Anyone else surprised by how illegitimate children are described here?

[Gaius I. Caesar]

5 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it's just about that they can't lead prayers & become Marja that needs Justice factor

You misunderstood me. Without speaking of hawza and the requirements of marja: Are illegitimate children are pretty much damned to grow up as a unjust and immoral group of people because of the actions of their parents? 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Are illegitimate children are pretty much damned to grow up as a unjust and immoral group of people because of the actions of their parents? 

I don't think so. They would nullify the concept of free will and accountability in after life.

[Gaius I. Caesar]

3 hours ago, starlight said:

I don't think so. They would nullify the concept of free will and accountability in after life.

If it violates accountability and freewill in the afterlife, then why would a marja be so irresponsible as to say "Illegitimate children inherit bad manners, breaking of laws and sins from their parents. For them the ground for sins and crime is more feasible..." if this contradicts the Qur'an? 

Does Ayatullah Nasir Shirazi believe he knows what's in people's hearts and not Allah? (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) I know he was talking about the fact that illegitimate children can't be marja. It just strikes me as arrogant to make sweeping statements on people like that. 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Gaius I. Caesar

[Diaz]

I have a question, does it make it an illegitimate child if the woman got married to the father of her child before she gives birth?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Illegitimate children inherit bad manners, breaking of laws and sins from their parents. For them the ground for sins and crime is more feasible..."

Just like a child of diabetic parents inherits certain genes from his parents that makes him more prone to diabetes. He has some control over his life. He can choose to adopt a healthy lifestyle and dietary measures which enables him to live a productive life or he can just let himself go thinking I am going to end up sick anyway. This is his freewill. And if a person made decisions about his life that lead to loss of his health then he will be answerable for it.

[confusedandannoyed]

On 5/12/2020 at 2:51 PM, starlight said:

Just like a child of diabetic parents inherits certain genes from his parents that makes him more prone to diabetes. He has some control over his life. He can choose to adopt a healthy lifestyle and dietary measures which enables him to live a productive life or he can just let himself go thinking I am going to end up sick anyway. This is his freewill. And if a person made decisions about his life that lead to loss of his health then he will be answerable for it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but by comparing sinning to having diabetes, you are implying that the likelihood of criminal behaviour/sinning in illegitimate children is genetically passed down to them from the parents, just like any physical disease. 

[Gaius I. Caesar]

On 5/12/2020 at 2:51 PM, starlight said:

Just like a child of diabetic parents inherits certain genes from his parents that makes him more prone to diabetes.

True, but I don't think we inherit sins, such an idea is akin to the Christian concept of Original Sin from Adam(عليه السلام) and Eve (s), which is we know is false and haram.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, confusedandannoyed said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but by comparing sinning to having diabetes, you are implying that the likelihood of criminal behaviour/sinning in illegitimate children is genetically passed down to them from the parents, just like any physical disease. 

No, I am merely saying that events surrounding one's birth can influence certain areas of a person's life which can be considered disadvantages or not depending how one looks at it.

If someone isn't a natural born US citizen and then he can't run for the president(not very familiar with US Constitution but that's how I think it is) because of circumstances completely out of his control. 

When I used diabetes as an example I was trying to say that even though it might seem unfair but parents and genes can give one disbenefits and hindrances encompassing other areas too, not just religious, and we have come to accept those. It's the same for religious positions.

[iCenozoic]

As an illegitimate child myself, I am personally quite proud of my accomplishments and upstanding lack of a criminal record. 

Interesting topic!

[Abdul-Hadi]

9 hours ago, Gaius I. Caesar said:

True, but I don't think we inherit sins, such an idea is akin to the Christian concept of Original Sin from Adam(عليه السلام) and Eve (s), which is we know is false and haram.

I'm really glad to learn that Islam doesn't believe in Original Sin. As a former Christian, I have always had a massive problem with that dogma as it's quite literally absurd and has no basis in reality at all.

Christians like to explain their doctrine of salvation using courtroom analogies. I know of no courts outside of those that existed in long-fallen fascist/communist dictatorships wherein your great grandfather could steal a loaf of bread and you the great grandchild, would be thrown in jail for it.

Yet another reason why I reverted.

[dragonxx]

While I am sure there are diseases of spirituality beyond our understanding, similar to some mental/physical diseases (ex. intercourse in certain ways can lead to insanity or physical defects in the child),

another way to look at it is a person born out of wedlock means the parents do not care for the sanctity of religion and are very likely to raise the child in an environment which is neglectful of many things religion finds important. Thus they inherit the ill manners of their parents, such as not being thankful to God, swearing, consuming alcohol etc. etc.

