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In the Name of God بسم الله

I am leaving Shiaism

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Guest Pschological Warfare
9 hours ago, Guest Considering Leaving Shia said:

Salam guys, Im on the same Boat as OP and Brother Hassan.

I became a Shi’a from Sunni Islam as I believed in the passage of succession to Imam al-Ali. I saw mutawahir hadeeths of Ghadir Khums and K started believing I was misled my whole life.

However recently I’ve been questioning a few things about Shi’a Islam that have been bought to my attention and I’m going to revert back to Sunni Islam unless people can help my answer otherwise.

1) Cultural Shia Islam from the popular Shi’a countries

In Iran. There are popular Shia televangelists who state, "God created 14 gods entirely equal to Himself.(I heard someone say Khomeini also had this view but I’m unsure). Imam Hussain is as if Allah grew a body and came to earth. Do not distinguish 'knowledge of Allah' because what Allah knows is what Imam Hussain knows" etc. In the subcontinent the shirk is different, like people prostrating to Zuljana. 

My gripe is this, this weirdness exists in the Sunni world as well. However, there are scholars from all backgrounds warning against this behavior. Shias have an organized clergy, the fatwa of one grand marja can stop this. It upsets me that Shias care more about Abu Bakr and Umar instead of condemning influencers who state "Imam Ali is God, I am an Ali worshipper."

2)A lot of Shi’i scholars believe in Tahrif of the Qur’an. For example:

Fasl al-khitab is a book by a Shia scholar, it tried to prove that the Quran is incomplete and corrupted. Agha Buzurg Tehrani (d. 1970) wrote a book defending the position

al-Mizan states:

The problem is, the Imamis enjoyed almost 350 years of divine connection. To me it is problematic that haq was found through engagement with Mutazilis and receiving governmental support (at this point, the Shias were in power and wanted a "respectable sect.")

"Thus, if it supposed that something from the Quran was removed, or the 'irab, diacritics, and/or arrangement of verses suffered alteration, then it must be accepted that the alteration was in a manner which resulted in miniscule consequenses in its attributes of miraculousness, holiness, etc.

Thus, if an alteration in the Quran were to be found, it would be in the form of the deletion of a repeated verse, ikhtilaf of a dot, 'irab, and diacritic."

"The verses of the Quran were not successfully arranged, the Sahaba interfered in it."
"The Quranic verses were revealed scatteredly, hence, the verses are aligned into the arrangement found in the modern Qurans. Undoubtedly the Companions participated in the process. Clearly, from the hadiths reporting the compilation of the Quran, it is obvious that when aligning the verses the Companions were guided by personal ijtihad, opinion, and style."

Considering how popular this tafsir is. The 4 earliest Shia tafsirs all affirm tahrif, I thought this belief died out but I guess not.

3) Infallibility of the Imams.

I was speaking to someone about this and they told me why its so hard to believe? I told them that something like this God would not leave out of the Qur’an. The ayat about the covenant does not refer to the Imams and it doesnt prove infallibility.

The head of the Qummi hawza Ibn Junayd Iskafi denied infallibility of the Imams. Ismat is a concept that evolved within Shi'ism.
http://en.mobile.wikishia.net/index.php/Ibn_al-Junayd_al-Iskafi

4) Possible farbicated hadeeths:

the Kufan Shias May fabricated upon their Imams. The early Imamis didn't believe in 12 imams, this hadith was "read in" when Imam Askari didn't have a visible child. The Imams were in Madina, their major Medinan Shias were not extreme in belief 

Yet the companions who lived in Kufa somehow narrated 70,000 hadiths from the Imam

if someone can put these doubts away I would be more then happy to be a Shi’a. 

I read Inquiries About Shia Islam by Qazwini (I believe that's the title), I looked up every source and I was disappointed. 

Someone mentioned how Then I was Guided by Tijani made him leave Shi'ism because now we have the internet and can search up the sources

I am a Layman, and average person with layman/ average knowledge. I wanted to clear this issue before I start to address your question, which I do not think I can do justice but i will try my best. 

I wanted to know from you or people with your thought process, You would agree that Fundamental of Faith is of primary importance. 

Fundamental of Faith

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235066460-i-am-leaving-shiaism/?tab=comments#comment-3282550

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235066460-i-am-leaving-shiaism/?tab=comments#comment-3282539

If you have done your due diligence in the above posted material- Hadith of the Two Weighty things, Ghadir and the Concepts of Wali and have achieved clarity in the 

Wilayat of Amir al-Muminin(Commander of the Faithful), Imam al-Muttaqeen(Leader of the Pious), Hujjah of Allah(عزّ وجلّ)(Proof of Allah(عزّ وجلّ), Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib(عليه السلام).

