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In the Name of God بسم الله

Imam Hassan's Number of Divorces

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Salam, 

The following narrations are both acceptable, found in Al-Kafi, one is Mawththaq and one is Saheeh. In both, it is narrated that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) warned people not to give in marriage to Imam Hassan (عليه السلام), since he frequently divorced. 

 

  حُمَيْدُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سَمَاعَةَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ زِيَادِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ إِنَّ عَلِيّاً قَالَ وَ هُوَ عَلَى الْمِنْبَرِ لَا تُزَوِّجُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ رَجُلٌ مِنْ هَمْدَانَ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُزَوِّجَنَّهُ وَ هُوَ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ ابْنُ أَمِيرِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ ع فَإِنْ شَاءَ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ شَاءَ طَلَّقَ 


  عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنِ بَزِيعٍ عَنْ جَعْفَرِ بْنِ بَشِيرٍ عَنْ يَحْيَى بْنِ أَبِي الْعَلَاءِ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ إِنَّ الْحَسَنَ بْنَ عَلِيٍّ ع طَلَّقَ خَمْسِينَ امْرَأَةً فَقَامَ عَلِيٌّ ع بِالْكُوفَةِ فَقَالَ يَا مَعَاشِرَ أَهْلِ الْكُوفَةِ لَا تُنْكِحُوا الْحَسَنَ فَإِنَّهُ رَجُلٌ مِطْلَاقٌ فَقَامَ إِلَيْهِ رَجُلٌ فَقَالَ بَلَى وَ اللَّهِ لَنُنْكِحَنَّهُ فَإِنَّهُ ابْنُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ ص وَ ابْنُ فَاطِمَةَ ع فَإِنْ أَعْجَبَتْهُ أَمْسَكَ وَ إِنْ كَرِهَ طَلَّقَ 

 

Are there other reliable narrations that would clarify the concern here?

Thanks!

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Disgraceful, illogical, shameful act when attributed to a Masoom nullifies authenticity of hadith. Masoom can't continue to divorce people that much since this is what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى

Have you even read the post I quoted?  Yeah because Imam Ali (عليه السلام) was unable to stop his son from womanizing astaghrifullah so he turned to request people to not give their daughters to

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On 5/8/2020 at 11:43 AM, Be1a1 said:

This article doesn't address the fact that the narrations in al-Kafi are saheeh and mawththaq, narrated by the same narrators that we trust everywhere else in our Hadith books. 

Everything else in this article is not effective until the above point is addressed. 

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On 5/8/2020 at 11:30 AM, SoRoUsH said:

The following narrations are both acceptable

On what grounds they look acceptable to you?

On 5/8/2020 at 11:30 AM, SoRoUsH said:

In both, it is narrated that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) warned people not to give in marriage to Imam Hassan (عليه السلام), since he frequently divorced. 

Instead of giving this public statement, Why not he simply commanded his son not to divorce wives frequently?

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13 minutes ago, starlight said:

Because there is nothing better than to this to commemorate his birth?

As I said above, we need to address why the narrators in these two narrations are considered unreliable, but the same narrators, everywhere else, are considered reliable. 

Nothing else is effective until the above point is addressed.

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People need to be very careful here! 

They're dismissing narrations with reliable narrators. They're conjuring strawman arguments to reject these narrations with reliable narrators. If the same narrators had said anything else, no one would question them. And no one has or does anywhere else, except here. Just here. This is alarming.

The very core of our Hadith framework is at play here. We can't just use (strawman) tangential arguments to reject a narration we don't like. If you trust these narrators everywhere else in our books, then you ought to trust them here, too. No cherry-picking should be allowed!

Edited by SoRoUsH
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1 minute ago, SoRoUsH said:

Reliable narrators in the isnad of these narrations

Have you tested the matn of this hadith on the next tool i.e., dirayah? 

Like I said how can Imam Ali (عليه السلام) make such public statement at first place? 

