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15 hours ago, GD41586 said:

I don't want to speak for @notme but I don't think he means that the Bible is a bad library of books, but that actually sitting down and reading what they really say has brought him to Islam. That's been my experience and that of countless others no doubt. We actually believe that Isa (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  [Jesus] is going to return on the day of judgment with the last Imam.

We aren't insulting the bible. Far from it. We're just those who have read the bible without any presuppositions.

I hear ya!  However, there are many people going to opposite way, leaving other faiths.  Many believers in Christ I know don't believe because they had some presuppositions.  In fact, many I know either were raised as a non-Christian or ran away from their faith only to come back, this time truly understanding scripture.  There are many that call themselves Christians, the Way, follower of Christ (the name is not as important as who they believe in) who, like you've seen, only believe in God because mom or dad raised them like this.  What I have observed many times is that those who fall under this category either have experiences where their faith is shaken and continue to believe as a dedicated Christian, turn away from the faith and never come back (I guess only time will tell), or backslide for a time and return.  God says that he disciplines his children so if one is a child of God, there will be tests of faith, hard times, etc. that God uses to test the faith of a person.  So, I believe that there are some who come to the Bible with presuppositions, but that alone does not ensure one is a true believer and I believe that at some point they will need to think through their faith and test themselves to see if they truly believe, as the apostle Paul tells believers to test themselves to see if they're legit.   In my experience I have seen the exhortation for Christians to examine their faith and know why they believe what they believe.  

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20 hours ago, notme said:

Was/is Jesus a Christian? 

20 hours ago, notme said:

Was/is Jesus a Christian? 

Notme, 

Sorry almost missed this one:blush:

No, he wasn't a Christian.  I'm sure you already know this, but the term Christian didn't appear until Acts 11.  Before that the church was called "The Way."  Jesus didn't proclaim a name to call ourselves but those names came about from tradition or by what others called believers in Christ. It was never meant to be a religion or sect, but a relationship with the true God.  We believe Jesus to be Yahweh, but no, I wouldn't call him a Christian.  I don't even have to call myself a Christian.  The Bible has titles for our new identity in Christ such as Child of God, Free, Redeemed, Chosen, Born Again, among others.  

Why do you ask?

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8 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

 

Whew, that's a lot!  You didn't just write this for the discussion in the last few days did you??

I think for the sake of not having a debate (we both know where those go), I will make my comment brief.  If you would like to continue chatting about this through another means I would be up to that also, but a reply of reply of this length may lead to never ending circles of discussions.  By the way, I appreciate your research and thoroughness, although I have to disagree with you.

Your paper presents an opinion and a viewpoint, however, would not hold up in many circles.  These arguments have been refuted time and time again but I do understand that your sources are not ones I would agree with and vice versa, especially when it comes interpreting the meaning of important scriptures.  Like you, I have read and listened to the other side's argument, but they have not convinced me.  Biblical scholarship is very very good and the sources and original languages they contain are ancient and numerous.  

One example is John 10:34-35.  Jesus, as he does often, is quoting the Old Testament, condemning and judging the teachers for their incorrect judgement of him.  

Genesis 1 and 3 have examples of God speaking in the plural form.  

In John, Jesus is also called God by Thomas, and the Alpha, Omega, beginning and end in Revelation.  Isaiah 9 calls Jesus "Mighty God, Everlasting Father." He also calles himself "I am" (Yahweh) multiple times in the same book.  

But again, you have the choice to believe the scholars and interpretations that you adhere to.  

I guess I would challenge all to see both sides of the coin and also observe the plethora of careful scholarship, and transliteration of the Old and New Testaments before coming to a conclusion.  (In no way am I assuming that you did not do this:)

In my walk with Christ I have also considered what other critics are saying but my interaction with the God of the Bible and scripture just makes it that more true to me, even apart from ever knowing about the great scholarship available.  

Hope you understand my reasoning for not wanting to go longer.  I appreciate you taking the time to post this.  God bless you!!

Edited by notme
Please no long quotes!

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46 minutes ago, tdawg626 said:

Notme, 

In my experience I have been amazed at how consistent the Bible actually has been, considering the amount of authors that wrote and the extensive time period over which it was written.  

-You are right about both of your first two points.  The Bible does say this.  However, you are only responsible for your own sins.  There are sins that are passed down from generation to generation because of tendencies and things taught to us by those who committed those sins.  These sinful behavior may be passed down, however, with God these tendencies can be stopped.  No one in the Bible is judged for their sin (negatively in the afterlife) for the sins of their ancestors.  

-I am very familiar with the Old Testament.  God did tell them to kill and in some cases drive out people, yes.  God also wiped out nearly the whole earth in the Torah in Genesis 6 with the flood.  Everyone has sinned against God and fallen short of his glory, so he actually could have destroyed everyone on earth if he wanted to.  He is holy and just.  But in his mercy he did not.  There's a story behind the whole conquest of this last and in part it has to do with God choosing a people (the Jews) and wiping out people who for a long time were notorious sinners, idolaters, and who committed child sacrifices.  What they did is found in the Old Testament.  He also did not want his people to be influenced by their evil ways as he was preparing a holy people, who would love God and follow him.  Obviously we both know that the Jews didn't always behave very well and were punished and discipline because of it.  Anyway, God has all the right to judge the earth because no one is innocent before his.  There are times when we see God giving places a chance to repent such as Nineveh and Sodom and Gomorrah, all obviously non-Israelite cities.  But when I read the whole story and understand what God was doing through the whole thing, yes, I am amazed with a holy fear but also at his kindness, mercy, love, etc.  

Like I said, God's people didn't always obey him either.  The Bible is a raw account of the good, bad and ugly.  People acted without God's permission sometimes and we usually see the results of that.  I don't question that you believe the Bible has some truth.  But if a book has some truth and it's not all truth, then God did not preserve his word very well and therefore none of it can be trusted.  Otherwise, what person could sift through it and declare this or that to be true?  In my experience and study, I have found the Bible to be compellingly accurate and scholarship has been really on point.  

I hope you don't take any of my answers to be written in anger, frustration or in any way negative.  I value this discussion and your comments as well.  And I hope you are doing well too!

 

 

Jeremiah 8:8 read it in Hebrew, shows  that alterations have taken place but the Law has been persevered by God the Tanakh stories a portion of it has been corrupted. 

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8 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

the reality is still that we've all "sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans).  So, they were kicked out and could never go back.  They were not given a second chance to remain sinless but rather a flaming sword and angels are put in the entrance to block them from returning.  Everything goes downhill from there.  God could have given them some rules to follow at this point, but he didn't.  We see God's nature here in that he cannot have fellowship with sinners.  So, Jesus' death on the cross is an act of mercy and love,

Hi we have ability for doing sin but also we have will to do not sin & can repent from our sins & become sinless like newborn child , that according to holy Quran it was our destiny was to live on earth that angles only saw dark side of our future for sins & shedding bloods on earth & disobeying humans against God/ Allah but Allah/God knew something from us that even arch Angles didn't knew & Satan / Shaitan became jealous because his race on earth just showed that dark side but they couldn't  reach to level of ruler of Allah/God on earth but humans can reach to this status & place that until end time & final trumpet of death we have both ability of doing sin then becoming  lower than animals & repenting then reaching to a place higher than angles but lowe than God/ Allah but nobody even prophets can sacrifice themselves for our sins but they can lead us to highest place over angles but lower than God/ Allah .

Edited by Ashvazdanghe

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7 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Whew, that's a lot!  You didn't just write this for the discussion in the last few days did you??

I think for the sake of not having a debate (we both know where those go), I will make my comment brief.  If you would like to continue chatting about this through another means I would be up to that also, but a reply of reply of this length may lead to never ending circles of discussions.  By the way, I appreciate your research and thoroughness, although I have to disagree with you.

Your paper presents an opinion and a viewpoint, however, would not hold up in many circles.  These arguments have been refuted time and time again but I do understand that your sources are not ones I would agree with and vice versa, especially when it comes interpreting the meaning of important scriptures.  Like you, I have read and listened to the other side's argument, but they have not convinced me.  Biblical scholarship is very very good and the sources and original languages they contain are ancient and numerous.  

One example is John 10:34-35.  Jesus, as he does often, is quoting the Old Testament, condemning and judging the teachers for their incorrect judgement of him.  

Genesis 1 and 3 have examples of God speaking in the plural form.  

In John, Jesus is also called God by Thomas, and the Alpha, Omega, beginning and end in Revelation.  Isaiah 9 calls Jesus "Mighty God, Everlasting Father." He also calles himself "I am" (Yahweh) multiple times in the same book.  

But again, you have the choice to believe the scholars and interpretations that you adhere to.  

I guess I would challenge all to see both sides of the coin and also observe the plethora of careful scholarship, and transliteration of the Old and New Testaments before coming to a conclusion.  (In no way am I assuming that you did not do this:)

In my walk with Christ I have also considered what other critics are saying but my interaction with the God of the Bible and scripture just makes it that more true to me, even apart from ever knowing about the great scholarship available.  

Hope you understand my reasoning for not wanting to go longer.  I appreciate you taking the time to post this.  God bless you!!

This is my own article which I wrote a while back so I deceded to post it here. 

As for God speaking in the plural form, even if you look at some of the Christian Bible commentary’s on genesis, God is addressing the angels God says “Let Us(plural of majesty/royalty)” And same goes for “Our”, infact their is a plural of majesty in God’s name “Alohim” “Aleph lamed Heh mem” the “mem” at the end is a plural but it is seen as a plural of majesty and also “Alohim” is seen as absolute singular just like some other Hebrew words that I gave as an example. As for Isaiah 9 if you read it in Hebrew that’s not what it says, read the Jewish bible and you will see the proper interpretation, many times the NT misquotes the OT or non existent verses, to understand the gospel properly it should be reconstructed and all the verses in the OT regarding Jesus will fit perfectly in many places in the Godpel since they talk about the promised messiah specifically. 

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8 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Whew, that's a lot!  You didn't just write this for the discussion in the last few days did you??

I think for the sake of not having a debate (we both know where those go), I will make my comment brief.  If you would like to continue chatting about this through another means I would be up to that also, but a reply of reply of this length may lead to never ending circles of discussions.  By the way, I appreciate your research and thoroughness, although I have to disagree with you.

Your paper presents an opinion and a viewpoint, however, would not hold up in many circles.  These arguments have been refuted time and time again but I do understand that your sources are not ones I would agree with and vice versa, especially when it comes interpreting the meaning of important scriptures.  Like you, I have read and listened to the other side's argument, but they have not convinced me.  Biblical scholarship is very very good and the sources and original languages they contain are ancient and numerous.  

One example is John 10:34-35.  Jesus, as he does often, is quoting the Old Testament, condemning and judging the teachers for their incorrect judgement of him.  

Genesis 1 and 3 have examples of God speaking in the plural form.  