If you did achieve  this level of Clarity, its a start. 

You should not be concerned with any other issue(hearsay, or any fringe group practices or any mainstream group practices ) as you will Not understand them  prior to getting this level of clarity, and should ask questions on the Fundamental of Faith first. 

There are two issues that have plagued Muslims for last 1400 years

1) Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) is enough.

2) Whoever Worshiped Muhammad Al- Mustafa (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) , he is dead. 

All the other inquires are derivatives of the above two Assumptions. 

Messenger is like us , Only needs to be followed in Revelation(define that) kind of faith will lead you to question most of the Shia believe in Wilayat/Imamat , infallibility, or the Living Imam of our Time (عليه السلام)  of  practices certainly will not touch Azadari at this level. . So, its critical you address that so you have the base to understand the belief of the Shia of Imam Ali(عليه السلام).  

What you consider Imam is a Jurist to us, like Marja-e-Taqlid. They are fallible and we follow them in Fiqhi(Jurisprudence issue) Not in Faith. 

I hope you and I or anyone else  can communicate at this level. Because I realized most of the people here who question Faith and Practices of other people have a different basic understanding and as such communicating that the practice level will be at different frequencies and nothing will be accomplished except hostile environment and doubts. 

So, it is imperative that we communicate and clarify our positions on faith. If Faith is not clearly stated a Zaydi or a person who does not believe in the infallibility of the Divine Representative will ask question regarding things and we will question which will be alien to Imami Shia. 

I am repeating things here for a reason of focus. 

If someone believes that the Prophets made mistakes and errors or sin, and they were like us. You would think of me as a Ghulut/Exaggerator in terms of the Status. Which is understandable for obvious reasons. This is why complete openness is required in these discussions. 

So, If you(General)  engage, clarify your Faith so I can communicate according to your belief system and understand your position on issues. Some have openly declared their affiliation and that is great and I understand where you are coming form. You have freewill to believe in whatever you believe in and if you question i can answer accordingly. Posters who have not like the OP, its difficult to communicate and understand their real issue as I don't know who they are and what is their real Faith. As indicated this leads to hostile environment and not conducive of discussion it only creates doubts and I consider it a form of Psychological Warfare. This my experience and opinion. 

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The first question should be, what is “shianism”. Never heard of that before. There’s no such thing as being anonymous when you reject orthodox Islam as an alleged Hawza student, in “multiple countrie

I'm intrigued, please explain this further. I agree that the Imams were God centric but where will you go? You won't find God centrism in the Ismailis or the Sunnis.  The teachings of the Ahlul

There are no God centric, monotheistic and pure religions except Shi'ism. By far. People in disagreement might quote deviant practitioners or simply misunderstand which is not its fault rather entirel

Guest Pschological warfare
4 hours ago, gharib570 said:

So where is the twelfth imam?

Above Question does not makes sense in light of your Basic Belief System, and you will understand the answer.

You said

Quote

Clearly committing a great sin or having a deficiency in knowledge would take away that criteria. The criteria is obedience to the Quran and Sunnah of whom Imam Ali (عليه السلام) fit that criteria after the prophet (sa) 

Since your position is similar to the Sunni in terms in some way. 

If you do not believe in the Divine Appointment of Wali/Imam. Everything will look foreign to you, and would consider an answer a mental gymnastic and convoluted and Gulut/Ghuluw/Exaggerated view. 

If some non shia looks at the evidence and the criteria from the Book of Allah(عزّ وجلّ) and the Hadith. He/she if not a Hostile(Nasawbi) will acknowledge that based on the criteria of the Most Knowledgeable and the most Pious and Virtuous and many other facts which identify Leadership will come to the conclusion that Imam Ali(عليه السلام) is the most qualified. And he/she will still hold others in high esteem as they were good people but made a mistake. On this criteria someone may call themselves a Shia and they will question everything a Shia of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) believes and does. And will have an issues with understanding the next imam and the last imam and the status of the imam and importance given to the Imam and Wilayat in the Majlis in Muharram and why we do what we do in Azadari and why the Name of Imam Ali(عليه السلام) in the Adhan, why so much focus on Ali(عليه السلام) and life of the Imam(عليه السلام) Majlis  and whats the real importance and why people are so emotional and visiting dead etc....all kind of charges stem from this - 

If you some how come to the conclusion that Imam Ali(عليه السلام) is the successor, based on criteria. Don't judge the Shia's because we Believe in the Divine Appointment and Divine Representatives are Under Divine Command. So the Prophet is infallible, His successor is Divinely Appointed and Infallible and We have a living Imam(عليه السلام) . And we protect Azadari as Karbala protected Islam. Most of this will be convoluted and foreign to you and others . 

