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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imam Hassan's Number of Divorces

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Panzerwaffe said:

@gharib570

Shabath b ribi'i

What a name to bring up bro , a very interesting character 

Let me know what you dislike or find most intriguing about him ?

From the little bit I do know he sounds like a [edit] - one of those guys when the tide turns they will stab you in the back for small change. Opportunist through and through.

Edited by starlight
No inappropriate language please
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Disgraceful, illogical, shameful act when attributed to a Masoom nullifies authenticity of hadith. Masoom can't continue to divorce people that much since this is what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى

Have you even read the post I quoted?  Yeah because Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was unable to stop his son from womanizing astaghrifullah so he turned to request people to not give their daughters to

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Panzerwaffe said:

I agree it's a character assasination ploy 

But no everyone who criticized Hasan (عليه السلام) on truce was not a true follower or well wisher , these were troubled times 

Agreed the further back you go the less sectarian it becomes and more political it becomes. Communication must of been difficult too for the companions to accurately gauge the sitution.

Edited by gharib570
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Just now, gharib570 said:

Agreed the further back you go the less sectarian it becomes and more political it becomes.

Not to discount the religious convictions of the party of Ali (عليه السلام) but it was less sectarian as religious leaders in iraq syria hijaz were all those who recently had companionship with imam Ali and his close supporters so extent of ummayyad deviance was not so profound in the general population 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/12/2020 at 4:46 AM, gharib570 said:

From the little bit I do know he sounds like a bit of a[edit] one of those guys when the tide turns they will stab you in the back for small change. Opportunist through and through.

Yes many were like muhammad b qays , hayyan b abjar, who wrote letters to imam and later betrayed him 

 but shabath is quite an exception , I dug deeper in his biography and find him quite a remarkable character his insight into mission of imams was quite extraordinary yet he betrayed them? and he probably never lost his respect for many of imams companions

e.g he laments the loss of Muslim b awsaja in karbala mentioning his past services 

Did he actually attack on ashura or just stayed in the army with his forces to pacify ibn ziyad ? Not sure 

He also after demise of mukhtar, freed some relatives of ziyad b khasafa (رضي الله عنه) a close loyal companion of Ali 

But at same time his chameleon like attitude ensured his survival from time of riddah wars [ he was one of those who refused to accept abu bakr as caliph too] to after time of mukhtar  

 

Edited by starlight
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Imam 'Ali (a) would often complain to the Kufans that Mu'awiyah's followers would more obdeient than them, despite Muawiyah being the Imam of Misguidance and Imam 'Ali (a) being the imam of guidance! The Syrians knew very little of the ahl al-Bayt due to the propaganda campaign of Muawiyah and Amr ibn Al As as we know. Tragic really how Imam 'Ali (a) had so little followers. He did well at the Battle of Basra and praised the Kufans for this. However, Muawiyah slowly stuck the knife in getting people like Ziyad ibn Abihi over to his side.. This was the beginning of the end for Imam Ali :( However like he said in the Shiqshaqiyah sermon - this affair is not worth more to me than the sneeze of a goat eh

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1 minute ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Yes many were like muhammad b qays , hayyan b abjar, who wrote letters to imam and later betrayed him 

 but shabath is quite an exception , I dug deeper in his biography and find him quite a remarkable character his insight into mission of imams was quite extraordinary yet he betrayed them? and he probably never lost his respect for many of imams companions

e.g he laments the loss of Muslim b awsaja in karbala mentioning his past services 

Did he actually attack on ashura or just stayed in the army with his forces to pacify ibn ziyad ? Not sure 

He also after demise of mukhtar, freed some relatives of ziyad b khasafa (رضي الله عنه) a close loyal companion of Ali 

But at same time his chameleon like attitude ensured his survival from time of riddah wars [ he was one of those who refused to accept abu bakr as caliph too] to after time of mukhtar  

 

Interesting how these characters wavered so much the history books only give us so much. I think these guys just wanted the easy way out when push came to shove. It's like Umar used to shout when the booty arrived after battles, but in the actual battle he would run away. Most people don't practice what they preach eh - guess it's just a fact of life..