In John, Jesus is also called God by Thomas, and the Alpha, Omega, beginning and end in Revelation.  Isaiah 9 calls Jesus "Mighty God, Everlasting Father." He also calles himself "I am" (Yahweh) multiple times in the same book.  

But again, you have the choice to believe the scholars and interpretations that you adhere to.  

I guess I would challenge all to see both sides of the coin and also observe the plethora of careful scholarship, and transliteration of the Old and New Testaments before coming to a conclusion.  (In no way am I assuming that you did not do this:)

In my walk with Christ I have also considered what other critics are saying but my interaction with the God of the Bible and scripture just makes it that more true to me, even apart from ever knowing about the great scholarship available.  

Hope you understand my reasoning for not wanting to go longer.  I appreciate you taking the time to post this.  God bless you!!

Interesting, as for God speaking in a plural form if you look at some of the Christian bible commentary on genesis you will see that God is addressing the angels and is saying “Let Us” “Us” is a plural of majesty/royalty same goes for “Our” in fact even in God’s name “Alohim” their is a plural of majesty, “Aleph lamed Heh mem” the “mem” is a plural but it is seen as plural of Majesty/royalty and also “Alohim” is also seen as a absolute singular just like some Hebrew words which i showed as an example in my article. It is not strange that God uses a plural of majesty speech. 

 

Read John 10:28-29 that’s the full context I’ve address that in my article, Jesus explicitly denies being God after they took “i and the Father are one” out context to think that Jesus is claiming to be God by using scripture to show that what he said was just an expression. Meaning one in purpose. 

As for Thomas, many trinitarian scholars agree that Thomas was simply saying an expression the same way nowa days people say the expression “O my God” when they see something. 

As for the “I am” Argument, God’s name is name is not “I am” if we examine Exodus 3:14 it says in Hebrew “Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh” the word “I am” in Hebrew is “Ani” or also “Ani hu”, if we go back two verses earlier, in Exodus 3:12 the word “Ehyeh” is used and it means “I will”/“I will be” in Hebrew God says in Exodus 3:12 to Moses “Ehyeh(I will be) immek(with you)”, in Exodus 3:14 it says “I will be what I will be” 

as for Isaiah 9 if you read the Jewish Bible And also read it in Hebrew that’s not what it actually says, the Christian bible many times misinterpretes the OT verses so much the ones that are quoted in the NT in general an example is the “I am” Argument. 

As for the book of revelations, the 1st and the 2nd (the Pe[Edited Out]ta) canonical Bible did not include the book of revelations it was not seen as reliable book it was rather added years later on so the book of revelations is not quiet a good book to bring in a debate or an argument in general. 

 

I’ve looked at many of the trinitarian arguments and also read some history of the trinity, the doctrine of the trinity has been evolved through out the years if you look at history and how it was seen back then it is completely different to today’s point of view of the trinity. I’m surprised you put the clear verses aside which got me thinking how can it be possible after seeing two sides and seeing that one side is bringing clear arguments from scripture while the other is struggling and going to the extent of taking verses and idioms  out of context. Anyways it was good speaking to you. I also have an article on Paul which I wrote a while back, if you’re interested I can post it. 

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19 hours ago, Guest Guest said:

Jeremiah 8:8 read it in Hebrew, shows  that alterations have taken place but the Law has been persevered by God the Tanakh stories a portion of it has been corrupted

Hey!

I looked at both English and Hebrew and English and both say the same thing. Jeremiah, like other prophets God called, we’re calling out the people for not obeying his law, therefore this is why God is saying that it was in vain that they wrote. What good is it if the law is there and the people do not obey?

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12 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi we have ability for doing sin but also we have will to do not sin & can repent from our sins & become sinless like newborn child , that according to holy Quran it was our destiny was to live on earth that angles only saw dark side of our future for sins & shedding bloods on earth & disobeying humans against God/ Allah but Allah/God knew something from us that even arch Angles didn't knew & Satan / Shaitan became jealous because his race on earth just showed that dark side but they couldn't  reach to level of ruler of Allah/God on earth but humans can reach to this status & place that until end time & final trumpet of death we have both ability of doing sin then becoming  lower than animals & repenting then reaching to a place higher than angles but lowe than God/ Allah but nobody even prophets can sacrifice themselves for our sins but they can lead us to highest place over angles but lower than God/ Allah .

Hi, 

I agree we can sin or not sin but I do think that we are unable to be completely free of sin until eternity.  I believe in repentance but I think the repentance has to be based on something, not just forgiveness.  Have you ever met a person that has not sinned?  Why is it that immediately after Adam and Eve sin, the world seems different and from this point on humans die and nothing is perfect anymore?  God could have just forgiven Adam and Eve right there and then, but he does not.  He removed them from the garden and we see even their children cannot escape sin. We see symbolism of the coming messiah who would be sacrificed throughout the New Testament.  During the times of the plagues in Egypt we see the Passover.  The Israelites  were to sacrifice a pure and spotless lamb and spread the blood over the door so that they would not be killed by the angel of death.  This is a foreshadowing of Jesus, the spotless lamb who would be sacrificed for the sins of humanity and whoever is covered by the blood will live.  Even before this we see Abraham go to almost sacrifice Isaac.  What is provided instead is a ram caught in the thicket, a foreshadowing of another Father who would ultimately provide a substitute but in that instance it would be his Son.  Jesus talks about Moses' staff being raised up and relates it to the Son of Man being crucified.  The whole sacrificial system, the sacrificing of a spotless and blemish-less animal who was innocent points to the ultimate sacrifice to come.  Jesus was prepping his people for what was to come.  A high priest needed to be clean before going into the holy of holies to make a sacrifice on behalf of the people.  The book of Hebrews shows how Jesus became the high priest (the mediator between God and man as the God man), the sacrifice (the spotless lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world), and instead of the sacrificing being kept on an alter, the Son takes, in a sense, the perfect sacrifice to heaven before the Father.  The former way was a shadow of the things to come.  

I question you when you say that God cannot sacrifice himself.  Why not?  God is able to do anything that is not sinful?  Giving himself on behalf of his people is something good, an act of mercy, grace, love and forgiveness.  The Bible says his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55:8-9).  Job 36:26 among other verses talk about how God is beyond our understanding.  My question is, where does our sin go if not paid for?  If God is just, why does he just simply overlook sin?  What happens to everything bad we've done, the holocaust, other genocides, etc. etc.?  Surely our sins cannot just disappear.  God perfect in his nature and cannot allow sin in his presence.  And if we could be good to earn God's grace and love, we could never have assurance that we are indeed going to be in paradise.  God set up a sacrificial system to show how bad sin was.  He gave a law to show us how bad we were and how much we've fallen short of his glory.  Now, no one was forgiven simply because they made a sacrifice.  It was always about their faith in God and if they believed. in him.  The sacrifices were a covering for sin, not a removal.  However, the sacrifice of Christ was the basis for forgiveness for all generations, past and future. Also, we both agree God is love.  There is no greater sacrifice one can make than to lay down their life for someone.  Jesus did the ultimate expression of love (greater than anyone has ever done) by becoming like us, teaching us how to love and serve God and others, and taking our place so that we could live in paradise after death and be restored to God.  Can you think of a greater expression of love?  If I pushed you out of the way of a car and saved your life, you would think, wow, he gave his life for me.  I gave all I had so you could live.  I put everything on the line so that you could continue life but I no longer exist on the earth physically.  Jesus died for every single human being on earth for all time, so that all who would put their trust in him would live and be restored to their creator.  

God bless you . 

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18 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

I looked at both English and Hebrew and English and both say the same thing.

The word “law” is the wrong translation, in Hebrew it says “Torah of Yahweh” the fact that alteration has taken place shows that the some of biblical stories are have been altered. God promised to protect then laws in the Torah. If read Deuteronomy 13 or in some 12, you will see that it was a commandment not to add or remove a single letter from the Law and it must be studied. So the law has been perversed but not many of the biblical stores. 

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On 5/19/2020 at 2:20 AM, Guest Guest said:

Interesting, as for God speaking in a plural form if you look at some of the Christian bible commentary on genesis you will see that God is addressing the angels and is saying “Let Us” “Us” is a plural of majesty/royalty same goes for “Our” in fact even in God’s name “Alohim” their is a plural of majesty, “Aleph lamed Heh mem” the “mem” is a plural but it is seen as plural of Majesty/royalty and also “Alohim” is also seen as a absolute singular just like some Hebrew words which i showed as an example in my article. It is not strange that God uses a plural of majesty speech. 

 

Read John 10:28-29 that’s the full context I’ve address that in my article, Jesus explicitly denies being God after they took “i and the Father are one” out context to think that Jesus is claiming to be God by using scripture to show that what he said was just an expression. Meaning one in purpose. 

As for Thomas, many trinitarian scholars agree that Thomas was simply saying an expression the same way nowa days people say the expression “O my God” when they see something. 

As for the “I am” Argument, God’s name is name is not “I am” if we examine Exodus 3:14 it says in Hebrew “Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh” the word “I am” in Hebrew is “Ani” or also “Ani hu”, if we go back two verses earlier, in Exodus 3:12 the word “Ehyeh” is used and it means “I will”/“I will be” in Hebrew God says in Exodus 3:12 to Moses “Ehyeh(I will be) immek(with you)”, in Exodus 3:14 it says “I will be what I will be” 

as for Isaiah 9 if you read the Jewish Bible And also read it in Hebrew that’s not what it actually says, the Christian bible many times misinterpretes the OT verses so much the ones that are quoted in the NT in general an example is the “I am” Argument. 

As for the book of revelations, the 1st and the 2nd (the Pe[Edited Out]ta) canonical Bible did not include the book of revelations it was not seen as reliable book it was rather added years later on so the book of revelations is not quiet a good book to bring in a debate or an argument in general. 

 

I’ve looked at many of the trinitarian arguments and also read some history of the trinity, the doctrine of the trinity has been evolved through out the years if you look at history and how it was seen back then it is completely different to today’s point of view of the trinity. I’m surprised you put the clear verses aside which got me thinking how can it be possible after seeing two sides and seeing that one side is bringing clear arguments from scripture while the other is struggling and going to the extent of taking verses and idioms  out of context. Anyways it was good speaking to you. I also have an article on Paul which I wrote a while back, if you’re interested I can post it. 

Hi, sorry it took so long to get back to you.  I appreciate you taking the time to respond.  I know this is an important matter for both of us.  

I understand that there can be challenges to interpretation, especially when you're looking at an ancient book and when it's about God.  I have read everything you have posted, however, I still believe the research, scholarship and more importantly the scriptures itself are accurate in what they proclaim.  Trust me, there have been times when my faith has been tested in seeing what the other sides had to say about the Bible, however, studying it primarily, how God interacts with me in relationship and with others, and of course, the large amounts of scholarship and study that has been done over the last 2,000 years is too convincing for me.  You look at the evidence against and believe it to be convincing and me vice versa.  What you see clear as day against Jesus being God, I find confusing and lacking.  We both know, however, that one has to weight the evidence and decide what they believe to be truth and that there is only one truth.  

