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ZethaPonderer

Sunnis Please Explain Your Views on Ibn Taymiyyah and Muhammad ibn Abd Al Wahhab in Great Detail

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I think I'm convinced why some Sunni Muslims have such a staunch sense of hatred/malice towards the Shias and any people who differs radically from them such as Christians. It's because of "Islamic Scholars" like Ibn Taymiyyah and Muhammad ibn Abd Al Wahhab.

I have nothing positive to say about these two scholars IMHO because they are the prime suspects of causing Major Fitnahs and the cause of disunity within the Muslim Ummah that continues to persist within this Modern Era. To me that is indefensible and outright unforgivable. They are wolves in sheep's clothing. I severely doubt they followed the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). But please, those of you who are Sunnis enlighten everyone here who such people really are? And why do some Sunnis respect and love these two particular Islamic Scholars within Sunni Islam?

Please note, I'm not here to bash nor hate on Sunnis. I'm here to learn and understand based on what the topic is about. I do admit that Some Sunnis agree with these two scholars while other Sunnis don't. So if there exists a Sunni Muslim who disagrees with Ibn Taymiyyah and Muhammad ibn Abd Al Wahhab on their works and scholarship, would they be in big trouble with those Sunnis who do agree?

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In light of hanbali fiqh did you know that Ibn Taymiyyah went against the Ijmah on almost all of the major hanbali positions. Pick up Zaad ul mustaqni for example Especially for kitab al Salah, a glimpse at the sharh will show you how much of a ‘reformer’ type he was. 

as for his hatred towards the ahlul bayt (عليه السلام) that is in his books and doesn’t need elaborating. 
 

he was for use of a better word and absolute genius. If you can’t read Arabic I point you towards Hoover, and Halaq who have written extensively on his rationalism and his intellectual legacy. 

If you can read Arabic then his رد المنطقين shows his deep understanding of logic (background study of logic is maybe needed). 
  
در تعارض بين العقل والنقل is a refutation of Fakhr udin Razi’s universal axiom and there is not doubt that Razi is an amazing genius of this ummah. In essence it seems ibn taymiyyahs stance here is deeply empirical and eventually leads him to the same conclusion. Which we know is the position adopted by Tusi and hilli, in regards to reason and revelation. 
 

btw in some places in majmu al fatawa he openly says he agrees with the Shias on point X. The issue is, he is very harsh in minhaj as sunnah but allamah hilli is just as harsh in minhaj ul karamah (the part on hanafi salah always cracks me up). 
 

inwould advise you read up on him. He was a fallible human being with many many mistakes. But he for sure was an intellectual giant. Did he influence and create hate? Some of his works I would say yes could be interpreted that way.
 

***btw I disagree with most of the views of ibn taymiyyah I know how on this website and some Shia like to label people and control free thinking. **disclaimer  

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5 hours ago, UndercoverBrother said:

he is very harsh in minhaj as sunnah but allamah hilli is just as harsh in

Salam " minhaj as sunnah " is written in response of " minhaj ul karamah " so Allamah Hilli  (رضي الله عنه) responded to Ibn Taymiyyah 

Quote

Sheikh Tagh al-Din Sabki, better known as "Ibn Taymiyyah", is a fanatical Sunni and contemporary scholar with Allama Hilli, who is widely acknowledged as a corruptionist, but is said to be an infidel and an apostate. It has fallen, and Shiite and Sunni scholars have written many books in his time and later on his rejection.After Allama Hali wrote the book "Minhaj Al-Karama" in proof of Imamate, Ibn Taymiyyah, due to his stubbornness and hatred with Allama, wrote a book called "Minhaj Al-Sunnah" (in his raw imagination as a rejection of the Shiites and especially a rejection of the book of Minhaj Al-Karama).  When the book of Minhaj al-Sunnah reached to Allama, this nobleman wrote poems with all the invasions, rudeness and insults of Ibn Taymiyyah and sent them to him that the translation of the poems is as follows:
 If you knew what other people knew  , you would be friend with scientists.- But you made ignorance your way and said:-  everyone who goes against your breath is not a scientist! [19]
Ibn Hajar Asqalani, a Sunni scholar, admits: "Allama has a famous name and good moral . When Ibn Taymiyyah's book reached to him, he said, "If only Ibn Taymiyyah had known what I said, I would have  answered him." لو کان یفهم ما اقول اجبت

http://wikifeqh.ir/علامه_حلّی

 