So, this is why I stress, don't go to the practice yet, as you do not have the basics. You will not understand me and I will not understand you. Which creates a problem and people will judge on assumptions and become hostile. 

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On 5/8/2020 at 8:33 PM, UndercoverBrother said:

I will further post my reasons for leaving and why now I feel closer to Allah and actually I feel like I am a truer follower of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

infact I do believe the ahlul bayt (عليه السلام) and the imams (عليه السلام) If alive today would not be found amongst the 12er Shias.

How can you feel that you are a becoming a true follower of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) when sunni figures (Aisha) made war against imam Ali? 

On 5/8/2020 at 8:33 PM, UndercoverBrother said:

But as a Hawza graduate who’s been studyin for the last 8 yrs full time in Hawza across different countries in the Middle East. As someone who even this Muharram gave lectures in the hussainiyah.

Damn bro, there must be a good reason you leave shi'ism

On 5/8/2020 at 8:33 PM, UndercoverBrother said:

The imams as and their words actually made me leave shiism.

Which words exactly?  

Anyways good luck brother, you are in my prayers. May Allah bless you and your whole family!

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4 pages in and yet still no details why the “student of hawza for 8 years in multiple countries” has decided to leave “shiaism”, whatever it is. There’s an upscale of Zaydis on this forum, reverts (?) who used to be Twelvers, and this should be addressed in one topic because now Zaydi-Twelver debate goes on in many different sections of this forum. Zaydism, just as Ismailism, had been refuted in many works of our great scholars so it would be good to bring the solid arguments in here and bring back the lost brothers back onto orthodox Islam before they’ll become Wahhabis, like many ex-Zaydis in Yemen.

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Guest Salam
16 hours ago, Guest Considering Leaving Shia said:

Salam guys, Im on the same Boat as OP and Brother Hassan.

I became a Shi’a from Sunni Islam as I believed in the passage of succession to Imam al-Ali. I saw mutawahir hadeeths of Ghadir Khums and K started believing I was misled my whole life.

However recently I’ve been questioning a few things about Shi’a Islam that have been bought to my attention and I’m going to revert back to Sunni Islam unless people can help my answer otherwise.

1) Cultural Shia Islam from the popular Shi’a countries

In Iran. There are popular Shia televangelists who state, "God created 14 gods entirely equal to Himself.(I heard someone say Khomeini also had this view but I’m unsure). Imam Hussain is as if Allah grew a body and came to earth. Do not distinguish 'knowledge of Allah' because what Allah knows is what Imam Hussain knows" etc. In the subcontinent the shirk is different, like people prostrating to Zuljana. 

My gripe is this, this weirdness exists in the Sunni world as well. However, there are scholars from all backgrounds warning against this behavior. Shias have an organized clergy, the fatwa of one grand marja can stop this. It upsets me that Shias care more about Abu Bakr and Umar instead of condemning influencers who state "Imam Ali is God, I am an Ali worshipper."
2)A lot of Shi’i scholars believe in Tahrif of the Qur’an. For example:

Fasl al-khitab is a book by a Shia scholar, it tried to prove that the Quran is incomplete and corrupted. Agha Buzurg Tehrani (d. 1970) wrote a book defending the position

al-Mizan states:

The problem is, the Imamis enjoyed almost 350 years of divine connection. To me it is problematic that haq was found through engagement with Mutazilis and receiving governmental support (at this point, the Shias were in power and wanted a "respectable sect.")

"Thus, if it supposed that something from the Quran was removed, or the 'irab, diacritics, and/or arrangement of verses suffered alteration, then it must be accepted that the alteration was in a manner which resulted in miniscule consequenses in its attributes of miraculousness, holiness, etc.
Thus, if an alteration in the Quran were to be found, it would be in the form of the deletion of a repeated verse, ikhtilaf of a dot, 'irab, and diacritic."

"The verses of the Quran were not successfully arranged, the Sahaba interfered in it."
"The Quranic verses were revealed scatteredly, hence, the verses are aligned into the arrangement found in the modern Qurans. Undoubtedly the Companions participated in the process. Clearly, from the hadiths reporting the compilation of the Quran, it is obvious that when aligning the verses the Companions were guided by personal ijtihad, opinion, and style."

Considering how popular this tafsir is. The 4 earliest Shia tafsirs all affirm tahrif, I thought this belief died out but I guess not.