Jesus has come into my life and changed me completely.  I'm not who I used to be.  I have the fruit of God's Spirit in me, which is, "love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control."  I speak to him everyday and it has been amazing since day 1.  I walk, talk, and live in his love, in complete freedom from sin (even though I still do sin) because he paid the price for me and I no longer have to be trapped in sinful ways like before.  He has called me child of God, redeemed, free, loved, chosen, beloved, forgiven, and much more.  He has been gentle and compassionate with me.  And when I talk to Christ and know that he understands my pain and suffering (like when I experience depression, etc.), I am comforted to know that my God can relate to me.  Now, I'm not talking about having nice feelings all the time.  Those are just feelings.  But there is an awareness that God gives to you to know he is there.  

I know this may be frowned upon here at ShiaChat, but in the spirit of not starting an endless debate with loads of info (I'm sure you've watched some of the Muslim/Christian debates) that are not really over after hours lol), I wanted to send you some websites addressing some of your concerns with scholars who can frankly explain the complexities much better than I could ever.  I would also like for you to send me the article about Paul that you were talking about.  Are you a guest at ShiatChat or am I able to inbox you?  If you prefer I can post the links here.  You may even know these websites and more but if you like to read both sides of the coin, this may be helpful to you as you research this an other topics.  Also, it would be helpful to have some sites with muslim arguments, explanations, scholarship if you have them!

I really do love Muslims.  I have worked with them here and in other countries and they've been a pleasure to speak with.  

God bless you!

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6 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Hi, sorry it took so long to get back to you.  I appreciate you taking the time to respond.  I know this is an important matter for both of us.  

I’m a guest at shiachat, I’ve watched some well recognised trinitarian scholars even the islamphobic ones (since im interested in their evidence for their argument cus they tend to be harsh but in a good way...i hope that makes sense Hahaha), as for Muslim Christian debates just barely i am more interested in articles to see the two sides with their arguments.  I can post my article on Paul here. 

One thing I’ve recognised about some trinitarian scholars is that after clear verses have been shown the say the trinity is a progressing revelation, now this kind of system for theology has no basis and is actually very problematic. 

In Exodus 20:2-5 “I am the Lord, your God, who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the houses of bondage. You shall have no other gods upon My face. 

You shall not make for yourselves a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth. 

You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a zealous God, who visits the iniquity of the father’s upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me...”

notice it says “you shall not make yourselfs a graven image or any LIKENESS which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.“ obviously humans dwell on earth, so God can not be a human otherwise He is like a human. So Jesus being God is very contradicting and also Numbers 23:19 confirms that God is not a man nor the son of man(which is an idiom for human). Some say that God manifested himself in flesh through Christ, this also is very problematic, in 2 chronicles 6:18 it says  “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!” This shows that God cannot be confined within something because God is omnipresent(everywhere) and also in Malachi 3:6 it says “For I the Lord do not change” so this teaching contradicts what the bible says. Jesus also explicitly denies being God in Mark 10:17-18 and also in John 10:28-39 rather he recognises himself as Messenger and messiah , in John 17:3 jesus says, “Now this is eternal life: that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.” This passage shows that Jesus praying to God saying He(God) is the only true God and Jesus the messiah is the whom God sent. This beautiful verse is also the shahada(testimony) of the Christians any person who said this testimony was a follower of Christ and believer in the One true God. Also in Mathew 5:17 jesus came to fulfil the Law and the prophets not to abolish them so Jesus came and confirmed all of these. 

I’ve realised that Many Christians find it difficult on how the Gospel is supposed to be understood, even the Muslims the vast majority if not all. All the answers are their in the gospel but they struggle looking at the deeper layers of their verses in the gospel. 

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Guest Guest

@tdawg626 

I am a Guest at shiachat, I’ve actually watched many of the most recognised trinitarian scholars even the islamaphobic ones (since I’m interested in there evidence for their argument since their harsh but in a good way... if that makes sense Hahaha) , as for Muslim Christian debates Just barely, I’m more interested in articles to see both sides of their arguments. I can post my article on Paul over here. 

I’ve realised that many of the trinitarian scholars after they have been shown clear verses and arguments they say that the trinity is a progressive revelation, this teaching actually has no basis for theology and is problematic. 

 

Notic in Exodus 20:4 God says “You shall not make for yourselves a graven image or any LIKENESS which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.”

obviously humans dwell on earth so if God was a human then he would be like the human on earth. Numbers 23:19 confirms that God is not a man nor the son of man( an idiom for “human”). Some Say that God manifested himself in flesh through Christ, this aswell is contradicting in 2 chronicles 6:18 it says, “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!” This verse shows that God cannot be confined in a place because God is omnipresent(everywhere) so this idea of God manifesting himself in flesh is problematic and contradicting, in Malachi 3:6 God says, For I the Lord do not change”, Jesus himself explicitly denies being God in Mark 10:17-18 and John 10:28-39 rather jesus considered himself a Messenger of God and a messiah, in john 17:3 jesus is praying to God saying, “Now this is eternal life: that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.”

Jesus is praying to God saying He(God) is the only true God and that Jesus the messiah is whom God sent. This beautiful verse is also the shahada(testimony) for the Christians  any person who testified that their is no god but Allaha and Jesus is his Messenger was a Christian.  Also in Mathew 5:17 jesus says he came to fulfil the Law and the prophets not abolish them. Jesus came to confirm these not abolish them so it is clear that Jesus is not God in flesh nor God. 

Ive realised that many if not all Christians have a hard time understanding how the Gospel is meant to be treated and understood even the Muslims. All of the answers are in gospel but they have a hard time looking at the deeper layers of the verses. 

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56 minutes ago, Guest Guest said:

I’m a guest at shiachat, I’ve watched some well recognised trinitarian scholars even the islamphobic ones (since im interested in their evidence for their argument cus they tend to be harsh but in a good way...i hope that makes sense Hahaha), as for Muslim Christian debates just barely i am more interested in articles to see the two sides with their arguments.  I can post my article on Paul here. 

One thing I’ve recognised about some trinitarian scholars is that after clear verses have been shown the say the trinity is a progressing revelation, now this kind of system for theology has no basis and is actually very problematic. 

In Exodus 20:2-5 “I am the Lord, your God, who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the houses of bondage. You shall have no other gods upon My face. 

You shall not make for yourselves a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth. 

You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a zealous God, who visits the iniquity of the father’s upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me...”

notice it says “you shall not make yourselfs a graven image or any LIKENESS which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.“ obviously humans dwell on earth, so God can not be a human otherwise He is like a human. So Jesus being God is very contradicting and also Numbers 23:19 confirms that God is not a man nor the son of man(which is an idiom for human). Some say that God manifested himself in flesh through Christ, this also is very problematic, in 2 chronicles 6:18 it says  “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!” This shows that God cannot be confined within something because God is omnipresent(everywhere) and also in Malachi 3:6 it says “For I the Lord do not change” so this teaching contradicts what the bible says. Jesus also explicitly denies being God in Mark 10:17-18 and also in John 10:28-39 rather he recognises himself as Messenger and messiah , in John 17:3 jesus says, “Now this is eternal life: that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.” This passage shows that Jesus praying to God saying He(God) is the only true God and Jesus the messiah is the whom God sent. This beautiful verse is also the shahada(testimony) of the Christians any person who said this testimony was a follower of Christ and believer in the One true God. Also in Mathew 5:17 jesus came to fulfil the Law and the prophets not to abolish them so Jesus came and confirmed all of these. 

I’ve realised that Many Christians find it difficult on how the Gospel is supposed to be understood, even the Muslims the vast majority if not all. All the answers are their in the gospel but they struggle looking at the deeper layers of their verses in the gospel. 

Hi, 

Muslims and Christians alike find it hard to give answers for things. That is true of any faith. Also, not everyone is a scholar. I appreciate the verses you being forth, however, if you’ve watched and read many things by Trinitarian scholars, etc. and we’re not satisfied by their answers, mine being like theirs will surely not satisfy  or convince you. I am very familiar with the verses you state, however, when I research them like you do I come up with opposite conclusions. I also watch debates between Muslim and Christian scholars and see the same Muslim or Christian debating other scholars as well. Both sides have really good arguments and it’s really cool to watch them. They touch upon a lot of these verses and other debates topics between our two faiths. Still, I am honestly convinced by the Christian answers which I believe to be much more accurate and persuasive. What may seem like a no brainer or super clear to you regarding a verse or concept to me is not and vice versa. We simply have to agree to disagree and I think that’s ok. Today we are fortunate and maybe unfortunate to have so much I formation online and available to us in so many ways so it’s very easy to hear or read a predominant position on something. So, when I am able to finally use my messages (I think I need a certain number of posts) I will send you the links and a document I have and I would like to see your article on Paul. As always, a pleasure to chat back and forth with you!

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On 5/20/2020 at 5:30 PM, Guest Guest said:

@tdawg626 

I am a Guest at shiachat, I’ve actually watched many of the most recognised trinitarian scholars even the islamaphobic ones (since I’m interested in there evidence for their argument since their harsh but in a good way... if that makes sense Hahaha) , as for Muslim Christian debates Just barely, I’m more interested in articles to see both sides of their arguments. I can post my article on Paul over here. 

I’ve realised that many of the trinitarian scholars after they have been shown clear verses and arguments they say that the trinity is a progressive revelation, this teaching actually has no basis for theology and is problematic. 

 

Notic in Exodus 20:4 God says “You shall not make for yourselves a graven image or any LIKENESS which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.”

obviously humans dwell on earth so if God was a human then he would be like the human on earth. Numbers 23:19 confirms that God is not a man nor the son of man( an idiom for “human”). Some Say that God manifested himself in flesh through Christ, this aswell is contradicting in 2 chronicles 6:18 it says, “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!” This verse shows that God cannot be confined in a place because God is omnipresent(everywhere) so this idea of God manifesting himself in flesh is problematic and contradicting, in Malachi 3:6 God says, For I the Lord do not change”, Jesus himself explicitly denies being God in Mark 10:17-18 and John 10:28-39 rather jesus considered himself a Messenger of God and a messiah, in john 17:3 jesus is praying to God saying, “Now this is eternal life: that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.”

Jesus is praying to God saying He(God) is the only true God and that Jesus the messiah is whom God sent. This beautiful verse is also the shahada(testimony) for the Christians  any person who testified that their is no god but Allaha and Jesus is his Messenger was a Christian.  Also in Mathew 5:17 jesus says he came to fulfil the Law and the prophets not abolish them. Jesus came to confirm these not abolish them so it is clear that Jesus is not God in flesh nor God. 

Ive realised that many if not all Christians have a hard time understanding how the Gospel is meant to be treated and understood even the Muslims. All of the answers are in gospel but they have a hard time looking at the deeper layers of the verses. 