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9 minutes ago, gharib570 said:

Interesting how these characters wavered so much the history books only give us so much. I think these guys just wanted the easy way out when push came to shove. It's like Umar used to shout when the booty arrived after battles, but in the actual battle he would run away. Most people don't practice what they preach eh - guess it's just a fact of life..

Exactly like most politicians they wanted to be on the winning side all the time without spending much on the campaign and shabath was a master tactician too bad he ends up on the wrong side.

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1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

Ofcourse our ghariat will not allow anyone to point fingers at him 

Even though if I was there in his time I would probably disagree with him strongly about making peace with muawiyah 

for me the imam hassan side of it is a nonissue, bigger issue is the problem of our hadith books and how inaccessible or difficult they are to understand

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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

for me the imam hassan side of it is a nonissue, bigger issue is the problem of our hadith books and how inaccessible or difficult they are to understand

there are a lot of hadith experts here who can help you , my good fortune  I have relied on them from time to time over the yrs  to provide hadith refs 

but the language in these books is very tricky to decode and not for the faint hearted certainly beyond my payscale and intelligence 

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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Assalam u Alaikum

The problem that I find with such narrations is the incomplete story telling. The members have shared references in which there is neither a background nor what was said or expressed afterwards either by Imam Ali, Imam Hasan or any other Imam or Companions of the Prophet (please correct me if wrong). A narration expressed like that leaves us in the dark. Relying on it merely on the basis of firm rijal grounds means that our conclusions will inevitably contradict the overall lifestyle and teachings of the Prophet and His Household. Afterall, the latter followed the Prophet in terms of giving people their due rights. Such narrations are also vulnerable to change of their actual meaning, intent or interpretation over time. 

I'll share a few hypothetical examples to show how meanings can easily change over time especially in the case of incomplete historical records: 

Scenario 1: Imam Hasan may have had to end relationship with a few partners in odd cases (assumption only). Imam Ali or Hasan may have found people talking ill of Imam Hasan behind his back. In grief or as a matter of precedent, Imam Ali may have expressed, "O People do not give your daughters to Hasan if or since (according to you) he divorces in haste". Imam Ali's intent may have been to silence further talk of the town and to inform people that they were not obligated to marry their daughters to Hasan. Therefore, people had no reason to spread rumours. In response, an emotional follower from Hamdan may have responded, "by Allâh, we shall give our daughters to Hasan in marriage. those he likes, let him keep; and those he dislikes, divorce".

Scenario 2: Imagine a scenario in which Imam Ali was one day preaching Muslims. And He may have said, "O People, think before you divorce your wives because it is allowed but disliked by God. Do not give your daughters to people who divorce in haste even if it is Hasan". Possibly, Imam Ali's purpose of mentioning Imam Hasan in this example was to inspire followers by emphasising how their household is equally if not more accountable for their actions. They lead by examples. In response, an emotional follower from Hamdan clan may have responded, "by Allâh, we shall give our daughters to Hasan in marriage. those he likes, let him keep; and those he dislikes, divorce".  

^ Please note that my intent is to add value to this discussion from a different perspective. Analysing historical information within the framework of Islamic teachings and tools of authenticity can be complex and exhausting. 

Regards,
Abbas

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9 minutes ago, Abbas. said:

Assalam u Alaikum

The problem that I find with such narrations is the incomplete story telling. The members have shared references in which there is neither a background nor what was said or expressed afterwards either by Imam Ali, Imam Hasan or any other Imam or Companions of the Prophet (please correct me if wrong). A narration expressed like that leaves us in the dark. Relying on it merely on the basis of firm rijal grounds means that our conclusions will inevitably contradict the overall lifestyle and teachings of the Prophet and His Household. Afterall, the latter followed the Prophet in terms of giving people their due rights. Such narrations are also vulnerable to change of their actual meaning, intent or interpretation over time. 

I'll share a few hypothetical examples to show how meanings can easily change over time especially in the case of incomplete historical records: 

Scenario 1: Imam Hasan may have had to end relationship with a few partners in odd cases (assumption only). Imam Ali or Hasan may have found people talking ill of Imam Hasan behind his back. In grief or as a matter of precedent, Imam Ali may have expressed, "O People do not give your daughters to Hasan if or since (according to you) he divorces in haste". Imam Ali's intent may have been to silence further talk of the town and to inform people that they were not obligated to marry their daughters to Hasan. Therefore, people had no reason to spread rumours. In response, an emotional follower from Hamdan may have responded, "by Allâh, we shall give our daughters to Hasan in marriage. those he likes, let him keep; and those he dislikes, divorce".

