Jump to content
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!) ×
Guests can now reply in ALL forum topics (No registration required!)
In the Name of God بسم الله
Sign in to follow this  
Dave follower of The Way

You are loved by God

Rate this topic

Recommended Posts

As I was spending time with God today I read these words:

I am writing to all who have been called by God the Father, who loves you and keeps you safe in the care of Jesus Christ. (NT Jude verse 1)

The fact that God has called me and loves me and keeps me safe at this difficult time is a great comfort.

What things in your relationship with God comfort you in trouble?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

What things in your relationship with God comfort you in trouble?

Reading the bible when I was in jail kept me from making a major mistake that I couldn't take back & I take comfort in the OT stories of Israel and the redemptive power of God, but I reject the idea that although God created everything, that he cares about some people more than others.

I also like the act of saying the rosary each night and counting out my prayers on the beads although I oftentimes modify the prayers and the meditations that I count out on the beads (instead of ten hail marys, I'll say the heyschastic prayer ten times... do ten decades instead of five but focus on five major issues in the modern world: mental health, human trafficking, war, the imprisoned, and abortion)

I also like watching lectures or videos about God and religion or simply reading about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/5/2020 at 6:30 PM, GD41586 said:

I take comfort in the OT stories of Israel and the redemptive power of God

Hey it's great that you find reading the Bible is a help.  God has spoken to us through the writen word.  Many people listen to something being read and don't understand it.  To be able to take a word from God and think about it during the day is a great help.  God definately is a living, speaking and loving God who communicates with us intimately.

I've been doing some heyschastic prayer recently.  Meditating on God while thinking about my breathing and posture.  God has really met me during this time.  Maybe you will find this website helpful http://encounteringpeace.com/what-we-believe/

May God continue to meet and encourage you each day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Hey it's great that you find reading the Bible is a help.  God has spoken to us through the writen word.  Many people listen to something being read and don't understand it.  To be able to take a word from God and think about it during the day is a great help.  God definately is a living, speaking and loving God who communicates with us intimately.

I've been doing some heyschastic prayer recently.  Meditating on God while thinking about my breathing and posture.  God has really met me during this time.  Maybe you will find this website helpful http://encounteringpeace.com/what-we-believe/

May God continue to meet and encourage you each day.

See, I am an eastern rite catholic by birth (different from Orthodox Christianity in a lot of little ways and a few major dogmatic catholic beliefs, first and foremost the primacy of the Archbishop of Rome) & a lot of my personally held beliefs tend to err more toward Orthodox Christianity than the Catholic church. However, for the past few years I have developed a very fierce interest in Islam that I'm currently in the process of sorting out (and I'm moving in that direction more and more by the day) & attempting to understand my motivations + reasoning as to how this interest developed along with exactly why Islam appeals to me as someone who has essentially steeped in American culture until the age of 34.

I think the biggest challenge for me is going to be giving up Jesus. I always had this fantasy that if I were to make it to paradise, that Jesus was going to come running to throw his arms around me like the father in the parable of the prodigal son. This is probably due to rejection by my own father at a young age, but that was my hope for the longest time. Recently, my life has been changing in so many extreme & oftentimes frightening ways. As a result, I feel like I am finally getting close to being able to accept who I am & actually be thankful to God for creating me exactly the way he did rather than lamenting that I wasn't intelligent enough to go to university, not talented enough to be a musician or artist, not driven enough to be in business, and generally not interested in anything that one can use to build a life that will gain them the admiration of their peers.

I mean, there's more to it but I was told that I shouldn't be talking about it because "people will think less of you". Not that I care what people think of me. I've spent my whole life trying to care about how I appear to others and all it did was get me to the exact moment in my life that I am at at 7:18pm EST, 5/9/2020 as I type this response out to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, GD41586 said:

I think the biggest challenge for me is going to be giving up Jesus. I always had this fantasy that if I were to make it to paradise, that Jesus was going to come running to throw his arms around me like the father in the parable of the prodigal son. This is probably due to rejection by my own father at a young age, but that was my hope for the longest time.

Hi you don't need to give up Jesus but by accepting Islam (inshaAllah Shia Islam) he will be a prophet of God/ Allah that will return to help Imam Mahdi (aj) to convince Christians that he was a prophet that will reject anyone that recognizes him & his mother as God & Goddess  in judgment day that surly he will welcome & will throw his arms around you & anyone that recognizes him as a prophet warmer than any father inshaAllah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, GD41586 said:

I always had this fantasy that if I were to make it to paradise, that Jesus was going to come running to throw his arms around me like the father in the parable of the prodigal son.

Brother! this is not a fantasy.  This is a promise.  Jesus said (NT John Chapter 6:37) "whoever comes to me I will never drive away."  At the end of a story about the coming of his kingdom Jesus says (NT Matthew Chapter 25:21 and 25) Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’  Jesus is ready to welcome you - not only in the future but NOW - TODAY.  His arms are open - he calls you to join his joy and experience his peace.

12 hours ago, GD41586 said:

I am finally getting close to being able to accept who I am

God always accepts us as we are.  He made you and loves you - you do not have to do anything to win his approval.  There is nothing you can do to make him love you more and there is nothing you can do to make him love you less.  His love for you is infinite.  Please don't go down a road which demands that you have to do things to gain God's aproval or his acceptance on the last day.  Jesus has opened the door - Today you can know for a certainty that he is with you always.  Jesus said to his followers (NT Matthew Chapter 28:20) "Surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Dave follower of The Way said:

Please don't go down a road which demands that you have to do things to gain God's aproval or his acceptance on the last day.

As someone who would be coming out of Christianity, I don't think I'd ever be able to truly believe that I was doing those "things" to gain God's approval, but rather that I would be doing them because I love him. Each act is an offering of my love, as you have to center your intentions for a prayer before you begin. Now as I practice praying, I always make my intention "To honor the Lord because I love him for creating me exactly as I am".