Hi, 

I'm not sure if you had sent the article on Paul, but I have not seen it as of yet.  I did want to recommend a book to you that was given to me several years ago.  I think you will find it interesting.  It is by a Christian man who lives in a Muslim country and regularly speaks to them, and I think his unique way of presenting the Bible and evidence for it is compelling.  It is called One God, One Message by P.D. Bramsen.  Not sure where you live, but I had seen it on amazon for less than two dollars used.  Here is a link to google shopping if you're interested. https://www.google.com/search?q=one+god+one+message&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS874US874&source=lnms&tbm=shop&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjRzf-mzcfpAhVDlKwKHbPqDDcQ_AUoA3oECBcQBQ&cshid=1590155115851758&biw=1536&bih=706

Have a great day!

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@tdawg626

 

@tdawg626

                         Refuting Paul 

 

Deuteronomy 13

13 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods”  and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

 

Paul believes and put elements of greek methodology such as “the Father” and “the Son” , The Father is God who dwells in heaven and the Son is the lower God, Paul was a Dualist and Hellenistic Jew convert. He put these Elements in the gospels and obviously his epistles are full of Greek methodology, but God dumb strucks him in one of his epistles.

 

 

Philippians 2:5-7

5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

 

Now in verse 5 Paul is telling the people to have the same mindset as Jesus amongst each other then he continues on in verse by saying 6 “who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” and he go’s in verse 7 by pretty much saying jesus took on a form of a human. 

 

In verse 6 Paul says “Who being very nature God” over here Paul believes Jesus to be God but then as we continue on in verse 6 Paul says “did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage”  Now over here Paul is distinguishing Jesus from God but he also believes jesus was also God beside God but Jesus who is the second God manifested himself in a human form ,as verse 7 shows, so that he is no longer equal to God rather he is limited. 

 

Now this is obviously a heresy and dualism since Jesus is a God beside God, despite jesus manifesting himself in a human form because in nature he is a God beside God except he is a limited God beside God. This is obviously not Monotheism at all and contradicts the Law and the prophets.

 

 

 

Colossians 1:15 

15The Son is the image of the invisible God

 

God says in, Isaiah 40:18 “To whom will you liken God? To what image will you compare Him”

 

Exodus 20:4 “You shall not make for yourselves a graven image or any LIKENESS which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth.”

 

Deuteronomy 4:15-16 “And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. 

 

Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female,”

 

“I am God, and there’s no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9 

 

Isaiah 40:25 “To whom will you compare Me? Or is my equal? Says the Holy One.

 

Isaiah 46:5 “With whom will you compare Me or count Me equal ? To whom will you compare Me so we are alike?” Says the Lord”

 

Isaiah 45:6

In order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am LORD and there is no other. 

 

Isaiah 45:5

I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God...

 

Paul is clearly contradicting the Law and the prophets, God has no form of any likeness that is in the heavens above or on earth below or below the earth under the sea. If God has no form, then Jesus cannot be the image of God otherwise it would be implying that God has human form which is Jesus himself or Jesus is what God looks like this is obviously blasphemy and contradicts the Law and the prophets. 

 

 

Galatians 1:6-10 

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!

 

10Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.

 

No angel of God from heaven will deceive people, if God wanted to test His people he would send deceivers like Paul, read Deuteronomy 13, it’s either a dreamer (which is Paul) or a false prophet, some people knew Paul was a false disciple of Christ. Paul is desperately trying to win their approval in a clever way and lead them astray from the true path forever which is his main goal.

 

 

Paul contradicts Jesus’ disciple James the just and Jesus himself, Paul taught contrary to what Jesus and James the Just taught. 

 

Paul’s says in, Galatians 2:16 

16know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. 

 

Romans 3:28

28For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 

 

Romans 7:1-4

1Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. 3So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

4So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ,”

 

Over here Paul gave a parable which is clearly implying that the law as been abolished through Christ’s crucifixion thus a person no longer needs to observe the law.

 

Ephesians 2:14-15

“14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.”

 

Paul obviously is implying that God’s Law brings hostility when obviously that is not the case otherwise God will be unjust and evil, that is blasphemy. Since Paul believes God’s Law brings hostility he go’s on by saying the law is pretty much abolished through Christ flesh(implying through his crucifixion).

 

Galatians 5:18

18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

Galatians 5:4

4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

 

Galatians 3:13

13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us

 

Again Paul is blaspheming God by saying His laws are a curse, God does not burden his servant nor does He put His servants  in a burden, Paul is pretty much implying that through Jesus’ crucifixion the Law was abolished. 

 

Galatians 3:24-25

24So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

 

 

James the just says  James 2:14-

14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 

 

And also James 2:8-11

8If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,”  you are doing right. 9But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. 10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

 

James the just makes it clear that having faith does not save a person without performing good deeds (i.e fulfilling religious obligations). James the Just implies in James 2:8-11 that if a person adheres to the laws but neglects one law then that person that’s observing the other laws, his adherence is in vain since he as neglected one law of the Laws, a person has to try and observe all the laws in order for his adherence to he valid in God’s sight. 

 

 

Mathew 5:17-20:

Fulfilling the Law and prophets 

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets(unaltered teachings and message); I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 

18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

20For I tell you that unless your 

righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the scribes, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

 

Jesus makes it clear in Mathew 5:17 that he came to fulfil the Law(Mosaic Law) and the prophets (unaltered message of the prophets), now since Jesus came to fulfil the law & the prophets that means he came to fulfil the same message of the other prophets that came before him which is to believe in the absolute oneness of God which the Jews believe in and the the law of Moses which the prophets abided by. 

 

2 Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face(favours), and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

 

Ecclesiastes 12:13 “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” 

 

I Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

 

It is clear that the prophets of old adhered to the Law of Moses and preached to adhere to the law of Moses. Paul on the other hand is clearly contradicting Jesus and James the Just and is not abiding by the Law of Moses, Jesus makes it clear in Mathew 5:20 if a person does not harken to the Law of Moses and be better then Pharisees then that person will not enter paradise. Paul says a person is saved by faith while James the Just and Jesus believe a person is save by faith and good deeds (i.e fulfilling religious obligations and doing good), Jesus also says in Mathew 5:19 if someone neglects one of the laws and preaches to do the same would be the least in paradise, rationally if someone neglects all the laws or most of the laws then that person won’t be in heaven as Mathew 5:20 clearly shows. This also shows that Paul is in hell as we speak since he contradicts Jesus teachings and James the Just and also shows that Jesus did not die for your sins if Jesus died for your sins that means that a person can steal or commit murder and also Paul believes if a person declares Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised Jesus from the dead you will be saved (Romans 10:9), Jesus says otherwise in Mathew 5:19 and also James the just in James 2:8-11, 2:14. 

Since Jesus came to fulfil the prophets and the law this means jesus also came to fulfil Ezekiel 18:20-21,

“The soul that sins, it shall die, a son shall not bear the sins of the father, and the father shall not bear the sins of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. And if the wicked man repent of all his sins  that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die.”

 

And also Hosea 6:6, “6For I desire mercy, not sacrifice” It is clear that God didn’t send anyone to sacrifice as Hosea 6:6 clearly states God desires mercy not sacrifice, that means sacrifices have been abolish long ago by prophet Hosea, and Jesus came to fulfil it as Mathew 5:17 clearly shows. 

 

So the whole original sin doctrine was not taught by jesus nor did Jesus’ disciples preach that nor did they preach that if some testifies Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead would be save. Is was a Pauline teaching not from Jesus at all. 

 

2 Corinthians 5:

We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

This obviously contradicts Jesus teachings and James the Just as clearly shown above. This simply Paul deceiving other people from going the true path. 

If Paul was really a disciple of Christ then he he would follow jesus’ command, Jesus commanded to follow the Law and the prophets. 

 

John 15:10

“If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.”

 

 

Jesus commanded to follow God’s commandments and also gave us parables to guide us and give us examples  so if someone does not do any of these then he or she would be in hellfire for not obeying God’s Messenger and commandments.  And if you obey God’s commandments then you would be dear to God Almighty and remain in His love. 

What Paul teaches is contradicts jesus’ teachings and has no basis as all. It is clear that Paul is in hell for not abiding by the law which Jesus came to fulfil and preach. 

 

 

Through out Jesus’ mission he always preached to hold on to the law and the law is the only why to salvation(eternal life) here are few passages which show that clearly. 

 

 

Mark 10:17-23:

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

 

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

 

20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

 

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

 

22At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

 

 

Jesus over here tells this fellow to follow the commandments in order to receive eternal life. 

 

 

Mark 7:1-23:

1The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus 2and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3(The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles. )

 

5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

 

6He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“ ‘These people honor me with their lips,

but their hearts are far from me.

7They worship me in vain;

their teachings are merely human rules.’ 

8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

 

9And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’  11But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

 

14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them. 16If anyone has ears to hear, let them hear.”

 

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18“Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” 

 

20He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”

 

Jesus exposed the teachers of the law by they abandoning one of the commandments and replacing it with their man made laws, jesus criticises them and shows how irrational their man made Law from a logical and rational point of view, it is clear that Jesus defended the commandments and preached to adhere to the law.  Further more the Tanakh makes it clear God’s Law is simple and brings ease not what Paul tries to betray the law as a curse,  Psalms 19:8 

 

“8The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the Lord is faithful, making the simple one wise.”

 

It is clear that Paul is trying hard to deceive people but the only thing he is doing is exposing himself by blaspheming God by saying his Law is a curse. 

 

 

 

 

 

Jesus was saved and God made Paul dumb struck and admit it himself, Paul knew the true message of Christ but he didn’t want his teaching to triumphant and unfortunately he won...but for now, Hebrews 5:7 

 

7During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

 

Psalms 34:17-22

[But the righteous] cry, and the LORD hears, and delivers them(Plural of majesty) out of all their(Plural of majesty) troubles. The LORD [is] near those(plural of majesty) who are(Plural of majesty) of a broken heart; and saves such who are(Plural of majesty) of a contrite spirit. Many [are] the affliction of the righteous(Plural of majesty) , but the LORD delivers him out of them all. He keeps all his bones, not one of them will be broken. Evil will slay the wicked, and those who hate the righteous will be desolate. The LORD redeems the soul of His servants, and none of those who trust in Him will be desolate. 

 

Luke 22:39-44

Jesus Prays on the Mount of Olives

39Then, accompanied by the disciples, Isho left the upstairs room and went as usual to the Mount of Olives. 40There he told them, “Pray that you will not give in to temptation.”

 

41He walked away, about a stone’s throw, and knelt down with his face to the ground and prayed, 42“Father, if you are willing, please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want Your will to be done, not mine.” 43Then an angel from heaven appeared and strengthened him. 44He prayed more fervently, and he was in such agony of spirit that his sweat fell to the ground like great drops of blood. (Psalms 34:6-8)-(Psalms 28:1-8)

 

Deuteronomy 21:22-23

If a man commits a sin for which he is sentenced to death, and he is put to death  you shall then hang him on a pole. But you shall not leave his body on the pole overnight. Rather, you shall bury him on that same day, for a hanging human corpse is a blasphemy of God, and you shall not defile your land, which the LORD, your God, is giving you as an inheritance. 