Scenario 2: Imagine a scenario in which Imam Ali was one day preaching Muslims. And He may have said, "O People, think before you divorce your wives because it is allowed but disliked by God. Do not give your daughters to people who divorce in haste even if it is Hasan". Possibly, Imam Ali's purpose of mentioning Imam Hasan in this example was to inspire followers by emphasising how their household is equally if not more accountable for their actions. They lead by examples. In response, an emotional follower from Hamdan clan may have responded, "by Allâh, we shall give our daughters to Hasan in marriage. those he likes, let him keep; and those he dislikes, divorce".  

^ Please note that my intent is to add value to this discussion from a different perspective. Analysing historical information within the framework of Islamic teachings and tools of authenticity can be complex and exhausting. 

Regards,
Abbas

I need time to think about this, but as a thought experiment, this was incredibly compelling. 

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On 5/11/2020 at 6:45 PM, Panzerwaffe said:

I agree it's a character assasination ploy 

But no everyone who criticized Hasan (عليه السلام) on truce was not a true follower or well wisher , these were troubled times 

I agree.

Hasan b. Ali lived in arguably the most hostile environment for any Hashimite, especially Alid. I mean a time when propaganda was off the charts, where Abd ul Malik b. Marwan was changing names and Kunyas because they had been given out of honour of Ali (عليه السلام). When you coincidentally had three sons of Imam Ali, Hasan and Hussain all around the same age, all coincidentally having the Kunya 'Abu Bakr', while the Ummayads, rulers and people were spreading propaganda that the first three were legitimate and Ali b. Abi Talib was illegitimate. 

They instituted the cursing of Ali b. Abi Talib on the pulpits in Medina, across Syria, and the likes thereof. 

People seem to be surprised at how Hussain b. Ali was butchered in Kerbala, when it was the foundation set in Saqifah , and those who ruled, and gave power to individuals who were part of the Banu Ummayah. People think it's easy for a corrupt empire like the Ummayads to just rise up. These people weren't just given power, they slowly rose to it. They were made governors well before Ali b. Abi Talib was given the caliphate. 

I do agree, even well wishers faced a hard task. Companions of Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) weren't black or white. I have a list of fifty, and i have enough in my memory to expand that manifold, who we Shias respect , even if we do not reverse them all to the highest degree. It was a time of Fitnah, confusion, and many slowly began to return. 

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4 hours ago, gharib570 said:

Agreed the further back you go the less sectarian it becomes and more political it becomes. Communication must of been difficult too for the companions to accurately gauge the sitution.

This.

When you look at Sunni Ilm ul Rijal and Jarh and Ta'deel (praising/disparaging narrators), you will find many narrators being accused of being Shi'i, despite the fact that this doesn't imply they were what they call 'Rawafidh', but rather those who may have believed Ali was right and Uthman was wrong, or were of a more political leaning. Now, i'm not entirely convinced either way as i need to do further study of that. 

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4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

for me the imam hassan side of it is a nonissue, bigger issue is the problem of our hadith books and how inaccessible or difficult they are to understand

Salam if this story in post was true Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) wouldn't martyr with poisoning by his wife because according to forged story of number of his divorces by Muawiah propaganda he could get rid of his killer very easy in blink of eye but he choose to live with a wife that her father betrayed to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) countless times but visibly not joined to Muawiah (la) side that even  Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) by marrying with his daughter put his life in constant danger of poisoning & betrayal but Imam kept her as his wife until his martyrdom by her because Muawiah (la) through her father gave oath to her that by poisoning & martyring Imam then he will choose her as wife of his son as wife of his successor but when she martyred Imam then Muawiah (la) broke his oath & said nobody will trust to a traitor as wife his successor then gave her to one of his commanders to satisfy her father then fabricated a story about number of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) divorces to distract people's mind from story of martyrdom of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) 

