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In the Name of God بسم الله

I am leaving Shiaism

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Posted (edited)

Salam alaykum 

I know many of you will respond to this negatively and will no doubt create personal slanders and ad hominem type attacks and arguments. 

I will further post my reasons for leaving and why now I feel closer to Allah and actually I feel like I am a truer follower of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 
 

infact I do believe the ahlul bayt (عليه السلام) and the imams (عليه السلام) If alive today would not be found amongst the 12er Shias. 
 

as for those who know me or about my journey and activity on this forum. I thought it would be befitting to announce this in the same month when I first joined shiachat. Shiahchat will always be close to my heart for personal reasons. (Those who know, know). I really appreciate all the work and effort that has gone into their forum. 
 

But as a Hawza graduate who’s been studyin for the last 8 yrs full time in Hawza across different countries in the Middle East. As someone who even this Muharram gave lectures in the hussainiyah. (I do not want to give away my identity Incase it causes fitna and affects other people’s imam). My studies right now are continuing also and the end sum conclusion is as follows.

 

Very briefly and simply put, shiasm doesn’t agree with the Quranic narrative of Islam. As a theoretical religion in the books of Hadith yes maybe it has some value and khair but largely hadiths are ignored or denied as they don’t fit with ‘reason’ (a smart way of appropriating ahlul bayt to fit in with how you want them to be viewed). Also what you have today in shiasm is a post Safavid ritualistic set of customs and practices.
 

Shiaism is not God Centric it’s imam centric whereas I honestly believe the imams (عليه السلام) we’re God centric. The imams as and their words actually made me leave shiism.

 

more to follow.....

Edited by UndercoverBrother
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The first question should be, what is “shianism”. Never heard of that before. There’s no such thing as being anonymous when you reject orthodox Islam as an alleged Hawza student, in “multiple countrie

I'm intrigued, please explain this further. I agree that the Imams were God centric but where will you go? You won't find God centrism in the Ismailis or the Sunnis.  The teachings of the Ahlul

There are no God centric, monotheistic and pure religions except Shi'ism. By far. People in disagreement might quote deviant practitioners or simply misunderstand which is not its fault rather entirel

  • Advanced Member
On 5/8/2020 at 8:33 PM, UndercoverBrother said:

Very briefly and simply put, shiasm doesn’t agree with the Quranic narrative of Islam. As a theoretical religion in the books of Hadith yes maybe it has some value and khair but largely hadiths are ignored or denied as they don’t fit with ‘reason’ (a smart way of appropriating ahlul bayt to fit in with how you want them to be viewed). Also what you have today in shiasm is a post Safavid ritualistic set of customs and practices.

I am anticipating to see verses of the Quran along with historical accounts which will point to the notion that the first Imam was not chosen by God and appointed via the Prophet, rather Abu Bakr was justly chosen. Technicalities like takkiya or mot'a marriage, or wassileh should not hinder the foundation of your faith, given you believe that Imam Ali Ibn Abu Taleb (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was ordained. 

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1 hour ago, UndercoverBrother said:

Shiaism is not God Centric it’s imam centric whereas I honestly believe the imams (عليه السلام) we’re God centric. 

Good Luck, You have been given Freewill. 

*****

However, You would have to prove yourr charge to us laypeople (non Hawza educated) , as you have outlined your education.

If you like to give your understanding of the following points.

1)

إِنَّمَا وَلِيُّكُمُ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا الَّذِينَ يُقِيمُونَ الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُونَ الزَّكَاةَ وَهُمْ رَاكِعُونَ {55}

[Shakir 5:55] Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.
[Pickthal 5:55] Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe, who establish worship and pay the poordue, and bow down (in prayer).
[Yusufali 5:55] Your (real) friends are (no less than) Allah, His Messenger, and the (fellowship of) believers,- those who establish regular prayers and regular charity, and they bow down humbly (in worship).

