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313_Husain_Ali

Where is the infallibility of the imams stated in the quran?

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On 5/17/2020 at 12:08 PM, Cool said:

Just one simple question, can you notify us the former & later sins of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and why is that God is saying to guide the one on right path who is already mentioned as on the right path? 

Do you want to say there are contradictions in Quran?

Muhammad's past and later sins are between him and His Lord. I can only state from the Quran. 66:1 is a clear example of a transgression. The revelation of 48:2 in the timeline would decide whether the transgression in 66:1 was before of after. Not that it matters, it's irrelevant.

As for your for 2nd question. Again, you fail to think about the verses on a timeline. The Prophetic mission has a timeline from start to finish. Likewise the Quran was revealed gradually to both Muhammad and the people as per 25:32 [which we have discussed to death before].

Muhammad was first guided to the straight path himself [see 93:7, 42:52, 12:3, 6:14, 40:66], after which he then was on the straight path post submission. Same as the believers - "O you who have believed" - is after they have been guided and accepted Islam, not before.

There is no gotchya here, no contradiction. Just pointless debating on your part. Please refrain from such endeavour.

Wassalaam.

Edited by Jaane Rabb
.

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4 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Muhammad was first guided to the straight path himself [see 93:7, 42:52, 12:3, 6:14, 40:66], after which he then was on the straight path post submission. Same as the believers - "O you who have believed" - is after they have been guided and accepted Islam, not before.

Surah Al-Fath, Verse 2:
لِّيَغْفِرَ لَكَ اللَّهُ مَا تَقَدَّمَ مِن ذَنبِكَ وَمَا تَأَخَّرَ وَيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكَ وَيَهْدِيَكَ صِرَاطًا مُّسْتَقِيمًا

It is a madani sura. Conquest of makka occured in 630 AD or 8 AH. And Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) died approx. 2 years after conquest of Macca i.e., in 632 AD or 10 AH.

The above verse is saying that:

1) God will pardon his previous sins & those to follow.

2) And complete His favors upon him.

3) And guide him to right path.

Sura e Dahar (Al-Insaan, a Madani Sura) revealed well before this Sura e Fath and in that God has commanded this:

Surah Al-Insan, Verse 24:
فَاصْبِرْ لِحُكْمِ رَبِّكَ وَلَا تُطِعْ مِنْهُمْ آثِمًا أَوْ كَفُورًا

Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one.
(English - Shakir)

Al-Kahaf is a Makki Sura, and in it is this command:

Surah Al-Kahf, Verse 28:
وَاصْبِرْ نَفْسَكَ مَعَ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ رَبَّهُم بِالْغَدَاةِ وَالْعَشِيِّ يُرِيدُونَ وَجْهَهُ وَلَا تَعْدُ عَيْنَاكَ عَنْهُمْ تُرِيدُ زِينَةَ الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَلَا تُطِعْ مَنْ أَغْفَلْنَا قَلْبَهُ عَن ذِكْرِنَا وَاتَّبَعَ هَوَاهُ وَكَانَ أَمْرُهُ فُرُطًا

And withhold yourself with those who call on their Lord morning and evening desiring His goodwill, and let not your eyes pass from them, desiring the beauties of this world's life; and do not follow him whose heart We have made unmindful to Our remembrance, and he follows his low desires and his case is one in which due bounds are exceeded.
(English - Shakir)

Sura e Yasin also a Makki Sura, mentioning this:

Surah Ya Seen, Verse 4:
عَلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ

On a right way.
(English - Shakir)

Keeping all these facts in mind, how do you think that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would made obligatory obedience of his messenger who deviates from the right path often and remain transgressor throughout his life (na'uzobillah)?

And how can people follow the one who is not properly guided nor protected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

If you translate "yahdiyaka siratan mustaqeema" as keep you on right path, how can the question of deviating from right path or sinning or transgression even arise? 

Fact is that, you are continuing your دریدہ دہنی for a person whom Satan cannot misguide. Who is rightly guided & protected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and whom He sent as a teacher for teaching us the book & the wisdom & to purify us. God Himself purified him & kept away every rijs from him. Far above he is from your contaminated thinking & poor understanding of the verses of Quran.

4 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

I can only state from the Quran. 66:1 is a clear example of a transgression

It is not a transgression in any way, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has exposed him the plot of his wives and assured him that he don't really need to forsake anything made lawful for him by Allah. The verse ended at ghafoorun rahim perhaps God wanted him to forgive his wives which appeared as fitnah & enemy here (see 64:14 for God's directives to pardon & forgive wives).

Secondly, if it is considered transgression by God, He would not recommend expiation of oath but would command him to repent like He commanded the main transgressors in this chapter:

Surah At-Tahrim, Verse 4:
إِن تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا وَإِن تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ

If you both turn to Allah, then indeed your hearts are already inclined (to this); and if you back up each other against him, then surely Allah it is Who is his Guardian, and Jibreel and -the believers that do good, and the angels after that are the aiders.
(English - Shakir)

And would not mention that "He is your Protector" (wallaho mowlakum).