That won't make sense to a lot of people, but I doubt I'll ever be able to not see it that way.

The other things I've struggled with my entire life when it comes to Christianity are:

1. The trinity doctrine which has never appeared in any bible I've read (and I've read the Catholic bibles with the books that the protestants have left out)

2. The fact that Jesus prayed TO God throughout the New Testament. I simply do not believe that he was only doing this to "model proper behavior" to his followers, but I also don't see it as making sense that he would pray to himself

3. The Catholic church's obsession with all but establishing Mary the mother of Jesus as a goddess & going so far to refer to her as a "co-redemptress". The idea that she was married to Joseph but NEVER consummated that marriage or had any other children when the bible refers to Jesus' "brother" & the Church tries to handwave it as "cousin".


That's how I got to where I am at this moment, chasing after Islam.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, GD41586 said:

The other things I've struggled with my entire life when it comes to Christianity are:

HI There - Thank you for your responses. I read your comment under "The Study Qur'an" you are really on an important journey.  In love with Jesus and in love with God.  Yes and God is in love with you.  As you read the Qur'an look out for verses which say God loves you.  Remember Bible verses which talk about God loving us not for what we have done but because his basic being is LOVE.

19 hours ago, GD41586 said:

1. The trinity doctrine

You mention the Trinity.  Yes it is hard to grasp with logic and human mental hard work.  Yes the word is not in the Bible but that doesn't mean the teaching and assumption is not there.  I read this verse this morning Colossians 3

15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

There are references to the Spirit enabling us to worship God, references to Jesus calling him Lord (a term reserved for God) and saying he is the one who should govern your works (a God act) and then God the Father is referred to.

Although the trinity is not mentioned there are many clues here that help us see where the doctrine came from. and this is just one verse at random.

19 hours ago, GD41586 said:

2. The fact that Jesus prayed TO God

The great thing about the trinity is it demonstrates true harmonious relationship without competition or infighting.  God as one complete unity works his plans out through relationship.  When Jesus prays he is just continuing that relationship he has had since before time and creation.  He is not "talking to himself" but communing with his father within the God head.  We all look for relationships and here in the trinity we see how there can be willing obedience without subjection and oppresion.  Jesus shares himself and listens to the Father and the Holy Spirit works to mediate the relationship. - See the story of Jesus Baptism in Matthew 3

16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

I find in knowing that GOD himself came and shared our humanity gives me so much hope and joy - That God gave up from his own being as an example of humility and servanthood in order to provide for you and me direct access into his presence now in this life, gives me a real basis for fulfilled living.

Don't let the trinity be a obstical for you - I believe you will find more difficulty in approaching God without this concept than with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/5/2020 at 5:54 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

What things in your relationship with God comfort you in trouble?

Great question...I have had some moments when I, because of sin that I committed or some type of trouble in my life, have doubted and wondered if God was still with me. I go back to scripture and Christ reminds me that I am his sheep and that I know his voice and that no one can snatch me out of his hands. I also remind myself of how the book of Romana says that nothing can separate me from the love of God and Jesus’ promise in Hebrews to never leave or forsake me. This is what keeps me going: love. When I remember that I am loved and completely forgiven and debt free, this pulls me back up, changes my thought process, and maintains my ability to live in the true freedom Jesus provides. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/10/2020 at 9:06 AM, GD41586 said:

1. The trinity doctrine which has never appeared in any bible I've read (and I've read the Catholic bibles with the books that the protestants have left out)

Hey GD, the trinity doctrine was just that. A doctrine decided upon by the very earliest church, some scholars would say within months of Jesus resurrection, to give a name to a set of beliefs the church already held. One early mention of this in the gospels is in Matthew 28:19. 

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Jesus was continually saying, I am in the Father and the Father is in me. The best place to see this is actually in the Old Testament. One of my favorite is Micah 5 (Another is Isaiah 9)

2 “[c]But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
[d]His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”

Jesus has always existed, from the days of eternity. God was not just sitting in a black void by Himself before the creation of the universe. He was in perfect communion with the Son and the Spirit. The trinity is hard to explain if it is held to one dimension, much less so if you look at it in three dimensions. Much like one cube consists of three separate, co equal dimensions, (L x W x H), could God not exist the same way (Father x Son x Holy Spirit)? Especially consider that we barely understand the three dimensions we live in, how can we understand a Being to who a thousand dimensions are one? 

On 5/10/2020 at 9:06 AM, GD41586 said:

The fact that Jesus prayed TO God throughout the New Testament. I simply do not believe that he was only doing this to "model proper behavior" to his followers, but I also don't see it as making sense that he would pray to himself

And again, Jesus is not the Father. He is the Son. He was not praying to himself but to the Father, through the Holy Spirit, just like we do now.  Paul says in Philippians 2: 5-7

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 

He did not try to hold on to his equality with God but emptied himself. When he was on this earth he was fully man, but that doesn't mean that his divine nature changed.

On 5/10/2020 at 9:06 AM, GD41586 said:

The Catholic church's obsession with all but establishing Mary the mother of Jesus as a goddess & going so far to refer to her as a "co-redemptress". The idea that she was married to Joseph but NEVER consummated that marriage or had any other children when the bible refers to Jesus' "brother" & the Church tries to handwave it as "cousin".

Im with you on this brother. I am Protestant, we do not venerate anyone but the Trinity. God bless you. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/5/2020 at 6:54 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

The fact that God has called me and loves me and keeps me safe at this difficult time is a great comfort.

This implies that those who are not safe are not loved by God. I'm sure that's not what you meant, but that's how it sounds. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, notme said:

This implies that those who are not safe are not loved by God. I'm sure that's not what you meant, but that's how it sounds. 