3) Infallibility of the Imams.

I was speaking to someone about this and they told me why its so hard to believe? I told them that something like this God would not leave out of the Qur’an. The ayat about the covenant does not refer to the Imams and it doesnt prove infallibility.

The head of the Qummi hawza Ibn Junayd Iskafi denied infallibility of the Imams. Ismat is a concept that evolved within Shi'ism.
http://en.mobile.wikishia.net/index.php/Ibn_al-Junayd_al-Iskafi

4) Possible farbicated hadeeths:

the Kufan Shias May fabricated upon their Imams. The early Imamis didn't believe in 12 imams, this hadith was "read in" when Imam Askari didn't have a visible child. The Imams were in Madina, their major Medinan Shias were not extreme in belief 

Yet the companions who lived in Kufa somehow narrated 70,000 hadiths from the Imam

if someone can put these doubts away I would be more then happy to be a Shi’a. 

I read Inquiries About Shia Islam by Qazwini (I believe that's the title), I looked up every source and I was disappointed. 

Someone mentioned how Then I was Guided by Tijani made him leave Shi'ism because now we have the internet and can search up the sources

Brother this forum doesn't have any constantly active scholars. I think you should get in touch with one to be able to get authentic explanations. the part of imams being equal to god is something i have never heard of despite growing up in the subcontinent :haha: . If you want to contact a proper scholar I guess people on this forum can help you.

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Guest Pschological Warfare

Just as an FYI: 

First objection of Zaidiyyah sect

Some Zaidiyyah say: Traditions that specify the number of Imams to be twelve have been fabricated by the Imamiyah sect sometime ago.

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#first-objection-zaidiyyah-sect

Sixth objection of Zaidiyyah sect

Zaidiyyah say: When Imam Hasan bin Ali (Askari) passed away there was a dispute in the Imamiyah sect. Thus some people said that his son was seven years old while some said that he was a little child or an infant. Whatever may be the case, it is absurd to say that in those conditions he can lead and guide the community and should be the representative of God on the earth and that he is the leader and appointed one of Allah. And that when the Muslims face a war he should be a refuge for them.

He should command their forces and one who battles on their behalf and protect their frontiers and defend their sanctities. Now this child is helpless in these matters because a suckling infant is not able to do all these things. And whether it is in the past or the present it is something abnormal that the enemy should be confronted with children, who can neither ride a steed properly nor stay on the ground nor they are conversant to grip the reins properly or lift the swords or throw a spear. Neither are they capable to attack the enemies in the raging battle. Whereas it is among the qualities of an Imam that he should be most courageous and valiant among the people.

Reply

Whoever has stated the above shall be told: You have forgotten the Book of Allah and if it had not been so you would not have blamed the Imamiyah sect that its followers do not learn the Quran by heart; whereas you have yourself forgotten the story of Prophet Isa ((عليه السلام).) who was yet in the cradle when he said:

قَالَ إِنِّي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ آتَانِيَ الْكِتَابَ وَجَعَلَنِي نَبِيًّا وَجَعَلَنِي مُبَارَكًا أَيْنَ مَا كُنْتُ

Surely I am a servant of Allah; He has given me the Book and made me a prophet; And He has made me blessed wherever I may be.74

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#sixth-objection-zaidiyyah-sect

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Guest Pschological Warfare said:

Just as an FYI: 

First objection of Zaidiyyah sect

Some Zaidiyyah say: Traditions that specify the number of Imams to be twelve have been fabricated by the Imamiyah sect sometime ago.

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#first-objection-zaidiyyah-sect

Thanks fro your reply. There are many similar threads at SC where these claims of Zadiya and Ismailis have been refuted. 

Would you please like to make a profile instead of a Guest Account alone?

wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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On 5/10/2020 at 8:00 AM, gharib570 said:

So where is the twelfth imam?

My reply will be

1.  Where is Hazrat Isa (عليه السلام)?  Why Hazrat Isa (عليه السلام) is preserved? Is that to correct and guide future Christian followers? 

2. How do we know all past Prophets existed?  It has to be from narrations plus the existence of their graves.  Mostly because we believe what have been narrated to us because we are not there during their time to witness it.

3.  Based on #1 and #2, the same situation applies to 12th Imam.  The 12th Imam is continue the message of Islam and correct the Ummah.  Ultimately to establish complete justice on the earth.

It that wrong to believe in narrations?  Even Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) narrated past events to us.

By asking where is the 12th Imam clearly showed the shallowness of knowledge about the 12er belief.  