An analogy would be, a person who grows up in a household with alcohol consumption is more likely to drink alcohol at an earlier point in their life than a person who is not raised in a household with alcohol.

Or a household with guns carries a higher risk of suicide than a household without guns.

etc. etc.

[Ashvazdanghe]

 

[Botak]

Its interesting how this kind of thread in the past, most people followed Ayatollah Shirazi view, but I guess time changes

(Just search "shiachat illegitimate children" and pick a thread from around the 2010s)

[khadumvaliasr]

On 9/22/2024 at 8:21 AM, Botak said:

Its interesting how this kind of thread in the past, most people followed Ayatollah Shirazi view, but I guess time changes

I think Shia views change over short time periods on certain topics , depending on which alim has made topic popular and  or controversial.

But I agree , it interesting from a sociological perspective.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

Referring to this thread, Some of the decision making positions are disallowed to the Illegitimate born such as being a judge and a Marja and a Leader, the reason of this is that because an illegitimate child is born out of illegality, it may happen that he may develop soft attitude towards certain illegalities due to which the future of a nation may be at stake. So, it is the main reason that illegitimate born are withheld from holding such positions.

[Northwest]

3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

because an illegitimate child is born out of illegality, it may happen that he may develop soft attitude towards certain illegalities due to which the future of a nation may be at stake

@Borntowitnesstruth There also seem to be some traditions to the effect that the offspring inherits some kind of spiritual “taint” as well, apart from anything that he learns from the examples of his parents. There are also some narrations that suggest an illegitimate person cannot under any circumstances attain Paradise, owing in part to the spiritual “taint.” (I have heard of claims to the contrary, but the evidence, to me, seems ambiguous at best.) Problematically, however, these claims would clash with the notion of free will, the belief that we can choose our eternal fate here and now. Barring an illegitimate person from Paradise on account of background would seemingly encourage a tendency to fatalism, by undermining a belief in merit and personal reform. Like people of other traditions, a lot of individual Muslims seem to place more emphasis on factors such as lineage than personal effort, as though circumstances of birth essentially dictate faith (i.e., if your ancestors were grievous sinners, then you will be, too).

[Borntowitnesstruth]

33 minutes ago, Northwest said:

@Borntowitnesstruth There also seem to be some traditions to the effect that the offspring inherits some kind of spiritual “taint” as well, apart from anything that he learns from the examples of his parents. There are also some narrations that suggest an illegitimate person cannot under any circumstances attain Paradise, owing in part to the spiritual “taint.” (I have heard of claims to the contrary, but the evidence, to me, seems ambiguous at best.) Problematically, however, these claims would clash with the notion of free will, the belief that we can choose our eternal fate here and now. Barring an illegitimate person from Paradise on account of background would seemingly encourage a tendency to fatalism, by undermining a belief in merit and personal reform. Like people of other traditions, a lot of individual Muslims seem to place more emphasis on factors such as lineage than personal effort, as though circumstances of birth essentially dictate faith (i.e., if your ancestors were grievous sinners, then you will be, too).

I have read in Quran that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says that No one will bear the burden of another. This is reminder for those who say that an Illegitimate will be judged unjustly by Allah (عزّ وجلّ) because if someone deserve the punishment for his such status its his or her parents and not the illegitimate born because he had not hand in being born with such status. It is also their parents who took away his right to being heir to their property and making him incapable to obtain some important positions. So, he or she is not to be burdened with actions of others. As far as the matter of entering into heaven is concerned, one can argue about such narrations that the only criteria for which heaven is promised in Quran is piety and not any other condition such as legitimacy. In fact, if I recall that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) used to treat the homeless children very kindly, once he was asked by those children that people taunt them because they do not know their father, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said them that if they are asked again tell them that your father is Ali-Ibn-Abu Talib. This shows that we are to treat them kindly and give them due respect as humans. 

Edited September 24, 2024 by Borntowitnesstruth

[Northwest]

2 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

I have read in Quran that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) says that No one will bear the burden of another.

I have heard this stock answer before, but I don’t think that one can divorce such a verse from its context, some of which may lie in (authentic) narrations. A sweeping generalisation all too often can be used to promote a saccharine narrative: a story that appeals to our personal bias, but overlooks evidence to the contrary—and the question it raises. Our modern perspective tends to creep in and colour our worldview; if something seems inconsistent with our subjective notion of God’s “fairness,” it is dismissed as something that can be explained away. In reality it is something that our worldview perceives as unpleasant, not necessarily false.