@notme

I’ve always felt that the biggest problem with Trinitarian theology is that its emphasis on the incarnation leads to identification with the ego, whether conscious or unconscious.

In this way Christian Trinitarianism actually defeats its supposed purpose, by focusing on how the God loves me and stooped to my level to take away my sin that I am incapable of addressing on my own, so I need to be absolved (or excused) from my sin by God the Son becoming Man and dying in my place.

Notice how Christian Trinitarianism, by promoting the Incarnation, leads not to man seeking God for Who He is, but rather man bringing God down to the level of creation.

Edited by Northwest
Proper respect

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/10/2020 at 9:06 AM, GD41586 said:

1. The trinity doctrine which has never appeared in any bible I've read (and I've read the Catholic bibles with the books that the protestants have left out)

Hi!

The books being left out was done by a very careful process, as there were false letters going around and even letters written by people posing to be disciples. Those books in the catholic Bible were not included because certain criteria were not met. You should look into how the Bible was pieced together. It’s very interesting! (I could help you with resources :))

There are times when a label or description is attached to something that is described in the Bible. An example would be free will. We see free will at work in the Bible through decisions made by people and how God reacts to those decisions. We say, see there is free will. It’s similar with the Trinity. The term is not in the Bible and every Christian knows this. The term is one that is used to describe a truth seen in scripture. In all honesty, if there were a better term to describe the relationship we see in God, we could use another word or phrase. Trinity means tri-unity. God revealed who he was in clearer ways as time went on. In the Old Testament believers in God did not completely understand the tri-unity of God. In the New Testament it started to become clearer. In the O.T. we do see glimpses of this. Everyone knew the Father was God, but if they had searched the Old Testament, there were many prophecies about the Messiah, Jesus, who would come. In Isaiah he’s called “Mighty God, everlasting Father,” for example. As we see the relationship between the Father, Son and Spirit in scripture and as we examine what they say, do, act and are described, we see that they are all spoken of as being of the same essence. It’s helpful to make a chart of these things to see it side by side. 

The teachers of Jesus’ day had the same issue -they could not believe that Jesus was God, even though he was saying it and demonstrating it all the time. Now, he does not state this in English or speak in a modern way like we think he should have spoken. Jesus claims he was was God through doing what people knew only God could do, and by forgiving sins, talking about his authority, healing people, being worshipped, and calling himself titles that were reserved only for God. In fact, based on who we know who God is from the Bible, if Jesus was not God, he should have been killed by God for blasphemy.  The Jews knew there was one God, that’s why they were so angry with Jesus for claiming to be God and in fact said he was committing blasphemy. They did not understand the complex being of God.

Hope everyone is having a great day!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Those books in the catholic Bible were not included because certain criteria were not met. You should look into how the Bible was pieced together. It’s very interesting!

The books in the Catholic bible were not included by Luther because they supported the positions of the Catholic church that triggered him. That's really the long and short of it, and if I had access to the paper I wrote about this for World Religion 1000, I could prove that to you. However, that hard drive was long ago frozen with liquid nitro & bopped with a hammer (one ID theft incident will make you take drastic measures in the future).

The New Testament canon wasn't formalized officially until the Council of Rome (382 CE) and were reaffirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393 CE). Luther didn't publish his bible until the sixteenth century (1522 CE). Any pastor, "preacher", or "elder" who tries to tell you otherwise is lying to you to give credibility to the dogmas of his specific christian denomination ("Non-denominational" is still a denomination) re: the canonical process.

Edited by GD41586

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GD41586 said:

The New Testament canon wasn't formalized officially until the Council of Rome (382 CE) and were reaffirmed at the Synod of Hippo (393 CE). Luther didn't publish his bible until the sixteenth century (1522 CE). Any pastor, "preacher", or "elder" who tries to tell you otherwise is lying to you to give credibility to the dogmas of his specific christian denomination ("Non-denominational" is still a denomination) re: the canonical process.

Hi,

I guess my main focus was not going to be on the books not included, but rather the second part of my comment was what I really wanted to focus on. I think looking at the apocrypha, not just at the periods where it was added and taken out, is helpful. I’m not going to disagree with the history of its inclusion or removal but it goes deeper than Rome’s control over things. I do believe that they are helpful books in some ways but not scripture. It’s okay if we disagree. I think it’s actually more of a minor issue in Christianity compared to other things. 

If I needed to share scripture with someone I could also use a Catholic Bible. I’m much more interested in pointing someone to Jesus than the apocrypha. 

I appreciate your comment and your research!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

Hi,

I guess my main focus was not going to be on the books not included, but rather the second part of my comment was what I really wanted to focus on

The part about the trinity or about Jesus? We can focus on either/or. I apologize if I seemed annoyed, I'm not. I just came out of Christianity & I'm still in that period of adjusting and re-learning everything that I thought that I knew for certain regarding God, Jesus, the divine, and the supernatural.

Since I see a lot of Christians posting here today I want to lay it out now that I didn't come to Islam because I wanted to seem progressive or (gag) "woke"; i.e. I'm not one of those cultural-Christian Westerners who embraced Islam because it will shock my parents/authority figures... unless they're going to be shocked by how I am changing as a person (not mocking or making fun at the expense of others anymore, markedly less angry & bitter, not obsessing over politics or Q-anon anymore, so on and so forth). Rather, I didn't so much come to Islam as Islam came to me over the course of roughly twenty years. I tried to run from it, I tried to deny it as a curiosity-- but Islam just would not give up on me. It was calling me from the time I was a teenager and I always sort of knew that I would enter into the fold at some point, I just had no courage and was living life as a "people-pleaser" so I put it off for years and years until I found a translation of the Quran that I could actually comprehend and upon reading the Surahs that mention Jesus, I found things making sense (why did I never change after "Accepting The Lord Jesus Into My Heart©" over 200+ times? Why did I say I was a Christian but was still nasty in my heart and filled with bitterness? Why did I never "feel" anything like the people at churches who raise their hands during the rock music and have tears streaming down their faces? etc) and had explanations for why Christianity had never seemed to "take" with me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, GD41586 said:

I found things making sense (why did I never change after "Accepting The Lord Jesus Into My Heart©" over 200+ times? Why did I say I was a Christian but was still nasty in my heart and filled with bitterness? Why did I never "feel" anything like the people at churches who raise their hands during the rock music and have tears streaming down their faces? etc) and had explanations for why Christianity had never seemed to "take" with me.