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On 5/9/2020 at 3:41 AM, Cool said:

Ok, So you're no longer a 12er shia but you still are a shia... :hahaha:

Perhaps an Akhbari shia...

Or perhaps one of the plethora of shia sects that existed over the centuries,  who knows.Lets not kid ourselves shiaism morphed into its present form after decades of evolution if not centuries.

@UndercoverBrother  I hope you do not judge all shiaism by the influence of safavids and while I'm in no way a fan of allama majlisi and his safavid overlords one must give credit to them for ensuring the survival of shiaism as a mainstream sect even If it was through brute strength and despotism.i mean it's the political strength of persia and its satellites which have given shiaism a credible place in the Islamic world otherwise it would have reduced to a splinter sect of Arabian peninsula,  and iraqi Shias too would have been dominated by a sea of sunnis.

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Posted (edited)

If one of the brothers here is going to leave Shiism and revert back to Sunnism, my advice is to find another ism. Sunnism is defective, the first "election" was defective and everything went downhill from there. Even the rather liberal Mufti "Abu Layth" has described this election as flawed but as he puts it, the best solution to the situation at that time. Best? Best amongst the worst, maybe. So even some sunnis agree that this election was not really Islamic, just a politically expedient move.

 This is also what one Sunni scholar said in the forum at Al-Mahdi Center in Birmingham. You can watch the video on youtube. In his view Sayyidina Ali was the rightful 1st khalifah but he was denied that right. So how can this Sunnism be correct? At best it's just as "defective as Shiism". Now if you have serious objections to Shiism based on cultural issues, then you should also have objections to this very serious flaws in Sunnism. Maybe find another better "ism" form of Islam because Sunnism isn't it.

However I do agree with this brother about the ridiculous cultural practices in Shiism. Prostrating to zuljenah, etc is stupid and makes a mockery of this deen. I do not like cultural Shiism at all. I actually detest it.

Edited by 145_turbo_16V
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On 5/9/2020 at 5:17 AM, OrthodoxTruth said:

Exactly, the Safavids weren’t some orthodox collective to start with. Their roots are in Sunni Sufism. Shia Islam served for them more as a political tool than a real religious conviction. Many drank alcohol. Some of them were even Sunnis. I don’t understand why Sunnis non-stop associate all Shia history with period, it became some sort of a fetish. 

 

Even it is true that some Safavids were not orthodox shias (and some even Sunnis) did there were not also some of them who were convinced Shia Muslims? 

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Personnaly even if it is quite possible that someone leave shiism I have difficulties to believe someone with so much experiences claimed leave Shia Islam like that and announce it with an anonymous post like that on a forum. I am maybe wrong but I have difficulties to see anything else than a fake. 

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Personnaly even if it is quite possible that someone leave shiism I have difficulties to believe someone with so much experiences claimed leave Shia Islam like that and announce it with an anonymous post like that on a forum. I am maybe wrong but I have difficulties to see anything else than a fake. 

You are right brother. If some one has real problems just due to some cultural values in shism then it can be preached to spread the views instead of just coming at once  after few years of silence and announcing to leave shiism. Even he has claimed a background of studying in hawza. There is some hidden background or a lie behind it. There may be undercover non-shia already at SC just for the sake of amusement and giving a possible bad name to shia such action is not impossible. It reminds me the example of jews that has been quoted in the quran who used to accept the truth of islam in the morning and just denying it in the evening as they were not true believers. wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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5 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

You are right brother. If some one has real problems just due to some cultural values in shism then it can be preached to spread the views instead of just coming at once  after few years of silence and announcing to leave shiism. Even he has claimed a background of studying in hawza. There is some hidden background or a lie behind it. There may be undercover non-shia already at SC just for the sake of amusement and giving a possible bad name to shia such action is not impossible. It reminds me the example of jews that has been quoted in the quran who used to accept the truth of islam in the morning and just denying it in the evening as they were not true believers. wasalam

Trolling during ramazan on such topic is even more absurd. 

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Guest Quran and Itrah
2 hours ago, MexicanVato said:

Although I am not a muslim I see Shia Islam is Allah centric. Even if I do not become muslim, I still take Imam Ali's views on Allah as mentioned in Nahjul Balagha over any Sunni/Salafi interpretation. I refuse to accept that Allah can be seen in Jannah, because to imply so means he has a form, which would mean he has a body..limbs etc.. .as reported by some of the Hanbali and Salafi. To me Shia Islam has the most pure views on Tawhid.

Exactly this.

Shia Islam is Allah centric.

But the way some Shia cultures practice Shia Islam isn't.

The OP has unfortunately neglected that the foundations are solid, and has been dissuaded by some groups of followers. 