2)

man kuntu mawlahu fa `Aliyyun mawlahu -

"For whoever I am his Leader (mawla), 'Ali is his Leader (mawla)."

https://www.al-islam.org/ghadir/incident.htm

3)

"Sometimes he (S) used the words: I have left [taraktu] behind two weighty things [thaqlayn].17

At other times he (S) said: I am leaving [tarik] behind two Caliphs [khalifatayn] (Qur’an and Ahlul Bayt).18

In addition, he (S) said: I am leaving [tarik] behind two weighty things.19

Furthermore, he (S) stated: They will not separate.20

At some places he (S) has said: They will not disunite.21

I other places he (S) stated: Do not lead them otherwise you will perish. Do not teach them for they are more learned than you.22"

https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-ayatullah-al-udhma-shaykh-husayn-vahid-khorasani/divine-leadership

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On 5/8/2020 at 10:10 PM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

The teachings of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are far, far older than the Safavids who weren't really even Shia or Muslim in practice.

Exactly, the Safavids weren’t some orthodox collective to start with. Their roots are in Sunni Sufism. Shia Islam served for them more as a political tool than a real religious conviction. Many drank alcohol. Some of them were even Sunnis. I don’t understand why Sunnis non-stop associate all Shia history with period, it became some sort of a fetish. 

Quote

As for rituals, some of the practices  and customs during Muharram are pagan-like and seem to be mainly pre Islamic and cultural in origin. However my faith in the Qur'an and Ahlulbayt isn't rattled by such grotesque practices.

Let’s not spread such nonsense. This notion of thinking can be applied to anything and anyone. Orthodox practices and customs are all free of polytheism and jahiliyyah era.  

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Fundamental of Faith

1) Divine Unity (Tawhid)

https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-ayatullah-al-udhma-shaykh-husayn-vahid-khorasani/divine-unity-tawhid

2) Divine Justice (‘Adl)

https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-ayatullah-al-udhma-shaykh-husayn-vahid-khorasani/divine-justice-adl

3)Prophethood (Nabuwwat ‘Ammah)

https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-ayatullah-al-udhma-shaykh-husayn-vahid-khorasani/common-prophethood

https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-ayatullah-al-udhma-shaykh-husayn-vahid-khorasani/special-prophethood

4) The Divine Leadership (Imamat)

https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-ayatullah-al-udhma-shaykh-husayn-vahid-khorasani/divine-leadership

5)The Return (Ma’ad)

https://www.al-islam.org/principles-faith-usul-al-din-ayatullah-al-udhma-shaykh-husayn-vahid-khorasani/return-maad

-------------

If you allow this discussion to move into anything else except Fundamental of Faith, you have helped in misguidance. So, if you hold certain views about practices and Azadari, this is not the place for it, open up another thread. Have the OP open up another thread where he/she clearly and explicitly explain how these practices can lead him/her to whatever path he/she "Thinks", is leading to. 

Let the OP explain his/her Fundamental Argument against Faith. But you all have freewill so do as you please just understand the consequences of your actions. 

Unless this is a Azadari thread, in a round about way, It will become apparent in this progress. 

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Salamualykum dear brother,

First of all, instead of attacking you, i think it's more wise to come to an understanding that is fair. I , as a Shia, have definitely gone through phases of deep soul searching, doubts, and reflection. There are certain things you have mentioned, which i myself have spoken out and have been vilified and punished for.

The first is attacking cultural Shi'ism, which itself is a fairly recent evolution we do not find existing during the time of Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), the purified Ahlulbayt (asws) the great scholars of Shia Islam, from the noble Shaykh as-Saduq, Shaykh al-Mufid, Shaykh al-Tusi, and their likes, up until around the time of Allama Majlisi, a few hundred year ago.  However, to be a Shia doesn't mean you have to accept whatever cultural form of Shia Islam exists in your particular time in history. Rather, it is to accept the fundamentals of Shia Islam. We might have a minority performing tatbir, engaging in certain rituals which have no basis in this religion, but does that detract from the purest form of Tawheed taught by Muhammed and ale Muhammed?