Don’t worry I did not take any offense to what you said and didn’t think you were annoyed.

You are probably familiar with the parables of Jesus about the different kinds of soil that seed falls on. Seeds fall on all types of hearts, yet there’s only one type of heart where the seed takes root and produces a good crop or good fruit. So, it seems that you had a similar experience as one of the 3 seeds that did not take root, whatever the reason may be. This, however, does not mean you cannot.

Islam pursuing you does not mean it’s from God. Many things pursue us in this life for many reasons but it does not always mean it’s the right way. In fact, for 10 years I worked on a college campus and had hundreds of discussions with students, many of whom told me their personal stories of something pursuing them for years until they finally gave in or believed, even atheism. Truth pursues us too, but out of many pursuers there is only ones that’s legit. In fact, the whole book of Hebrews is about people with doubts about their faith in Christ and how they were tempted to reject Jesus and revert back to Judaism.

I know many Christians who have felt similar to you with regards to having a wicked heart or feeling no change. There are a variety of possible reasons such as not ever really knowing Jesus, some type of disobedience or sin/s in their lives not repented of, hardships they’re going through, etc. I know that I have struggled many years with depression and ocd and have failed to always live by his Spirit. I have not been the one with a lot of emotions or good feelings, but rather follow Jesus by faith and conviction.  But the more I get to know Jesus, the more I see how wicked my heart is, which leads me more into worship for having saved me. Some of the most holy people in scripture have realized how deep their wickedness was.

I was wondering, however, if you could explain more about how you feel the Quran opened up your eyes or your understanding as opposed to the Bible? How did it you feel it related to you with regards to accepting Christ over and over and not feeling anything in worship?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, tdawg626 said:

So, it seems that you had a similar experience as one of the 3 seeds that did not take root, whatever the reason may be. This, however, does not mean you cannot.

This is a rather presumptuous assumption! 

How can you know that his seed didn't grow into a desire to study Islam to gain a better understanding of God and our relationship with God? You assume too much. Maybe you think your seed grew, but it's a weed not a crop.

(Like stinkin' bamboo! Ugh! )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, notme said:

This is a rather presumptuous assumption! 

How can you know that his seed didn't grow into a desire to study Islam to gain a better understanding of God and our relationship with God? You assume too much. Maybe you think your seed grew, but it's a weed not a crop.

(Like stinkin' bamboo! Ugh! )

This is a passage from the Bible which I know he is familiar with. Jesus said them, not me. According to the Bible a person that produced a good crop stayed in the faith and the other 3 did not. They turned away. He had stated that he left the faith and went to Islam so according to that passage he fell or turned away from the faith. He told me that, though, I didn’t assume it. He also told me he tried and tried but that in a sense, never took root. According to the Bible anyone who departed from the faith after being in it for a time would fall under the category of the three other seeds. I am sure the Quran or other texts of Islam talk about what happens if someone leaves that faith too. 

No need to get upset:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, tdawg626 said:

I was wondering, however, if you could explain more about how you feel the Quran opened up your eyes or your understanding as opposed to the Bible? How did it you feel it related to you with regards to accepting Christ over and over and not feeling anything in worship?

I'll do my best, this won't be as easy as I initially thought: When I read the passages dealing with Jesus, I felt like I actually knew him better than I did reading the Bible. That I was seeing the real, true-to-life Jesus for the first time in my life rather than a figure that was part of some cosmic, blood-atonement sacrifice ritual that in fact, limits what God is capable of by requiring that conditions be fulfilled in order for him to "be able" to forgive sins. I understand the appeal to the Judaic sacrifice ritual considering that Jesus was a Jew, I just never really found that it made sense to me upon being honest with myself.

God doesn't need anything because he simply is & it's been my experience through 33 years of Christianity that the major dogma in protestantism is that "God can't forgive people unless certain conditions are met, and the condition that God needed to fulfill in order to forgive is that he had to become a man (a "fully-God, fully-human" man at that) and die in a specific way, fulfilling very specific conditions in order to be able to forgive mankind's sins. Not just the sins of commission or omission mind you, but the "sin" of existing after two people at the dawn of earth disobeyed Him.

Yes, I reject the idea of original sin as well. I believe that it was a dogmatic escape hatch that was added in so that the church would have a go-to answer for people who say "I have kept the law to the letter" in order to create a need for the church and the services it provides for every human being on the planet (or at least in Europe). For God to be God, he must be the prime source and center of justice as a concept, so therefore he wouldn't send people to "everlasting torture with no hope of escape" based on the actions of two people so far removed from the individual he is judging. (Yes, I believe that punishment in the afterlife is temporary... apparently many Christians did too, as the doctrine of purgatory was a big thing for centuries).

It would be easier if I could just have you peer inside my mind and understand the thought process I have wrestled with since I was a child rather than attempting to explain it myself, because it goes pretty deep and there is so much to cover.

Also, the entirety of evangelicalism didn't really help steer me away from Islam either; particularly due to the existence of over thirty thousand different denominations that are all battling one another to put bodies in the seats that can be asked for 10% of their weekly income & told that they are "sinning" by not giving it, thus providing a need for the church & ensuring that they get the money they believe themselves to be entitled to so that they too can live the Standard American Life of chasing material possessions and showing them off on social media while they pretend to care about the communities surrounding them (Amazing how churches are tax-exempt in America, have plenty of zeroes in their bank accounts, but can never seem to use that money to make a dent in poverty, drug abuse, and the nauseatingly perverse "hook-up culture" that teaches Americans 40 & under to worship sexuality as their god.