2 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

This is reminder for those who say that an Illegitimate will be judged unjustly by Allah (عزّ وجلّ)

To be fair, I am not making an insinuation about God’s justice. Even if illegitimate people were excluded from Paradise, God’s inscrutable justness would not necessarily be endangered (or vindicated).

2 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

because if someone deserve the punishment for his such status it’s his or her parents and not the illegitimate born because he had not hand in being born with such status. It is also their parents who took away his right to being heir to their property and making him incapable to obtain some important positions. So, he or she is not to be burdened with actions of others.

But the illegitimate offspring are effectively “burdened,” if one may use that term, with a relatively low position in society and the stigma of social origin. The fact that an illegitimate person cannot hold a lot of senior positions also does suggest that something more than mere honour and shame might be at work, i.e., the possibility that he may be “burdened” with a negative spiritual inheritance as well—irrespective of his thoughts and deeds so far in his life.

2 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

As far as the matter of entering into heaven is concerned, one can argue about such narrations that the only criteria for which heaven is promised in Quran is piety and not any other condition such as legitimacy.

Origin seems to have played a (much?) larger role in Islamic history than it has in modern society, however. Traditional Islamic society was very much based on class, caste, family, clan, tribe, race, and so on. Society was more sensitive to social maladies than it is today. Strictures against illegitimacy and other abnormalities were enforced accordingly, in order to better preserve inheritance, social stability, and so on.

2 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

In fact, if I recall that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) used to treat the homeless children very kindly, once he was asked by those children that people taunt them because they do not know their father, Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said them that if they are asked again tell them that your father is Ali-Ibn-Abu Talib.

Being an orphan is very different from being illegitimate.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

35 minutes ago, Northwest said:

I have heard this stock answer before, but I don’t think that one can divorce such a verse from its context, some of which may lie in (authentic) narrations. A sweeping generalisation all too often can be used to promote a saccharine narrative: a story that appeals to our personal bias, but overlooks evidence to the contrary—and the question it raises. Our modern perspective tends to creep in and colour our worldview; if something seems inconsistent with our subjective notion of God’s “fairness,” it is dismissed as something that can be explained away. In reality it is something that our worldview perceives as unpleasant, not necessarily false.

3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

I do not really say that because it seemed to me to be against Divine principle of fairness. Rather, it is the conduct of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) that reveal such thing to me. I recall an event that when the homeless children of Kufa shared their concern with Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that people often taunted them for not knowing their father. To which Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that if you are asked such question again tell them that Ali ibn Abu Talib is your father. And, when one of our infallible Imam was asked why is that people will be raised by the name of their mothers on judgement day and not by their father name, to which Imam replied that it is because Allah (عزّ وجلّ) dislike anyone to be ashamed of being born illegitimate So, these conduct of our Holy Imams shows to us that Allah (عزّ وجلّ) had already arranged for taunts which they have to face in this world and hereafter. In the world, they are known to be children of the Holy Personalities and in the Judgement day they will be under the guardianship of Allah (عزّ وجلّ). If Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has took care of such minor thing for them, then how can we assume that He (عزّ وجلّ) will not take care of them other serious matters such as Heaven and Hell,

 

48 minutes ago, Northwest said:

To be fair, I am not making an insinuation about God’s justice. Even if illegitimate people were excluded from Paradise, God’s inscrutable justness would not necessarily be endangered (or vindicated).

3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Based on some narrations, we cannot be sure that God would really want some people to be out of heaven even though they were pious, the reason of this is that a good treasure of Islam has also been lost to humanity because of loss of libraries during the Mongol Invasion of Middle East and Persia. If they were available, we might have got more about the position of Illegitimate born. Since, there is no surety about that and neither Quran has declared such people to be ruled out of heaven, we should expect goodness from Allah (عزّ وجلّ) because it is narrated that one should always have positive thoughts about Allah (عزّ وجلّ). 

 

55 minutes ago, Northwest said:

But the illegitimate offspring are effectively “burdened,” if one may use that term, with a relatively low position in society and the stigma of social origin. The fact that an illegitimate person cannot hold a lot of senior positions also does suggest that something more than mere honour and shame might be at work, i.e., the possibility that he may be “burdened” with a negative spiritual inheritance as well—irrespective of his thoughts and deeds so far in his life.

