultural reasons, not because I think one is superior to another.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)

Try doing Mutah with a Native woman who is Christian. During that time she might convert to Islam. That could solve both issues of the loss of the child's race & faith.

Most maraji only allow temporary marriage with Ahlul-Kitabi women, but there are a few well-known maraji who also allow permanent marriage with Ahlul-kitabi women.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Just now, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Try doing Mutah with a Native woman who is Christian. During that time she might convert to Islam. That could solve both issues of the loss of the child's race & faith.

Most maraji only allow temporary marriage with Ahlul-Kitabi women, but there are a few well-known maraji who also allow permanent marriage with Ahlul-kitabi women.

that would be perfect if possible

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
2 minutes ago, realizm said:

Note that I tend to favor intra racial marriage mostly for cultural reasons, not because I think one is superior to another.

On the other hand, interracial marriage could decrease the unwanted cultural pressures of their parents and families, and put less pressure on their kids to maintain the unwanted aspects of the cultures.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Moderators

People who claim to be Muslim are often clannish and will not consider marriage outside their ethnicity, but not always. It'll be a struggle to find a spouse, no doubt, but don't give up hope. Just be the best person you can be and keep trying. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, musa shakr said:

that would be perfect if possible

True. It might be unrealistic though, as she may likely not change her faith, but you might not mind so long as she is pious and righteous in her own way [edit: in this case you might personally find her suitable for your future children, though there always remains the issue of who will the kid take after in religion, and which religion will be 'forced' upon the child if any, and how this may cause fights between husband and wife].

Regardless, ignoring the kids aspect, if things work out or you fall in love, and whatnot... There might be fiqhi rulings where you can stay married to her indefinitely, even if you weren't allowed to enter into a permanent marriage with her initially.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
On 5/13/2020 at 4:04 PM, musa shakr said:

I'm a white/native american and Identify with my Cherokee ancestry mostly. I've dated as a non religious person prior to reverting and have never been with a native american. So every relationship I've been in was interracial. The Only Natives I know are distant relatives (cousins). Because I'm white passing meaning I look more white than native white women are the easiest thing for me to get. As a revert I'm probably not going to be with someone with any common racial ancestry. How do you feel about it, Most people in my area disagree that its acceptible to the point that they have tried to force me to marry a white "christian" girl to breed out the native in my ancestry and prevent me from easily raising my children as muslim witch while I don't have a problem with marrying a white person I really resent some one try to destroy something that defines me. I feel that my children will be different from me racially if i don't find a native woman and that's okay with me but I don't like someone trying to force me into a shotgun wedding to breed out my race/faith.

Really Cherokee defines you ? How much Cherokee are you ?

What about your white ancestors? They dont define you ?

I'm pakistani Indian 100% but in my family many people married white,  east asian , jewish , latino As long as you marry a muslim nobody has an issue.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)

I know for sure that our Imams (عليه السلام) didn't make a big deal out of this. Once a person only cares about serving God, the community and Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) these cultural differences don't become an obstacle. 

Also those who marry from other races have beautiful kids from personal experience. Just stating a random fact.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Development Team
Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2020 at 5:04 PM, musa shakr said:

I'm a white/native american and Identify with my Cherokee ancestry mostly. I've dated as a non religious person prior to reverting and have never been with a native american.

Salaam, also a white/Cherokee and I have to say we're pretty far removed from the tribe. Nothing wrong with getting in touch with our heritage but I don't think it should affect our duty as Muslims. I was in the Eastern Band for a short visit back in 2012 and found that Protestant Christianity was deeply permeated in the atmosphere. I don't think Islam would be accepted, then again, it was a short visit. It's hard to gauge such scenarios but that's the general impression I got. Who really knows? As much I would like to do the same as you, the children would still be more white than Cherokee and possibly not Muslim. There are other ways for us to be in touch with our heritage, such as learning the Cherokee language. As for me and how I feel about it, it's disappointing but it's also something I'm not obsessed with either.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm, I can understand people who have huge challenges marrying out of their community even though I think a lot of these stem from incompatible people/families from different races and even if they were from the same race, they would have similar problems.

I come from a few generations of "extreme" mixing, and it is still on going in our wider family with relative success so I do not think compatible people/families from different racial backgrounds is a bad thing, infact it can make life very interesting.

