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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imam Hassan's Number of Divorces

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17 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Salam, 

The following narrations are both acceptable, found in Al-Kafi, one is Mawththaq and one is Saheeh. In both, it is narrated that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) warned people not to give in marriage to Imam Hassan (عليه السلام), since he frequently divorced. 

 

  حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً قَالَ وَ هُوَ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ لَا تُزَوِّجُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ هَمْدَانَ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُزَوِّجَنَّهُ وَ هُوَ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ ابْنُ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فَإِنْ شَاءَ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ شَاءَ طَلَّقَ 


  عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنِ بَزِيعٍ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ بَشِيرٍ عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ أَبِي الْعَلَاءِ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ إِنَّ الْحَسَنَ بْنَ عَلِيٍّ ع طَلَّقَ خَمْسِينَ امْرَأَةً فَقَامَ عَلِيٌّ ع بِالْكُوفَةِ فَقَالَ يَا مَعَاشِرَ أَهْلِ الْكُوفَةِ لَا تُنْكِحُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ إِلَيْهِ رَجُلٌ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُنْكِحَنَّهُ فَإِنَّهُ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ ابْنُ فَاطِمَةَ ع فَإِنْ أَعْجَبَتْهُ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ كَرِهَ طَلَّقَ 

 

Are there other reliable narrations that would clarify the concern here?

Thanks!

This hadith makes Imam Hassan look bad, not much like an Imam, and puts into question our conditioned beliefs - it must be wrong and rejected. This is the underlying emotion and logic behind all the answers.

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Disgraceful, illogical, shameful act when attributed to a Masoom nullifies authenticity of hadith. Masoom can't continue to divorce people that much since this is what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى

Have you even read the post I quoted?  Yeah because Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was unable to stop his son from womanizing astaghrifullah so he turned to request people to not give their daughters to

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5 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

This hadith makes Imam Hassan look bad, not much like an Imam, and puts into question our conditioned beliefs - it must be wrong and rejected. 

What conditioned beliefs you're talking about? That Imam is not Ma'sum? Or that Imams from Ahlul Bayt can be bad? 

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مكارم الأخلاق: روي أن الحسن بن علي (عليه السلام) تزوج زيادة على مائتين وربما كان يعقد على أربع في عقد واحد

Makarim al Akhlaq by Shaikh Tabrisi: It has been reported that Hasan b. Ali married more than two hundred women, and would sometimes marry four women in one sitting."

 

يقول المحدث الميرزا النوري في مستدرك الوسائل  ج ١٥ ص ٢٨٠حكاية عن ابن شهر آشوب في المناقب : عن أبي طالب في قوت القلوب أنه - يعني الحسن ( عليه السلام ) - تزوج مائتين وخمسين امرأة ، وقد قيل : ثلاثمائة ، وكان علي ( عليه السلام ) يضجر من ذلك ، فكان يقول في خطبته : " ان الحسن مطلاق فلا تنكحوه

 

 Muhadith Noori reprts in Mustadrak al Wasail (Volume 15, Page 250) a narration from ibn Shahr Ashoob: From abi Talib in Quwat al Quloob that he, that is Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) married two hundred and fifty women, and it is also said (that he married) three hundred, and Ali (عليه السلام) was anxious of  that, so he would say in his sermon: "Indeed Hasan divorces a lot so do not arrange Nikah with him."


We also have these reports in our books. Should we accept them all just because their narrators are thiqah as per our ilm-ul-rijal? 

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On 5/9/2020 at 5:15 AM, Logic1234 said:

مكارم الأخلاق: روي أن الحسن بن علي (عليه السلام) تزوج زيادة على مائتين وربما كان يعقد على أربع في عقد واحد

Makarim al Akhlaq by Shaikh Tabrisi: It has been reported that Hasan b. Ali married more than two hundred women, and would sometimes marry four women in one sitting."

 

يقول المحدث الميرزا النوري في مستدرك الوسائل  ج ١٥ ص ٢٨٠حكاية عن ابن شهر آشوب في المناقب : عن أبي طالب في قوت القلوب أنه - يعني الحسن ( عليه السلام ) - تزوج مائتين وخمسين امرأة ، وقد قيل : ثلاثمائة ، وكان علي ( عليه السلام ) يضجر من ذلك ، فكان يقول في خطبته : " ان الحسن مطلاق فلا تنكحوه

 

 Muhadith Noori reprts in Mustadrak al Wasail (Volume 15, Page 250) a narration from ibn Shahr Ashoob: From abi Talib in Quwat al Quloob that he, that is Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) married two hundred and fifty women, and it is also said (that he married) three hundred, and Ali (عليه السلام) was anxious of  that, so he would say in his sermon: "Indeed Hasan divorces a lot so do not arrange Nikah with him."