 

Psalms 34:6-8

this poor man cried, and the LORD heard, and saved him out of all his troubles. The angel of the LORD encamps around those(Plural of majesty) who fear Him, and delivered them(plural of majesty). O taste and see that the LORD [is] good, blessed [is] the man [who] trusts Him.

 

 

It is obvious why jesus prayed to be saved if he was crucified on the cross then he would be considered as a blasphemer to God and the ignorant will see jesus as a blasphemer and not just that but a sinner aswell, the Jews have given many false accusations and misinterpreted Jesus words, if we look at John 10:27-39 

 

John 10:27-39

27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one(in purpose).”

 

31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

 

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

 

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ? 35If he called them ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am the son of God’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 

 

38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

 

 

John 10:29

My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

 

John 10:30

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

 

John 10:31

My LORD, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my LORD’s hand.

 

John 10:32

I and the LORD are one(in purpose).”

 

As can be seen from John 10:29 and John 10:30 Jesus was telling the Jews that he and God share something in common, and it was: no one can pluck the faithful from either of their hands. This was the common factor between Jesus and God in this case, and not that Jesus was himself God, or that they were exactly the same.

 

In john 10:32 we see that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus had meant by “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:29). And in john 10:33 they accused him of blasphemy. Now, had Jesus been God, or had he and God been one in a literal sense then he wouldn’t have hesitated to clarify the matter at that point. Jesus at that point said, “Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?” What he was trying to say was that if the Jews called “I and my Father are one” blasphemy then they should call what was written in their law “You are gods” blasphemy too.

 

The reasoning behind this is “You are elohim” does not mean that you, the Jewish Messengers, are Gods, it is rather an expression. It just means that you are godly people. The same applies to “I and my Father are one.” It does not mean that Jesus is God or that he and God are the same literally. It’s just an expression. 

 

It’s is clear that Jews gave false accusations and took his words out of context even though who showed them a Clear metaphor as an example, jesus through out his life spoke metaphorically in some parts of the Gospel. Jesus feared the crucifixion from how harsh it is and how it will effect his reputation, God answers his prays as seen in the Psalms and Hebrews 5:7 testifies to it, thus he is saved from this burden. 

 

 

Was Paul a terrorist? 

Now that we know Paul is a false dreamer and is a false disciple of Christ, what did Saul(Paul) do the church of God and the original followers of Christ the are called  the Way, in the time of the disciples of Christ? 

 

Acts 7

57At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.

59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Master Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “LORD, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.

 

Acts 8 

1And Saul approved of their killing him.

 

The Church Persecuted and Scattered

On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.

 

Acts 9 

1Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Master’s disciples. He went to the high priest 2and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to, the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 

 

It is clear that Saul(Paul) killed the original followers of Christ whom also called themselves, the Way. Saul(Paul) threatened the disciples and teamed up with the enemies of Christ against his followers and disciples. He also terrorised and murdered the people in the church of God who are the true followers of Christ. Saul(Paul) wanted to wipe out the message of Christ and his followers but they kept on flourishing across the world. Saul(Paul) couldn’t keep up with them and would have to make a big army in order to compete with them so Saul(Paul) decided to hijack Jesus message  within Christianity and deceive the people by altering the message of Christ about monotheism and adhering to the confirmed reformed law that Christ brought. Saul(Paul) copied the gospel and added his own words to it and removed some words to support his dualism doctrine, and he went on preaching Jesus is the literal Son of God. Acts 9 

Saul spent several days with the believers in Damascus. 20At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

Obviously over here Saul(Paul) started his mission to misguide people by preaching Jesus is the literal Son of God which makes jesus another lower God then God himself; which is a dualist doctrine.  Paul(Saul) is obviously trying his hardest to get rid of Jesus’ original message and teachings. that was after staying with believers for a while before he began to hijack the message of Jesus. Let’s go further in Acts 9

 

 

26When he came to Jerusalem, he tried to join the disciples, but they were all afraid of him, not believing that he really was a disciple. 27But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles. He told them how Saul on his journey had seen the Master and that the Master had spoken to him, and how in Damascus he had preached fearlessly in the name of Jesus.

 

Obviously over here Saul(Paul) has deceived Barnabas and said that he had preached Christ’s gospel. The disciples knew they couldn’t trust him due to his terrorising attacks but Barnabas convinced them since Saul(Paul) deceived Barnabas that he had a dream about Jesus and speaking to him. 

 

Paul continued to use his false dream and story of jesus appointing him to deceive people in to the wrong path. Paul used Jesus’ peaceful message to deceive and block the people from the true message of Christ. 

 

Acts 26

14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,  ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15“Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

 

Paul used a smart strategy to deceive the people but he was afraid at the same time 

 

Acts 15

Disagreement Between Paul and Barnabas

36Some time later Paul said to Barnabas, “Let us go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preached the word of the Lord and see how they are doing.” 37Barnabas wanted to take John, also called Mark, with them, 38but Paul did not think it wise to take him, because he had deserted them in Pamphylia and had not continued with them in the work. 39They had such a sharp disagreement that they parted company. Barnabas took Mark and sailed for Cyprus, 40but Paul chose Silas and left, commended by the believers to the grace of the Lord. 41He went through Syria and Cilicia, strengthening the churches.

 

Obviously Paul didn’t want to go back with  the apostle Mark,  back to the places that he and Barnabas preached at, and  it’s obvious, because if he did then he would be persecuted eventually after apostle Mark finds out what Paul is preaching behind the apostles and Barnabas. And according to the Law (Deuteronomy 13) he has to be killed since his a false dreamer if they found out.  And the passage mentions that Paul deserted apostle Mark. Paul preached his own beliefs to the people to deceive them after that. 

 

Why was Paul really afraid? And had a sharp argument with Barnabas? 

 

Acts 13 

28Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb. 30But God raised him from the dead, 31and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.

32“We tell you the good news: What God promised our ancestors 33he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:

“ ‘You are my son;

today I have become your father.’ 

34God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. As God has said,

“ ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’ 

35So it is also stated elsewhere:

“ ‘You will not let your holy one see decay.’ 

 

36“Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. 37But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

 

38“Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

 

Paul claims that Jesus was crucified and buried in a tomb but was raised on the third day and became God’s Son,  Paul misquotes Psalms 2:7 terribly to support his claims that Jesus was raised up to be God’s Son on the third day, and Paul tries to justify his theology by quoting a small portion of Psalms 16:10 and again Paul misquotes the passage again, and then Paul goes on saying that it is through Christ that your sins are forgiven and freed from sin which they were not able to obtain with the Law of Moses. 

 

Now their are many things that are problematic with his claims, his first deception was misquoting the Psalms 2:7 

What does Psalm2:7 say and what is its meaning and about.  Psalms 2:7 ”I will tell of the decree; The LORD said to me, You are My son; and this day have I begotten you.” 

 

What does the expression “Begotten” and “son” mean ?  Here are some examples.

 

The verse in I John 5:1 says, “...Jesus is the Christ is born of God....” This indicates that Jesus was born of God, but was Jesus the only born son of God? Let us look at what the Bible says:

God talking to Moses:

Exodus 4:22 And you shall say to Pharaoh, so said the LORD, “My  firstborn son is Israel”

 

Exodus 4:23 So I say to you, ‘Send out My son so that he will worship Me, but if you refuse to send him out, behold, I am going to slay your firstborn son’”

 

In  Exodus 4:22-23  Israel is respectively, was regarded as the first born son of God. This means that Jesus was not the only born son of God. This means that the word “born” does not mean conception. It’s just a form of expression God used to show the closeness of people to Him.

Finally, there were many other people mentioned in the bible as sons of God, and one of them was Solomon:

 

I Chronicles 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days.

 

I Chronicles 22:10 He shall build an house for my name; and he shall be my son, and I will be his father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever.

 

Also, remember that some of these verses are taken from the Old Testament, and that this book was originally written in Hebrew. Had the word born or son meant born or son in a literal sense then the Jews would have been ahead of everyone else in claiming their literal sonship to God, or in claiming the literal sonship of Solomon to God. The Jews know their language, and they know what son means. They know that the word “son” should not be taken literally.

 

If Jesus is not the only born son of God, then what does begotten or born mean? Should the two words be taken literally? The only way we can justify these words is by looking at the Bible again. In I Peter 1:3 the Bible says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” The word begotten is also used here. God can beget us unto lively hope. Does the word “begotten” here mean conception? No. It is a form of expression. This word means “gave rise to” or “brought”.

 

Also in Job 38:28 the Bible says, “Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?” Can the drops of dew be begotten? No. It’s just a form of expression. Rain does not have a father nor are drops of dew begotten in a literal sense.

 

If we cannot take the word begotten in literal sense with David, the drops of dew, or “us unto a lively hope” then why should we take Jesus as the literal begotten son of God?

 

Finally, in the book Revelation 1:5 says, “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.” Why is it that when Jesus is mentioned as being begotten of God it is taken literally, and when he is mentioned that he is begotten from the dead it is not taken literally? The truth is because the word begotten here does not mean any one could be conceived of the dead; it is a form of expression. The same thing with God, He begets not, and this word “begotten” is only a form of expression.

 

What’s Psalms 2 about since it’s referring to Christ? Let’s see the context.

 

Psalms 2:12

Why have nations gathered and [why do] kingdoms think vain things? 

 

Kings of a land stand up, and nobles take counsel together against the LORD and against His Messiah ? 

 

“Let us break their bands and cast off their cords from us.”

 

He who dwells in heaven laughs(reference to jesus); the LORD mocks them.

 

Then He speaks to them in His wrath; and He frightens them with His sore displeasure.

 

“But I have enthroned My king on Zion, My holy mount.”

 

I will tell of the decree; The LORD said to me, “You are My son(godly servant); this day I have begotten(gave rise to) you. 

 

Request of Me, and I will make nations your inheritance, and the ends of the earth your possession.

 

You shall break them with an Iron rod; like a potter’s vessel you shall shatter them.”

 

And now, [you] kings, be wise; be admonished, [you] Judges of earth.

 

Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with quaking.

 

Arms yourselves with purity lest He becomes angry and you perish in the way; for in a moment His wrath will be kindled; the praise of all who take refuge in Him.

 

 

Obviously this Psalms 2 talks about how the nations and the Pharisees plotted against Jesus, God’s Messiah, and shows how God plotted against them by saving Jesus and raising Jesus to the heavens and Jesus is laughing at them and God mocks them. The passage also talks of future events that will happen when Christ returns. This Psalms is obviously not in Paul’s favour rather Paul is concealing the context of the Psalms 2, now add it up with the next Psalms he mentions. 