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam if this story in post was true Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) wouldn't martyr with poisoning by his wife because according to forged story of number of his divorces by Muawiah propaganda he could get rid of his killer very easy in blink of eye but he choose to live with a wife that her father betrayed to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) countless times but visibly not joined to Muawiah (la) side that even  Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) by marrying with his daughter put his life in constant danger of poisoning & betrayal but Imam kept her as his wife until his martyrdom by her because Muawiah (la) through her father gave oath to her that by poisoning & martyring Imam then he will choose her as wife of his son as wife of his successor but when she martyred Imam then Muawiah (la) broke his oath & said nobody will trust to a traitor as wife his successor then gave her to one of his commanders to satisfy her father then fabricated a story about number of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) divorces to distract people's mind from story of martyrdom of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) 

As i mentioned, the story of Imam Hassan is a non-issue for me, I don't know why you wrote all teh above, i don't really care... the bigger issue is the evident problems in our hadith book which can barely be understood by anyone

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Hassan's divorces only become an issue when one sees him as a infallible divinely Imam rather than a human being. It is very much evident from his character that unlike his father and brother , he is a relaxed man who would rather sit than walk. He snubbed his father on the ocassion of Uthman's death and the snubbing continued all the way down to Siffain. He snubbed Hussein too when he showed reluctance to give pledge to Muaviya. Imam Hassan wanted to live a life of peace , harmony and tranquility and its no wonder that he married alot.

While considering history of Islam , one should throw away the religious lenses and see it as any other history. Its only then the history and historical figures shall make sense.

The Arab Bedoiun society after Prophet Muhammad went through a quick and robust social evolution. Wealth and luxuries were all of the sudden in abundance. Some of the Sahaba immersed themselves in power strugle as it happens every where. The only thing one can wish for after having plenty of wealth is power. The offsprings of the same Sahaba inhereted the genes of lust for power and the battles went on. It was only untill Abdul Malik ibn Marwan that the state authority became strong enough to curb the major rebellions and the Muslim empire became a "status quo" , a mix of secular and religious statehood full of ideological contradictions but practically viable.

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As far as Hadiths , i am not a rijal specialist but whenever i have opened a Shia hadith book randomly , i have found it to be a pandora box full of anything you can imagine of. These books when taken seriously can only add to confusion and perplexity about the 12ver Shia doctrines which are already chaotic and shakky.

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19 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

when one sees him as a infallible divinely Imam rather than a human being.

We view him as a human being having special divine blessings including the ismah & taharah. These two are among the very reasons why his obedience is made obligatory on us. 

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1 hour ago, Logic1234 said:

We view him as a human being having special divine blessings including the ismah & taharah. These two are among the very reasons why his obedience is made obligatory on us. 

Right , i know that. Its only for this reason you would be scratching your head once you encounter the reality that infact he was a buman being like us valnerable to all those weaknesses and shortcomings that we all are.

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2 hours ago, Leibniz said:

Its only for this reason you would be scratching your head once you encounter the reality that infact he was a buman being like us valnerable to all those weaknesses and shortcomings that we all are.

And this further proves that you scratch your head a lot whenever you hear the faza'il of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) specifically their "ismah" & "taharat". 

You have wounded your whole head. I advise you to cut your nails.

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5 hours ago, Leibniz said:

As far as Hadiths , i am not a rijal specialist but whenever i have opened a Shia hadith book randomly , i have found it to be a pandora box full of anything you can imagine of. These books when taken seriously can only add to confusion and perplexity about the 12ver Shia doctrines which are already chaotic and shakky.

Any shia hadith book, sunni sufi sushi, you name it, none of these books make any sense - the only way they can make sense is if you have "scholars" telling you they make sense, if you ask questions they can't answer they tell you that you're not smart enough to understand these issues, or they will tell you to study yourself

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Posted (edited)

Salam, 

Three questions: 

  1. Is it true that Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) was a wealthy man?
  2. Is it true that a divorced wife keeps her full dowry (assuming marriage was consummated)?
  3. Is it true that if a child was born, after the divorce, the child is entitled to full inheritance from the father?

 

It's important to notice that in the narrations regarding Imam Hassan's divorces, there's no mention that the marriages were consummated. Some may have been, some may not. We can't know (at least at this point), since it was not explicitly mentioned. This just entered my mind, because in al-Kafi, there's a chapter on divorcing a woman without consummating marriage. She is still entitled to half of the dowry. 