«لو كنت تعلم كل ما علم الوری طرا لصرت صدیق كل العالم»

«لكن جهلت فقلت ان جمیع من یهوی خلاف هواك لیس بعالم»

Ibn Hajar Asqalani, a Sunni scholar, writes: Allama Hali has a well-known and good moral name. When Ibn Taymiyyah's book reached him, he said, "If Ibn Taymiyyah's had ability and  understanding of my word , I would have responded him"

https://article.tebyan.net/83408/رييس-وهابيها-هم-چيزي-نمي-فهميد-ماجراي-علامه-حلي-و-ابن-تيميّه-

 

 According to a narration, Allama met with Ibn Taymiyyah in the Holy Mosque during the Hajj. Ibn Taymiyyah had not seen Allama until that day and did not know him. When he entered into a conversation with Allameh, he was very surprised by Allameh's method of speaking and discussing , and asked him his name. Allama replied: "I am the one whom you call Ibn al-Munajas (ابن‌المنجس )

https://iqna.ir/fa/news/3612861/حکایت-جدال-بنیان‌گذار-وهابیت-با-آیت‌الله-شیعه

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Al-'Allama_al-Hilli

 

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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17 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam " minhaj as sunnah " is written in response of " minhaj ul karamah " so Allamah Hilli  (رضي الله عنه) responded to Ibn Taymiyyah 

وعليكم السلام 

apologies if I didn’t make it clear, I thought I did, but yes you are correct Minhaj ul Karamah was written first. Have you read it ever? Beautifully written for students of Arabic language to appreciate.  He does a lot of sunni bashing in the book like I mentioned the comments about hanafi salah. Which is very ironic reading back in the modern day.

anyways the point was not to defend him or offer a truth value judgement on any of his work but to simply highlight for the OP what a significant person he was for intellectual development of ideas in history. There’s a reason why he’s very well studied in western academia because he wrote on lost of different topics in detail and was one of the leading thinkers of his time. 

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4 hours ago, UndercoverBrother said:

he was for intellectual development of ideas in history. There’s a reason why he’s very well studied in western academia because he wrote on lost of different topics in detail and was one of the leading thinkers of his time. 

What was is his view of the following.  

1) Succession : Was a Successor Appointed if Yes; Who. If no Why ? 

1A) How can one achieve Rulership of Muslims- by what means/ 

2) Ghadir Khum

3) Saqifa

4) Fadaq

5) Battle of Jamal

6)Battle of Siffin

7)  Karbala

8) What is Shirk

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Read minhaj ul sunnah. I’m assuming most of those polemical shia sunni topics will be in there. I’m mainly familiar with his rational works and critiques of Greek logic etc. I have however studied minhaj ul karamah, which is a must read if u want to read ibn taymiyyahs book after. 

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On 5/27/2020 at 2:50 AM, UndercoverBrother said:

In light of hanbali fiqh did you know that Ibn Taymiyyah went against the Ijmah on almost all of the major hanbali positions. Pick up Zaad ul mustaqni for example Especially for kitab al Salah, a glimpse at the sharh will show you how much of a ‘reformer’ type he was. 

 

Salam aleykum,

for better understanding about fiqh,madhab......you can read Ibn Taymiyyah’s book "Raf’ al-Malamm ‘an al-I’immat al-A’lam" !

Edited by Maulana

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The books of nawasib should only be studied by the learned of the hawza, commoners don’t have enough Islamic knowledge to counter the arguments and thoughts presented in such works. I personally have read Minhaj as-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyah (منهاج السنة النبوية), and it hasn’t convinced me at all to leave orthodox (Shia) Islam, contrary to that, I find the arguments presented by Ibn Taymiyyah in his work to be carefully constructed but relatively easily refutable. In turn, his work was refuted in numerous scholarly and lay books. Brother Toyib Olawuyi, a well know ex-Sunni Nigerian Shi’ite polemicist, put under scrutiny Ibn Taymiyyah’s work in a series of his own books. 