 

Paul terribly misquotes Psalms 16:10 to support his beliefs, he concealed other parts of the verse that actually give a context to the verse, what Paul did was take the verse out of context to support his doctrine, the verse does refer to jesus but what is the proper the context of Psalms 16? Lets see...

 

Psalms 16:11

.....O’God, guard me for I have taken refuge in You. You should should say to the LORD, “You are my Master; my good is not incumbent upon You”

 

For the  holy ones who are in the earth, and the mighty ones in whom is all my delight.

 

May the sorrows of those who hasten after another [deity) increase; I will not pour their libations of blood, nor will I take their names upon my lips.

 

The LORD is my allotted portion and my cup; You guide my destiny.

 

Portions have fallen to me in pleasant places; even the inheritance pleases me.”

 

I will bless the LORD, Who concealed me; even at night my conscience instructs me.

 

I have placed the LORD before me constantly; because [He is] at my right hand, I will not falter.

 

Therefor, my heart rejoiced, and my soul was glad; even my flesh shall dwell in safety.

 

For You shall not forsake my soul to the grave; You not allow Your pious ones to see the pit.

 

You shall let me know the way of life, the fullness of joys in Your presence. There is a pleasantness in Your right hand forever.

 

 

Psalms 16 make it clear that Jesus was saved by Jesus escaping from the crucifixion when everything turned dark thus God concealed him and he run to safety and did not face the crucifixion and he, According to the Psalms, spoke against the gentiles who indulged in hanging him on the cross and hurting him whom believe in a false deity. And was raised to the heavens.  It is clear that Psalms 16:10 is not in Paul’s favour thus he concealed a part of it and revealed a part of it. 

 

Obviously Paul either forgot that Jesus came to fulfil the Law and reform it and he did not come to abolish the law and the message of the prophets(before they got tampered with a bit) or  he is deceiving people like he already did before. 

 

Does God forgive other people’s sins if they turn back to Him? Let see what the OT says...

 

II Chronicles 7:14 “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face(favours), and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.”

 

Ecclesiastes 12:13 “Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.” 

 

I Samuel 15:22 “And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.”

 

Ezekiel 18:20-21

The soul that sins, it shall die, a son shall not bear the sins of the father, and the father shall not bear the sins of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. And if the wicked man repent of all his sins  that he has committed and keeps all My laws and executes justice and righteousness, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 

 

Also Jesus in Matthew makes it Clear that one must obey the laws to enter heaven and the one who neglects the least of the Law will be least in the heavens. So if that person neglects all the laws then he would be sent to hell 

Mathew 5:18-19. 

 

Mathew 5: 18-19.

18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

 

Is is clear that God forgives people’s sins no matter how much they committed with the condition that they uphold God’s Law and submit to Him. 

 

It is clear that Paul thought it was not wise get Mark the disciple of Christ with him back to were he and Barnabas preached because he taught the opposite of what the disciples of Christ teach, Barnabas and Jesus himself. And that Paul would have to be killed since his a false dreamer if the disciple of Christ found out, according to the law. 

 

Paul in his epistle again tried to deceive people by altering the context of the law to suit his doctrine in Romans 10 

 

1Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. 4Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

 

5Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.”  6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ”  (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ”  (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

 

 

Paul quotes verses from Deuteronomy 30 to the people and gives a small commentary on it. But is his commentary inline with the context of Deuteronomy 30? Let’s see what Deuteronomy 30 says...

 

30:10-14 

When you obey the LORD, your God, to observe His commandments and His statues written in this Torah scroll, [and] when you return to the LORD, your God with all your heart work all your soul.

 

For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealed from you, nor it is far away. 

 

It is not in heaven, that you should say, “who will up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?” 

 

Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, “Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us to fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?” 

 

Rather, [this] thing is very close to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it 

 

 

Obviously Paul took the verse out of context to support his false doctrine, the verses speak for themselves as can be seen above, it has nothing to do with Christ nor relates to Christ. Paul then goes ahead and claims that if someone says “Jesus is Lord” and God raised him from the dead he will be saved; but does jesus teach something like that? How does one  inherit eternal life(paradise) ? Let’s see what Jesus says....

 

Mathew 5:17-20:

Fulfilling the Law and prophets 

17“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets(unaltered teachings and message); I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 

18For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 

20For I tell you that unless your 

righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the scribes, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

 

Mark 10:17-23:

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

 

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 19You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’”

 

20“Teacher,” he declared, “all these I have kept since I was a boy.”

 

21Jesus looked at him and loved him. “One thing you lack,” he said. “Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

 

22At this the man’s face fell. He went away sad, because he had great wealth.

23Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God!”

 

 

Mark 7:1-23:

1The Pharisees and some of the teachers of the law who had come from Jerusalem gathered around Jesus 2and saw some of his disciples eating food with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. 3(The Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they give their hands a ceremonial washing, holding to the tradition of the elders. 4When they come from the marketplace they do not eat unless they wash. And they observe many other traditions, such as the washing of cups, pitchers and kettles. )

 

5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, “Why don’t your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with defiled hands?”

 

6He replied, “Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

“ ‘These people honor me with their lips,

but their hearts are far from me.

7They worship me in vain;

their teachings are merely human rules.’ 

8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

 

9And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’  11But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)— 12then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

 

14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them. 16If anyone has ears to hear, let them hear.”

 

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18“Are you so dull?” he asked. “Don’t you see that nothing that enters a person from the outside can defile them? 19For it doesn’t go into their heart but into their stomach, and then out of the body.” 

 

20He went on: “What comes out of a person is what defiles them. 21For it is from within, out of a person’s heart, that evil thoughts come—sexual immorality, theft, murder, 22adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and defile a person.”

 

 

Mark 12:28-34 : 

The Most important Commandment

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

 

29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one(wholly).  30Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’  31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’  There is no commandment greater than these.”

 

32“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one(wholly) and there is no other but Him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

 

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

 

 

It is clear that Jesus taught people to observe the Law to receive paradise, in other words be saved from hell. Thus completely nullifies Paul’s teachings and also proves that Paul is making up his own rules and doctrine to deceive the people, which then causes people not to be saved since they didn’t adhere to the Law. Deuteronomy 30:10-14 actually exposes Paul since in verse 14 it shows a person must fulfil the Law and it’s not hard, it’s in your heart and in your mouth and not somewhere far away. 

 

 

 

Paul Lying to the Judge ? In acts 24 we see Paul explicitly lying to the judge about his beliefs...

 

10When the governor motioned for him to speak, Paul replied: “I know that for a number of years you have been a judge over this nation; so I gladly make my defense. 11You can easily verify that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city. 13And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me. 14However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

 

Acts 24:

5“We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect 6

 

If Paul was really a follower of, the Way, he wouldn’t be contradicting jesus teachings and taking verses out context and the prophets and the Law.

 

If he was really a follower of, the Way then he wouldn’t be a dualist! Because that is not the case in his epistle Philippians 2:6-8

 

“6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

8And being found in appearance as a man” 

 

 

John:14:6

6Jesus answered, “I am, the Way; and [the] truth and the [way to] [eternal] life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

Jesus first addresses himself to be one those who belong to the sect called “the Way” then says his the truth and the way to enteral life(paradise) and it is except through Christ whom the truth is with and enteral life(paradise), can come to the LORD well pleasing and pleased. If Paul was really from the, the Way, sect then he would believe there is only one God and  no other, not another god beside God aswell that takes on a form of a human. 

 

 

 

Was Saul(Paul) foretold in the OT as a deceiver? Let’s see what the OT says..

 

Isaiah 28:14-22

Isaiah tells us who Paul is and what he does and Paul tells you the exact same thing in Galatians 6:14, let’s see what prophet Isaiah says...

 

Isaiah 28:14-22

Therefore hear the word of the LORD, scornful men, rulers of this people in Jerusalem. Because you have said, WE HAVE CUT A COVENANT WITH DEATH; and, We have made a vision with SHAUL(Paul,  שְׁא֖וֹל “Saul” Shaul שְׁא֖וֹל), when the overwhelming rod passes through it will not come to us for we have made a LIE OUR REFUGE and WE HAVE HIDDEN IN FALSEHOOD. So, the LORD God says this: Behold, I placed in Zion a stone for a foundation, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; he who believes shall not hurry. And I will lay JUSTICE FOR A LINE, and RIGHTEOUSNESS FOR A PLUMMET; and THE HAIL SHALL SWEEP AWAY THE REFUGE OF THE LIE; and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. And YOUR COVENANT WITH DEATH shall be atoned for; and YOUR VISION WITH SHAUL(Paul, שְׁא֖וֹל “Saul” Shaul שְׁא֖וֹל) SHALL NOT RISE UP. When the overwhelming whip passes through, then you shall be for a tramping to it. AS OFTEN AS IT PASSES, it shall take you; for MORNING by MORNING It shall pass; and BY DAY and BY NIGHT, it shall only be a TERROR TO UNDERSTAND THE MESSAGE. For the bed is shorter then the one can stretch himself on; and the cover is narrower than the one can wrap himself in. For God shall rise up, as at mount Perazim; He shall be stirred as in the Gibeon Valley; to do His work, His strange work, and to perform His task, His foreign task. So, then, DO NOT BE MOCKERS, that your bonds not be made strong. For I have heard the LORD God of hosts that A FULL END IS DECREED ON ALL EARTH. 

 

 

Also Isaiah 28:9 

 

Isaiah 28:9-11

Who is it he is trying to teach? To whom is he trying to explain his message ? To children weaned from their milk, to those just taken from the breast? 

 

1 Corinthians 3:2 

2I gave you milk,not solid food,for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 

 

For a precept for a percept, a percept for a percept, a line for a line, a line for a line, a little here, little there.

For with a distorted speech and in another language, does he speak to this people. 

 

14 Corinthians 21:

21In the Law it is written:

“With other tongues

and through the lips of foreigners

I will speak to this people,

but even then they will not listen to me,

says the Lord.” 

 

Isaiah 28:12-14 

“For he said to them, “This is the rest; give rest to the weary, and this is the tranquility”, but they would not listen 

 

And the word of the LORD shall be for them a percept for a percept, a percept for a percept, a line for a line, a line for a line, a little here, a little there, in order that they go and STUMBLE BACKWARDS AND BE BROKEN, and TRAPPED AND CUAGHT.

 

Therefore, listen to the world of the LORD, men of scorn, allegorists of this people who are in Jerusalem.” 

 

 

It is clear that the OT foretells about a man who mentions a line(passage) of the Law and prophets and takes them out context to mislead people from the true path and trapped them in misguidance. He is also foretold by name, “Shaul” clearly in Hebrew unfortunately arrogant Jews and priests try to hide that. But they certainly failed to do so. Only the ignorant were able to fall for that. 

 

 

Paul giving false accusations?

 

Galatians 2:

11When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

 

 

Paul’s claims that Simon Peter, who is also called Cephas, and Barnabas went astray and they were forcing people to follow the law of Moses, now are these claims true or are they out of hatred? Let’s see what happened. 