I don't deny how painful it is to see some of these cultural practises, but should i then follow a sect which advocates Allah has direction, is made of parts, ascends, descends, puts his foot into hell, the way the Salafis believe, and what is contained in Saheeh al-Bukhari itself? Does it in anyway detract from Muttawatir ahadith, whereby the Prophet clearly and unequivocally states he is leaving behind two weighty things, which if we hold onto, we will never go astray, and that these two will never deviate until the pool of Kawthar?

Allah sent messengers and Prophets to mankind. Every single one of those messages faced distortions and divisions. Yet, Allah will still judge people based on following the best of what they knew and had access to, their sincerity, and using their intellect among other things.

You my dear brother, are not the first to complain about how Imam centric certain elements of Shia groups have become. Many scholars themselves, even Sayed Kamal al-Hayderi , who himself cited incidents of senior scholars lamenting this, have complained about the very same. 

Yet, put aside our tiny, tiny community in this tiny little period of history which insha Allah will be a blip in our overall history. Look at Kitab al-Tawheed of al-Kafi and tell me who other than ale Muhammed promoted the most dignified, most rational, most pure form of Tawheed? Read the duas left by Muhammed and ale Muhammed and tell me who else supplicated with devotion and sincerity to Allah hitherto unknown? 

You seem to have read the works of the Prophet and Imams , and feel modern day Shias, or groups you have been brought up with and exposed to, are not doing due diligence, and many scholars themselves would agree with you. Many scholars have warned Shias about not turning the religion of Islam into personality cult followings where Allah or his Messenger are barely given mention. But if you accept the fundamentals of Shia Islam, at least the fundamentals are solid, irrespective of cultural aberrations. Why not promote the fundamentals in the hope that reasoned, rational argument will open the eyes of honest, sincere individuals who insha Allah will spread the same to others?

I was once in a discussion circle with a middle aged brother , a Shaykh and others, and the brother remarked just how beautiful the sermons of Nahj-ul-Balagah were, in their discussion of Allah. Yet, he lamented how little focus there was on sermons of that nature, on Allah, but a much greater focus on personalities. He felt it was unbalanced, and i agree with him Unfortunately, in an aim to maybe counter the usurpation of the rightful position of ale Muhammed, we might ourselves have gone to an extreme, and we need correction.

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1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

I'm intrigued, please explain this further. I agree that the Imams were God centric but where will you go? You won't find God centrism in the Ismailis or the Sunnis. 

 

The teachings of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are far, far older than the Safavids who weren't really even Shia or Muslim in practice. As for rituals, some of the practices  and customs during Muharram are pagan-like and seem to be mainly pre Islamic and cultural in origin. However my faith in the Qur'an and Ahlulbayt isn't rattled by such grotesque practices. I wonder what gave you doubt?

SubhanAllah, you are an individual who has recognised how to see the fundamentals, from that which is irrelevant. You have accepted the truth of shia Islam based on the teachings of Muhammed and ale Muhammed, and have not been tricked into thinking Shia Islam was a few tiny groups relative to Shias historically participating in rituals which themselves didn't existed until a few hundred years ago, which many senior scholars have condemned.

If i decided the truth of Shia Islam was popular Shia culture, or minority Shia practices, and not the fundamentals as taught by Muhammed and ale Muhammed, i would have left Shia Islam a long time ago.

While it pains me to see what sort of practices we perform, as Sayed Kamal Hayderi himself mention, the lack of a God-centric approach among some (not all of course), i hold firm to the fundamentals and will endure patiently for Imam al-Mahdi (ajfs) to come and correct this. 

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13 minutes ago, starlight said:

Dua Mujeer which we recite in these holy nights, the whole of Dua Mujeer is nothing but names of Allah.

Dua Joshan Kabir, a long dua which contains nothing but around s thousand names and atributes of Allah 

Dua Kumayl which we recite every Friday night: 

O He in whose hand is my forelock!O He who knows my affliction and my misery! O He who is aware of my poverty and indigence! My Lord! My Lord! My Lord!

Have you read all these duas and the munajaat of Imam Sajjad(عليه السلام)?? If you have how can you still say shiaism is Imamcentric and not Godcentric? Try coming up with a better excuse.