Surah At-Tahrim, Verse 2:
قَدْ فَرَضَ اللَّهُ لَكُمْ تَحِلَّةَ أَيْمَانِكُمْ وَاللَّهُ مَوْلَاكُمْ وَهُوَ الْعَلِيمُ الْحَكِيمُ

Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise.
(English - Shakir)

And in the end, just want to quote a decisive verse:

Surah Al-Hajj, Verse 78:
وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ مِّلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِن قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ

And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving as is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Apostle may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!
(English - Shakir)

 

 

Edited by Cool

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On 5/7/2020 at 9:03 PM, 313 Seeker said:

Like from the people for instance. There are always dangers around all of us that God protects us from. From Allah's wrath. From a stone hitting his head. From the enemies humiliating him. Etc

What about Ibn-Al Muljim then. how did he manage to kill

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8 hours ago, Cool said:

3) And guide him to right path.

Keeping all these facts in mind, how do you think that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would made obligatory obedience of his messenger who deviates from the right path often and remain transgressor throughout his life (na'uzobillah)?

And how can people follow the one who is not properly guided nor protected by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? 

If you translate "yahdiyaka siratan mustaqeema" as keep you on right path, how can the question of deviating from right path or sinning or transgression even arise?

48:2 "...and guide thee on a straight path"

Being on the straight path doesn't mean ones guidance ends. 66:1 is again sufficient proof for this. Muhammad was on the right path. Yet he made two errors; 1. He listened to his deviant wives [unless we say he didn't know they were deviants], 2. He prohibiting on himself that which Allah made lawful. So Allah corrected him and he was compelled to dissolve the oath.

The guidance has been given by Allah and it is up to everyone to follow that guidance. Part of the guidance and being on the right path is seeking the forgiveness of Allah for one's errors, which Muhammad is commanded to do several times and which I've referenced several times too, but will now quote:

[4:105-106]
Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;
and pray forgiveness of God; surely God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.

[40:55] So be thou patient; surely God's promise is true. And ask forgiveness for thy sin, and proclaim the praise of thy Lord at evening and dawn.

[47:19] Know thou therefore that there is no god but God, and ask forgiveness for thy sin, and for the believers, men and women. God knows your going to and fro, and your lodging.

And of course [48:2].

The obedience is made obligatory to "the Messenger". You'll find it mentioned about two dozen times "obey the Messenger" and not once would you find "Obey Muhammad". The role of a Messenger is to convey the message. Ultimately, that is what we are obligated to follow, the message. And so too Muhammad himself has been obligated to follow the message [6:50, 6:106, 7:203] because upon Allah, everyone relies:

[7:203] And when thou bringest them not a sign, they say, 'Why hast thou not chosen one?' Say: 'I follow only what is revealed to me from my Lord; this is clear testimony from your Lord, guidance, and mercy for a people of believers.'

Committing an error and repenting is submission to Him, long as one is Godfearing [explained further below]. Otherwise, none of us are on the right path and we're all deviants. In which case we shouldn't say "Keep us on the right path" but instead pray for infallibility since that's the only way to be on the right path. It's beyond human nature, which the Prophets themselves were; human:

[18:110] Say: 'I am only a mortal the like of you; it is revealed to me that your God is One God. So let him, who hopes for the encounter with his Lord, work righteousness, and not associate with his Lord's service anyone.

[41:6] Say: 'I am only a mortal, like you are. To me it has been revealed that your God is One God; so go straight with Him, and ask for His forgiveness; and woe to the idolaters...'

Islam taught us pure monotheism and we should stick to it. Quranically, Only Allah can be said to be perfect and flawless. Prophets are human beings and they committed errors. To claim that Prophets have not committed any errors ever, despite the Quran saying otherwise, would be ridiculous because that would elevate their status to divine. Human nature is what we as human beings can relate to. We repent for our shortcomings as did the Prophets. At the same time, the best characteristics of the Prophets are acknowledged. Whatever minor errors they committed is between them and their Lord, and which an Merciful God would have forgiven.

Quote

 

1. He sent as a teacher for teaching us the book & the wisdom & to purify us.

2. It is not a transgression in any way, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has exposed him the plot of his wives

3. if it is considered transgression by God, He would not recommend expiation of oath but would command him to repent like He commanded the main transgressors in this chapter.

4. And would not mention that "He is your Protector"

5. And in the end, just want to quote a decisive verse: Surah Al-Hajj, Verse 78

 

1. [2:151] "...We have sent among you, of yourselves, a Messenger, to recite Our signs to you and to purify you, and to teach you the Book and the Wisdom...". This is repeated in a number of verses "recites the verses and purifies you". It is the message and submission to Him that is the purifier, that which purified the Messenger and the believers. Being purified doesn't mean infallible however:

[24:21] "O believers, follow not the steps of Satan; for whosoever follows the steps of Satan, assuredly he bids to indecency and dishonour. But for God's bounty to you and His mercy not one of you would have been pure ever; but God purifies whom He will; and God is All-hearing, All-knowing."