3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

I would call it difference of perspective rather than considering it a burden. Some people see it different than others. What about the women who are disallowed to do certain jobs, some may say that it is because they are weak but it is most unwise answer There are always certain positions disallowed for both men and women let alone an illegitimate born because of their certain inabilities or incapacity such as a man cannot perform the job of mother and daughter and woman a job of a father and brother because of the way both are born and raised similarly an illegitimate born should know that there is goodness for him in not obtaining certain positions because of the reason of his being born as illegitimate which may subject him to make poor choices for both community and himself. Thus, Allah (عزّ وجلّ) is trying to save him from making such poor decisions because of the poor decision making of his parents. If people say bad things to embarrass such person, then it is a weakness in community who has failed to understand the divine wisdom who sole cause is to establish an error free society than to embarrass a person for something for which he was not responsible.

1 hour ago, Northwest said:

Origin seems to have played a (much?) larger role in Islamic history than it has in modern society, however. Traditional Islamic society was very much based on class, caste, family, clan, tribe, race, and so on. Society was more sensitive to social maladies than it is today. Strictures against illegitimacy and other abnormalities were enforced accordingly, in order to better preserve inheritance, social stability, and so on.

For the first part,  the model of Islamic society which Prophet (PBUHHP) gave us was based more upon rights of people which included rights of family members and society around you. Tribes, Caste, Clan were important to the extent of identification which is mentioned in Quran. To the second part, I completely agree.

1 hour ago, Northwest said:

Being an orphan is very different from being illegitimate.

Yes, but a person who is mocked for not having a father often is because he is considered an illegitimate one by the society. In a just Muslim society, the guardian of any innocent Muslim child who has no relative is the head of state whether he is orphan or illegitimate born Muslim or even in case of a non-Muslim child it is upon government to take care of him. 

[PureExistence1]

Salaam, im just gonna throw this out there as it may help...i dont know..this is almost completely word for word of a lecture i listened to by Khalil Jaffer and it is regarding Allahs(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Adl.

 

He was talking about the Names of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and "how an objection has been raised about some of the Names because they have what you might say is a "negative" connotation to them..

 

These names include Al Qahar the Subduer, Al Jabar The Restrainer, Al Khafid The Abaser/The Humiliator/The Downgrader which is the opposite of Al Rafiq, The One Who Elevates and Honors...Al Mudhil The One Who Disgraces/ Dishoners which is the opposite of Al Mu'iz The One Who Gives Honor, etc...

 

Philosophically speaking, Paradise is a manifestation of Al Rahman, Al Rahim, Al Wadud, Al Karim, Al Jawad and so on and so forth, and hellfire is a manifestation of Al Jabbar, Al Khafid, Al Qahar, Al Mudhil and so on and so forth.

 

What is interesting here is we the Shia in particular emphasize the Justice/Adl of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). A lot of muslims, their understanding of the justice of Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is that whatever God does is just, even if what He does is perceived to be unjust by human beings, therefore, if on the day of judgment Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) decides to take all of the Prophets(عليه السلام), all the Imams (عليه السلام) and all the righteous people that He promised paradise to and puts them into the fire of hell, and takes all of the Shaytaans, and Pharaun, and Nimrud, and yazeed(LA) etc and put them into paradise, that would still be justice because God does as He wills and He cannot be questioned in what He does. 

 

So their understanding of the justice of God is that whatever God does, that is just. 

 

Our understanding from the Ahle Bayt(عليه السلام) is that if you emphasize this point, then that means that you also say that God breaks His promises because God says in the Quran that God will never break His promises, and God says he has prescribed and made it incumbent upon Himself to be Merciful, so now for Him to have the freedom to do as He pleases, also opens the potential for Him to break His promises, to lie, and to do the opposite of what He has kept in  expectation for His creation. 

 

The reason why OUR understanding of Adl is truer, is that all these Names that we might connotate and understand as "negative", they all have opposites. For example, Al Rafiq elevates, Al Hafid demotes, Al Mu'iz, the one who honors, its opposite is Al Mudhil The One Who Dishonors, however, Al Adl doesnt have Al Dhalim.... "The Just", there is no opposite to say "The Unjust"... And the fact that this name does not have an opposite shows you that it is not considerable for God. And for this reason, we Shia emphasize Adala in our usool e deen, and we emphasize that it is impossible for God to be unjust. 

