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In the Name of God بسم الله

Why 2 Messianic Figures?

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Hello,

The more I study Islam, in particular the 12er tradition, the more I am incline to take shahada. There are still some minor doubts I have. One thing I am trying to understand is why in Islam there are two messianic figures. I am referring to of course Isa ibn Maryam (عليه السلام) and Imam Mahdi. Mainly I am confused as to why Isa Ibn Maryam considered the Messiah. Why does he need to return? I see there is much evidence for prolonged lives of certain prophets and holy people (Khidr if he was a nabi and/or wali). The doubt of the prolonged life is something I dont consider now, but I do wonder why Isa is the Messiah, but yet Imam Mahdi seems to be a Messiah in a way. They both have prolonged life and both are going to reappear (albeit with Isa praying behind Mahdi). I hope my question is clear, sometimes it is hard to formulate what I am contemplating.

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18 hours ago, MexicanVato said:

Mainly I am confused as to why Isa Ibn Maryam considered the Messiah. Why does he need to return?

Hi it's because that when Imam Mahdi (aj) will reappear then we need to show  Christians & Jews that what is real Christianity & Judaism that for accepting it we need a person that is source of all of it that definitly prophet Isa (عليه السلام) is best candidate for it then we need to show that prophecies in their books fulfilled then he can convince them to accep Islam without bloodshed  also currently Islamphobic groups are showing in negative light as Antichrist & tyrant bloodthirsty  Arab king that just will come by sword to kill everyone but they can't deny prophet Isa (عليه السلام) as someone that all of them agree on him as their savior that when they see that he is following Imam Mahdi (aj) then they will have no choice than  following master of their promised savior.

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4 hours ago, GD41586 said:

I can't wait.

Deep down, I feel like I always knew that Isa (عليه السلام) was NOT God because He prayed TO God (Why would God pray? Why would God pray to himself?). I'm more excited now to (Insha'Allah) see him when he returns than I ever was, because I believe that I'm now in a better position to truly gain the knowledge of all the things that had been obscured to me over the years as I was not following religion even remotely close to properly.

Congrats on your reversion! I'll donate to charity on your behalf/honor as a little celebration

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3 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

Congrats on your reversion! I'll donate to charity on your behalf/honor as a little celebration

Let me know what charity you choose. I have been unemployed since the start of COVID19, but I of course have enough to make a 2% donation of what I currently have.

Insha'Allah, I will find work again/be taken off furlough within a month or so.

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34 minutes ago, GD41586 said:

Let me know what charity you choose. I have been unemployed since the start of COVID19, but I of course have enough to make a 2% donation of what I currently have.

Insha'Allah, I will find work again/be taken off furlough within a month or so.

I'll give it to the orphans here https://imam-us.org/charity-dues/

 

Insha'Allah

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21 hours ago, Warilla said:

The majority Zaidi opinion is that Nabi Isa will not return and it originated from Christianity that found it's way into mainstream Islam. Bit like saying Ameen.

Zaydis are divided on a lot of theological concepts, that one may not know from which Zaydi sect to take his Zaydi beliefs and doctrine.. Some Zaydis believe in return of Nabi Isa (عليه السلام), others don’t. Some believe in return of Imam Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف), others don’t. Some believe that he is alive, others don’t. They all differ on who the Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) is. Djarudiyya expects the return of Muhammad al-Zakiyya, Muhammad al-Talikan, or Yahya ibn Umar., dependable on the sub-sect. Husayniyya believe in Zaydi Imam al-Husayn ibn al-Kasim al-‘Iyani being in occultation et al. It’s strange how there’s over a dozen Zaydi sects, with another dozen of sub-sects and they all can’t agree on anything. 