Again, this doesn't mean that the believers that were purified became infallible. As a rule of thumb, we're told to avoid the major sins, repent for minor offences, and seek purity not through self but through being Godfearing:

[53:32] "Those who avoid the heinous sins and indecencies, save lesser offences surely thy Lord is wide in His forgiveness. Very well He knows you, when He produced you from the earth, and when you were yet unborn in your mothers' wombs; therefore hold not yourselves purified; God knows very well him who is godfearing."

Just because Allah has given leave for minor errors, doesn't mean we can intentionally commit them on a daily basis. Only the Godfearing will be purified and forgiven for their shortcomings.


2. Allah could've exposed the wives without Muhammad having to make a prohibition and oath. Just like Allah exposed the wives in 66:3 when Allah informed Muhammad.

3. Allah had already commanded Muhammad to seek forgiveness for his sins as quoted above [4:105-106, 40:55, 47:19, 48:2]. So why repeat the command? Instead He reminds Muhammad that "Allah is Forgiving and Merciful". Alas, he is required by Allah to seek expiation. If it wasn't a transgression, why not let the Prophet carry on with his oath this time should he wish to please his wives? Nay, obedience to Allah is the priority over all else. Thus the expiation required. Especially as a lesson to everyone else, lest they too start prohibiting things upon themselves to please another.

4 & 5. As your quoted verse shows, Allah is the Protector of all the Muslims. This verse is being addressed to the believers [see the prior verse]. It doesn't mean we have infallibility.

 

I think we have had a fruitful discussion brother. I hate for this to become a round of replying just for the sake of replying. There's enough here to think over. My sincere advise to you is to put your Shi'i beliefs on one side, pick up the Quran and ask it to guide you. This is true guidance. For a thorough and unbiased study, read the Shia translation (which I'm sure you have), and read other translations such as Sahih, Arberry [a non-Muslim Arabic and Islamic scholar] and see where that takes you in your journey. If you only rely on Shia sources, then already you are undertaking a biased study and living in an echo chamber.

On the other hand. If you don't care for this advise and want to continue believing what you do, you're free to do so. I, myself take The Furqaan as my guide, lest I am accused of denying the verses of the Book:

[57:19] "...But those who have disbelieved and denied Our verses - those are the companions of Hellfire"

Wassalaam.

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8 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

What about Ibn-Al Muljim then. how did he manage to kill

When your time is up, then your time is up. He who gives protection, can take it away too when He wills.

The bigger question is, how did Ali know he was going to be killed when the Quran says this:

[31:34] Surely God -- He has knowledge of the Hour; He sends down the rain; He knows what is in the wombs. No soul knows what it shall earn tomorrow, and no soul knows in what land it shall die. Surely God is All-knowing, All-aware.

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8 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

When your time is up, then your time is up. He who gives protection, can take it away too when He wills.

The bigger question is, how did Ali know he was going to be killed when the Quran says this:

[31:34] Surely God -- He has knowledge of the Hour; He sends down the rain; He knows what is in the wombs. No soul knows what it shall earn tomorrow, and no soul knows in what land it shall die. Surely God is All-knowing, All-aware.

brother above implied Masoom means protected from physical damge.
lol Did Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) not get hurt at taif?

I'm sorry but that opinion was ridiculous.
They were purified and thats what should be considered when defining Ismah for Ahlebait (عليه السلام) not the verses that mention protection from people lol

Edited by Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi

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On 5/19/2020 at 7:16 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

Being on the straight path doesn't mean ones guidance ends. 66:1 is again sufficient proof for this. Muhammad was on the right path. Yet he made two errors; 1. He listened to his deviant wives [unless we say he didn't know they were deviants], 2. He prohibiting on himself that which Allah made lawful. So Allah corrected him and he was compelled to dissolve the oath.

Being on right path do mean no deviation by doing sins & by committing errors.

"Inna Rabbi ala siratin Mustaqeem".

You think them (66:1) as errors but not the God as I have explained earlier. The plot of wives was of that nature where they complained of unpleasant smell from his mouth and stressed onto him that this must be the smell of "maghafir" and that the bees must have collected the honey from such tree. Being a husband, there is no problem in abstaining from things which wives were complaining of. But Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was not a mere husband and human being, that is what the wives forgot. So reminding them his reality is only possible through revelation and that is exactly what has been done by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), He appeared into the picture by sending the revelation, commanding the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that he don't really need to forsake anything made lawful for him by Allah, even if the wives complaint. Not only this command revealed but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) informed him the whole plot of his wives. When Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) informed them they asked surprisingly "man anba'aka hatha" (who told you this?). And this statement of their, is an evidence that what they thought about their husband.

So Alhamdulillah, we have a clear picture with us and we dont need your deviated interpretation of the verses of Quran.