We also have these reports in our books. Should we accept them all just because their narrators are thiqah as per our ilm-ul-rijal? 

If Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) married 250 women and divorced only 50, what about the rest of 200 wives? Or what about 196 wives, considering that Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) left at least four of them as widows? 

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Kafi by Shaikh Kulaini (رضي الله عنه), Volume 6, Page 56, Section on divorcing the unsuitable woman

 

 حميد بن زياد عن الحسن بن محمد بن سماعة عن محمد بن زياد بن عيسى عن عبد الله بن سنان عن أبي عبد الله ع قال : إن عليا قال وهو على المنبر : لا تزوجوا الحسن فإنه رجل مطلاق فقام رجل من همدان فقال : بلى والله لنزوجنه وهو ابن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وابن أمير المؤمنين ع فإن شاء أمسك وإن شاء طلق

 

 Humaid b. Ziad from al Hasan b. Muhammad b. Sama'a from Muhammad b. Ziad b. Isa from Abdullah b. Sinan from abi Abdullah (عليه السلام) who said: Indeed Ali (عليه السلام) said, while he was on the pulpit: "Do not arrange marriage with al Hasan, for indeed he is a man who constantly divorces." So a man from Hamdan stood up then said: "Rather, by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) we will definitely arrange marriage with him, he is the son/progeny of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the son of commander of the faithful, so if he wishes he may keep and if he wishes he may divorce."

Here is a surprise, a man from Hamdan stood up & refused to accept the advise/command of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) 

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18 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Salam, The following narrations are both acceptable, found in Al-Kafi, one is Mawththaq and one is Saheeh.

I think you are putting too much authority on "authentic" reports. The 4 Shia books are full of contradictory authentic reports. 

Also what do you mean by authentic. There is no 1 consistent method to determine authenticity from a 12er perspective.

18 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Disgraceful, illogical, shameful act when attributed to a Masoom nullifies authenticity of hadith.

This and contradicting Quran should be more important then so called authentic books.

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Brother it is unlikely that you will get your answer over here. Most people are unaware of the most basic concepts of ilm ul hadith and ilm ur rijal, and have little to know knowledge of islamic history.

If you do however find some interesting answers in your research then please do share them here, since it would be interesting to hear an explanation apart from 'it doesn't sound right'. 

Jazakumallah. 

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2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

This hadith makes Imam Hassan look bad, not much like an Imam, and puts into question our conditioned beliefs - it must be wrong and rejected. This is the underlying emotion and logic behind all the answers.

You know that the Imams are slander magnets. For years no friday prayer began without the cursing of Imam Ali, and some Imams were hysterically targeted by tyrants from before they were even born. We can't just ignore the dynamic of society's perception of them. These people experienced laughable levels of hate and slander

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54 minutes ago, guest 2025 said:

You know that the Imams are slander magnets. For years no friday prayer began without the cursing of Imam Ali, and some Imams were hysterically targeted by tyrants from before they were even born. We can't just ignore the dynamic of society's perception of them. These people experienced laughable levels of hate and slander

Sure, but this hadith shows up in a shia hadith book, not something written by bani ummaya...

for the very reasons you have stated above, to what extent can anyone really rely on hadith? this is why you have this very unislamic tool called ilm rijal i.e. this ilm is a crutch for a broken hadith system that can barely walk without someone finding problems bias, or their own interpretation... ilm rijal does not have it's origins from the Imams, Prophet or Sunna

also how many hadith are out there which don't get mentioned or ignored because of prefixed beliefs? again talking abt hadith in SHIA hadith books

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3 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

What conditioned beliefs you're talking about? That Imam is not Ma'sum? Or that Imams from Ahlul Bayt can be bad? 

the logic we are using can be found among the sunni, whenever we point out hadith from sunni books which contradict their conditioned beliefs, they too reject the hadith or stretch the meaning of hadith to their liking... how are shia any different?

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On 5/9/2020 at 9:04 AM, khamosh21 said:

the logic we are using can be found among the sunni, whenever we point out hadith from sunni books which contradict their conditioned beliefs, they too reject the hadith or stretch the meaning of hadith to their liking... how are shia any different?