Sister, you have brought some of our most wonderful Duas. There is no doubt the legacy left behind to us by Muhammed and ale Muhammed is such, that despite us not giving it due respect, the ark of salvation still manages to keep us afloat, given how strong the ark is built.

However, many, including Sayed Kamal al-Hayderi, who himself cited senior scholars, have remarked that among some groups of Shias, what you find is a personality cult, where the emphasis is taken away from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). You find little mention of Allah outside of reciting these Duas, little mention of the Prophet, and the religion is turned into something else. This sentiment has been echoed by many scholars, many speakers, and even more lay people, including myself. 

I think the brother confuses the fundamentals of Shia Islam (the actual teachings and Duas of Muhammed/Ale Muhammed) with different evolutions of how it is practised culturally among differing groups today.

Growing up, i was blessed to have a local Allim who loved the Quran and Rasulullah. But many speakers who would come in over the years led me to raising the issue when i was in my teens about the lack of mention of Allah or the Prophet. That's approaching under a decade ago now. I've spoken to many people who feel the same way.

We're not raising these issues to attack Shia Islam. But we admit Sunnis are misguided on fundamental Aqeedah , can we not perform an honest introspection and admit while our fundamentals are sound, perhaps in an attempt to counter balance the usurpation of the right of ale Muhammed, we have gone to an extreme and perhaps need to balance things again?

Only when we admit this, can we tell brothers like the OP that leaving Shia Islam because of popular culture today, despite the fundamentals being sound, isn't wise nor makes any sense.

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On 5/8/2020 at 8:33 PM, UndercoverBrother said:

Salam alaykum 

I will further post my reasons for leaving and why now I feel closer to Allah and actually I feel like I am a truer follower of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

infact I do believe the ahlul bayt (عليه السلام) and the imams (عليه السلام) If alive today would not be found amongst the 12er Shias. 

Shiaism is not God Centric it’s imam centric whereas I honestly believe the imams (عليه السلام) we’re God centric. The imams as and their words actually made me leave shiism.

more to follow.....

Alaikum salam,

As long as you hold on to Quran and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), and you feel that you are closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) , you are free to lead your own life. You are likely to have your own interpretation on how to move forward.  Pls go ahead.

As for me, I experience it differently.  Closer to Imams (عليه السلام) and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) feel like embarking a ship in vast sea, and while on that ship, all I feel and see is Greatness of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...  I could feel Greatness of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) while I am on my own because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) gives to every individual a small raft for them to be in the sea.  But, that is not enough.  I see the tiny light in myself, but brightest when in congregation with the Pure Souls.  That Light is the Divine Light.  

That Light in Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams (عليه السلام) have done miracles to me...and I have witnessed it myself.

Therefore I accepted Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), and that is just for myself and my journey to Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  Each one of us have own experiences.

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Salam Alaykum,

This is another one of those useless posts which serves no benefits to the thirsty souls who want to get closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Stop promoting your personal story :)

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Posted (edited)

@UndercoverBrother Well I understand your sentiment with where you're coming from. I was like you at my teens where I thought that neither Sunni nor the Shia Islamic branches would help me understand the many practices that many Muslims I doubt were even following The Sunnah of The Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). So maybe I thought I should just be a pure Quranist Muslim and had a serious discussion about why I wanted to be a Quranist to my parents given that the vast majority of The Muslim Ummah utilize so much of The Hadiths that I wonder if the vast majority of the Muslim Ummah conflate with the idea that Hadiths = The Quran which can't be the case. Hadiths are The Words of Man and there's plenty of them being fabricated with such awful Narrators like Abu Hurayra and weak chains of narrations that don't lead to the conclusion whether such Narrations live up to The Quran, while The Quran is The Word of God and is only One Book that is self-contained at the very least.

So if there are fabricated Hadiths then why there exists such Jaahils (Ignorance) within the Muslim community who justifies their violence and murders against Non-Muslims and other Muslims who disagree with them in a peaceful and respectful manner.