 

 

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2 hours ago, MexicanVato said:

Although I am not a muslim I see Shia Islam is Allah centric. Even if I do not become muslim, I still take Imam Ali's views on Allah as mentioned in Nahjul Balagha over any Sunni/Salafi interpretation. I refuse to accept that Allah can be seen in Jannah, because to imply so means he has a form, which would mean he has a body..limbs etc.. .as reported by some of the Hanbali and Salafi. To me Shia Islam has the most pure views on Tawhid.

You obviously never have read any Shia book other than nahajbalagha tahts attributes to imam Ali. If you’ve read any of the Hadith books you would have had different opinion. Shias contrary to what they love to preach and propagate they do believe in Allah having a body. Early Shias at least who they take their religion from. They have countless narration on this you have a problem seeing allah in Janna lol they have narrations that even say Allah visited the prophet in his house in madina when Hussain was born and he placed his hands on Hussain’s head. Anyways your understanding of rawhide is flawed and funny. No Sunni Hadith says allah is a body all they say is they believe what the Quran says the Quran mentioned he has hands but no one dares to explain it that’s Kufur pure disbelief no one can discribe Allah no matter their knowledge he didn’t describe his hands so no one should but to say it’s kufur to say he has hands that’s funny from Shias Bcos they say allah doesn’t have hands but insist Ali is allays hand they even say Ali is allahs self (al nafs) so they should be the last ppl to even get in a discussion like this since they blv shirk associating partners with allah means to follow Abu Baker they don’t even have shirk in Allah in their whole doctrine which is really baffling

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Guest FatimaLondon
On 5/9/2020 at 2:33 AM, UndercoverBrother said:

Salam alaykum 

I know many of you will respond to this negatively and will no doubt create personal slanders and ad hominem type attacks and arguments. 

I will further post my reasons for leaving and why now I feel closer to Allah and actually I feel like I am a truer follower of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 
 

infact I do believe the ahlul bayt (عليه السلام) and the imams (عليه السلام) If alive today would not be found amongst the 12er Shias. 
 

as for those who know me or about my journey and activity on this forum. I thought it would be befitting to announce this in the same month when I first joined shiachat. Shiahchat will always be close to my heart for personal reasons. (Those who know, know). I really appreciate all the work and effort that has gone into their forum. 
 

But as a Hawza graduate who’s been studyin for the last 8 yrs full time in Hawza across different countries in the Middle East. As someone who even this Muharram gave lectures in the hussainiyah. (I do not want to give away my identity Incase it causes fitna and affects other people’s imam). My studies right now are continuing also and the end sum conclusion is as follows.

 

Very briefly and simply put, shiasm doesn’t agree with the Quranic narrative of Islam. As a theoretical religion in the books of Hadith yes maybe it has some value and khair but largely hadiths are ignored or denied as they don’t fit with ‘reason’ (a smart way of appropriating ahlul bayt to fit in with how you want them to be viewed). Also what you have today in shiasm is a post Safavid ritualistic set of customs and practices.
 

Shiaism is not God Centric it’s imam centric whereas I honestly believe the imams (عليه السلام) we’re God centric. The imams as and their words actually made me leave shiism.

 

more to follow.....

Salaam may Allah continue to guide. Alhamdulilah you have seen the misguidance Shias are in. I was Sunni my whole life changed when I converted to shiasm. I truly believed in everything their usual claims like ghadeer khom, the calamity of Thursday, Hadith after Hadith in praise of Ali. But now that am married into Shia family and also older and wiser I started seeing the misguidence they’re in. 

What you said about is 100% true. It’s such an important discussion but most Shias won’t even admit their obsession with the imams to the point of changing the whole seen just to satisfy their insecurity. Shias center their whole deen around the imam there is nothing left for Allah for them to talk about. They claim the imams see, hear and know everything they even have abwab (chapters after chapters) on how the imams have this and that and they’re are all the qualities of Allah he mentioned in the Quran they claim the imams have them too. So what’s left for allah? They don’t believe in Allah. Their allah is so far from his creation he can’t communicate with them to answer their prayers at least. That’s why they’re obsessed with the imam and cursing the sahaba. If you have read their ahadith and tafsiir of the Quran their ahadith can only be classified as two types don’t have third one either it’s to praise and do ghulu of the imam or curse and insult the sahaba they have no other concern when dealing with tafsiir and ahadith. Even the verses that allah revealed upon his prophet Muhammad regarding the mushrikeen and their idols worshiping they translate it to it being Abu Baker and Omar lol like the verse that says in sura nahl (the bee) v20 “and those they invoke other than Allan create nothing and they (themselves) are created” they say this refers to Abu Baker and Omar lol countless of tafsiir like this you wonder if this ppl have ever read the seerah (life) of the prophet. They don’t even care about Serra’s the only time they mention his seerah is when they want to insult the sahaba that’s it. They don’t even talk about the prophets struggles against the quresh how he established his seen with the help of Allan. All they care about to defend the imams and slander the Sahaba. May Allan guide them 

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1 hour ago, Mohammadi_follower said:

Even it is true that some Safavids were not orthodox shias (and some even Sunnis) did there were not also some of them who were convinced Shia Muslims? 