I mean, this is an entire subset of Western culture that has largely lost the power to influence society & has cynically decided to keep "rolling with it" because they can at least continue to make a new bible translation every year that will teach exactly what the latest hip denomination with John Piper approval has decided that it wants to emphasize every Wednesday night & Sunday morning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

According to the Bible anyone who departed from the faith after being in it for a time would fall under the category of the three other seeds. I am sure the Quran or other texts of Islam talk about what happens if someone leaves that faith too. 

I am quite familiar with the Bible. You don't need to explain the parable again. In fact, reading the Bible was what drove me away from Christianity in the first place. 

When did Jesus (peace be upon him) say that a person who believes in one God is a disbeliever and/or had abandoned the true faith? (And more importantly, how many years after his death was that, if it exists, written down and by whom?)

I don't know how much you know about Islam. We believe that Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was a prophet of God, born of a sinless virgin mother, spoke and taught at a young age, and was the vessel for many medical miracles. We do not believe Jesus is God - there is only one God. Jesus also believed in the one true God, and not that he was a god himself. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, notme said:

I am quite familiar with the Bible. You don't need to explain the parable again. In fact, reading the Bible was what drove me away from Christianity in the first place. 

When did Jesus (peace be upon him) say that a person who believes in one God is a disbeliever and/or had abandoned the true faith? (And more importantly, how many years after his death was that, if it exists, written down and by whom?)

I don't know how much you know about Islam. We believe that Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was a prophet of God, born of a sinless virgin mother, spoke and taught at a young age, and was the vessel for many medical miracles. We do not believe Jesus is God - there is only one God. Jesus also believed in the one true God, and not that he was a god himself.

Notme,

Good evening!

Here is the link to the passage I was referring to in Matthew. If you’d like to read it (whatever version you prefer) I think it would be better for you than for me to explain it again. The text speaks better for itself anyway. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.biblegateway.com/passage/%3fsearch=Matthew%2b13&version=NIV&interface=amp

I’m not sure what you are are referring to about Jesus stating that a person is an unbeliever if they believe in one God? If you are referring to the parable, then it’s from Matthew, and happened before Jesus’ death and resurrection. But as for Christians, we believe in one God. 

I don’t know everything about Islam, but I am familiar with what you wrote among other things. I’m sure you’re aware that we both agree on everything except the point on Jesus not being God or divine. 

I am also sorry to hear that the Bible drove you away from Christianity. In my experience I have never read anything so full of life, peace and joy. 
 

Would you be willing to share what made you feel like that?

Hope you have a great night or day? (Not sure where you’re at lol)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

I am also sorry to hear that the Bible drove you away from Christianity. In my experience I have never read anything so full of life, peace and joy.

I don't want to speak for @notme but I don't think he means that the Bible is a bad library of books, but that actually sitting down and reading what they really say has brought him to Islam. That's been my experience and that of countless others no doubt. We actually believe that Isa (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  [Jesus] is going to return on the day of judgment with the last Imam.

We aren't insulting the bible. Far from it. We're just those who have read the bible without any presuppositions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, GD41586 said:

We actually believe that Isa (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  [Jesus] is going to return on the day of judgment with the last Imam.

Hi/Salam it's just a little correction : we believe that "  Isa (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  [Jesus] is going to return before Judgment  with the last Imam. To fill earth with justice after it filled with injustice that  Isa (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  [Jesus] will die after his  when still last Imam is alive as final proof that he wasn't a God or his son either his mother wasn't a Goddess that three of them will be in judgment day beside each other .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

I am sure the Quran or other texts of Islam talk about what happens if someone leaves that faith too. 

Hi in Quran says that this person is a person that plants seeds on stone that with any hard rain his/her work will perish or like a stupid woman that destroys her hard work.

 And be not like a woman who breaks into untwisted strands the yarn which she has spun, after it has become strong. Nor take your oaths to practise deception between yourselves, lest one party should be more numerous than another: for Allah will test you by this; and on the Day of Judgment He will certainly make clear to you (the truth of) that wherein ye disagree. (92)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.yusufali/16:92

 O ye who believe! cancel not your charity by reminders of your generosity or by injury,- like those who spend their substance to be seen of men, but believe neither in Allah nor in the Last Day. They are in parable like a hard, barren rock, on which is a little soil: on it falls heavy rain, which leaves it (Just) a bare stone. They will be able to do nothing with aught they have earned. And Allah guideth not those who reject faith. (264)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.yusufali/2:264

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, notme said:

I am quite familiar with the Bible. You don't need to explain the parable again. In fact, reading the Bible was what drove me away from Christianity in the first place. 

When did Jesus (peace be upon him) say that a person who believes in one God is a disbeliever and/or had abandoned the true faith? (And more importantly, how many years after his death was that, if it exists, written down and by whom?)

I don't know how much you know about Islam. We believe that Jesus ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was a prophet of God, born of a sinless virgin mother, spoke and taught at a young age, and was the vessel for many medical miracles. We do not believe Jesus is God - there is only one God. Jesus also believed in the one true God, and not that he was a god himself. 

That's a sad reality I've seen more than once, but it's confused. You ask, "When did Jesus say..." and the fact is, He didn't, religion did. Kids of Christians are taught how to believe before they can read so they read it as they have been taught to believe. If you can take all the dogma and bias out of a read you will see it in a different light. The Bible doesn't teach "Christianity", it teaches righteousness.