The answer is very simple. We dont have a manmade concept that declares all of our hadith books to be  Sahih. Sadly Sunnis do. Therefore it's difficult for our sunni brothers to reject the sahih hadiths.

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45 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

this is why you have this very unislamic tool called ilm rijal i.e. this ilm is a crutch for a broken hadith system that can barely walk without someone finding problems bias, or their own interpretation... ilm rijal does not have it's origins from the Imams, Prophet or Sunna

I told myself I would avoid derailing the brothers topic by getting pulled into side discussions, but I have to break my own rule here and point out the sheer irony of referring to a 'broken hadith system', 'unislamic tool' , 'ilm ur rijal' and in the same sentence 'origins from the Imam, Prophet or Sunna'. 

Surely you realize that it's the 'broken system' that gives you the Imams, Prophet and Sunna in the first place? 

The classical akhbari alternative was to accept all the narrations in the kutub al arba'a, but this hardly helps your argument because if anything it strengthens the narrations further. 

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but it would help to understand some basics of hadith sciences before engaging in such discussions.

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On 5/9/2020 at 9:01 AM, khamosh21 said:

Sure, but this hadith shows up in a shia hadith book, not something written by bani ummaya...

for the very reasons you have stated above, to what extent can anyone really rely on hadith? this is why you have this very unislamic tool called ilm rijal i.e. this ilm is a crutch for a broken hadith system that can barely walk without someone finding problems bias, or their own interpretation... ilm rijal does not have it's origins from the Imams, Prophet or Sunna

also how many hadith are out there which don't get mentioned or ignored because of prefixed beliefs? again talking abt hadith in SHIA hadith books

We don't have a concept of Sahih hadith books

Ilm al Rijal is just checking the sources

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Salamualaykum brother,

I will ask you what your view is of authentic (Saheeh) narrations which describe the earth being on the belly of a whale? Or Hasan or Muwathaq narrations clearly copying greek or ancient astrology claiming mars is a hot planet (or cold, i can't remember) but we accepted this was a carbon copy of ancient astrology and proven to be factually incorrect. We have many 'Saheeh' , 'Hasan' or 'Muwathaq' narrations with odd content. 

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24 minutes ago, Qa'im said:

Thanks brother.

As brother @Cake, in his comprehensive post, demonstrates, we ought not to reject these narrations, and it is likely that Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) was indeed a frequent-divorcer. 

Thanks to both you and brother @Cake.

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19 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Thanks brother.

As brother @Cake, in his comprehensive post, demonstrates, we ought not to reject these narrations, and it is likely that Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) was indeed a frequent-divorcer. 

Thanks to both you and brother @Cake.

Fair enough, but we need to ask ourselves, why did Imam al-Hassan marry and divorce so much , to the extent his father advised people not to marry him? 

Forgive me, but was there a reason why he participated in these marriages? Did he consistently pick bad women? Nauzubillah, this would never apply to the Aimmah, but some might argue divorcing in such a manner (dozens of times) might be an indication of some sort of personality disorder, which i seek refuge from Allah from ever accusing Imam al-Hassan of.

I don't believe in greek astrology which has snuck into our Ahadith, nor do i believe the earth is on the belly of a whale (and colourful gymnastics to justify that, even esoteric interpretations are not from Islam). 

It just seems incredibly odd for Imam al-Hassan to marry and divorce dozens of times. It's even more bizarre for one infallible (Ali b. Abi Talib) to advise people not to marry another infallible Imam (Imam al-Hassan). 

 

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1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

As brother @Cake, in his comprehensive post, demonstrates, we ought not to reject these narrations, and it is likely that Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) was indeed a frequent-divorcer. 

And you finally have accepted the conjectures.

 

 

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What is established is the greatness of al-Hasan (a). So, is it really conceivable that this would negate that or that the Imams, who were also close to him in lineage, would narrate this in order to disparage him? Similarly, divorce is established as disliked or inappropriate - except when there is a reason for it. Therefore, what naturally comes to my mind - as I later saw it had been stated by others - is that he divorced them because of issues with them. Indeed, this is why Kulayni actually placed his two narrations in the chapter on divorcing women who are unsuitable (بَابُ تَطْلِيقِ الْمَرْأَةِ غَيْرِ الْمُوَافِقَةِ). (His greatness and virtues precludes the possibility that he married and then divorced all of these women for the sake of lust, as pointed in the commentary of al-Kafi).