I never denied that there were Safavid rulers who were genuine Shia Muslims. I just pointed out that not all were. Some had heterorthodox views, some were or reverted back to being Sunnis and some were religious Shiites. That’s why the Sunni, in particular Wahhabi thought that the Safavid Iran was a “Shi’ite stronghold”, especially in the later period, in my opinion is misleading. Not that the Sunni states were sinless and pure. Many, if not majority, of Umayyad, Abbasid and Ottoman rulers used to drink alcohol for instance. They had male lovers and multiple female courtesans. 

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@GuestFatimaLondon

I recommend reading Essential Tawhid by Sayyid Abul Qasim Radhawi

To say that Allah has hands, face, eyes, shin, foot, sits on a throne, but not like creation does not save one from committing errors in Tawhid of Allah. To see Allah physically as Sunnis believe is to imply Allah has a form. To have a form means he has a direction, he has limitation etc... The God I worship cannot be seen, He sees without the need of eyes, He hears without the need of ears. The 12er Shia position is pretty obvious that Allah does not have a form nor can He be seen.

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6 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Or perhaps one of the plethora of shia sects that existed over the centuries,  who knows.Lets not kid ourselves shiaism morphed into its present form after decades of evolution if not centuries.

This posting raises an interesting question. Since "Shi'a" is usually identified in the modern era as 12er and also 5er for those of us who did some reading, how many shi'a sects have there been and who were they?

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4 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

This posting raises an interesting question. Since "Shi'a" is usually identified in the modern era as 12er and also 5er for those of us who did some reading, how many shi'a sects have there been and who were they?

Kaisaniyyah - extinct. If I'm not mistaken they believed Muhammad ibn Hanafiyyah was the Mahdi. 

Waqifiyyah - extinct (almost). Split after believing in the first seven imams

Ismailiyyah - established their own line of imamate after imam al sadiq (عليه السلام) with regular additional splits over the centuries

Zaidiyyah - believe in the imamate of zaid ibn ali ibn hussain (عليه السلام).

And many more:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinct_Shia_sects

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13 minutes ago, hasanhh said:

This posting raises an interesting question. Since "Shi'a" is usually identified in the modern era as 12er and also 5er for those of us who did some reading, how many shi'a sects have there been and who were they?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhhab#Shia

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Thanx you two, very much.

10 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

 

7 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhhab#Shia   ed note: the Amman Message/Declaration 2005CC

l didn't know there were this many.

So what then does Shi'a actually mean?

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3 hours ago, Guest FatimaLondon said:

Salaam may Allah continue to guide. Alhamdulilah you have seen the misguidance Shias are in. I was Sunni my whole life changed when I converted to shiasm. I truly believed in everything their usual claims like ghadeer khom, the calamity of Thursday, Hadith after Hadith in praise of Ali. But now that am married into Shia family and also older and wiser I started seeing the misguidence they’re in. 

What you said about is 100% true. It’s such an important discussion but most Shias won’t even admit their obsession with the imams to the point of changing the whole seen just to satisfy their insecurity. Shias center their whole deen around the imam there is nothing left for Allah for them to talk about. They claim the imams see, hear and know everything they even have abwab (chapters after chapters) on how the imams have this and that and they’re are all the qualities of Allah he mentioned in the Quran they claim the imams have them too. So what’s left for allah? They don’t believe in Allah. Their allah is so far from his creation he can’t communicate with them to answer their prayers at least. That’s why they’re obsessed with the imam and cursing the sahaba. If you have read their ahadith and tafsiir of the Quran their ahadith can only be classified as two types don’t have third one either it’s to praise and do ghulu of the imam or curse and insult the sahaba they have no other concern when dealing with tafsiir and ahadith. Even the verses that allah revealed upon his prophet Muhammad regarding the mushrikeen and their idols worshiping they translate it to it being Abu Baker and Omar lol like the verse that says in sura nahl (the bee) v20 “and those they invoke other than Allan create nothing and they (themselves) are created” they say this refers to Abu Baker and Omar lol countless of tafsiir like this you wonder if this ppl have ever read the seerah (life) of the prophet. They don’t even care about Serra’s the only time they mention his seerah is when they want to insult the sahaba that’s it. They don’t even talk about the prophets struggles against the quresh how he established his seen with the help of Allan. All they care about to defend the imams and slander the Sahaba. May Allan guide them 