Of course He can do as He pleases, but He will not, because it would go against His very essence of being God."

 

If we take the reasoning Sheikh Jaffer uses here, its impossible for Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to be unjust regardless of the situation, including being unjust to someone born illegitimately. 

 

Even as so far as the parents of illegitimate child are concerned, there are numerous parameters and variables that come into play regarding what type if justice is meted out to them.

Maybe they were young, inexperienced, uneducated non muslims, maybe it was from non consensual situation, maybe it was a number of things.

 

Having an illegitimate child does not automatically damn the parents to some horrendous suffering. It all comes down to Allahs(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and He can not be unjust.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 5/12/2020 at 5:09 AM, Gaius I. Caesar said:

Are illegitimate children are pretty much damned to grow up as a unjust and immoral group of people because of the actions of their parents? 

Salam surely no although environment of their upbringing can be more effective on them which there is more chance of becoming immoral if they will be raised in a bad environment ; but on the other hand if they will be raised in good environment so therefore they can be good people in similar fashion of legitimate children although religious rulings about their status about not becoming a Marja or not  leading prayers or  not becoming Judge won't be changed ; which it has been responded by both of "Guest" & @dragonxx

 

On 5/12/2020 at 12:33 PM, Diaz said:

I have a question, does it make it an illegitimate child if the woman got married to the father of her child before she gives birth?

Salam , no it won't make child illegitimate automatically which it needs to be proven through extensive research . 

From the perspective of Imami jurisprudence and Iranian law, a pregnant woman whose husband has died or divorced her cannot marry anyone other than her ex-husband during pregnancy and must wait until giving birth ; However, it has been seen in some cases that a woman without a husband who got pregnant through illegitimate means was married with  fornicator or a non-fornicator at the time of pregnancy; Even in some cases, the couple finds out after marriage that the woman is pregnant by someone else. The verdict of these examples is not very clear.

Quote

The question of the verdict of marrying a pregnant woman from an illegitimate relationship from the perspective of Iranian jurisprudence and law is an issue that needs to be explored until an appropriate answer is reached.

There are three views about the marriage of a pregnant adulteress: famous jurists believe that it is permissible, some jurists believe that it is not permissible, and some of them believe to make a distinction, in a way that they believe that nikah is permissible  but they do not believe that intercourse and sleeping with each other during pregnancy is permissible.

This research shows in a descriptive and analytical way that the famous evidence is incomplete and the distinction view based on the principle of innocence is flawed; Because despite the generality of the chapter of Iddah , it is not become the turn of the main stream. As a result, according to the weakness of the evidences of the first and third views, using the generality of the evidences of the obligation of Iddah and in order to preserve the marriage and lineage from mixing, marriage during pregnancy is not permissible. From the medical point of view, there is also the possibility of a pregnant woman getting pregnant again during pregnancy, which is called double pregnancy.

https://jfiqh.um.ac.ir/article_40894.html#:~:text=چکیده. از منظر فقه امامیه و حقوق ایران، زن بارداری

 

In general, the Iddah of pregnant women will be different from a non-pregnant woman. The difference is until the time of delivery According to the mentioned cases, if a woman whose iddah has finished but has not given birth should wait until the time of delivery . Also, if her delivery will be early, i.e. less than four months and ten days, she should wait until  her iddah of four months and ten days will be  completed.

https://arga-mag.com/1100985/حکم-ازدواج-با-زن-باردار#:~:text=حکم ازدواج با زن باردار: در صورتی که یک زن

Quote

Imam Khomeini writes in this regard: "Iddah of a  women whose husbands have died, if she is not pregnant, it is four months and ten days...............all conditions of marriage whether permanent or Mutah ............
And if she is pregnant, her number is the farthest time from pregnancy and the period is four months and ten days. [34]

 

Quote

5- Complete delivery is a condition for the end of Iddah
[edit]
Complete delivery, and not the removal of some parts, is the condition for the end of the Iddahd [35][36][37][38].if born children more than one ,  The birth of the first child, due to the lack of stability of the uterus and other reasons, the Iddah does not end; However, some Imami jurists, citing some hadiths, as well as some common jurists consider the first birth sufficient for a woman's definite separation from her husband, although they allow her remarriage only after childbirth. [39][40][41][42]

https://fa.wikifeqh.ir/زن_باردار

 

[Botak]

20 hours ago, Northwest said:

Even if illegitimate people were excluded from Paradise, God’s inscrutable justness would not necessarily be endangered (or vindicated).