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

Like I said how can Imam Ali (عليه السلام) make such public statement at first place? 

Perhaps there's a lesson to be learned. 

There are numerous narrations soon after these "controversial" narrations that speak about the importance of divorcing according to the Sunnah. And if a divorce is not done according to the Sunnah, then it's not valid. 

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2 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

Perhaps there's a lesson to be learned. 

There are numerous narrations soon after these "controversial" narrations that speak about the importance of divorcing according to the Sunnah. And if a divorce is not done according to the Sunnah, then it's not valid. 

So what's the lesson here? Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) did not divorced his alleged 50 wives according to Sunnah?

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Lets use common sense for a while @SoRoUsH. Suppose your son used to divorce girls frequently, would you prefer to stand on pulpit and give a public statement advising people not to marry their girls with your son or would you first try to express your concerns to your son or try to teach him/guide him? 

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6 minutes ago, Cool said:

So what's the lesson here? Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) did not divorced his alleged 50 wives according to Sunnah?

I don't know. But neither do you. You're assuming [1] there's no lesson here, [2] these narrations aren't acceptable. 

I'd rather make no assumption. And most importantly, we ought to remain consistent. 

If we trust the narrators of these narrations everywhere else in our books, and we do, we ought to trust them here, too. 

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Just now, Cool said:

Lets use common sense for a while @SoRoUsH. Suppose your son used to divorce girls frequently, would you prefer to stand on pulpit and give a public statement advising people not to marry their girls with your son or would you first try to express your concerns to your son or try to teach him/guide him? 

As I said, I won't play around with conjectures. You can do as you wish. 

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1 minute ago, SoRoUsH said:

As I said, I won't play around with conjectures. You can do as you wish. 

This means a lot. 

1. Your ma'rifah of your Imam seems obscured.

2. You are expecting from your Imam such an action which seems not acceptable to human intellect. Whether it is the alleged public statement of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) or alleged frequent divorces of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)

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The only useful and effective approach to counter these acceptable narrations would be to present other authentic narrations that either contextualize these narrations or provide a framework to better understand them. 

We cannot outright reject these authentic narrations. We cannot and must not cherry-pick. We can either understand them properly or contextualize them. And to do either, we'd need other reliable narrations, related to the content of these narrations.

So, until other reliable narrations are posted in this thread, I won't make any further replies. 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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19 minutes ago, SoRoUsH said:

They're dismissing narrations with reliable narrators. They're conjuring strawman arguments to reject these narrations with reliable narrators. If the same narrators had said anything else, no one would question them. And no one has or does anywhere else, except here. Just here. This is alarming.

This is not alarming but perfectly fine. Even if the narration is perfect with respect to sanad, it is thrown away if the matn doesn't qualify. Ahlulbayt (عليهم اسلام) are Ma'soom, narrators aren't. They could've made mistake unintentionally. Forget about sinning Ahlulbayt (عليهم اسلام) don't even do tarke awla. 

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On 5/8/2020 at 12:34 PM, SoRoUsH said:

The only useful and effective approach to counter these acceptable narrations would be to present other authey narrations that either contextualize these narrations or provide a framework to better understand them. 

You have already rejected a work of scholar. Who proved historically the origin of the allegations.

On 5/8/2020 at 11:43 AM, Be1a1 said:
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Divorcing 50 wives

Having 4 at a time, you can divorce 4 wives in 3 months

That makes 16 divorces per year

Means 1.33 DIVORCES per month.

So time needed to divorce 50 wives would be Around 3.16 years roughly.

But i completely ignored the time it took to marry those 50 and time he spent with those 50.

It seems logical? 