Edited by starlight
typo
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Forum Administrators

I find "race" to be less important than where one grew up. You may have more in common with people who are of a different race, but were born and raised in your country and have been exposed to its culture. Mixed marriages are very common in the Western world. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
1 minute ago, Reza said:

I find "race" to be less important than where one grew up. You may have more in common with people who are of a different race, but were born and raised in your country and have been exposed to its culture. Mixed marriages are very common in the Western world. 

I said "partially agree" because when I visited USA I found that "mixed marriages" were in some places not to much common. Generally in Anglo Saxon countries it looks less common than for example Latin countries. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Forum Administrators
1 hour ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

I said "partially agree" because when I visited USA I found that "mixed marriages" were in some places not to much common. Generally in Anglo Saxon countries it looks less common than for example Latin countries. 

The mixing is deeper than you think. 

Most people in the Western hemisphere have varied amounts of European, Native American, African, and Asian heritages because of mixing over generations, on a wide scale. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2020 at 3:04 PM, musa shakr said:

I feel that my children will be different from me racially if i don't find a native woman and that's okay with me but I don't like someone trying to force me into a shotgun wedding to breed out my race/faith.

Question: Is it losing Cherokee identity specifically or is it losing Native American identity more broadly that concerns you? If it is the latter it opens up more options. edit: I mean your future children's loss

edit: also even if she is from a different Native band/tribe, she may still be understanding of your wish to impart Cherokee identity on your children... maybe

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
22 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Really Cherokee defines you ? How much Cherokee are you ?

What about your white ancestors? They dont define you ?

I'm pakistani Indian 100% but in my family many people married white,  east asian , jewish , latino As long as you marry a muslim nobody has an issue.

I'm 1/4 cherokee. my white ancestors genocided my native ancestors and and modern white people (in my area) discriminate against me heavily. being native american is something that makes my hole family viewed as different by everyone including the rest of my family and is a major part in how I identify them. IF  white people treated me better i would probably Identify with them more.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Veteran Member
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, musa shakr said:

I'm 1/4 cherokee. my white ancestors genocided my native ancestors and and modern white people (in my area) discriminate against me heavily. being native american is something that makes my hole family viewed as different by everyone including the rest of my family and is a major part in how I identify them. IF  white people treated me better i would probably Identify with them more.

if whites had not come to north america  your cherokee ancestors would have been killed/enslaved by other native tribes .At least the whites created this great country of USA where we can live in peace with rule of law today within 200 yrs of the warfare which occured between natives and whites, to ignore this is the height of ingratitude.Your native ancestors lived for centuries without any social evolution with raiding pillaging marauding against each other, yes the whites did a lot of bad things too but atleast they reformed their society relatively quickly.

Maybe you should move to an indian reservation ? have you thought of that ?

 

Edited by Panzerwaffe
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

if whites had not come to north america  your cherokee ancestors would have been killed/enslaved by other native tribes .At least the whites created this great country of USA where we can live in peace with rule of law today within 200 yrs of the warfare which occured between natives and whites, to ignore this is the height of ingratitude.Your native ancestors lived for centuries without any social evolution with raiding pillaging marauding against each other, yes the whites did a lot of bad things too but atleast they reformed their society relatively quickly.

This is stupid. It ignores how groups are adapted to their societies. So what if the old world wasn't 'technologically advanced' 'modernized' 'socially evolved' etc?

Edit:

1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

the height of ingratitude

What should they be grateful for? So they weren't partners is what you're saying. Whites 'civilized' Natives is it?

Edit:

1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Maybe you should move to an indian reservation ? have you thought of that ?

Why would he do that? The living conditions are attrocious, because the social disparity is large, because of the continued effects of colonialism and "emancipation".

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)

I have no qualms with interracial relationships/marriages. I am a slav (American of Ukrainian ancestry.)

Matter of fact, I am specifically hoping that I can get married to a nice Persian or Arab girl with upstanding moral character who shares the same values and faith that I do, and would like to have children. However, this is going to have to wait until I settle some things in my own life such as finding a decent position in construction/skilled trades, overcoming this legal hurdle I mentioned in the other thread, and developing my practice of Islam more so that I can lead a family & be a good example to any children we might have (I'd like at least 3).

However, I am getting older. I turned 34 in April, so I doubt that this is going to happen for me.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
4 hours ago, Reza said:

The mixing is deeper than you think. 

Most people in the Western hemisphere have varied amounts of European, Native American, African, and Asian heritages because of mixing over generations, on a wide scale. 