Wait what

[Northwest]

Quote

Ad-Dajjal who will then be controlling the entire world, destroying agriculture and human generation, will call the people toward him and anyone who accepts him will be treated with favor and anyone who refuses to accept him would be killed. He will travel throughout the world, with the exception of Mecca, Medina and Bayt al-Muqaddas (Jerusalem), and all the illegitimate children from both the east and the west of the globe will rally around him.

Source

@Ashvazdanghe ^ Does the above literally refer to illegitimate birth, or is the language symbolic?

[Eddie Mecca]

@Northwest,   @Ashvazdanghe will automatically tell you in a simplistic manner that the hadith is fabricated and all Sunni books of hadith belong in the rubbage bin...the narrations are describing a time in the near or distant future when out of wedlock birthrates will be alarmingly high or even the new norm...single-parent rearing comes with a wide array of problems including: lower academic achievement, increased behavioral issues, higher risk of mental health concerns, struggles with social development, potential economic disadvantages etc....Also, in a one parent household (especially when a positive male figure is removed from the equation) the state oftentimes steps in and fills the void of father figure...so impressionable children whose minds are fashionable like putty being raised by Orwellian statism (read Dajjal)...End Times narrations are not sadistically poking fun at orphans or children raised in one parent families...but rather describing an era plagued by numerous social ills, political discord and spiritual abandonment...the narration by specifically mentioning "illegitimate children" is attempting to shine the spotlight on a bigger problem...not necessarily belittle a group of people although certain groups may indeed be blame worthy to a certain extent for a host of varying reasons...women will comprise a substantial following of Dajjal...a sizeable portion of Jews (possibly the majority...Jews who identify as 'Zionist' constitute 80% of World Jewry or higher) will be among his followers as well...each group is following Dajjal for different reasons particular to that group...perhaps he's promised to free women from the burdensome task of motherhood and being enslaved to the "patriarchy"...Zionists are obsessed with worldly dominion and earthly gains after centuries of persecution in Europe so (perhaps) Dajjal will make these possibilities available to them...not "perhaps"...it's happening before our eyes in real life 

Edited February 16 by Eddie Mecca

[Northwest]

3 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

the narration by specifically mentioning "illegitimate children" is attempting to shine the spotlight on a bigger problem

@Eddie Mecca I don’t dispute that. However, the narration specifically refers to “all” illegitimate offspring. This kind of narration seemingly hints that these people have no choice in the matter, i.e., cannot choose to purify themselves and seek an alternative path. If they had a choice, I think that not “all” of them would end up making the same decision.

3 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

not necessarily belittle a group of people although certain groups may indeed be blame worthy to a certain extent for a host of varying reasons

Are you referring to the notion that illegitimate people rejected God before being born? My problem with this is not the notion per se, but the implication that these people are predestined and cannot alter their fate in this life, which would seemingly beg the question, Why would they be born at all, if this life is to test them?

Even if this view is not supported by all Shia narrations, why do some Shia, i.e., in South Asia, seem to believe that illegitimate children cannot choose to make themselves pure in this life?

Edited February 16 by Northwest

[Ashvazdanghe]

17 hours ago, Northwest said:

Are you referring to the notion that illegitimate people rejected God before being born? My problem with this is not the notion per se, but the implication that these people are predestined and cannot alter their fate in this life, which would seemingly beg the question, Why would they be born at all, if this life is to test them?

Hi , definitely they have not rejected god before being born ; which being born has been part of their predestination but on the other hand being born whether  legitimate or illegitimate has been chioce of their parents  ; which there is a famous story which one day Imam Ali (عليه السلام) asked someone to hold his horse  for a short period in order to Imam will go to a building so then after return pays to that person  2 coins for holding his horse but after entering Imam to building that person has stolen bridle of horse & left the horse without guard so then sold the bridle for two coins so then ran away which after that Imam returned so he had to buy stolen bridle from someone else for 2 coins so then he said destiny of that person has been earning 2 coins but he has chosen to  earn it through Haram way insted of Halal way. 

17 hours ago, Northwest said:

why do some Shia, i.e., in South Asia, seem to believe that illegitimate children cannot choose to make themselves pure in this life?

This is their misunderstanding due too stereotypes in their cultural matters which maybe inherited from their culture before converting to Islam or inspring from non muslims likewise inspiring from caste system in India which according to the caste system untouchable group have been considered impure in any case even if being born legitimate .