 

Acts 15

1Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

 

We can see that Barnabas and Paul has a big dispute with other teachers let’s see what conclusion did they come to, and does it have any basis. 

 

Acts 15

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the holy spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?

 

Simon gave a speech and got them to ponder and think about their forefathers time what they had bore and what they themselves have to bare, then eventually Simon comes to an conclusion to settle this issue.

 

Acts 15:

20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

 

 

What Simon Peter did is introduce to them slowly the law of Noah and slowly get them to adhere completely to the law of Moses as they progress such as, some of the kosher laws(besides some of the abrogated parts within the kosher law), sabbath and many of the commandments within 613 commandments besides some of the abrogated ones. Now does Simon’s preaching have a basis? Did he receive a revelation from God ? 

 

 

Acts 10: 

11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles and birds. 13Then a voice told him, “Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.”

 

14“Surely not, LORD!” Peter replied. “I have never eaten anything impure or unclean.”

15The voice spoke to him a second time, “Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.”

 

16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

 

Simon has received a revelation from God which shows some animals have been made lawful to him to eat and clean, this was obviously a revelation to prepare Simon for a dispute that would occur later on. And he judged carefully using God’s revelation and law.  Now we know that Simon has a basis for his ruling and gave a reasonable ruling, so how can Simon be astray if he judged according to God’s Law and revelation ? And before he received the revelation he was following the Law of Moses on some of the kosher laws.  This only proves how much of a hypocrite is Paul for giving a false accusation and pretending to be with the truth. 

 

If Simon Peter was astray then Jesus God’s Messenger wouldn’t appoint Simon Peter as his successor since Jesus would know how Simon Peter is and would receive a revelation from God not to appoint Simon Peter as successor. Just like how jesus knew Judas would betray him through revelation. Barnabas was following the truth and the truth was with Simon Peter since he was appointed by Christ himself. 

 

John 21:

 

15When he had finished eating, Isho said to Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love me more than these?”

 

“Yes, Master,” he said, “you know that I love you.”

 

Jesus said, “Feed my lambs.”

 

16Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

 

He answered, “Yes, Master, you know that I love you.”

 

Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”

 

17The third time he said to him, “Simon son of John, do you love me?”

 

Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, “Do you love me?” He said, “Master, you know everything; you know that I love you.”

 

Jesus said, “Feed my sheep. 18Very truly I tell you, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, “Follow me!”

 

It is clear that Jesus knew all things that God chooses to reveal to him, if Simon was a unfit successor then God will reveal to jesus to not appoint Simon Peter as a successor after him. Paul exposes himself clearly which is evident, by saying that Simon Peter the successor of Jesus went astray, Simon Peter has the title of being the Prince of the apostles, can a student be greater than his master? Let’s what jesus say...

 

 

John 13:

12When he had finished washing their feet, he returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them. 13“You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Master,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14Now that I, your Master and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet. 15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the One who sent him. 

 

The parable speaks for itself, and also show’s that Princes, masters and teachers should humble themselves like Jesus has presented to his disciples. Simon Peter was humble and obeys God’s Law and revelation. It is clear now that Paul is contradicting himself and lying, and had a issue with God’s Law and revelation. 

 

 

It is clear by now that Paul was a deceiver, a false disciple/apostle, a false dreamer and a murderer. Paul had hatred for Jesus’ message on pure monotheism and adhering to God’s Law. Paul was a enemy of jesus and did not love jesus at all,  if he did he would not claim to be an apostle of Christ and make a fake gospel to support his pagan/ Greek methodology doctrine and kill the followers of Christ and make his own sect to mislead people. If he loved jesus he would obey his successor Simon Peter the Prince of the apostles and not insult him by giving a false accusation.

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6 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

Deuteronomy 13

13 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods”  and let us worship them,” 3 you must You  listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

 

Paul believes and put elements of greek methodology such as “the Father” and “the Son” , The Father is God who dwells in heaven and the Son is the lower God, Paul was a Dualist and Hellenistic Jew convert. He put these Elements in the gospels and obviously his epistles are full of Greek methodology, but God dumb strucks him in one of his epistles.

 

 

Philippians 2:5-7

5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

 

Now in verse 5 Paul is telling the people to have the same mindset as Jesus amongst each other then he continues on in verse by saying 6 “who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” and he go’s in verse 7 by pretty much saying jesus took on a form of a human. 

 

In verse 6 Paul says “Who being very nature God” over here Paul believes Jesus to be God but then as we continue on in verse 6 Paul says “did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage”  Now over here Paul is distinguishing Jesus from God but he also believes jesus was also God beside God but Jesus who is the second God manifested himself in a human form ,as verse 7 shows, so that he is no longer equal to God rather he is limited. 

 

Now this is obviously a heresy and dualism since Jesus is a God beside God, despite jesus manifesting himself in a human form because in nature he is a God beside God except he is a limited God beside God. This is obviously not Monotheism at all and contradicts the Law and the prophets.

Hey!, 

So I see no correlation between the first passage you mention and Paul  This was for O.T. Israelites who again and again encountered false prophets who are called out continually by God's actual prophets. They would prophesy garbage and the people would believe it.  Paul has an actual awake experience with God, not a dream.  He was physically blinded and even the apostles and the church didn't trust him for a while.  After some time even they began to trust him and realize that his testimony was true.  Christianity is always getting accused of having mixed with other religions and culture but the fact is that the two belief systems are not the same and we know that Satan tries to mix the truth all the time and deceive people with appearances.  Just because there may be hints at similarities between beleifs doesn't really mean anything.  Every faith has some similarities and because faiths exist in the world close to each other at times you would expect to see similarities.  

You are right that Paul calls Jesus God and even distinguishes them.  As Christians we distinguish between the persons of the Trinity but believe that they are one being.  You may believe it's dualism if you'd like to, but we don't worship three gods.  Worshipping three Gods would be a heresy against the Christianity and Islam but in our scriptures we see God revealed in one being, three persons.  Much of the message of the Bible is spiritually discerned.  Jesus spoke in parables and many did not understand.  Paul talks about how the message of the cross is foolishness to those who don't believe.  Yet it's a simple message of the love of God who fulfilled true justice by dying for our sins and showed infinite mercy and love by offering us a gift of salvation to all who believe, "not by works so that no one may boast before God."  Paul says we are the people to most be pitied in the world if this message isn't real.  

I really do not have time to touch every verse that you mention, although I am familiar with each one.  Again, I would not hold your position on the meaning of these verses nor do I think it fits in the entire framework or story of scripture.  I think the verses you use are not in context and cherry picked to make a point but even some by themsleves would not be the interpretation mainstream Christianity would have.  I read the arguments but cannot understand the conclusions you make based on what I read in scripture and have studied.  I am aware this happens all the time and that's ok. I observe it in the debates all the time as well. Like I said before, I don't see a reason to try and persuade you in the opposite direction if you have already weighed the evidence from both sides.  Nothing I could tell you would make sense to you.  The Bible demonstrates how no one comes to believe Jesus is God but through the Spirit of God.  God changes a person, not man.  I can see you've thought about this a lot and have read a lot.  If you'd like, I can point you to good resources that can explain what I believe further.  I am confused however, that if you do not hold the New Tesament or the parts of the NT to be the scriptures or the word of God, how can you take a stance for or against what it says?  If parts are corrupted or corrupted people within, than how can you refute something you already believe to be invalid? If anything in scripture was corrupted than I wouldn't even want to deal with any of it because you wouldn't know what was right or wrong.  It would be better to just throw it out.  I believe that all of the OT and NT are intact and true and that message is one flowing message without contradiciton. 

Praying for you! God bless  

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1 hour ago, tdawg626 said:

So I see no correlation between the first passage you mention and Paul

 

 

1 Corinthians 8:6

“6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”

the term “the Father” is attributed to God Himself. Paul says their is one God the Father, that’s it He doesn’t say “the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit” he just says the Father full stop. It is clear that the Father is God not the Father the son the Holy Spirit. 

Ephesians 1:3 

“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” 

Colossians 1:3

“3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

Paul is crystal clearly distinguishing Jesus from God and God is the Father of Jesus, so it is clear that Jesus is not God himself rather he is betrayed by Paul as another god beside God who is His son. See Philippians 2:5-7

Acts 26:12-18

12“On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, a ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15“Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

 

Deuteronomy 13

13 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says, “Let us follow other gods”  and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.”

Paul was dualist who claimed to have dream that Jesus appointed him, Paul clearly contradicts the law and the prophets so he is a false dreamer. 

Deuteronomy 13 is part of the law, jesus came to fulfil it not abolish. 

 

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On 5/17/2020 at 5:44 PM, Northwest said:

@notme

I’ve always felt that the biggest problem with Trinitarian theology is that its emphasis on the incarnation leads to identification with the ego, whether conscious or unconscious.

In this way Christian Trinitarianism actually defeats its supposed purpose, by focusing on how the God loves me and stooped to my level to take away my sin that I am incapable of addressing on my own, so I need to be absolved (or excused) from my sin by God the Son becoming Man and dying in my place.

Notice how Christian Trinitarianism, by promoting the Incarnation, leads not to man seeking God for Who He is, but rather man bringing God down to the level of creation.

Sorry that this comment was so long ago and I'm taking the thread back :confused:

I'm not sure that this is wholely fair.  Each indiviual whatever their faith comes to God as who they are.  I can worship with my family, with my community, as a large group we can pray or sing together before God but ultimatly what ever picture I have of God I can only come as me.

Maybe you have a different idea of the purpose of the Trinity but I think you have diescribed it quite well - It alows The great creator God to engage with his creation intimatly, whether with individuals or with families and comunities, while at the same time maintaining the universe.  It offers an explination of how righteous judgment for rebelion, again whether by individuals or by communities, can be dealt with.  The God who is judge and condems the evil and shameful acts of rebelion, so loves his creation (God so loved THE WORLD that he gave his only Son) that he entered creation and took that punishment himself so that those who recieve that can be free to live, as individuals and as communities, as God intended.

Many of the verses in the New Testament where the English has 'you' is the greek word 'Plural You'.  Jesus came to set up a community.  I'm sorry but I don't get your point.  I community has to be made up of individuals. 

The wonder of the Trinity and the incarnation is it is God who has reviealed it.  It is so beyond anything a human mind could invent that it must ne true.  Not people bringing God down but God in his greatness and love stepping down himself.

Just to share a story about an individual which Jesus told. NT Matthew Chapter 18

12 “What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Edited by Dave follower of The Way
Spelling mistake

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11 hours ago, THREE1THREE said:

Paul believes and put elements of greek methodology such as “the Father” and “the Son” , The Father is God who dwells in heaven and the Son is the lower God, Paul was a Dualist and Hellenistic Jew convert. He put these Elements in the gospels and obviously his epistles are full of Greek methodology, but God dumb strucks him in one of his epistles.