But, I'm back to my senses nowadays and realized that some of the practices of Shia Islam are just showing a serious sense of respect and love for the Ahlul-Bayt. I don't agree with the practice of Tatbir Maatam (beating yourself to the point of shedding blood and on the state of near death with chains/sword cuts), while beating your chest or legs via slaps that's OK by me given the following Surah,

And he (Yaqub (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said, "Oh, my sorrow over Yusuf," and his eyes became white from grief because of the sorrow that he suppressed. (Surah 12, Yusuf verse 84) (Al-islam.org)

 

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL of Surah 12:84 below,

And he turned away from them and said, "Oh, my sorrow over Joseph," and his eyes became white from grief, for he was [of that] a suppressor.

and understanding why would Prophet Jacob (عليه السلام) SEEM to self harm himself through grief and sorrow to the point of suppressing himself when missing his own son Prophet Jacob (عليه السلام)? I get the spiritual reasoning behind Maatam though the practice of it is a bit too physical emphasized for my taste. The Quranic verse I pointed out is about mentally grieving and mourning of the loss that such great people are gone from this world. Not that Shia Islam practices the mental and psychological side of it when mourning the righteous people, but I see pure physical Maatam being emphasized greatly.

So isn't crying for the righteous people good enough? Isn't anger and contempt to the point of constructively criticizing the absolute Jahnum (Hell) out of the oppressors such as Firaun, The Pharisees against Prophet Jesus/Isa (عليه السلام), Abu Sufyan, Muawiya, and Yazeed who oppressed such righteous creations of Allah good enough?

I don't know, maybe the issue of Maatam would be clear if it was explicitly stated in The Holy Quran. I know there is Surah 51 Ayat 29, but that is debatable amongst scholars whether it relates to Maatam or not. If anything, it came across as an old barren woman smiting herself that she can possibly give birth.

But so far, I wish to further my understanding of The Ahlul-Bayt so in-depth that I can mentally grieve and mourn for them to the point of suppressing myself where my eyes become white given the Quranic verse.

Also, I want to make one thing perfectly clear-cut that there is a SERIOUS distinction between Worship and Respect. Both terms don't necessarily have to correlate with one another. That would imply Correlation = Causation which is simply put NOT TRUE. Worship does NOT have to Correlate with Respect. Respect can simply be tolerance towards a particular person/ideal/belief/thought/opinion you either love or hate regardless.

I witnessed so many Jaahil (Ignorant) Muslims pointing at other Muslims back in my youth and throwing such Accusatory terms like "Shirk", "Bidah", "Mushrik", "Kaafir" without getting to know who such Muslims are that they dare point to.

Where's the peace? Where's the justice behind any of this? Why kill such people who differ from you, but still wishing to live their life in peace? Killing such people is in violation of Surah Baqarah Ayaats 2:191-193. Fitnah is worse than Killing/Violence. So why kill different people who don't believe in you, but still wishing to live their life in peace? I understand if they were Hostile and Warmongering towards Muslims, but if they desire and yearn for Peace then give them Peace.

 

Anyway, I went on a tangent there and my perspective may not be as clear as somebody wishes, but I did the best I can given the circumstances of what I went through and why I remain as a Shia Muslim. Still learning though. Wish you well Undercover Brother.

Edited by ZethaPonderer
Omitted the "s" for Surah in italics and underlined
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4 hours ago, UndercoverBrother said:

Shiaism is not God Centric it’s imam centric

Why do Shia believe in Imamah? Why do they obey them? 

Can there be an obedience to Allah without being offering obedience to Imam? Or Can there be anything "God Centric" without accepting the Wilayah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام)? 

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On 5/8/2020 at 8:33 PM, UndercoverBrother said:

Salam alaykum 

I know many of you will respond to this negatively and will no doubt create personal slanders and ad hominem type attacks and arguments. 

I will further post my reasons for leaving and why now I feel closer to Allah and actually I feel like I am a truer follower of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

infact I do believe the ahlul bayt (عليه السلام) and the imams (عليه السلام) If alive today would not be found amongst the 12er Shias. 

as for those who know me or about my journey and activity on this forum. I thought it would be befitting to announce this in the same month when I first joined shiachat. Shiahchat will always be close to my heart for personal reasons. (Those who know, know). I really appreciate all the work and effort that has gone into their forum. 