On 5/19/2020 at 7:16 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

The guidance has been given by Allah and it is up to everyone to follow that guidance. Part of the guidance and being on the right path is seeking the forgiveness of Allah for one's errors, which Muhammad is commanded to do several times

 

مَن يَهْدِ اللّهُ فَهُوَ الْمُهْتَدِي

وَمَن يَهْدِ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِن مُّضِلٍّ 

The one whom Allah guides and make him a guide as well, there is none which can misguide him. This is the divine protection which we call the "ismah". And for that very reason, the divinly appointed teacher/guide, the one who was sent to purify our souls, is neither gone astray nor does he erred throughout his life. And in the end, he gave us the "thaqalayn" and commanded us to hold onto these two so that we may not go astray.

How can you know the status of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his istaghfar!! You want to view him to be proud on his piousness?

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: The best way of seeking forgiveness is through regret and avoidance (of sins).

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said: Seeking forgiveness but continue to sin, is a new sin.

And you, here telling us that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) continue to sin throughout his life and because of that reason he asked forgiveness (na'uzobillah). You should repent & ask forgiveness for yourself on that.

On 5/19/2020 at 7:16 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

The obedience is made obligatory to "the Messenger". You'll find it mentioned about two dozen times "obey the Messenger" and not once would you find "Obey Muhammad".

lol,

And who is Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

Wama Muhammadun illa Rasool....

On 5/19/2020 at 7:16 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

Ultimately, that is what we are obligated to follow, the message. And so too Muhammad himself has been obligated to follow the message [6:50, 6:106, 7:203] because upon Allah, everyone relies:

lol,

This is the central idea of what Umar said "Hasbona kitaballah".

Your religion as well as you emaan remains incomplete and neither God would love you if you don't follow the messenger:

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

3:31 

On 5/19/2020 at 7:16 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

Prophets are human beings and they committed errors. To claim that Prophets have not committed any errors ever, despite the Quran saying otherwise, would be ridiculous because that would elevate their status to divine.

To believe that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has never protected His chosen ones from Iblis is tantamount to denying the clear verses of Quran which says that Satan has no power over them and he cannot misguide them. So I am sorry to say this belief of yours is a kufr.

On 5/19/2020 at 7:16 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

Human nature is what we as human beings can relate to.

It is that very human nature which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned as:

فِطْرَةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا

And there certainly are some people, chosen ones of God, who have maintained that fitrah throughout their lives and remained pure & clean by the divine grace & mercy. They remained sinless like a newborn, throughout their lives:

Surah Ya Seen, Verse 4:
عَلَىٰ صِرَاطٍ مُّسْتَقِيمٍ

On a right way.
(English - Shakir)

On 5/19/2020 at 7:16 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

We repent for our shortcomings as did the Prophets.

Not necessarily. A prophet can repent & ask forgiveness without committing sin or error. Repentance and asking forgiveness is not conditional with doing sins/errors. One can repent and ask forgiveness even if he has not committed any sin/error.

On 5/19/2020 at 7:16 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

My sincere advise to you is to put your Shi'i beliefs on one side, pick up the Quran and ask it to guide you. This is true guidance. For a thorough and unbiased study, read the Shia translation (which I'm sure you have), and read other translations such as Sahih, Arberry [a non-Muslim Arabic and Islamic scholar] and see where that takes you in your journey. If you only rely on Shia sources, then already you are undertaking a biased study and living in an echo chamber.

Well thank you for your advise. I cannot abandon anyone from thaqalayn. You are free to assume to have a misguided guide who received perfect guidance. For me, a perfect message needs to be delivered through a perfect human being who neither go astray nor he err.

On 5/19/2020 at 7:16 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

57:19] "...But those who have disbelieved and denied Our verses - those are the companions of Hellfire"

Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 16:
أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ اشْتَرَوُا الضَّلَالَةَ بِالْهُدَىٰ فَمَا رَبِحَت تِّجَارَتُهُمْ وَمَا كَانُوا مُهْتَدِينَ

These are they who buy error for the right direction, so their bargain shall bring no gain, nor are they the followers of the right direction.
(English - Shakir)

 

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On 5/16/2020 at 8:05 AM, Jaane Rabb said:

Salaam,

There is no infallibility of Prophets in the Quran. Only Allah is infallible, free from every defect, for He never sleeps [2:255], never errs and never forgets [20:52].

There's loads of verses that prove the fallibility of Prophets. Below, I will cite just one verse and a supporting verse to prove Prophet Muhammad had committed a transgression and was publically reprimanded by Allah:
 

[66:1] O Prophet, why forbiddest thou what God has made lawful to thee, seeking the good pleasure of thy wives? And God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.

More translations here for the thorough: http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=66&verse=1
 

[5:87] O believers, forbid not such good things as God has permitted you; and transgress not; God loves not transgressors.

More translations: http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=87


Clearly, prohibiting that which Allah has made lawful is a transgression, which no one has authority to do. Not even a Prophet of God.