Anyone notice how anti Shias argue against us in the same way anti Muslims do? That is, no actual argument, just telling us that "This is what you believe in how dare you how could you" while we say "We don't believe that". Repeat 1000x. There's few things more arrogant than somebody telling you what you believe in.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, hasanhh said:

didn't know there were this many.

So what then does Shi'a actually mean?

Those who accept Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as the first successor of Rasulullah (s) [those who accept divinely appointed Imams].

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Guest FatimaLondon said:

You obviously never have read any Shia book other than nahajbalagha tahts attributes to imam Ali. If you’ve read any of the Hadith books you would have had different opinion. Shias contrary to what they love to preach and propagate they do believe in Allah having a body. Early Shias at least who they take their religion from. They have countless narration on this you have a problem seeing allah in Janna lol they have narrations that even say Allah visited the prophet in his house in madina when Hussain was born and he placed his hands on Hussain’s head. Anyways your understanding of rawhide is flawed and funny. No Sunni Hadith says allah is a body all they say is they believe what the Quran says the Quran mentioned he has hands but no one dares to explain it that’s Kufur pure disbelief no one can discribe Allah no matter their knowledge he didn’t describe his hands so no one should but to say it’s kufur to say he has hands that’s funny from Shias Bcos they say allah doesn’t have hands but insist Ali is allays hand they even say Ali is allahs self (al nafs) so they should be the last ppl to even get in a discussion like this since they blv shirk associating partners with allah means to follow Abu Baker they don’t even have shirk in Allah in their whole doctrine which is really baffling

This is a pure lie.

Nothing of what you said makes sense nor is true.

 why did this post get approved?

Lie after lie without even checking their own books.

 

 

Edited by AkhiraisReal
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, hasanhh said:

This posting raises an interesting question. Since "Shi'a" is usually identified in the modern era as 12er and also 5er for those of us who did some reading, how many shi'a sects have there been and who were they?

Too many to count 

But the largest group of shia i.e those who supported imam Ali during saqifa and later in his caliphate and wars is not counted amongst any of them this official count of shia "sects" starts earliest with period after karbala.Interestingly the intensely loyal tawwabun are not considered a deviant sect but with time of amir mukhtar (رضي الله عنه) we have reports of " deviant " beliefs creeping in but mukhtar had so many enemies that its impossible I think to separate wheat from chaff wrt to him.off topic but I'll say this movement of mukhtar (رضي الله عنه) was a radical departure from beliefs of earlier " old guard" of imam Ali (عليه السلام) followers 

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Those who accept Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as the first successor of Rasulullah (s) [those who accept divinely appointed Imams].

Brother islamic salvation posted an excellent work of his [ it was worthy of inclusion in encyclopedia of islam] on Abu amra b amr b mihsan (رضي الله عنه) badri sahabi who sided with imam, when asked by muawiyah why he supports Ali replied " as he is most entitled to this matter [ leadership] due to his excellence in character,  past services to islam and close kinship with messanger" this view is echoed by many other similar speeches and verses of companions of Prophet and represents in it's most nascent form the shia belief around the first fitna.This does not mean at that time shia were a distinct sect as we see no one at that time calling companions of Ali "rafidah" as point of dispute was not about first 2 caliphs but rather conduct of the the third one.Even a saying by sahaba  imran b Hussain,  abu hurayrah , abu musa etc that they prayed in company of party of Ali [ despite their political differences with them] 

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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Posted (edited)
On 5/10/2020 at 5:08 AM, Guest Considering Leaving Shia said:

3) Infallibility of the Imams.

 

I was speaking to someone about this and they told me why its so hard to believe? I told them that something like this God would not leave out of the Qur’an. The ayat about the covenant does not refer to the Imams and it doesnt prove infallibility.

The head of the Qummi hawza Ibn Junayd Iskafi denied infallibility of the Imams. Ismat is a concept that evolved within Shi'ism.
http://en.mobile.wikishia.net/index.php/Ibn_al-Junayd_al-Iskafi

The same Quran says follow prophet , and the same prophet said in Hadith al-thaghalayn to follow the book and people of household for not going astray.

Edited by Arminmo
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