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I think it’s noteworthy pointing out that we don’t interpret ahadith, as well as the Quran, as we see it. We aren’t literalists. There are scholars who study years upon years the science of ahadith. There are strict criteria for the science of ahadith once one studies in Hawza. That said, that’s because some narrator may be trustworthy, doesn’t mean all the ahadith involving him would be authentic. The chain of narrators has to be put under scrutiny, and if it is passable, then the hadith itself is matched against the beliefs of Imamah, the Prophet (peace be upon them all), and the Quran. Therefore for the second step, we apply methodology under the dirayat al-hadith, not to be confused with riwayat, which means the mere narration of a hadith. Such methodology emphasises the necessity of understanding hadiths, the superiority of understanding hadiths over merely narrating them, and the low number of people who understand hadiths as opposed to those who just narrate them. I don’t think many people understand how rigorous our ahadith studies and standards are comparing to other religions. Not everything in al-Kafi or Nahjul Balagha is authentic.

As for the subject itself, we need evaluation of it from the ahadith experts, and I’m talking about people who study the sciences for years. Need details about chain of narrators and it’s strength, these involved in the chain, and if proven authentic, the meaning behind such words because there could be a particular moment or situation where they were stated. Such hadith could be as well a part of larger narrations, not present for these two etc. It’s not as easy as Wahhabis do it, opening a book and deriving fiqh rulings from it based upon our personal preferences. 

Edit; Just a quick reminder, we aren’t Ahl al-Hadith like Wahhabis. Our theology isn’t derived only from them. 

Edited by OrthodoxTruth
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Another sad case of a Rijalist, a person who ignores everything else except isnad from a couple of cherry picked hadiths, which is not the way of our religion. Ilm ur rijal is just a tool in the tool box of checking hadith health, it certainly is not a stand alone holy grail to find the truth, let alone attack an immaculate Imam or a core principle of religion.

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Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) has declared:

عن أبی عبدالله (ع) قال: «إنَّ الله عزّ و جلّ یحبّ البیت الذی فیه العرس، و یبغض البیت الذی فیه الطلاق، و ما من شیء أبغض من الطلاق.»

Verily, Allah loves a house in which a wedding is held and hates a house in which a divorce is conducted and there is nothing more hateful than divorce.

Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) has announced:

عن أبی عبدالله (ع) قال: «ما من شیءٍ اُحلّه الله أبغض إلیه من الطلاق، و إنّ الله یبغض المطلاق الذّواق.»

Among that which Allah has made permissible there is nothing He hates more than divorce and Allah hates a man who divorces and marries many women.

Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) had stated:

عن الصادق (ع) قال: «تزوّجوا و لا تطلّقوا؛ فإنّ الطلاق یهتزّ منه العرش.»

Marry and do not divorce because surely divorce shakes the very Throne of God [‘Arsh]

After these references, I would like to quote famous hadith of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) where he said:

"Hassan & Hussain are prince of the youth of jannah."

Now consider the ahadith shared in OP. What would they mean? 

Either it means that Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) was ignorant of the fact the Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) dislikes divorces. Or either it means that he doesn't care of divine liking & disliking. (Na'uzobillah)

Both of these conclusions are not possible as it is not expected from the one who is "syeda shababe ahlul jannah" to ignore the divine liking & disliking. And it is also unimaginable that a "rasikhoona fil ilm" is ignorant of the fact that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) dislikes divorces. 

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37 minutes ago, Cool said:

Now consider the ahadith shared in OP. What would they mean? 

Either it means that Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) was ignorant of the fact the Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) dislikes divorces. Or either it means that he doesn't care of divine liking & disliking. (Na'uzobillah)

Or possibly, you've posed a false dichotomy. Perhaps there's a third way to understand this seeming friction. The mentally-lazy approach is to just cherry-pick and reject it. 

How else could we reconcile the authentic narrations in the OP with the narrations you posted? Is there a third way to understand Imam Hassan's (عليه السلام) divorces and Imam Ali's (عليه السلام) actions? 

What else could've been happening? 