I can relate so well with GD41586, I had the same concerns. Nice to meet another black sheep, lol.  I stayed Christian but left Christianity. I had years of visiting many churches, same, same, Calvinism, but always something made each one some kinda special better. The pride of thinking you know God better than anybody else really got to me. I caused a division in my home church, they had to squelch me quick. After a couple 4 on 1s, and a private interrogation it was decided I was going to the wrong church. It wasn't a hard choice. I believe those who are however indoctrinated will be saved by their faith, not their religion, which leads to your other question...

Was Jesus a Christian? No. He was a Prophet of particular lineage...according to the order of Melchizedek. I don't have that all straightened out yet but Christianity was first used as a derogatory term for believers. Again, limited information but seems it started in Antioch, aimed at those who followed the disciples. Christianity evolved from there. At first, the early churches would incorporate some of their previous beliefs into their practices which separated them, but as you know there's only one way to God, and every individual denomination has it, the rest might but it's doubtful. 

Arguments went on until Emperor Constantine decided to fix it.. 7 years of arguments later they decided Jesus was God. Some 400 years later they got together and decided the Holy Spirit was also God. Along with no reference to Jesus being God, there is also no reference to the Spirit being God. It took 700+ years to design the doctrine. Therefore, religions are man made and heavily influenced by man made god laws.

On 5/5/2020 at 4:54 AM, Dave follower of The Way said:

What things in your relationship with God comfort you in trouble?

When I was at my worst, God intervened and prevented me from a very serious injury, and told me to move on. (I had much work to do). I reflect on that daily so I don't really need much assurance or encouragement. Not exactly like getting knocked off a horse and blinded but I spent as many days dealing with my own darkness.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi/Salam it's just a little correction : we believe that "  Isa (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  [Jesus] is going to return before Judgment  with the last Imam. To fill earth with justice after it filled with injustice that  Isa (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)  [Jesus] will die after his  when still last Imam is alive as final proof that he wasn't a God or his son either his mother wasn't a Goddess that three of them will be in judgment day beside each other .

Thanks for the correction, Ash! I'm still operating in Christian terms and I'm not terribly familiar with the Day of Judgment/Islamic Eschatology yet, so your help is very much appreciated. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, tdawg626 said:

I am also sorry to hear that the Bible drove you away from Christianity. In my experience I have never read anything so full of life, peace and joy. 

The Bible contains much wisdom. It is comprised of 66 books, complied over hundreds, maybe a thousand years. It lacks internal consistency. It can't all be right. 

For example, the Bible says both:

- Each person is accountable only for his own sins, no man can bear the sin of another, and,

- The sins of the father are passed down through the seventh generation of descendants. 

Also, clearly you're unfamiliar with the Old Testament. Do you even know what god allegedly told the conquering nomadic tribe of Joshua to do? It was definitely not peace and joy. It was horrific and evil. 

Definitely the Bible contains some truth, some valuable insight. Everyone should be familiar with it, especially those of us who live in Christian or Jewish dominated societies. But if you disregard the clear political additions, get past the violence and injustice by "god's chosen ones", and read to learn, maybe it will lead you to Islam. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

This is my very own article which I wrote refuting the trinity, 

 

The refute of the Trinity

 

 

Many trinitarians claim that they believe in one God, but can not explain the doctrine of trinity since it limits God or becomes irrational, in one why or another it does not make sense nor is it supported by scripture at all. 

 

The doctrine of the trinity is believed to be that God The Father exists in The Son and The Holy Spirit. They are 3 distinct persons that are of one essence( or substance) and are equal persons that are co-eternal but are one.

 

Some “trinitarians” believe that God the Father  takes on three modes, He takes on  the Son and The Holy Spirit and also returns back to being God the Father. 

 

These “trinitarians” are not regarded as trinitarians despite their claim of saying they are trinitarian, in reality, theologically they are not trinitarian rather they are modalists. 

 

 

Does the Law of Moses recognise the trinity? Do the unaltered scribes and book of the prophets recognise the trinity ? 

 

 

Deuteronomy 4:15-19 And you shall watch yourselves very well, for you did not see any form on the day that the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire. 

 

Lest you become corrupt and make for yourselves a graven image, the representation of any form, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the heavens, 

the likeness of anything that crawls on the ground, likeness of any fish that is in the waters, beneath the earth. 

 

And lest you lift up your eyes to heaven, and see the sun, and the moon, and the stars, all the host of heavens, which the LORD your God assigned to all peoples under the entire heaven, and be drawn away to prostrate yourselves before them and worship them. 

 

Exodus 20:2-5

“I am the Lord, your God, who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the houses of bondage. You shall have no other gods upon My face. 

 

You shall not make for yourselves a graven image or any likeness which is in the heavens above, which is on the earth below, or which is in the water beneath the earth. 

 

You shall neither prostrate yourself before them nor worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a zealous God, who visits the iniquity of the father’s upon the sons, upon the third and the fourth generation of those who hate Me...

 

“There is no one like The Lord our God” -exodus 8:10

 

“The Lord He is God; there is none other besides Him” -Deuteronomy 4:35

 

“The Lord He is God; in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other” -Deuteronomy 4:39 

 

“See now that I, I am He, And there is no God besides me” -Deuteronomy 32:39

 

“Hear O’Israel The Lord our God, The Lord is one” -Deuteronomy 6:4

 

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

 

Malachi 3:6 For I the Lord do not change

 

Isaiah 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone

 

2 Chronicles 6:18 But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

 

2 Chronicles 2:6 But who is able to build a temple for Him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain Him? Who then am I to build a temple for Him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before Him?

 

1 Chronicles 17:20 “O Lord, there is none like You, and there is no god beside You according to all that we have heard with our ears.”