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22 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi it's because that when Imam Mahdi (aj) will reappear then we need to show  Christians & Jews that what is real Christianity & Judaism that for accepting it we need a person that is source of all of it that definitly prophet Isa (عليه السلام) is best candidate for it then we need to show that prophecies in their books fulfilled then he can convince them to accep Islam without bloodshed  also currently Islamphobic groups are showing in negative light as Antichrist & tyrant bloodthirsty  Arab king that just will come by sword to kill everyone but they can't deny prophet Isa (عليه السلام) as someone that all of them agree on him as their savior that when they see that he is following Imam Mahdi (aj) then they will have no choice than  following master of their promised savior.

The idea of an Islamic Antichrist as in THE Antichrist and not an Antichrist is extremely recent. I am pretty sure that it only goes to the 00s of this century. Historically Christians have actually seen Islam as the worst of Christian heresies. Now though in the United States you have all these crazies claiming that Islam is actually pagan and nothing to do with Abrahamic ethical Monotheism. Check out the complete insanity of the below;

https://www.derekpgilbert.com/bad-moon-rising/

However the people who believe this nonsense generally are extremely far from historic Christianity and believe other crazy things such as that Christianity is all about making Christ's followers rich and that God specially blesses the United States which was actually founded by pagan Freemasons. 

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51 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

Zaydis are divided on a lot of theological concepts, that one may not know from which Zaydi sect to take his Zaydi beliefs and doctrine.. Some Zaydis believe in return of Nabi Isa (عليه السلام), others don’t. Some believe in return of Imam Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف), others don’t. Some believe that he is alive, others don’t. They all differ on who the Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف) is. Djarudiyya expects the return of Muhammad al-Zakiyya, Muhammad al-Talikan, or Yahya ibn Umar., dependable on the sub-sect. Husayniyya believe in Zaydi Imam al-Husayn ibn al-Kasim al-‘Iyani being in occultation et al. It’s strange how there’s over a dozen Zaydi sects, with another dozen of sub-sects and they all can’t agree on anything. 

I believe you are mixing early Shia sects and Zaidiya.I recommend a book called Shia sects by Nawbakhti.

In general the development of Shia is complex there were many groups many disputes on imamat alot of the becoming extinct or phasing into another sect etc so alot of overlap.

Read Al Hadis fundamentals of religion or a beneficial summary by Ahmed Qurayshi. These views best represent my Aqeeda.

Can you give any refferance to your description of the zaydi madhab.

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6 minutes ago, Celtic Twilight said:

The idea of an Islamic Antichrist as in THE Antichrist and not an Antichrist is extremely recent. I am pretty sure that it only goes to the 00s of this century. Historically Christians have actually seen Islam as the worst of Christian heresies.

Hi it's an idea that created by wise people to separate Abrahamic religions from each other that they use an army of crazy men to promote their plan however their crazy army are not just crazy Christians but also wahabists are following their footsteps under control of these wise men  that they inserted Dajjal as Islamic Antichrist to Sunni belief that also affected shia sources but real personality is cursed Sufyani that is a person from descendants of Abu Sufyan from Ummayid branch that will rise as a bloodthirsty Islamic leader but in reality he will have support of these crazy people & in shia prophecies said that he will have religion these crazy christians (Evangelism & etc) but shows him as a Muslim that plan of creating ISIS /Daesh was preparig everything for his rising & one of major reasons of attacking KSA to Yemen is stopping process of reappearance of  Imam Mahdi (aj) & protection of rising of cursed Sufyani in future that even MBS declared that he is enemy of Imam Mahdi (aj) & his viewpoint it's an Iranian thing & in other hand they are distracting minds of anti wahabi Sunnis that believe to Imam Mahdi (aj)  with Dajjal & prophecies that they must start a war between India & Pakistan to force coming of prophet Isa (عليه السلام) &  Imam Mahdi (aj)

 

 

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On 5/11/2020 at 7:33 PM, MexicanVato said:

Hello,

The more I study Islam, in particular the 12er tradition, the more I am incline to take shahada. There are still some minor doubts I have. One thing I am trying to understand is why in Islam there are two messianic figures. I am referring to of course Isa ibn Maryam (عليه السلام) and Imam Mahdi. Mainly I am confused as to why Isa Ibn Maryam considered the Messiah. Why does he need to return? I see there is much evidence for prolonged lives of certain prophets and holy people (Khidr if he was a nabi and/or wali). The doubt of the prolonged life is something I dont consider now, but I do wonder why Isa is the Messiah, but yet Imam Mahdi seems to be a Messiah in a way. They both have prolonged life and both are going to reappear (albeit with Isa praying behind Mahdi). I hope my question is clear, sometimes it is hard to formulate what I am contemplating.