Of course, people are different. Some people are very picky when it comes to marriage, and so, when they finally wed, they have chosen a good, suitable person and someone compatible with them. Others marry more quickly, and may come to regret their decision later. Similarly, sometimes after marriage, a spouse's true character or behaviour or beliefs or something else is revealed. Their partner can either choose to be patient, or to try - sometimes fruitlessly - to reform them, or to call it quits. It would seem that al-Hasan (a) was of the latter type - someone who married quickly and/or who did not tolerate certain issues that became clear after marriage ( - in contrast to his brother who married relatively far fewer women). This is not a sin, and it should not be found problematic except for those who believe that the Imams were super-infallible super-humans. Moreover, we see in one of the narrations above that the women he divorced would love him - he cannot have been mistreating them in any way, so it is not as if the reason for these divorces was due to a fault in his side.

Conjectures all around. 

Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) belongs to Sadiqeen, Sabireen. He is from "Rasikhoona fil ilm" and he is shabab e ahlul jannah. And these are the well established facts about him.

Assuming him or giving him the title "frequent-divorcer" is an insult to him.

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I have a theory.

Imam al-Hassan was a wealthy, generous man. During his life time, there would have been many widows from the civil wars of Jamal, Siffin, Narhawan, and even the conquests preceding that. Perhaps he married many women, on the condition that supporting them, given his wealth, was on the condition they remain honourable. Perhaps many of these women were unsuitable nonetheless? 

Perhaps reports are inflated, but bear some truth to them? 

I'm skeptical either-way.  We aren't taking a couple of divorces, but literally dozens of divorces. 

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On 5/8/2020 at 12:30 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Salam, 

The following narrations are both acceptable, found in Al-Kafi, one is Mawththaq and one is Saheeh. In both, it is narrated that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) warned people not to give in marriage to Imam Hassan (عليه السلام), since he frequently divorced. 

 

  حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً قَالَ وَ هُوَ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ لَا تُزَوِّجُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ هَمْدَانَ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُزَوِّجَنَّهُ وَ هُوَ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ ابْنُ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فَإِنْ شَاءَ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ شَاءَ طَلَّقَ 


  عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنِ بَزِيعٍ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ بَشِيرٍ عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ أَبِي الْعَلَاءِ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ إِنَّ الْحَسَنَ بْنَ عَلِيٍّ ع طَلَّقَ خَمْسِينَ امْرَأَةً فَقَامَ عَلِيٌّ ع بِالْكُوفَةِ فَقَالَ يَا مَعَاشِرَ أَهْلِ الْكُوفَةِ لَا تُنْكِحُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ إِلَيْهِ رَجُلٌ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُنْكِحَنَّهُ فَإِنَّهُ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ ابْنُ فَاطِمَةَ ع فَإِنْ أَعْجَبَتْهُ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ كَرِهَ طَلَّقَ 

 

Are there other reliable narrations that would clarify the concern here?

Thanks!

Based on what you wrote here 

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235066469-battle-of-siffin/

You do believe in this Hadith: 

I am leaving among you the Two Weighty Things: the Book of Allah and my `Itrat (Progeny), my Ahlul Bayt. So long as you (simultaneously) uphold both of them, you will never be misled after me; so, do not go ahead of them else you should perish, and do not lag behind them else you should perish; do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.1

If the concept is clear, why would you be concerned with the above hadith. Is it that you are a hadith person and want to research, you need to understand that research question on or close to 15th of Ramadan, could have been directed to the hadith people directly instead of open forum (where there are many Laypeople). As others have provided material which is readily availiabe on the net. 

"do not teach them, for they are more knowledgeable than you.1

means don't judge them, as you are not aware or ignorant  of the reality. They are the Mawla/Master not you. 

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Here's a Saheeh narration (Al-Kafi, Vol.6, P. 75) of Imam Abu Ja'far (عليه السلام) telling the account of one of his own divorces. 