Ibn Taymiyyah narrated unauthentic ahadith as authentic to push his point of view on Shia Muslims. I figured it out, for example, by reading al-Sarim al-Maslul ‘ala Shatim al-Rasul, on page 582 he narrates alleged hadith from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) that the Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) stated that whoever kills a Rafidah he will be in Jannah. In short, Ibn Taymiyyah as a source of it gives Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal without citing full chains of narrators, so it’s  impossible to trace them. But the hadith wasn’t a part of the original work of Ibn Hanbal, it was added to it by Ibn Hanbal’s son, Abdurrahman, who is well known for adding weak and fabricated narrations to his father’s work, that’s why Musnad never made it to the canonical corpus of Sunni ahadith

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On 5/27/2020 at 7:56 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam " minhaj as sunnah " is written in response of " minhaj ul karamah " so Allamah Hilli  (رضي الله عنه) responded to Ibn Taymiyyah 

 According to a narration, Allama met with Ibn Taymiyyah in the Holy Mosque during the Hajj. Ibn Taymiyyah had not seen Allama until that day and did not know him. When he entered into a conversation with Allameh, he was very surprised by Allameh's method of speaking and discussing , and asked him his name. Allama replied: "I am the one whom you call Ibn al-Munajas (ابن‌المنجس )

https://iqna.ir/fa/news/3612861/حکایت-جدال-بنیان‌گذار-وهابیت-با-آیت‌الله-شیعه

http://en.wikishia.net/view/Al-'Allama_al-Hilli

 

 

On 5/28/2020 at 11:06 AM, Rauf Murtuzov said:

Lol they are not same

I didn't said this to be rude but the author of this mistaken the persons. They lived in same area and they are in opposition to each other.

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On 5/28/2020 at 8:49 PM, UndercoverBrother said:

 I’m mainly familiar with his rational works and critiques of Greek logic etc. 

How was his logic in terms of understanding the basics

Quote

The generations of the first three centuries, then, never followed any of those sects at all. Where were those sects during those three generations, the best generations ever?

Al­Ash’ari was born in 270 A.H. and died in 320 A.H.

Ibn Hanbal was born in 164 A.H. and died in 241 A.H.

Al­Shafi’i was born in 150 A.H. and died in 204 A.H.

Malik was born in 95 A.H.1 and died in 179 A.H.

Abu Hanifah was born in 80 A.H. and died in 150 A.H.

https://www.al-islam.org/al-murajaat-abd-al-husayn-sharaf-al-din-al-musawi/letter-4#i-juristic-proofs-mandate-adherence-sect-ahl-al-bayt

Quote

sermon 4 in Nahjul-Balaghah:

Through us you received guidance in the darkness, ascending the zenith of nobility, and through us you reached the light and dissipated the gloomy night. May the ears that do not listen to the summoner be deafened."3 

He is quoted in sermon 104 of Nahjul-Balaghah saying:

"O people! Secure your light from the flame of the lamps of a preacher who follows what he preaches, and drink from a spring cleansed from impurity."

He has also said the following in sermon 108:

"We are the tree of Prophethood, the place of the Message, the ones to whom the angels make a pilgrimage, the treasures of knowledge, the springs of wisdom. Our supporter and lover awaits the mercy, while our enemy or antagonist us awaits the wrath."4

Among what he has said in this regard is sermon 143 of Nahjul-Balaghah wherein he says:

"Where are those who claimed to be deeply versed in knowledge other than our own selves?5

It is a lie and a transgression against us, for Allah has raised us high while putting them down; He bestowed upon us while depriving them, and He permitted us to enter (in the fortress of knowledge) while turning them out. Through us, guidance is achieved and blindness is removed. Surely the Imams from Quraysh have been planted in Hashim's loins. Imamate can never fit anyone else, nor can government either."

Then he stated: "But they preferred a speedy gain to a later one, forsaking a pure well to drink from an impure one," up to the end of his statement. He has also said at the conclusion of khutba (sermon) 189 of Nahjul-Balaghahh:

"Whoever among you dies on his bed knowing the rights of his Lord and knowing the rights of His Messenger and his family (Ahl Al-Bayt) dies as a martyr, and his reward will be incumbent upon Allah, and he deserves the reward of what good deeds he has intended to do: his own intention will make up for his use of his sword (in jihad)."

Also, he, peace be upon him, has said: "We are the virtuous; our descendants are the descendants of Prophets; our party is the party of Allah, the Sublime, the Glorified, while the transgressing party is the devil's; whoever equates us with our enemy is certainly not of us."6

Imam al­Mujtaba Abu Muhammad al­Hasan, the patient, master of the youths of Paradise (عليه السلام), has said the following in one of his sermons:

"Fear Allah regarding us, for we are your rulers."7

https://www.al-islam.org/al-murajaat-abd-al-husayn-sharaf-al-din-al-musawi/letter-6

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On 5/27/2020 at 2:50 AM, UndercoverBrother said:

In light of hanbali fiqh did you know that Ibn Taymiyyah went against the Ijmah on almost all of the major hanbali positions. Pick up Zaad ul mustaqni for example Especially for kitab al Salah, a glimpse at the sharh will show you how much of a ‘reformer’ type he was. 