There aren't just 2 messiahs, there will be dozens including Ahl al Bayt (عليه السلام), Ilyas (عليه السلام), Khidhr (عليه السلام) and others. According to a narration Dajjal will be slain with a spear thrown by Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) himself. Long life, immortality, resurrection or most extra special things we reserve for a chosen few or God Himself are actually nothing significant for God, His powers and place are far beyond our comprehensions. He does what He wants, when He wants, in any way and through whatever or whomever He wants.

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You have to understand the topic of jealousy.  Jealousy towards Ahlulbayt is funneled to the Shiites, and people see them as "leaders of the Shiites".  No one expressed direct jealousy and hate towards Mohammad (s) and his family (a).   Non-Muslims will condemn Arabs and Muslims,  Sunnis will condemn Shiites, and so and so forth.

Idris was also raised into a high place set to return one day.  He is ancient, like even before Noah.

This tells us perhaps it maybe every Ahlulbayt has some members that return and have not died. This way the final dispute and fight - it won't be just the Mahdi as leader of Shiites, but he will be supported by past people that have a cultural route stemming from everywhere.

Adam and his Ahlulbayt, the chosen successors, Idris is probably their last and remaining one.  Khidr is probably from Abraham's Ahlulbayt, and the last one. Nuh's and the many Ahlulbayt till Ahlulbayt of Abraham, no one knows them, but some maybe alive on earth, others in the sky awaiting to return.

Elyas (a) was the proof of God between Jesus (a) and Mohammad (s), and that is one reason among others, that he was brought to a high place as well only to return and take the position of the holy spirit and guide on earth till Mohammad (s).

When they all come performing miracles, we better, be humble and not accuse them of sorcery.  This all God asks of humans in Quran.

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18 hours ago, Guest OnPoint said:

You have to understand the topic of jealousy.  Jealousy towards Ahlulbayt is funneled to the Shiites, and people see them as "leaders of the Shiites".  No one expressed direct jealousy and hate towards Mohammad (s) and his family (a).   Non-Muslims will condemn Arabs and Muslims,  Sunnis will condemn Shiites, and so and so forth.

Idris was also raised into a high place set to return one day.  He is ancient, like even before Noah.

This tells us perhaps it maybe every Ahlulbayt has some members that return and have not died. This way the final dispute and fight - it won't be just the Mahdi as leader of Shiites, but he will be supported by past people that have a cultural route stemming from everywhere.

Adam and his Ahlulbayt, the chosen successors, Idris is probably their last and remaining one.  Khidr is probably from Abraham's Ahlulbayt, and the last one. Nuh's and the many Ahlulbayt till Ahlulbayt of Abraham, no one knows them, but some maybe alive on earth, others in the sky awaiting to return.

Elyas (a) was the proof of God between Jesus (a) and Mohammad (s), and that is one reason among others, that he was brought to a high place as well only to return and take the position of the holy spirit and guide on earth till Mohammad (s).

When they all come performing miracles, we better, be humble and not accuse them of sorcery.  This all God asks of humans in Quran.

Is Nabi Idris (عليه السلام) really returning? Was Elyas(عليه السلام) already returned? I never heard of this till now. I find it intriguing.

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On 5/14/2020 at 7:26 PM, MexicanVato said:

Is Nabi Idris (عليه السلام) really returning? Was Elyas(عليه السلام) already returned? I never heard of this till now. I find it intriguing.