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ رِئَابٍ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ قَالَ سَأَلْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ ع عَنِ الطَّلَاقِ الَّذِي لَا يَحِلُّ لَهُ حَتَّى تَنْكِحَ زَوْجاً غَيْرَهُ فَقَالَ أُخْبِرُكَ بِمَا صَنَعْتُ أَنَا بِامْرَأَةٍ كَانَتْ عِنْدِي وَ أَرَدْتُ أَنْ أُطَلِّقَهَا فَتَرَكْتُهَا حَتَّى إِذَا طَمِثَتْ وَ طَهُرَتْ طَلَّقْتُهَا مِنْ غَيْرِ جِمَاعٍ وَ أَشْهَدْتُ عَلَى ذَلِكَ شَاهِدَيْنِ ثُمَّ تَرَكْتُهَا حَتَّى إِذَا كَادَتْ أَنْ تَنْقَضِيَ عِدَّتُهَا رَاجَعْتُهَا وَ دَخَلْتُ بِهَا وَ تَرَكْتُهَا حَتَّى إِذَا طَمِثَتْ وَ طَهُرَتْ ثُمَّ طَلَّقْتُهَا عَلَى طُهْرٍ مِنْ غَيْرِ جِمَاعٍ بِشَاهِدَيْنِ ثُمَّ تَرَكْتُهَا حَتَّى إِذَا كَانَ قَبْلَ أَنْ تَنْقَضِيَ عِدَّتُهَا رَاجَعْتُهَا وَ دَخَلْتُ بِهَا حَتَّى إِذَا طَمِثَتْ وَ طَهُرَتْ طَلَّقْتُهَا عَلَى طُهْرٍ بِغَيْرِ جِمَاعٍ بِشُهُودٍ وَ إِنَّمَا فَعَلْتُ ذَلِكَ بِهَا إِنَّهُ لَمْ يَكُنْ لِي بِهَا حَاجَةٌ

 

Sarwar's Translation: 

Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from al-Hassan ibn Mahbub from ibn Ri’ab from abu Basir who has said the following:

“I once asked abu Ja‘far, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, about the case of a divorce after the husband cannot marry without her being married to another man.

He (the Imam) said, ‘I can inform you about the woman who was with me and I wanted to divorce her and how I did. I left her until she experienced Hayd (menses) and became clean of Hayd (menses). I divorced her in the presence of two witnesses without going to bed with her. I then left her until waiting period was almost to expire. I went back to bed with her and then left her until she experienced Hayd (menses) and became clean, I then divorced her in a Hayd (menses)-free period in the presence of two witnesses without going to be with her then left her until her waiting period was almost to expire. I then went back to go to bed with her until she experienced Hayd (menses) and became clean of her Hayd (menses). I then divorced her in a Hayd (menses)-free period in the presence of witnesses without going to bed with her. I did so with her because I was not interested in her.’”

 

What's the appropriate way to understand this narration? It teaches us about what is legal and what is not, when it comes to divorce. But beyond that, why would Abu Ja'far (عليه السلام) do what he (عليه السلام) did? Going back and forth (almost divorce then return and have intercourse) a couple of times, if he was not interested in her? Did he know he (عليه السلام) was not interested, before going back and forth?

 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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3 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

What's the appropriate way to understand this narration? It teaches us about what is legal and what is not, when it comes to divorce. But beyond that, why would Abu Ja'far (عليه السلام) do what he (عليه السلام) did? Going back and forth (almost divorce then return and have intercourse) a couple of times, if he was not interested in her? Did he know he (عليه السلام) was not interested, before going back and forth?

Brother, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best but I wonder if this was explained and elaborated for jurisprudential reasons. We know that in other schools that eventually developed, the rules for divorce are quite different although I am not sure what the status was during the time of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) since these madhahib didn't yet exist.

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28 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Brother, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best but I wonder if this was explained and elaborated for jurisprudential reasons. We know that in other schools that eventually developed, the rules for divorce are quite different although I am not sure what the status was during the time of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) since these madhahib didn't yet exist.

You may be right, brother. As I go through chapters after chapters on divorce, I can see that there's a strong emphasis on teaching how to do it correctly, what is a valid form of divorce and what is not. 

In this specific narration, considering that the imam (عليه السلام) gives a personal example, I wonder, what else he's trying to show/teach. Maybe he's trying to remove a cultural taboo or misunderstanding? The same like way when the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) married his adopted son's ex-wife. 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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9 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

But beyond that, why would Abu Ja'far (عليه السلام) do what he (عليه السلام) did? Going back and forth (almost divorce then return and have intercourse) a couple of times, if he was not interested in her? Did he know he (عليه السلام) was not interested, before going back and forth?

You need to figure out why he ((عليه السلام)) became not interested in her. And only he can give you the answer of this question.

 

9 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

وَ إِنَّمَا فَعَلْتُ ذَلِكَ بِهَا إِنَّهُ لَمْ يَكُنْ لِي بِهَا حَاجَةٌ

And you don't like to play around conjectures. 