Well I saw myself big separations in cities between black and white people. I don't say it is like that everywhere but in some places that was amazing. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
4 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

my great grandparents were born on reservations my great grandfather was killed for having long "native american" hair he refused to cut.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
2 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

if whites had not come to north america  your cherokee ancestors would have been killed/enslaved by other native tribes .At least the whites created this great country of USA where we can live in peace with rule of law today within 200 yrs of the warfare which occured between natives and whites, to ignore this is the height of ingratitude.Your native ancestors lived for centuries without any social evolution with raiding pillaging marauding against each other, yes the whites did a lot of bad things too but atleast they reformed their society relatively quickly.

Maybe you should move to an indian reservation ? have you thought of that ?

 

How is tribal conflict  in a foriegn country white peoples problem to deal with. It's not you job to get in someone else business with out there consent. we didn't ask for help in fact white people had to be taught how to properly insulate there homes by natives they would have frozen to death without us. Telling me to live on a reservation where I'll be in poverty (most on reservations are) is the equvilent of telling a black man to go home to Africa It's racist and rude. reservations are hard to join if your not registered as a tribal member as a child and you children don't qualify automaticly for citizenship if at least one parent is a member at the time of your birth. Not all natives can realisticly get on one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
6 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Question: Is it losing Cherokee identity specifically or is it losing Native American identity more broadly that concerns you? If it is the latter it opens up more options. edit: I mean your future children's loss

edit: also even if she is from a different Native band/tribe, she may still be understanding of your wish to impart Cherokee identity on your children... maybe

its both but I would be just as happy about finding some one who at least has a simular percentage as me from any tribe/band

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
14 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

This is stupid. It ignores how groups are adapted to their societies. So what if the old world wasn't 'technologically advanced' 'modernised' 'socially evolved' etc?
Edit:

What should they be grateful for? So they weren't partners is what you're saying. Whites 'civilised' Natives is it?
Edit:

Why would he do that? The living conditions are atrocious, because the social disparity is large, because of the continued effects of colonialism and "emancipation".

@AmirioTheMuzzy

Maybe @Panzerwaffe’s point is that the Native Americans, by and large, were by Islamic standards pagan peoples and should not be admired and/or cherished for their un-Islamic cultural practices and aspects. In fact, even some Native American tribes such as the Hopi recognise that the European colonisation and genocide was a punishment for their failure to follow the ancient teachings of their prophets, whose original content had long been forgotten and/or distorted, with only fragments of the original teachings persisting over millennia. Additionally, there are many narrations in Islam that imply a connection between lineage and spiritual purity. For example, the observation that the Prophet and most of the Imams were fair-skinned and ruddy, while some of the usurper caliphs were dark-skinned and of illegitimate birth (cf. also the “curse of Ham”), should not be entirely dismissed, nor should the fact that many cultures and religions, pagan and otherwise, have long made a connection between light/goodness and its opposite, darkness/evil, along with many other interrelated associations. While it is politically correct to dismiss eugenics on the basis of certain extremes such as Nazism, there are in fact spiritual bases for marrying within a certain biological lineage, and is in fact reflected in human social behaviour and group dynamics, both of which are innately programmed. Although extreme racism and determinism (à la caste-system) is not encouraged in Islam, neither is extreme egalitarianism or meritocracy (à la democracy). Knowing one’s lineage is considered quite valuable and important in Islam.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Development Team
Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Northwest said:

Maybe @Panzerwaffe’s point is that the Native Americans, by and large, were by Islamic standards pagan peoples and should not be admired and/or cherished for their un-Islamic cultural practices and aspects.

I understand that, however nobody is cherishing or admiring Pre Columbian mythology or the subsequent false prophets like Tecumseh or Handsome Lake in this thread, therefore his comments about being grateful for genocide were out of place and out of line. This is strictly a brother wishing to keep his heritage/cultural identity and asking for opinions on interracial marriage.

 

15 hours ago, Northwest said:

For example, the observation that the Prophet and most of the Imams were fair-skinned and ruddy, while some of the usurper caliphs were dark-skinned and of illegitimate birth (cf. also the “curse of Ham”), should not be entirely dismissed, nor should the fact that many cultures and religions, pagan and otherwise, have long made a connection between light/goodness and its opposite, darkness/evil, along with many other interrelated associations.

These same associations and observations with were used to instigate racism against blacks and whites. The negative effects can still be seem to this today with police violence and a large group of minorities, especially blacks in prison. This too, must not be ignored in light of recent events. 