Quote

Identity
Elias b. Yasin b. Finhas (a)[1] was among the prophets of Israelites[2] and in the progeny of Prophet Harun (a).[3] His name has been mentioned in the Qur'an once as "Il Yasin"[4] and the second time as "Elias (a)".[5][6] In some Islamic sources, the identity of Elias (a) is confused with Khidr (a) and some hadiths considered them as one person.[7]

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Elias_(a)

Hi According to narration Prophet Isa(عليه السلام) (Jesus) & Nabi Idris (عليه السلام) are alive in sky & prophet Khidr (عليه السلام) & prophet Elyas(عليه السلام) are alive on earth that will come to help Imanm Mahdi (aj) that according to opinion of Allam Hasanzadeh Amoli Nabi Idris (عليه السلام) & Elyas (عليه السلام) are same person

https://www.yjc.ir/fa/news/5764923/چرا-از-میان-انبیاء-فقط-چهار-پیامبر-در-رکاب-امام-زمانعج-قرار-می‌گیرند

http://wiki.ahlolbait.com/حضرت_الیاس_علیه_السلام

Quote

Al-Khidr is said to be from the progeny of the Prophet Isaac (a). According to hadiths, al-Khidr is alive, just as Jesus (a) is alive. There are numerous hadiths in Shiite hadith collections concerning Khidr's character, the story of his encounter with Moses (a), and his meetings with the Prophet Muhammad (s) and the Shiite Imams (a). Al-Khidr is also mentioned in the Sufi literature and Persian poems as a guide to mystical journeys who has the position of Wilaya.

Quote

Khidr's Footsteps
There are different locations in Islamic lands which are attributed to al-Khidr (a). One of the stances (“maqamat”) of the Kufa Mosque is the Stance of al-Khidr. There is also a stance of al-Khidr in the southern side of the al-Sahla Mosque. According to a hadith, this stance was the place where Moses (a) and al-Khidr (a) met. There are many places in Iraq known as stances of al-Khidr (a), and they may amount to over 150 locations. There is a well-known location in Baghdad near the Bab al-Mu'azzam Bridge besides Tigris known as the stance of Khidr Ilyas. There are also stances in Egypt, Jordan, Palestine and Syria attributed to al-Khidr (a). The ISIS (DAISH) demolished some historical and religious regions in Syria and Iraq, including the stance of al-Khidr in Idlib and Tal Afar.

In Qom there is a mountain attributed to al-Khidr (a).

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Khidr

 the prophet Khidr is beside Imam Mahdi (aj) as his most close companion 

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On 5/12/2020 at 5:34 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi it's because that when Imam Mahdi (aj) will reappear then we need to show  Christians & Jews that what is real Christianity & Judaism that for accepting it we need a person that is source of all of it that definitly prophet Isa (عليه السلام) is best candidate for it then we need to show that prophecies in their books fulfilled then he can convince them to accep Islam without bloodshed  also currently Islamphobic groups are showing in negative light as Antichrist & tyrant bloodthirsty  Arab king that just will come by sword to kill everyone but they can't deny prophet Isa (عليه السلام) as someone that all of them agree on him as their savior that when they see that he is following Imam Mahdi (aj) then they will have no choice than  following master of their promised savior.

l asked a Shi'a what is meant by Hojjatallah. He said what the "proofs" are even the lmam does not know.

So, for example, if the lmam is told to announce that the Sun will shine in only green light for a week, then the lmam announces announces this and the start time. To give authority to the lmam's preaching and explaining.

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22 hours ago, hasanhh said:

l asked a Shi'a what is meant by Hojjatallah. He said what the "proofs" are even the lmam does not know.

Salam Imam Mahdi is Khalif of Allah so he resembles Allah on earth so he is final proof for existence of Allah so he always says the truth by his special connection to Allah but sorry I don't understand your example maybe because of month of Ramadan affection on me :ko:

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