 

“You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth” -2Kings 19:15

 

“O Lord, there is none like You, Nor is there any God besides You” - 1 chronicles 17:20

 

“You are great, O Lord God; for there is non like You, Nor there is any God beside You” -2 Samuel 7:22

 

“The Lord is God there is no else” -1 King 8:60

 

“You are the God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth” -2Kings 19:15

 

“You alone, Lord, is God” Isaiah 37:20

 

Before there was no God formed, And there will be none after me” -Isaiah 43:10

 

“I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides me” - Isaiah 44:6

 

“ I am the Lord, and there is no other; Beside me there is no God” Isaiah 45:5 

 

“Surely God is with you and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14

 

“Is it not I, The Lord? And there is No other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior,There is none except Me” Isaiah 45:21

 

“I am God, and there’s no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9 

 

Isaiah 40:25 “To whom will you compare Me? Or is my equal? Says the Holy One.

 

Isaiah 40:18 To whom will you liken God? To what image will you compare Him?

 

Isaiah 46:5 “With whom will you compare Me or count Me equal ? To whom will you compare Me so we are alike?” Says the Lord”

 

Isaiah 45:6

In order that they know from the shining of the sun and from the west that there is no one besides Me; I am Lord and there is no other. 

 

 

The Law and the prophets make it clear that God is one wholly, and their no other god next to God and He is omnipresent (everywhere). 

 

Jews and the prophets believe God is one Wholly and He is omnipresent, omnipotent, the All knowing, the All Seeing, transcendent, He is out of time and space, He is not confined in a place and has no abode and their is no other god next to Him and no is like Him.

 

Trinitarians say that God is a spirit, this teaching is from a pagan called tertullian. “Under the influence of Stoic philosophy, Tertullian believes that all real things are material. God is a spirit, but a spirit is a material thing made out of a finer sort of matter.” ‘History of Trinitarian doctrines, stanford Encyclopedia of philosophy’. He(Tertullian) believed that God is a spirit, this contradicts the Law and the prophets. The Law makes it clear that God is not a spirit and has no form, nor does God have a spirit like humans do. If God was a spirit(I.e an angelic figure) then he would be limited, since He will be no longer the All-seeing, nor omnipresent nor omnipotent and is no longer Transcendent since humans can see spirits(angels) and no longer unique since he is like a spirit which contradicts the Law. If God was a spirit like our spirit which we have, then He would be very limited aswell and also makes God like human beings which makes us Gods going by tertullian’s pagan teaching since God is a spirit like our spirit which then contradicts the Law and the prophets. 

 

Trinitarians say that God exists in The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit. They are three distinct persons who are of the same essence( or substance). Heres the first problem, if the Son and the Holy Spirit share the same essence(or substance) as God the father, then they are also a God beside God the Father since they are of one essence(or substance) and distinct persons. How many God’s do we have now... three or one ? The second problem, other trinitarians say God the father exists in the Son and the Holy Spirit and the Father at the exact same time, the problem arises then if God the Father is the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Father at the same time then God is omnipresent and at the exact same time not omnipresent , and omnipotent and at the exact same time not omnipotent, and All-Seeing and the exact same time not All-seeing, And Transcendent and at exact same time not Transcendent, limited and unlimited at the exact same time. That’s absolutely irrational and illogical. 

 

 3. trinitarians say that, God; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons who are of the same essence(or substance) but are one. In the 2nd paragraph two of the trinitarian philosophies have been refuted. Now we know that the Holy Spirit and the Son are really limited and have a form and an abode since they are obviously physical beings, that which has these attributes are not to be worshipped nor worthy of worship. Some trinitarians hint out or imply that The Father, the Son and Holy Spirit together make a powerful team called “God” which implies a one triune God. Now here’s the issue, the fact that the Father is God, 1 Corinthians 8:6 “6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”, this shows that their is an contradiction to this trinitarian philosophy and also shows that God is limited which then nullifies God’s omnipotence and also shows that their are other lower gods beside God. This as clearly shown contradicts the Law and the Prophets. 

 

 

4. Trinitarians have came up with many new philosophies to explain the trinity which are still irrational and illogical, some trinitarians say that, God is three persons in one being, now the many issues rise with this philosophy. The first one is we have to ask the question is what is the name “the Father” attributed to ? Many times you hear the trinitarians call God “the Father” which is one of God’s name. And who is “the Father” ?  1 Corinthians 8:6 “6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”. Now 1 Corinthians 8:6 makes it clear that “the Father” is God Himself, the name “the Father” is attributed to God and is not a different entity rather the Father IS that one being, Paul calls that being who is the necessary existence who is also called many names, “the Father”. God is a being but a completely unique being which is transcendent, no one knows God’s essence, it is through God’s creation we get to know Him and find Him. The heavens and the earth are a reflection of some of God’s attributes just like a mirror thus through His creation we get to know Him and believe in Him.  Saying the father, the son and the Holy Spirit is three persons in one being is very problematic since we now know that the Father is God who is a unique being, this new trinitarian philosophy believes the Father is a different entity from this other being(which is God) that the trinitarians brought in, the fact that the trinitarians say that the Father, who is God Himself, is in that being( i.e God) shows that their are two God’s since the Father is God and they are putting the Father in that strange being(God). What the trinitarians are doing is they are shifting between modalism and having 3 (or maybe 4 in this new philosophy) God’s thus they are stuck in the middle. The trinity is, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are of one essence who are distinct persons that are co-eternal but are one. If the The Son and the Holy Spirit share the same essence with the Father, who is God, then they are also God’s beside God and the fact they are eternal also makes them Gods beside God since God is eternal. 