(...)

***btw I disagree with most of the views of ibn taymiyyah I know how on this website and some Shia like to label people and control free thinking. **disclaimer  

First of all, your disclaimer is one of the most intellectually insulting things I've ever read. Why? Because it's not just this website that speaks against Ibn Taymiyyah which most of them are equally valid, but this idea that Shias WANT to control people's free thinking. Who are YOU to make such a wild accusation against Shias controlling free thinking when most Sunnis who support Wahhabism/Salaafism are no different.

No self-respecting Human Being CAN really control Free Thinking. Because it is absolutely impossible. You are entitled to live up to your opinions and experiences with pride, but that doesn't excuse DIFFERENT people to criticize your opinions and experiences which they are also ENTITLED to. Just be good and mature-minded at self-defending your arguments against such criticisms.

If you disagree with most of the views of Ibn Taymiyyah on this website then OK then, let's play your game. Let's use Quora and find intelligent users for what they have to say about Ibn Taymiyyah,

Specifically at this quote from the Quora link

Also, take a look at these websites (on top of me quoting the entire article of that website link) as well that talks about the Sunni-Wahhabi/Salaafi Islamic Terrorism and their connection to Ibn Taymiyyah with respect to his works from the likes of Minhaj Al-Sunna and Majmu Al Fatawa,

http://ijtihadnet.com/ibn-taymiyyah-founder-terrorist-groups/

http://www.terrorismanalysts.com/pt/index.php/pot/article/view/266/html

 

If there is ONE thing I can say positive and respectful about Ibn Taymiyyah is that he truly lived up to the philosophy, "The Pen is Mightier than The Sword"

Which is why as an Islamic scholar he used his intellect to spread his Nasibi views against Prophet Muhammad (SAW)'s Family [The Ahlul-Bayt]. 

Remember Muslims, this is an Islamic Scholar declared as "Sheikh ul Islam" by the Wahhabis/Salaafis who would KILL ANY MUSLIM if you disagree with his 'views' about what Islam is to him according to his work Majmu Al Fatawa as quoted on the website link ijtihad.net. No wonder why ISIS, Al-Qaeda and Boko Haram use Ibn Taymiyyah's works to justify their killings of Muslims and Non-Muslims alike.

Edited by Mahdavist
Please avoid copying large portions of text when links are available

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On 5/28/2020 at 8:49 PM, UndercoverBrother said:

Read minhaj ul sunnah. I’m assuming most of those polemical shia sunni topics will be in there. I’m mainly familiar with his rational works and critiques of Greek logic etc. I have however studied minhaj ul karamah, which is a must read if u want to read ibn taymiyyahs book after. 

Ibn Taymiaya had a big hatred towards Ahlulbayt (عليهم السلام), most of all Imam Ali (عليه السلام),

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/ibn-taimiyah/hatred-towards-ahulbayt.html

While comparing Abu Bakr with Ali bin Abi Talib (عليه السلام), Ibn Taimiyah states in Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 7 page 331:

وان ولايته الأمة خير من ولاية علي وان منفعته للمسلمين في دينهم ودنياهم اعظم من منفعة علي

“His reign is better than Ali’s reign and his benefit to Muslims in their religion and life is greater than Ali’s”

Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 8 page 230:

وعلي يقاتل ليطاع ويتصرف في النفوس والأموال فكيف يجعل هذا قتالا على الدين

“Ali fought to secure obedience and rule the people and money, so how can that be deemed as fighting for sake of religion?”

We read in Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 8 page 205:

وأما إسلام علي فهل يكون مخرجا له من الكفر على قولين

There are two opinions as to whether Ali’s conversion to Islam released him from kufr or not”

Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 4 page 137:

وعلي رضي الله عنه كان قصده أن يتزوج عليها فله في أذاها غرض

“Ali intended to marry so as to hurt her (Fatima) on purpose.”

http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/ibn-taimiyah/hatred-towards-ahulbayt.html

What's the point of reading Minhaj al Sunnah?

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