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In defense of imam hasan he was 

Resembling the prophet i.e very handsome 

Mild disposition 

Probably the most sought after guy in all Arabia 

I think the fact that he divorced these women rather than kept them as wives should be seen as a POSITIVE rather than negative.Judging a tribal leader of 7th century by Victorian era standards of morality is incredibly harsh 

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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1 hour ago, Panzerwaffe said:

I think the fact that he divorced these women rather than kept them as wives should be seen as a POSITIVE rather than negative.

His "knowledge" that divorce is hateful in the sight of God & his status i.e., rasikhoona fil ilm & syeda shababe ahlul jannah will remain the problem in any case of assumption. 

 

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On 5/9/2020 at 7:23 PM, Mahdavist said:

I told myself I would avoid derailing the brothers topic by getting pulled into side discussions, but I have to break my own rule here and point out the sheer irony of referring to a 'broken hadith system', 'unislamic tool' , 'ilm ur rijal' and in the same sentence 'origins from the Imam, Prophet or Sunna'. 

Surely you realize that it's the 'broken system' that gives you the Imams, Prophet and Sunna in the first place? 

The classical akhbari alternative was to accept all the narrations in the kutub al arba'a, but this hardly helps your argument because if anything it strengthens the narrations further. 

I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but it would help to understand some basics of hadith sciences before engaging in such discussions.

fair enough...

i guess the important question is why the scholar compiling this hadith book, left this very obvious hadith, that even the average shia on this forum can see is wrong, left it in this book of hadith?

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51 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

fair enough...

i guess the important question is why the scholar compiling this hadith book, left this very obvious hadith, that even the average shia on this forum can see is wrong, left it in this book of hadith?

The obvious answer is that the average Shia is wrong, and Kulayni and the other reliable narrators (with thiqa) in this narration saw no reason to censor or to hide this narration. 

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37 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

The obvious answer is that the average Shia is wrong, and Kulayni and the other reliable narrators (with thiqa) in this narration saw no reason to censor or to hide this narration. 

Because there is nothing wrong or scandalous in these ahadith,  this is only an issue for a generation raised in a set of values totally alien to the culture of 7th century.

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3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

when you can't deny it, defend it

Ofcourse our ghariat will not allow anyone to point fingers at him 

Even though if I was there in his time I would probably disagree with him strongly about making peace with muawiyah 

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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I think this is a non-issue really to distract us from Imam Hasan's (عليه السلام) struggle against Mu'awiyah and his cronies. Some people these days try to downplay the Hasan-Muawiyah conflict by bringing up non-issues like the number of Imam Hasan's wives. If they focussed on the real issue it would once again bring into question the character of Muawiyah ibn Sufyan - who they call Khatib al-Wahi or Khal al-Mumineen.

Imam (عليه السلام) was betrayed by the Kharajis who said he had became kafir like his father when he made a truce with Mu'awiyah.

The weak minded followers of Imam Hasan (a) amongst him accused him of disbelief after his truce due to his dwindling numbers, he was stabbed by his own followers after a rumour was started that his army had turned on him. These rumours were started by Muawiyah's camp.

Later on, these same people would write letters to Husayn ibn 'Ali (عليه السلام) then fight him - people like Shabath ibn Ribi'i etc

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@gharib570

Shabath b ribi'i

What a name to bring up bro , a very interesting character 

Let me know what you dislike or find most intriguing about him ?

He represents IMHO the best worst ugliest and mercurial nature of iraqi tribal politics 

Edited by Panzerwaffe
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4 minutes ago, gharib570 said:

I think this is a non-issue really to distract us from Imam Hasan's (عليه السلام) struggle against Mu'awiyah and his cronies. Some people these days try to downplay the Hasan-Muawiyah conflict by bringing up non-issues like the number of Imam Hasan's wives. If they focussed on the real issue it would once again bring into question the character of Muawiyah ibn Sufyan - who they call Khatib al-Wahi or Khal al-Mumineen.

Imam (عليه السلام) was betrayed by the Kharajis who said he had became kafir like his father when he made a truce with Mu'awiyah.

The weak minded followers of Imam Hasan (a) amongst him accused him of disbelief after his truce due to his dwindling numbers, he was stabbed by his own followers after a rumour was started that his army had turned on him. These rumours were started by Muawiyah's camp.

Later on, these same people would write letters to Husayn ibn 'Ali (عليه السلام) then fight him - people like Shabath ibn Ribi'i etc

I agree it's a character assasination ploy 

But no everyone who criticized Hasan (عليه السلام) on truce was not a true follower or well wisher , these were troubled times 

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