 

 عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ حَمَّادٍ عَنِ الْحَلَبِيِّ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ إِذَا طَلَّقَ الرَّجُلُ امْرَأَتَهُ قَبْلَ أَنْ يَدْخُلَ بِهَا فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْهَا عِدَّةٌ تَزَوَّجُ مِنْ سَاعَتِهَا إِنْ شَاءَتْ وَ تُبِينُهَا تَطْلِيقَةٌ وَاحِدَةٌ وَ إِنْ كَانَ فَرَضَ لَهَا مَهْراً فَلَهَا نِصْفُ مَا فَرَضَ 

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from ibn abu ‘Umayr from Hammad from al-Halabiy who has said the following: “Abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said, ‘If a man divorces his wife before going to bed with her, she does not need to wait for a waiting period. She can marry in the same hour after divorce if she wants. With one divorce she becomes stranger to him and if mahr (dower) is set for her, she deserves half of such mahr (dower).’”

Edited by SoRoUsH
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On 5/8/2020 at 5:30 PM, SoRoUsH said:

The following narrations are both acceptable,

Wrong.

They aren't acceptable nor are they 'authentic'.

On 5/8/2020 at 5:30 PM, SoRoUsH said:

  حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً قَالَ وَ هُوَ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ لَا تُزَوِّجُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ هَمْدَانَ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُزَوِّجَنَّهُ وَ هُوَ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ ابْنُ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فَإِنْ شَاءَ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ شَاءَ طَلَّقَ 

The two in bold are known Waqifis and the second was described by Al Muhaqiq Al Ardabeely as a ‘staunchly stubborn Waqifi’. This alone means that even if they might be deemed by some as Thuqaat, anything coming through them needs extra scrutinization as Sayed AlKhoei explains in his Mu’jam Vol 13 page 279.

Also, In Majma’ AlFa’ida Wal-Burhan Vol 10 page 262, AlMuhaqiq AlArdabeely weakens a different narration by the two for that reason.

 

On 5/8/2020 at 5:30 PM, SoRoUsH said:


  عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنِ بَزِيعٍ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ بَشِيرٍ عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ أَبِي الْعَلَاءِ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ إِنَّ الْحَسَنَ بْنَ عَلِيٍّ ع طَلَّقَ خَمْسِينَ امْرَأَةً فَقَامَ عَلِيٌّ ع بِالْكُوفَةِ فَقَالَ يَا مَعَاشِرَ أَهْوفَةِ لَا تُنْكِحُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ إِلَيْهِ رَجُلٌ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُنْكِحَنَّهُ فَإِنَّهُ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ ابْنُ فَاطِمَةَ ع فَإِنْ أَعْجَبَتْهُ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ كَرِهَ طَلَّقَ 

This narration's Sanad is weak at best due to a mix up on who يَحْيَى بْنِ أَبِي الْعَلَاءِ is. Sayed Al-Khoei in his Mu’jam Rijal Al Hadeeth Vol 21 Pages 26 and 27 explains:

):ثم إن الظاهر أن يحيى بن أبي العلاء الذي عده الشيخ من أصحاب الباقر عليه السلام, مغاير ليحيى بن أبي العلاء الذي ذكره في الفهرست, وذلك لان حميدا المتوفى سنة (310) يروي كتاب يحيى بن أبي العلاء بواسطة القاسم بن إسماعيل, ولا يمكن أن يروي حميد, عن أصحاب الباقر عليه السلام, بواسطة واحدة, فلا محالة يكون من عده الشيخ في أصحاب الباقر عليه السلام, مغايرا لمن عنونه في الفهرست. والمتلخص من ذلك: أن يحيى بن أبي العلاء رجل من أصحاب الباقر عليه السلام, وليس له كتاب, ويحيى بن أبي العلاء رجل آخر من أصحاب الصادق عليه السلام, وهو صاحب الكتاب على قول الشيخ, ويحيى بن العلاء أيضا من أصحاب الصادق عليه السلام, وهو صاحب الكتاب على قول النجاشي. ثم إن الظاهر أن ما ذكره الشيخ من أن صاحب الكتاب هو يحيى بن أبي العلاء الرازي هو الصحيح, وذلك فإن المذكور في الروايات كثيرا هو يحيى بن أبي العلاء, ولم نجد ليحيى بن العلاء ولا رواية واحدة. وقد ذكر الصدوق في المشيخة يحيى بن أبي العلاء, وذكر طريقه إليه وهو: محمد بن الحسن - رضي الله عنه -, عن الحسين بن الحسن بن أبان, عن الحسين ابن سعيد, عن فضالة بن أيوب, عن أبان بن عثمان عنه, والطريق صحيح, إلا أن طريق الشيخ إليه ضعيف بأبي المفضل, والقاسم بن إسماعيل. بقي هنا شئ: وهو أن يحيى بن أبي العلاء الرازي لم يرد فيه توثيق, ويحيى ابن العلاء وإن وثقه النجاشي في ترجمته وفي ترجمة ابنه جعفر, إلا أنك قد عرفت مغايرته ليحيى بن أبي العلاء, فيحيى بن أبي العلاء, مجهول