Naturally, I expect this to be rejected. Here is Shia tafsir regarding this and the atonement Muhammad made for such an action. See pages 3 and 4:

https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/TafseerHub-e-Ali/CH66_SuraAlTahreem_Verses1-12.pdf

Wassalaam

Clearly, prohibiting that which Allah has made lawful from "tayyibat" (good things) is a transgression. Verse 66.1 does not have the word "tayyibat" as is in the verse 5:87

atonement for breaking the oath is lawful.(66:2). and there is no harm to the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in that which Allah has made lawful to him. 33:38

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On 5/22/2020 at 7:27 AM, elite said:

Clearly, prohibiting that which Allah has made lawful from "tayyibat" (good things) is a transgression. Verse 66.1 does not have the word "tayyibat" as is in the verse 5:87

atonement for breaking the oath is lawful.(66:2). and there is no harm to the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in that which Allah has made lawful to him. 33:38

Already answered this in comments above.

Allah had already defined prohibiting the lawful as a transgression in 5:87 so He didn't need to repeat in 66:1, but just reminded "...And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful".

Likewise, He had already shown how to break an oath in 5:89 so didn't need to repeat that either in 66:2, but just reminded that the procedure had already been detailed.

66:1 ends with "...And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful".

Same as what Allah says in:

[4:105-106]
Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;
and pray forgiveness of God; surely God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.

So when we know prohibiting the lawful is a transgression and Allah has mentioned that He is All Forgiving. Then it's pretty clear. But when you want to try and believe in infallibility, then you will try all that you can to make these verses fit into that view.

As for me, I just want the Truth no matter what it is. The Quran is the Truth and that's the only infallible source that we have.

Edited by Jaane Rabb

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44 minutes ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Allah had already defined prohibiting the lawful as a transgression in 5:87 so He didn't need to repeat in 66:1, but just reminded "...And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful".

Likewise, He had already shown how to break an oath in 5:89 so didn't need to repeat that either in 66:2, but just reminded that the procedure had already been detailed.

66:1 ends with "...And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful".

So when we know prohibiting the lawful is a transgression and Allah has mentioned that He is All Forgiving. Then it's pretty clear. But when you want to try and believe in infallibility, then you will try all that you can to make these verses fit into that view.

I think only a partial view has been taken here we should look the verses of quran in more detail, like given below:

The statement  of 66: 1 is taken but the statement that detail about  the event in verse 66:2 has been neglected which should be looked into:

Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise. (66:2)

When it is sanctioned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) there is no acceptance of any action as transgression. 

wasalam

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16 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

I think only a partial view has been taken here we should look the verses of quran in more detail, like given below:

The statement  of 66: 1 is taken but the statement that detail about  the event in verse 66:2 has been neglected which should be looked into

There is no problem with breaking an oath as Allah has given permission to do so. What you need to ponder over is why Muhammad was made to break his oath. Why was he not allowed to keep it to please his wives?

It's because the prohibition he made was a transgression. Because obedience to Allah is priority, and not obedience to wives. Because it would have set a grievous example; Tomorrow people would start prohibiting x y z for x y z person and they would give the example of Muhammad as justification, which is a problem because Allah has said you cannot prohibit what He has made lawful.

It really is such a simple and clear event. Allah had declared that prohibiting the lawful is a transgression. The Prophet did that, thus transgressed. He is not above the lawmaker, thus the law applies to him as well hence why he was reprimanded and made to break the oath. If that law didn't apply to him then why reprimand and why make him beak the oath. If he wanted to please the wives why not let him. Nay, because the premise was bad. The oath he took wasn't within the bounds set by Allah. So Muhammad had to backtrack. He had to turn back (tawba) as was commanded.

Clear as day for me.

Wassalaam

Edited by Jaane Rabb

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12 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

There is no problem with breaking an oath as Allah has given permission to do so. 

It really is such a simple and clear event. Allah had declared that prohibiting the lawful is a transgression.

The first part of your statement  is correct. The matter is crystal clear with the permission by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as mentioned in the verse: 

Allah indeed has sanctioned for you the expiation of your oaths and Allah is your Protector, and He is the Knowing the Wise. (66:2)

When it is sanctioned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) there is no acceptance of any action as transgression, unless the verse quoted above is taken out of the Quran or it is considered rejected. 

As far as some misquoted word called here reprimand is concerned  the matter was about the wives of the prophet and the subsequent verses makes it clear that wives of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) have been reprimanded and no one else:

إِن تَتُوبَا إِلَى اللَّهِ فَقَدْ صَغَتْ قُلُوبُكُمَا وَإِن تَظَاهَرَا عَلَيْهِ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ مَوْلَاهُ وَجِبْرِيلُ وَصَالِحُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَعْدَ ذَٰلِكَ ظَهِيرٌ

If you both turn to Allah, then indeed your hearts are already inclined (to this); and if you back up each other against him, then surely Allah it is Who is his Guardian, and Jibreel and -the believers that do good, and the angels after that are the aiders.