 

Quote

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ الصَّلْتِ عَنْ رَجُلٍ مِنْ أَهْلِ بَلْخَ قَالَ كُنْتُ مَعَ الرِّضَا (عليه السلام) فِي سَفَرِهِ إِلَى خُرَاسَانَ فَدَعَا يَوْماً بِمَائِدَةٍ لَهُ فَجَمَعَ عَلَيْهَا مَوَالِيَهُ مِنَ السُّودَانِ وَ غَيْرِهِمْ فَقُلْتُ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ لَوْ عَزَلْتَ لِهَؤُلَاءِ مَائِدَةً فَقَالَ مَهْ إِنَّ الرَّبَّ تَبَارَكَ وَ تَعَالَى وَاحِدٌ وَ الْأُمَّ وَاحِدَةٌ وَ الْأَبَ وَاحِدٌ وَ الْجَزَاءَ بِالْأَعْمَالِ.

 A number of our companions, from Ahmad Bin Muhammad, from Abdullah Bin Al-Salt, from a man from the people of Balkh who said: I was with Al-Reza (asws) in his (asws) journey to Khurasan. One day he (asws) called for the spread (for a meal) to be set up for him (asws). So there gathered around him (asws) his (asws) black friends and others. So I said, ‘May I be sacrificed for you (asws), if you (asws) could isolate the spread for these people’. So he (asws) said: ‘Muuh! (Shhhh!). The Lord (azwj) Blessed and High is One, and the mother is one, and the father is one, and the Recompense is by the deeds’.

Allamah Baqir al-Majlisi: مهول - Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (6 / 165)

Shaykh Baqir al-Behbudi: ضعيف - Sahih al-Kafi

Also:

Quote

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ - 49:13

O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted.

^Not only is your comment is baseless and irrelevant to the thread,  it goes against Qur'an and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), we should never use Islam to justify racism and discrimination the way Christianity (e.g. "Curse of Ham") was used to justify racism, enslavement and killing of Blacks and Native Americans in American history but I'm getting off topic now.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
4 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I understand that; however, nobody is cherishing or admiring Pre Columbian mythology or the subsequent false prophets like Tecumseh or Handsome Lake in this thread, therefore his comments about being grateful for genocide were out of place and out of line. This is strictly a brother wishing to keep his heritage/cultural identity and asking for opinions on interracial marriage.

@Gaius I. Caesar

I was not attempting to defend @Panzerwaffe’s lack of good akhlaq, but rather qualify his/her underlying point.

4 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

These same associations and observations with were used to instigate racism against blacks and whites. The negative effects can still be seem to this today with police violence and a large group of minorities, especially blacks in prison. This too, must not be ignored in light of recent events.

Certainly, people can and do twist valid observations to serve their own malicious intentions and lusts. That does not, by itself, invalidate an argument.

4 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

 ^Not only is your comment is baseless and irrelevant to the thread,  it goes against Qur'an and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), we should never use Islam to justify racism and discrimination the way Christianity (e.g. "Curse of Ham") was used to justify racism, enslavement and killing of Blacks and Native Americans in American history but I'm getting off topic now.

There is no evidence that Islam outlawed or even discouraged offensive warfare and enslavement of kafir peoples.

Of course, Christian groups took things to an extreme with their deterministic, dualistic outlook on race and spirituality.

@Sumerian @OrthodoxTruth

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)

I’ve tried to stay away from this subject because I recall seeing few similar ones in the past on this forum and it always turned into big mess. I approach every aspect and view of my life from orthodox Islamic perspective. Islam should overcome every and any culture, just as it was intended at the very beginning. We all know that in a lot of cases sadly that’s not the case. In many instances a community won’t wed their daughters off to someone from abroad, no matter how religious. Add to it nationalistic feelings, and it just proves how many Muslims still live in a mental jahiliyyah. Unfortunately it happens in our, Shia, communities as well. People put their identity, culture, nationality or race over Islam. First and foremost, we all should be only Shia Muslims. The rest is secondary. Otherwise there are situations such as Shias in Pakistan and India supporting their respectful countries against each other, or Shia Arabs versus Shia Persians (and vice versa). Religious ignorance runs deep in many segments of society and it’s encouraged by the ignorant internal forces as well as witty external ones. Nothing better for our enemies than seeing Shias killing each other on the battlefields over artificially created identities or borders, that may not even be around in hundreds of years. 

As for the racism, it’s haram in any shape and form and should be condemned. Any form of racism. At your death, nobody’s gonna care if you were White, Black, Arab, Persian, mixed, 1/4 or 1/10 of this or that, what matters is how Islamically you lived and what Islamic legacy you’ve left behind. Although majority of the maraji’ were and are ethnic Persians or Arabs, there were and are also of other ethnic groups and this diversity, if approached within Islamic understanding, is a beautiful thing. 