Philippians 2:5-7

5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

 

The ideas of God as Father are not new to Paul.  The idea is found throughout the Old Testament God talks to the Israel Nation as his sons implying Fatherhood (see Hosea 11:1)

God talks to the King of Israel as his son Psalm 2:7I will proclaim the Lord’s decree: He said to me, “You are my son; today I have become your father.

The prophets talked about God's interaction as a father for example Jeremiah 31:9

9 They will come with weeping;


    they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
    on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel’s father,
    and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

God had been revealing his Father heart to people for many milenia before Paul and the Greeks

The son doesn't have to be a lower God.  The Bible clearly teaches that the Son was existing before the incarnation.  He wasn't created but had the same nature as God.  The passage you quote from Philipians is thought by many to be a very early Christian Hymn that Paul didn't write or make up but that he was quoting. Something that was in general use in the Christian community.

Jesus had the very nature of God - He was God himeslf

But didn't grasp hold of his God nature but was prepared to give it up, to humble himself

Notice it says "Being made in human likeness" he was something before and was made, took on the form of, a servant.

What amazing love God shows for us lets look at the passage right through to the end

Philipians chapter 2

(Jesus) though he existed in the form of God
did not regard equality with God
as something to be grasped,
but emptied himself
by taking on the form of a slave,
by looking like other men,
and by sharing in human nature.
He humbled himself,
by becoming obedient to the point of death
—even death on a cross!
As a result God highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow
—in heaven and on earth and under the earth—
11 and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord
to the glory of God the Father

We will all one day bow the knee to Jesus - lets do it now willingly in recognition of his love for us.

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2 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

The ideas of God as Father are not new to Paul.  The idea is found throughout the Old Testament God talks to the Israel Nation as his sons implying Fatherhood (see Hosea 11:1)

Where do you fantasize this false blah-blah?

The idiom expresses the religious immaturity of lsrael when it was in Egypt. Called out of Egypt, "the more l called them the farther away they went from Me (God of Noah -(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).) sacrificing to Baals and burning incense to idols." qutoting Douay-textbook verse Hos 11:2. When you check Young, KJV you get the same meaning.

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6 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Jesus) though he existed in the form of God
did not regard equality with God

Paul is still distinguishing jesus from God. It is clear he was dualist. 

Read 1 Corinthians 8:6

colosians 1:3 

Ephesians 1:3

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7 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

The Bible clearly teaches that the Son was existing before the incarnation. 

It doesn’t, only Paul believed Jesus to be God beside God (which is dualism).  Paul believed the Son became a human while the Father stayed being Himself. 

 

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12 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

the parts of the NT to be the scriptures or the word of God, how can you take a stance for or against what it says?  If parts are corrupted or corrupted people within,

If you read my article on the trinity you would see my answer to your question. I’ll post it here. 

Their are some verses in the gospel according to John which show that Jesus was originally in heaven and then was conceived by saint Mary. But to clear all these contradictions, the oldest gospel is Mark and then Mathew is like Mark with some added words that are pagan and Greek methodology elements and then Luke which perhaps was written by Luke the companion of Paul. Mathew 5:17-20(The Law and the Prophets) is the measuring rod that is to be used when reconstructing the bible and the base is the gospel of Mathew, and the gospel of Mark also helps a lot with reconstructing the bible and also parts of Luke and John. In these four gospels their is truth and when the truth that is in the 4 gospels is combined and put in chronological order the Evangel becomes a reliable book, thus is how the truth within these gospels is intended to be persevered thus only the true sincere followers of Christ will find if they strive hard and use reason, logic and commonsense. Obviously and sadly not many people will find that path they will go astray as jesus prophesied in Mathew 7:13-14 “13Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14.But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to [eternal] life, and only a few find it.” Unfortunately many “Christians” have entered the wide gate which lead to go astray and have pagan beliefs and perhaps also be wicked. The truth that is contained within the 4 gospels must be preached to these lost sheep in order to live a righteous life and fulfil the proper religious obligations to achieve eternal life which is paradise.

 

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8 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13 And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

This just shows that God desires for His servants to enjoy paradise not perish. A person has free will so they are in control of their own destiny. 

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12 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

You are right that Paul calls Jesus God and even distinguishes them.  As Christians we distinguish between the persons of the Trinity but believe that they are one being. 

 

Philippians 2:5-7

5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

 

“being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;”

Paul believes Jesus is God beside God Almighty but Jesus became a man so he is no longer equal to God Almighty. 

 

 1 Corinthians 8:6 “6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”

The term “the Father” is attributed to God Himself nobody else, so it clear that God is not the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit; just the Father.

Ephesians 1:3 “3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

Colossians 1:3 “3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus.

As for the trinity, that fact that you say they are of one essence but three distinct persons then that shows their are three Gods because they are of one ESSENCE but DISTINCT from each other. Or you fall in the world of Modalism where God takes on the mode of being the son and the Holy Spirit and back to the Father or you fall into the world of God being Omniscient,omnipotent and omnipresent and at the exact same time not Omniscient , Omnipotent  and omnipresent in other words limited and unlimited which is absolutely irrational and illogical and contradicts scripture. 

The trinity is no where. 

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On 5/30/2020 at 3:03 AM, hasanhh said:

Where do you fantasize this false blah-blah?

Excuse me?!  I thought Shia Chat was a place for civilised polite discusion.

Though I don't agree with you, I respect you and your opinion.

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 On 5/30/2020 at 7:04 AM, THREE1THREE said:

Paul is still distinguishing jesus from God. It is clear he was dualist. 

No way could Paul have been a dualist.  He was brought up as a orthodox Jew and was a scolar under a famous and respected Jewish teacher of his day.  He was a member of one of the most devout and orthodox sects of Judaism at the time.  See Acts 22:3

Then Paul said: ‘I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.

Paul expands his heritage and training in other places e.g. Philipians 3:4-6

On 5/30/2020 at 8:24 AM, THREE1THREE said:

It doesn’t, only Paul believed Jesus to be God beside God (which is dualism).  Paul believed the Son became a human while the Father stayed being Himself. 

 

The verses you mention are part of longer letters where Paul explains his thoughts about Jesus.

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live

Paul seems to be attributing the same things to both The Father and to Jesus

If we continue to read in Colossians chapter 1 we read

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

This verse whatever else it says about Jesus it clearly states that Jesus was not just in existance before the incarnation (his birth through Mary) but also before the creation of the world.

I think you understand what Christians teach about Jesus and the Father.  You say "Paul believed the Son became a human while the Father stayed being Himself."

Yes the eternal Son humbled and limited himself and became human, while the eternal Father controled the universe.  The Holy Spirit at the same time was involved in mediating God's love and grace to the world.

You make this comment "The term “the Father” is attributed to God Himself nobody else, so it clear that God is not the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit; just the Father. "

Can I ask you a question?  If a man is single and has no offspring would he be a father?  Some people might call him Father out of respect for his age or maturity but in fact he is not a father.

Now God, as you say, is called Father and this is often linked in the New Testament with Jesus being called Son.  If God is truly Father he needs to have a relationship with a being who can be seen as his son.  Likewise a Son needs to have a relationship with a being who will be called his Father.

Now I do not believe any reproductive or sexual conatations in this Father Son relationship.  But for God to be called Father and Son there must have always been a relationship. There could never have been a time when there was no Father and never a time when there was no Son.  Eternally coexisting in complete harmony and unity within the Godhead is Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

On 5/30/2020 at 8:30 AM, THREE1THREE said:

he oldest gospel is Mark and then Mathew is like Mark with some added words that are pagan and Greek methodology elements

Just an aside

You quote the Bible a lot, yet it is clear you don't think it is reliable.  If we say there are parts of the gospels that are pagan, we are left with the question "Which parts?".  Your idea may be different from someone else.  What criteria do you use to discide?  You either take the whole gospel as reliable or reject it all, we do not have the luxury to pick and choose.

I see the Gospels pointing to The God who loved the world so much that he acted in Jesus to open the path for us, his rebelious and forgetful creation, to come back into an intimate relationship with our Father God.

We can argue the points but I wonder if those arguments are a smoke screen to avoid the challenge of the message - are we going to say yes to God's love or not?

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15 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.

That’s expected from a imposter. 

16 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live

Paul is distinguishing God the father from jesus. 1. Jesus is not God 2. This proves my point that Paul is a dualist. 

21 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

The Son is the image of the invisible God,

Deuteronomy 4:15-19 And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. 

Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the heavens, 

the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, likeness of any fish that is in the waters, beneath the earth. 

And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heavens, which the LORD your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them.

25 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Some people might call him Father out of respect for his age or maturity but in fact he is not a father.

No one does that and has no relations to the term “the Father”

i was making a point that, the Father is God not the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit as you claim unless you are Modalist or believe in three God’s. 

The reason why God is called “the Father” in the NT because Paul believes Jesus is the literal son of God. 

Ephesians 1:3

“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

jesus has a God as we can clearly see and the God of Jesus is Jesus’ father aswell. 

Colosians 1:3

3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

It is clear that Paul was a dualist  and you’re desperately avoiding it. 

Jesus himself denies being God in John 10:27-39

Mark 10:17-18 

17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.

jesus questions the questioner for calling him “GOOD teacher”, and says No one is good... except God alone, jesus didn’t want any sort of praise rather he wanted all praise to God. This clearly shows that Jesus is not other wise he wouldn’t question the questioner for calling him “GOOD teacher” and saying “no one is Good except God alone”  these are clear incidents that show jesus is not God at all.

Jews have the same concept of God as the Muslims do, not like the pualine Christians. 

Exodus 20:4 God has no likeness to any of His creation it is emphasised again in Deuteronomy 4:15-19

God does not dwell in heaven otherwise God would be confined and have a form. Rather God is Omnipresent,

2 Chronicles 6:18 But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain You. How much less this temple I have built!

2 Chronicles 2:6 But who is able to build a temple for Him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain Him? Who then am I to build a temple for Him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before Him?

Jews believe In the absolute Oneness and transcendence of God, Deuteronomy 6:4 “Hear O’Israel The Lord our God, The Lord is one” 

Jews believe God does not change from His nature, Malachi 3:6 “I the Lord do not change.”

Jews believe God is unique 

Isaiah 46:5 “With whom will you compare Me or count Me equal ? To whom will you compare Me so we are alike?” Says the Lord”

Isaiah 43:10 “Before there was no God formed, And there will be none after me” 

Isaiah 45:5 “I am the Lord, and there is no other; Beside me there is no God” 

Jews believe God is the creater of the Heavens and the eath alone 

Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone

paul contradicts all of these. 

 

56 minutes ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

we are left with the question "Which parts?".  Your idea may be different from someone else.  What criteria do you use to discide? 

Anything that contradicts the law and the prophets (the unaltered parts) pagan beliefs can be seen from a miles away aswell and also a person needs to use his head think rationally and logically. 

Like i said in my previous posts I believe the Gospel can be at the very least reliable once it is reconstructed. 

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