The reprimand about the wives continues in the following verses:

عَسَىٰ رَبُّهُ إِن طَلَّقَكُنَّ أَن يُبْدِلَهُ أَزْوَاجًا خَيْرًا مِّنكُنَّ مُسْلِمَاتٍ مُّؤْمِنَاتٍ قَانِتَاتٍ تَائِبَاتٍ عَابِدَاتٍ سَائِحَاتٍ ثَيِّبَاتٍ وَأَبْكَارًا

[Shakir]:  Maybe, his Lord, if he divorce you, will give him in your place wives better than you, submissive, faithful, obedient, penitent, adorers, fasters, widows and virgins. (66:5)

Then verse mentions two examples of the wives who were disbelievers but they were wives of saleh momineen. These include wife of Lut (عليه السلام). and the wife of Nuh (عليه السلام).

The verses also  then mention two examples of the women  one the wife of Firon  (who himself was disbeliever) and the Maraym AS. 

The following verses are also presented in support of my view:

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ قُل لِّأَزْوَاجِكَ إِن كُنتُنَّ تُرِدْنَ الْحَيَاةَ الدُّنْيَا وَزِينَتَهَا فَتَعَالَيْنَ أُمَتِّعْكُنَّ وَأُسَرِّحْكُنَّ سَرَاحًا جَمِيلًا

O Prophet! say to your wives: If you desire this world's life and its adornment, then come, I will give you a provision and allow you to depart a goodly departing (33:28)

يَا نِسَاءَ النَّبِيِّ مَن يَأْتِ مِنكُنَّ بِفَاحِشَةٍ مُّبَيِّنَةٍ يُضَاعَفْ لَهَا الْعَذَابُ ضِعْفَيْنِ ۚ وَكَانَ ذَٰلِكَ عَلَى اللَّهِ يَسِيرًا

O wives of the prophet! whoever of you commits an open indecency, the punishment shall be increased to her doubly; and this is easy to Allah. (33:30)

وَمَن يَقْنُتْ مِنكُنَّ لِلَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَتَعْمَلْ صَالِحًا نُّؤْتِهَا أَجْرَهَا مَرَّتَيْنِ وَأَعْتَدْنَا لَهَا رِزْقًا كَرِيمًا

And whoever of you is obedient to Allah and His Messenger and does good, We will give to her her reward doubly, and We have prepared for her an honorable sustenance.(33:31)

وَقَرْنَ فِي بُيُوتِكُنَّ وَلَا تَبَرَّجْنَ تَبَرُّجَ الْجَاهِلِيَّةِ الْأُولَىٰ ۖ وَأَقِمْنَ الصَّلَاةَ وَآتِينَ الزَّكَاةَ وَأَطِعْنَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ

And stay in your houses and do not display your finery like the displaying of the ignorance of yore; and keep up prayer, and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. (33:33)

Now the following verses describe about the status of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as mentioned in the verses of Quran:

وَإِذْ يَقُولُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ وَالَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ مَّا وَعَدَنَا اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ إِلَّا غُرُورًا

And when the hypocrites and those in whose hearts was a disease began to say: Allah and His Messenger did not promise us (victory) but only to deceive. (33:12)

لَّقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much. (33:21)

وَلَمَّا رَأَى الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الْأَحْزَابَ قَالُوا هَٰذَا مَا وَعَدَنَا اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَصَدَقَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ ۚ وَمَا زَادَهُمْ إِلَّا إِيمَانًا وَتَسْلِيمًا

And when the believers saw the allies, they said: This is what Allah and His Messenger promised us, and Allah and His Messenger spoke the truth; and it only increased them in faith and submission. (33:22)

وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ ۗ وَمَن يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُّبِينًا

And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying. (33:36)

إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ۚ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا

Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation. (33:56)

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُؤْذُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لَعَنَهُمُ اللَّهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا مُّهِينًا

Surely (as for) those who speak evil things of Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and the here after, and He has prepared for them a chastisement bringing disgrace. (33:57)

To conclude my words about the prophet s,aw i here quote the following verses:

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL (3:31)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers. (3:32)

wasalam

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On 5/24/2020 at 8:19 PM, Jaane Rabb said:

Already answered this in comments above.

Allah had already defined prohibiting the lawful as a transgression in 5:87 so He didn't need to repeat in 66:1, but just reminded "...And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful".

Likewise, He had already shown how to break an oath in 5:89 so didn't need to repeat that either in 66:2, but just reminded that the procedure had already been detailed.

66:1 ends with "...And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful".

Same as what Allah says in:

[4:105-106]
Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;
and pray forgiveness of God; surely God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.

So when we know prohibiting the lawful is a transgression and Allah has mentioned that He is All Forgiving. Then it's pretty clear. But when you want to try and believe in infallibility, then you will try all that you can to make these verses fit into that view.

As for me, I just want the Truth no matter what it is. The Quran is the Truth and that's the only infallible source that we have.