But as a Hawza graduate who’s been studyin for the last 8 yrs full time in Hawza across different countries in the Middle East. As someone who even this Muharram gave lectures in the hussainiyah. (I do not want to give away my identity Incase it causes fitna and affects other people’s imam). My studies right now are continuing also and the end sum conclusion is as follows.

Very briefly and simply put, shiasm doesn’t agree with the Quranic narrative of Islam. As a theoretical religion in the books of Hadith yes maybe it has some value and khair but largely hadiths are ignored or denied as they don’t fit with ‘reason’ (a smart way of appropriating ahlul bayt to fit in with how you want them to be viewed). Also what you have today in shiasm is a post Safavid ritualistic set of customs and practices.

Shiaism is not God Centric it’s imam centric whereas I honestly believe the imams (عليه السلام) we’re God centric. The imams as and their words actually made me leave shiism.

more to follow.....

So what are you now and what are your beliefs which would make them different from a traditional shia?

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6 hours ago, UndercoverBrother said:

Very briefly and simply put, shiasm doesn’t agree with the Quranic narrative of Islam.

:) for instance? Shia's believe in two gods? They don't believe that Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is the seal of Prophets? They have invented "Ulil Amr" for themselves and have started following them on their own? 

Please elaborate, what you think, is the Quranic narrative of Islam? 

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I believe he is more in disagreement with "current" belief of 12er shias.  The current 12er shias  (which he terms it as shiism) have deviated according to him.  His main reason is that the current 12er shias is "Imam Centric" and not God centric.  Would like to hear his analysis.  Especially, how he defined "Imam centric" because we understand what is God centric.

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Why not hear what he actually has to say? 

These kinda posts ruin the intimacy of the environment. There is a golden rule in life - not everyone deserves attention. 

These threads "I'm leaving Islam", "Why Shiism is false?", "Ex Shia converts", "Why blah blah" are just a waste of time. 

No one in this forum is actually Islamically qualified, in fact we had one who left a while ago. These forums should only be used for discussing articles of faith, fiqh, social issues, spirituality etc. This forum represents the twelver school of thought I'm pretty sure. 

Users can't just come and drain everyone's energy with their vague posts. The OP was like "more to come" - well he just wasted everyone's precious time and now he wants them to stay tuned. If he genuinely asked certain questions, that's a whole different story - but he wants to promote his story.

I visit this forum after ages and this is the first thing I come across smh.

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:salam:

My question is this (and yes it is relevant I believe).

Is Allah all that is good? So if I am a good person am I merely manifesting Allah’s attributes on a finite scale?
So if I praise the goodness of the Imams repeatedly, am I not praising the goodness that Allah has endowed them with?

Quote

Whatever good befalls thee, it is from God, and whatever evil befalls thee, it is from thyself. (4:79)

So you did not slay them, but it was Allah Who slew them, and you did not smite when you smote (the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote, and that He might confer upon the believers a good gift from Himself; surely Allah is Hearing, Knowing. (8.17)

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2 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Wa alaikum as salam

I think a lot of people have gone into 'ambush' mode without actually hearing what the brother has to say. 

He has not identified himself as a sunni yet, so bringing arguments against sunnism is redundant at the moment.

He has not elaborated on his journey yet, nor has he outlined what his beliefs now are, so trying to debate aqeedah is also premature. 

Why not hear what he actually has to say? 

For the brother saying 'he has to identify himself' I don't see why it's relevant, look at what is being said rather than who is saying it.

I look forward to hearing more details inshaAllah, especially because usually in these instances I feel it's not so much core Shiism which is the problem rather it is the modern day practice of the Shi'i masses. However, we will find out more if we give the brother the chance to express himself rather than to bombard the thread with a series of standard shia-sunni type questions. 