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Those who resort to the mentally-lazy approach of cherry-picking and rejecting the narrations in the OP seem to forget the following:

Every single trustworthy narrator (with thiqa) in the isnad of these narrations has passed along these narrations mindfully, with care, knowing its content. These narrators (with thiqa) weren't dumb parrots or tape recorders. They received a narration, examined it, and transmitted it. Each reliable narrator must have examined the narration that were transmitting. If they had questions, they'd ask. If the narration seemed blatantly false, they would asked for clarification. They wouldn't have just transmitted a narration, which they would've believed was outright false and fabricated. These reliable narrators (with thiqa) wouldn't fabricate narrations. They wouldn't lie. Think about all the check-points that these narrations must have gone through, with each transmitter, generation after generation. 

Think about the book of Al-Kafi itself. It's reached us through an authentic chain. And ultimately, think about how these narrations arrived at Kulayni's possession. 

Are we so bold and audacious to claim that every trustworthy transmitter in these narrations, and Kulayni, must have missed such obvious problems? 

Let's not be mindless reactionaries.

We respect and trust these narrators, with thiqa, just as we did and do everywhere else in our four Hadith books. And we trust and respect Kulayni, knowing none of them would've passed along something that is apparently so blatantly false. 

Edited by SoRoUsH
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The mentally-lazy approach is literalism. Another dangerous thing on this forum and elsewhere is how nowadays, due to the wide access of internet, many Shias become self-declared “experts” in religion. Never mind people who study it entire lifes and write scholarly works stretching over hundreds of pages, my own thoughts are what counts... We follow maraji’ on fiqh rulings. If you still don’t understand that we do not apply literalism and we have very rigorous process of evaluating the ahadith, and whatever else was mentioned previously, e-mail your marja about this subject. Some people slowly descend into going against the beliefs and theology of the orthodox Islam and this is very dangerous as it leads to misguidance, heresy and even apostasy. Ahmad al-Hassan is a perfect modern example of that. 

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On 5/8/2020 at 3:30 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Every single trustworthy narrator (with thiqa) in the isnad of these narrations has passed along these narrations mindfully,

Well, who is more trustworthy, the narrator or the Imam (عليه السلام)? Should we put trust on narrators more than the ma'sum Imams? 

Just because a thiqah narrator has reported that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) advised people not to marry their daughters to Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) as he divorces a lot, makes his report like a verse of Quran? 

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On 5/8/2020 at 2:56 PM, SoRoUsH said:

How else could we reconcile the authentic narrations in the OP with the narrations you posted? Is there a third way to understand Imam Hassan's (عليه السلام) divorces and Imam Ali's (عليه السلام) actions? 

What else could've been happening? 

You may use mentally proactive approach in finding the answers without using conjectures. 

On 5/8/2020 at 12:28 PM, SoRoUsH said:

As I said, I won't play around with conjectures

For me, it is sufficient that I know who is Imam Hassan (عليه السلام). And my knowledge of him is not based on conjectures rather it is based on Quran & hadith specifically. 

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On 5/8/2020 at 1:16 PM, OrthodoxTruth said:

I think it’s noteworthy pointing out that we don’t interpret ahadith, as well as the Quran, as we see it. We aren’t literalists. There are scholars who study years upon years the science of ahadith. There are strict criteria for the science of ahadith once one studies in Hawza. That said, that’s because some narrator may be trustworthy, doesn’t mean all the ahadith involving him would be authentic. The chain of narrators has to be put under scrutiny, and if it is passable, then the hadith itself is matched against the beliefs of Imamah, the Prophet (peace be upon them all), and the Quran. Therefore for the second step, we apply methodology under the dirayat al-hadith, not to be confused with riwayat, which means the mere narration of a hadith. Such methodology emphasises the necessity of understanding hadiths, the superiority of understanding hadiths over merely narrating them, and the low number of people who understand hadiths as opposed to those who just narrate them. I don’t think many people understand how rigorous our ahadith studies and standards are comparing to other religions. Not everything in al-Kafi or Nahjul Balagha is authentic.

This sounds so much like shooting an arrow and then drawing the target wherever it lands.

So the Imams would speak to common average, many times uneducated people - they weren't speaking to scholars. For some reason we have to become scholars before trying to understand the very common words of the Imam?

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