"He didn't need to repeat" is not a valid argument as in the quran at four places (2:168,5:88,8:69,16:114) lawful(halal) and good (tayyab) used together and it is clear that prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had not forbidden from the good but only from  the lawful upon himself.

It was better for the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) not to forbid on himself what was lawful to him and Allah guided the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) towards the better option. it is like

And if they remained patient till you come out to them it would have been better for them. And Allah is forgiving and merciful.49:5 

and if it was transgression (na'uzobillah) prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) must required to seek forgiveness for that.

And whoever does evil or acts unjustly to his soul, then asks forgiveness of Allah, he shall find Allah forgiving,merciful. 4:110

Had prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) asked for the  forgiveness after the revealation of the verse 66:1?

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16 hours ago, elite said:

"He didn't need to repeat" is not a valid argument as in the quran at four places (2:168,5:88,8:69,16:114) lawful(halal) and good (tayyab) used together and it is clear that prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had not forbidden from the good but only from  the lawful upon himself.It was better for the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) not to forbid on himself what was lawful to him and Allah guided the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) towards the better option.

Is that a serious argument? The good and the lawful aren't mutually exclusive [as you yourself have observed]:

[7:157] those who follow the Messenger, 'the Prophet of the common folk, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, bidding them to honour, and forbidding them dishonour, making lawful for them the good things and making unlawful for them the corrupt things, and relieving them of their loads, and the fetters that were upon them. Those who believe in him and succour him and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him -- they are the prosperers.'

So claiming Muhammad had prohibited something that was lawful, but not good is preposterous!

What's interesting is the sequence of events in 66:1-2 fit the sequence in 5:87-89. i.e. Prohibiting the lawful. Expiation of oath. Worth pondering.

Quote

Had prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) asked for the  forgiveness after the revealation of the verse 66:1?

Not directly in that verse, but in many other verses Muhammad is told to seek forgiveness for sins (including future ones):

[4:105-106]
Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;
and pray forgiveness of God; surely God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.

[40:55] So be thou patient; surely God's promise is true. And ask forgiveness for thy sin, and proclaim the praise of thy Lord at evening and dawn.

[47:19] Know thou therefore that there is no god but God, and ask forgiveness for thy sin, and for the believers, men and women. God knows your going to and fro, and your lodging.

[48:2] that God may forgive thee thy former and thy latter sins, and complete His blessing upon thee, and guide thee on a straight path,

The above alone is enough to put a serious question mark on infallibility. It can't get any clearer than that. As such this will seriously be my last contribution to this thread and I won't be responding to anymore replies.

Wasalaam

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6 hours ago, Jaane Rabb said:

Is that a serious argument? The good and the lawful aren't mutually exclusive [as you yourself have observed]:

[7:157] those who follow the Messenger, 'the Prophet of the common folk, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, bidding them to honour, and forbidding them dishonour, making lawful for them the good things and making unlawful for them the corrupt things, and relieving them of their loads, and the fetters that were upon them. Those who believe in him and succour him and help him, and follow the light that has been sent down with him -- they are the prosperers.'

So claiming Muhammad had prohibited something that was lawful, but not good is preposterous!

What's interesting is the sequence of events in 66:1-2 fit the sequence in 5:87-89. i.e. Prohibiting the lawful. Expiation of oath. Worth pondering.

Following verse is directed to the Bani Israel.

Eat from the good foods (Tayyibat) that we have given you for sustenance and do not transgress therein, lest My anger should descend upon you. And he upon whom My anger descends has certainly lost. 20:81

Similar verse is directed to the believers

O you who believe! do not forbid (yourselves) the good foods(tayyibat) which Allah has made lawful for you and do not exceed the limits; surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.5:87

And eat of the lawful and good foods(tayyibat) that Allah has given you, and be careful of (your duty to) Allah, in Whom you believe.5:88

Most of the places in the quran "tayyibat" is used for the food.

O men!  eat the lawful and good things(tayyibat) out of what is in the earth, and do not follow the footsteps of the Shaitan; surely he is your open enemy.2:168

Lawful for you are the animals of grazing livestock except for that which is recited to you [in this Qur'an] (5:1)

They ask you, what has been made lawful for them. Say, "Lawful for you are [all] good foods(tayyibat) and [game caught by] what you have trained of hunting animals which you train as Allah has taught you. So eat of what they catch for you, and mention the name of Allah upon it, and fear Allah." Indeed, Allah is swift in account.5:4

This day [all] good foods (tayyibat) have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them 5:5

O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.66:1

Lawful from the good foods (tayyibat) is not mentioned in the verse 66:1 that means prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had not forbidden from the "tayyibat"  then it is sure that there is no match between the verse 5:87 & 66:1

Verse 5:87 (read with 5:88) regarding the good foods are the  verses of  Surah Maidah (Table spread with food)

Now what was lawful for the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) were the slave girls also.

those (slaves) whom your right hand possesses whom Allah has given to you, 33:50

so you can not blame the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) of the transgression(na’uzobillah) based on the verse 5:87.