‘Unknown’ يحيى بن أبي العلاء

The above question marks around the Sanad present themselves before even reaching the Matn of the narrations which clearly cannot be reflective of Allah’s chosen guiding lights on earth, nor their Akhlaq or dealings. But I guess common sense doesn’t always prevail.

 

On 5/8/2020 at 6:10 PM, SoRoUsH said:

No cherry-picking should be allowed!

Since you’re so well versed on ‘authentic only’ narrations, you ought to know that the whole science of Hadeeth is based on ‘cherry picking’. Just because we accept a narration from a particular narrator doesn't mean we must accept all that he narrated. 

Please try using some common sense and perhaps more research before presenting malicious propaganda against our Imams (عليه السلام) as 'authentic'. 

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, Moalfas said:

Wrong

I'm not going to argue with you. 

Brother Cake has already, and comprehensively, demonstrated their acceptability. 

You can believe as you wish. 

 

I have no reason to further debate the acceptability of these narrations. I take them as acceptable, for many reasons, and I've moved forward to try to better understand the context surrounding them, and the reasons behind such frequent divorces. Therefore, if you wish to argue whether they're acceptable or not, please speak with someone else who is interested in doing so. Thanks!

Edited by SoRoUsH
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Guest Quran and Itrah

I have one issue with Ilm ul Rijal. I am not an Akhbari, and i always ask people to declare the position of narrators in the chain and give me a range of authoritative gradings. But even i have come to realise as others on here have said that it is a tool in the toolbox.

When doctors try to make a diagnosis, they use scans, tests, the patient history, examination, and even they often can't say for certain exactly what the reality of the condition is. They try to exercise their best judgement, of what it could be, what degree of confidence it could have. Some tests have a degree of false positives - in fact almost all of them do. 

Now, we accuse Sunnis, who arguably have more knowledge about their narrators (when they were born, if they had met, etc), which we don't necessarily have of being wrong not just about a few gradings, but wrong about many hundreds, perhaps thousands of their narrators. So all of those Saheeh books by chain would be Dhai'f by chain to us. This is despite the extensive study they have done.

Can't we admit or accept that, while our judgement on narrators is a good starting point, it is not perfect? It might be better than the Sunni school of thought, for many reasons, but could it be possible that narrators we regard as Thiqah might have not been so all the time? Could it be possible many of our reliable narrators were among the Mudalliseen - just like many Sunni reliable narrators. In that they would often not reveal intermediary sources? I recall Cake and Nader Zaveri demonstrating how Ibn Mahbub, a highly respectable narrator, not detailing an intermediary source. 

We have Saheeh narrations which are actually something the Greeks suggested, or from the Israeiliyaat, such as the Hadith about Mars being a warm/cold planet, the Earth being (even if it's esoteric) on the Belly of a Whale (which many of our own classical scholars rejected despite it having a Saheeh chain).

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, starlight said:

Care to explain?

1. Consistency 

2. Corroboration

3. Weak countering opinions

4. Respecting the integrity of our Hadith books

5. Valuing the meaning of Thiqa

6. Respecting our scholars and narrators, who have obtained Thiqa 

And more... 