:salam:

+1

Please let the brother explain himself

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7 hours ago, UndercoverBrother said:

Infact I do believe the ahlul bayt (عليه السلام) and the imams (عليه السلام) If alive today would not be found amongst the 12er Shias. 

Who would they be amongst ?

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21 hours ago, UndercoverBrother said:

why now I feel closer to Allah and actually I feel like I am a truer follower of the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 
 

infact I do believe the ahlul bayt (عليه السلام) and the imams (عليه السلام) If alive today would not be found amongst the 12er Shias. 

Ok, So you're no longer a 12er shia but you still are a shia... :hahaha:

Perhaps an Akhbari shia...

21 hours ago, UndercoverBrother said:

As a theoretical religion in the books of Hadith yes maybe it has some value and khair but largely hadiths are ignored or denied as they don’t fit with ‘reason’ (a smart way of appropriating ahlul bayt to fit in with how you want them to be viewed).

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18 minutes ago, layman said:

I believe he is more in disagreement with "current" belief of 12er shias.  The current 12er shias  (which he terms it as shiism) have deviated according to him.  His main reason is that the current 12er shias is "Imam Centric" and not God centric.  Would like to hear his analysis.  Especially, how he defined "Imam centric" because we understand what is God centric.

Precisely, and this observation is something you will find with most people who have studied the works of the earlier scholars (Saduq, Mufeed, Tusi and others). Most of us however have not left Shiism, rather we have attempted to distance ourselves from the deviations.

29 minutes ago, Guest ali_fatheroforphans said:

These kinda posts ruin the intimacy of the environment. There is a golden rule in life - not everyone deserves attention. 

Actually they sometimes highlight the impact that deviations can have. While I dont think I will agree with the brothers conclusion of 'leaving Shiism' , there are probably going to be many contemporary issues in our communities which he has correctly identified and this will help us to save others from similar outcomes. 

A knowledgeable brother who left this forum once highlighted that people were leaving Shiism due to such things and he was ridiculed for it. 

If we take the time to listen to what people have to say we might be able to rectify ourselves while maintaining our core beliefs which I have yet seen anybody refute successfully.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Guest ali_fatheroforphans said:

Salam Alaykum,

This is another one of those useless posts which serves no benefits to the thirsty souls who want to get closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Stop promoting your personal story :)

Ali, I never expected you to be so petty and quick to judge, when OP hasn't even begun to explain why he's leaving or what his definition of "God-centric " and "Imam-centric", I'm embarrassed for you. Such posts are  equally as useless and non productive.

Edited by Gaius I. Caesar
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On 5/9/2020 at 3:16 AM, Guest ali_fatheroforphans said:

I visit this forum after ages and this is the first thing I come across smh

If the subject bothers you, or if you think it's waste of time, then don't post on or read such threads.

On 5/9/2020 at 3:16 AM, Guest ali_fatheroforphans said:

The OP was like "more to come" - well he just wasted everyone's precious time and now he wants them to stay tuned.

No, he probably decided that since you tore into him that continuing the discussion was a waste of his time. Again, what you did and the way you're acting is wrong.

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19 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

The first question should be, what is “shianism”. Never heard of that before. There’s no such thing as being anonymous when you reject orthodox Islam as an alleged Hawza student, in “multiple countries”, who apparently gave lectures. State your identity so one could check your credibility before commenting on your arguments. 

As for whatever was already posted, if Shia rituals and customs are “Savawid made”, then Sunni ones likewise are created by the Umayyads, Abbasids, Seljuks, Ottomans and others. Shia Islam is as “Imam’s centred”, as Sunni one is centred around Sahaba and the Caliphs. Sunnis even believe that whatever Umar said, was revealed as a Quran. Umar; lay person, polytheist before Islam, grave sinner. I’ll rather follow the Imams (peace be upon them all) and their morality. 

Whatever makes you sleep at night my brother, thanks for the correction of spelling. 

you know what imam centric means. If you don’t unfortunately I don’t have time to explain, sorry my credentials aren’t credible enough for you. 

Also I like how you all jumped to conclusions and started attacking sahaba etc. 

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