Quote

Not directly in that verse, but in many other verses Muhammad is told to seek forgiveness for sins (including future ones):

[4:105-106]
Surely We have sent down to thee the Book with the truth, so that thou mayest judge between the people by that God has shown thee. So be not an advocate for the traitors;
and pray forgiveness of God; surely God is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.

[40:55] So be thou patient; surely God's promise is true. And ask forgiveness for thy sin, and proclaim the praise of thy Lord at evening and dawn.

[47:19] Know thou therefore that there is no god but God, and ask forgiveness for thy sin, and for the believers, men and women. God knows your going to and fro, and your lodging.

[48:2] that God may forgive thee thy former and thy latter sins, and complete His blessing upon thee, and guide thee on a straight path,

The above alone is enough to put a serious question mark on infallibility. It can't get any clearer than that. As such this will seriously be my last contribution to this thread and I won't be responding to anymore replies.

Wasalaam

Istigar after wrong doing

And those who when they commit an indecency or do injustice to their souls remember Allah and ask forgiveness for their faults; and who forgives the faults but Allah. And (who) do not knowingly persist in what they have done. (As for) these their reward is forgiveness from their Lord, and gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them, and excellent is the reward of the labourers" 3:135-136

 Remembrance  Allah Subhanahu wa ta’ala  by ( tasbih, hamd & istigfar)

And in the morning they asked forgiveness. 51:18

Then exalt [Him] with praise of your Lord and ask forgiveness of Him. Indeed, He is ever Accepting of repentance.110:3

Therefore be patient; surely the promise of Allah is true; and ask protection for your fault and sing the praise of your Lord in the evening and the morning. (shakir 40:55)

 Remembrance of Allah protects the pious men from  even the evil thoughts so they are far from putting evil in to the practice.

Those who fear Allah, when a thought of evil from Satan assaults them, bring Allah to remembrance, when lo! they see (aright)! (Yusuf ali 7:201)

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13 hours ago, elite said:

O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.66:1

so you can not blame the prophet(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) of the transgression(na’uzobillah) based on the verse 5:87.

Those who fear Allah, when a thought of evil from Satan assaults them, bring Allah to remembrance, when lo! they see (aright)! (Yusuf ali 7:201)

 

On 5/25/2020 at 9:06 AM, Muslim2010 said:

The following verses are also presented in support of my view:

Now the following verses describe about the status of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as mentioned in the verses of Quran:

وَإِذْ يَقُولُ الْمُنَافِقُونَ وَالَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِم مَّرَضٌ مَّا وَعَدَنَا اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ إِلَّا غُرُورًا

And when the hypocrites and those in whose hearts was a disease began to say: Allah and His Messenger did not promise us (victory) but only to deceive. (33:12)

لَّقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيرًا

Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much. (33:21)

وَلَمَّا رَأَى الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الْأَحْزَابَ قَالُوا هَٰذَا مَا وَعَدَنَا اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَصَدَقَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ ۚ وَمَا زَادَهُمْ إِلَّا إِيمَانًا وَتَسْلِيمًا

And when the believers saw the allies, they said: This is what Allah and His Messenger promised us, and Allah and His Messenger spoke the truth; and it only increased them in faith and submission. (33:22)

وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ وَلَا مُؤْمِنَةٍ إِذَا قَضَى اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ أَمْرًا أَن يَكُونَ لَهُمُ الْخِيَرَةُ مِنْ أَمْرِهِمْ ۗ وَمَن يَعْصِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ ضَلَالًا مُّبِينًا

And it behoves not a believing man and a believing woman that they should have any choice in their matter when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he surely strays off a manifest straying. (33:36)

إِنَّ اللَّهَ وَمَلَائِكَتَهُ يُصَلُّونَ عَلَى النَّبِيِّ ۚ يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا صَلُّوا عَلَيْهِ وَسَلِّمُوا تَسْلِيمًا

Surely Allah and His angels bless the Prophet; O you who believe! call for (Divine) blessings on him and salute him with a (becoming) salutation. (33:56)

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُؤْذُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لَعَنَهُمُ اللَّهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا مُّهِينًا

Surely (as for) those who speak evil things of Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and the here after, and He has prepared for them a chastisement bringing disgrace. (33:57)

To conclude my words about the prophet s,aw i here quote the following verses:

قُلْ إِن كُنتُمْ تُحِبُّونَ اللَّهَ فَاتَّبِعُونِي يُحْبِبْكُمُ اللَّهُ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ ۗ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL (3:31)

قُلْ أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ ۖ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يُحِبُّ الْكَافِرِينَ

Say: Obey Allah and the Messenger; but if they turn back, then surely Allah does not love the unbelievers. (3:32)

The concluding words:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُؤْذُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ لَعَنَهُمُ اللَّهُ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَالْآخِرَةِ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ عَذَابًا مُّهِينًا

Surely (as for) those who speak evil things of Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in this world and the here after, and He has prepared for them a chastisement bringing disgrace. (33:57)

wasalam

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