 

But I won't be arguing this further.  I've made a decision to proceed forward to seek contexts and meanings. 

 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Any shia hadith book, sunni sufi sushi, you name it, none of these books make any sense - the only way they can make sense is if you have "scholars" telling you they make sense, if you ask questions they can't answer they tell you that you're not smart enough to understand these issues, or they will tell you to study yourself

There is a difference between any book and Hadith books. A book may be perplexing due to the author's approach or the topic but Hadith books have to be something different in which the author is just the last narrator of sayings attributed to the Prophet or Imams. I have skimmed through Sunni Hadith books and i do not find them so much stupefying as compared to Shia books. There are a number of problematic Hadiths in Bukhari/Muslim but when compared with Al-Kafi , the number is far lesser. Then you have Bihar al anwar of Majlisi which is replete with most problematic hadiths  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Leibniz said:

There is a difference between any book and Hadith books. A book may be perplexing due to the author's approach or the topic but Hadith books have to be something different in which the author is just the last narrator of sayings attributed to the Prophet or Imams. I have skimmed through Sunni Hadith books and i do not find them so much stupefying as compared to Shia books. There are a number of problematic Hadiths in Bukhari/Muslim but when compared with Al-Kafi , the number is far lesser. Then you have Bihar al anwar of Majlisi which is replete with most problematic hadiths  

I find shia sunni hadith books equally unreliable and contradictory... [edit] - i have issues with the Quran too, so that's just me.

Muslims can't even figure out how to calculate their calendar based off a fixed and mathematical universe... all because of how scholars interpret hadith... how are these people supposed to save us spiritually? Just don't see it happening

Edited by khamosh21
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17 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

I find shia sunni hadith books equally unreliable and contradictory... [edit] - i have issues with the Quran too, so that's just me.

Muslims can't even figure out how to calculate their calendar based off a fixed and mathematical universe... all because of how scholars interpret hadith... how are these people supposed to save us spiritually? Just don't see it happening

Right , sticking to orthodox Shia or Sunni creed these days need alot of blind faith. You shall have to fill your mind with religious fervor , stop questioning and become a part of herd. I wish Islam goes through some kind of global reformation like Christianity went through during the Protestant reformation otherwise there is no way out. "Scholars" from Hawzas and Madrassahs are just using the pulpits for sectarian purposes and religious scholarship has become more a matter of economics and finances 

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1 hour ago, Leibniz said:

There are a number of problematic Hadiths in Bukhari/Muslim but when compared with Al-Kafi , the number is far lesser.

Bukhari & Muslim contain Sahih hadith of Musa (عليه السلام) punching the Angel of Death. Just saying...

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1 minute ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Bukhari & Muslim contain Sahih hadith of Musa (عليه السلام) punching the Angel of Death. Just saying...

Right and much more , similarly Al Kafi contains hadiths narrated by donkeys

 أن أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام قال: إن ذلك الحمار كلم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله فقال: بأبي أنت وامي إن أبي حدثنى، عن أبيه، عن جده، عن أبيه أنه كان مع نوح في السفينة فقام إليه نوح فمسح على كفله ثم قال: يخرج من صلب هذا الحمار حمار يركبه سيد النبيين وخاتمهم، فالحمد لله الذي جعلني ذلك الحمار

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Leibniz said:

Right and much more , similarly Al Kafi contains hadiths narrated by donkeys

 أن أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام قال: إن ذلك الحمار كلم رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله فقال: بأبي أنت وامي إن أبي حدثنى، عن أبيه، عن جده، عن أبيه أنه كان مع نوح في السفينة فقام إليه نوح فمسح على كفله ثم قال: يخرج من صلب هذا الحمار حمار يركبه سيد النبيين وخاتمهم، فالحمد لله الذي جعلني ذلك الحمار

The hadith:
http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1122_الكافي-الشيخ-الكليني-ج-١/الصفحة_285

Twelver response:
http://www.aqaed.com/faq/442/

It's also in Sunni hadith books:

(https://www.facebook.com/Shia.of.world/posts/264751976946644/)

 

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
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Just now, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Right , Sunnis have "responses" to all those awkward hadiths as well. At the end of the day it all boils down to "My fart smells good while your's bad"

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