@Northwest mentioned slavery. Let’s remember that Islamically slavery is colour blind. If the strict conditions are met, anyone can be enslaved. Race has nothing to do with it. It’s a long topic within Shia fiqh and fuqaha have diverse understanding of this concept. Certainly impossible to explain within few paragraphs. All depends on the marja’ that one follows. Overall, the divide is among the lines; slavery itself is not haram as it’s clearly permissible as per the Holy Quran, however, for Shias slavery comes with strict conditions and regulations and can exist only during the offensive, just jihad. Many active ulama believe that the just jihad can be announced in this time and era, queitists that only Imam Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) can lead one. Then comes a question who can be enslaved, who meets the criteria etc. I would say that the majority of the contemporary Shia ulama deem the concept of slavery somehow “suspended”, not banned or outlawed but suspended. There are exceptions of course. For example, Grand Ayatollah Mohammad-Taqi Mesbah-Yazdi is a vocal supporter of contemporary slavery during the just jihad. In 2004 Basra, Shaykh Abdul-Satar al-Bahadli announced publicly that the captured female Western soldiers can be kept as slaves. When defensive jihad was announced in Iraq against Daesh, some of the Iraqi ulama ruled it permissible to enslave captured Daesh members, but honestly these voices never made it really to the mainstream Shi’ite discourse. 

Edited by OrthodoxTruth
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member (With Brothers Forum Membership)
22 hours ago, Northwest said:

For example, the observation that the Prophet and most of the Imams were fair-skinned and ruddy, while some of the usurper caliphs were dark-skinned and of illegitimate birth (cf. also the “curse of Ham”)

Hi all of Imams were not fair skinned & rudy even after sixth Imam it's said that they had darker skin tone because them marrying with slaves from Africa like Berbers & etc but they always had legitimate birth (cf . we don't  belive to such curse)

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

As for the racism, it’s haram in any shape and form and should be condemned. Any form of racism. At your death, nobody’s gonna care if you were White, Black, Arab, Persian, mixed, 1/4 or 1/10 of this or that, what matters is how Islamically you lived and what Islamic legacy you’ve left behind. Although majority of the maraji’ were and are ethnic Persians or Arabs, there were and are also of other ethnic groups and this diversity, if approached within Islamic understanding, is a beautiful thing. 

@Northwest mentioned slavery. Let’s remember that Islamically slavery is colour blind. If the strict conditions are met, anyone can be enslaved. Race has nothing to do with it. It’s a long topic within Shia fiqh and fuqaha have diverse understanding of this concept. Certainly impossible to explain within few paragraphs. All depends on the marja’ that one follows. Overall, the divide is among the lines; slavery itself is not haram as it’s clearly permissible as per the Holy Quran, however, for Shias slavery comes with strict conditions and regulations and can exist only during the offensive, just jihad. Many active ulama believe that the just jihad can be announced in this time and era, queitists that only Imam Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) can lead one. Then comes a question who can be enslaved, who meets the criteria etc. I would say that the majority of the contemporary Shia ulama deem the concept of slavery somehow “suspended”, not banned or outlawed but suspended. There are exceptions of course. For example, Grand Ayatollah Mohammad-Taqi Mesbah-Yazdi is a vocal supporter of contemporary slavery during the just jihad. In 2004 Basra, Shaykh Abdul-Satar al-Bahadli announced publicly that the captured female Western soldiers can be kept as slaves. When defensive jihad was announced in Iraq against Daesh, some of the Iraqi ulama ruled it permissible to enslave captured Daesh members, but honestly these voices never made it really to the mainstream Shi’ite discourse. 

@OrthodoxTruth

For the record, I neither stated nor implied that Islamic slavery was based on race. (Obviously, it never was and isn’t.)

My only point was that there is some evidence of a connection between race—an aspect of lineage—and cumulative spiritual heritage.

The rest of your points are well taken.

  

1 minute ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi all of Imams were not fair skinned & rudy even after sixth Imam it's said that they had darker skin tone because them marrying with slaves from Africa like Berbers & etc but they always had legitimate birth (cf . we don't  belive to such curse)

Yes, I explicitly mentioned “many” (as in several) rather than all of the Imams.

I never implied that Shias believe in the “curse of Ham.” It was a cross-reference.

You are correct on all counts.

Edited by Northwest
Clarification
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...