 

If then we go by this new philosophy which the trinitarians brought up which is, the father, the son and the Holy Spirit are three persons in one being. That philosophy is Implying that these three persons are part of God’s essence Or it can also imply that God takes on the form of the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit in other words God takes on three modes which is modalism.  Now if the three persons are part of God’s essence then their is a big issue, we now know that the Father is God ( 1 Corinthians 8:6), if the Father is God then their are two God’s. One God, the father, which is part of the  being’s(i.e God's) essence and also the Son and the Holy Spirit is part of that strange being’s essence aswell. This is blaspheming God and limiting Him in many ways. If the Son and the Holy Spirit is part of God’s essence then this is limiting God. The Holy Spirit is divided in to two and they are both completely different things. One it is a title to angel Gabriel and the other it is God’s gift of power to strengthen ( strengthening godly people and people appointed by Him). So if they say part of God is the Holy Spirit, meaning God’s power, then that’s irrational since that’s God’s ability not nature. And if it’s Gabriel then that’s also irrational since angels are also limited beings just like human beings and also God would not be unique. Like wise the Son cannot be part of God’s essence since a human is also very limited and God would not be unique, Numbers 23:19 - “God is not a man, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?” And also the fact that this new trinitarian philosophy implies that the Son and the Holy Spirit are part of God’s essence shows that God is made out of three parts which is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit which then nullifies God being the necessary existence (I.e Uncreated) or either God is limited and unlimited at the exact same time (which is absolutely irrational and illogical) or God takes on three modes (which also limits God and brings other big issues considering this new philosophy since it believes the Father ,who is God, is a different entity to the “being”) or their are three God’s (which is clearly polytheism) or the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit make up a team called “God” (which rises a lot of conflicts and limits God). In one way or another the trinity is irrational and illogical an cannot be explained because it’s illogical and irrational! If you think you got it right you didn’t, that’s why some call it a “mystery”. 

 

 

Part 1. Some trinitarians try to explain the trinity in a way that does not lead to modalism or 3 Gods or even 4 God’s here’s how some trinitarians try to explain the trinity, “The trinity consists of three personalities of God which are united in essence and being. The three persons of the Godhead are distinct in function and action, but yet, they share a common essential nature and existence. Thus, while the Father is not the Son and the Holy Spirit, being distinct personalities of the Godhead, they yet share the common essence of God but are not understood by Christians to be three seperate Gods” 

 

Here’s the first issue we get into when we read this explanation, “the trinity consists of three personalities of God which are united in essence and being.” This part of the explanation is showing modalism since the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit  are the personalities of God. If they are the personalities of God then God is taking the form of the Father, the son, and Holy Spirit, which is modalism in other words God is taking three modes. Then it further more the explanation says “which are united in essence and being”. We now know that the Father is God himself( 1 Corinthians 8:6) , the name “the Father” is attributed to God it’s not a personality of God which God takes on (i.e switches to) rather its His name. The fact that  the Son and the Holy Spirit share (I.e are united in) the essence and being with the Father then they are also Gods since they share the same ESSENCE and BEING with the Father who is God and are DISTINCT. This part of the explanation is switching between modalism and having 3 Gods and it is not being consistent. Let’s read further more of this explanation, “The three persons of the Godhead are distinct in function and action, but yet, they share a common essential nature and existence. Thus, while the Father is not the son and the Holy Spirit, being distinct personalities of the Godhead, they yet share the common essence of God but are not understood by Christians to be three seperate Gods”. Here are the first two issues bump into again, this explanation is switching between Modalism and having three God’s or maybe even four. The fact that they share the same essence with God and the same existence makes them Gods and the fact they say the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons of the Godhead and they also claim that they share the same essence with God makes them Gods beside God so that’s 4 Gods now, then the explanation starts contradicting itself by switching to Modalism and also perhaps God being limited and unlimited at the exact same time which is irrational and illogical, by saying “Thus, while the Father is not the Son and the Holy Spirit, being distinct personalities of the Godhead, they yet share the common essence of God but are not understood by Christians to be three seperate Gods”. Again the fact that they share essence with the God makes them Gods aswell and If God exists in the three personalities then God is limited and unlimited at the exact same time which is irrational and illogical and has been refuted refer back to my 2nd paragraph, and also it’s switching to Modalism and back to having three or perhaps 4 God’s, the explanation is not consistent and it either leans to Modalism or having three or 4 God’s. Also the fact that in the whole explanation it includes, “the trinity consists of three personalities of God which are united in essence and being.” Shows that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit share the same essence and being (keeping in mind that according to this trinitarian philosophy the Father is not God himself rather it’s a personality) shows a lot of contradiction, the Holy Spirit is not the Son so it doesn’t share the same essence as the Son and the Holy Spirit is not the Father so it doesn’t share the same essene with the Father and the Son is not the Holy Spirit so it doesn’t share the same essence with the Holy Spirit and the Son is not the Father so the Son does not share the same essence with the Father and the Father is not the Son so the Father  doesn’t share the same essence with the the Son and the Father is not the Holy Spirit so the Father doesn’t share the same essence with the Holy Spirit.  If they all share the same essence then who’s essence are they sharing? Is it the Son, the Father or the Holy Spirit?  Or they sharing each others essence?-meaning the Father and the Holy Spirit share the same essence as the Son, and the Father and the Son share the same essence as the Holy Spirit, and the Father and the Holy Spirit share the same essence as the Son, and the Son and the Holy Spirit share the same essence as the Father. If that is the case that means the Holy Spirit is God since it shares essence with the Father( 1 Corinthians 8:6) and it’s also the Son(jesus) and it’s also itself. Same concept as illustrated is like wise with the Son and the Father. This is also irrational and also shows that their are three God’s who take on modes of each other. This explanation obviously and clearly contradicts the Law and the prophets. 

 

Part 2. Some trinitarians try to explain the trinity through a parable but end up switching between having three Gods and Modalism thus it is not consistent. Here’s a explanation of the trinity from a trinitarian.

 

“ imagine, if you will, a great river. Our river flows along its course until it reaches a certain point where we cut two additional channels, and the water now flows into all three. One channel leads to a hydroelectric dam, where the water cascades and electricity is generated. The second channel flows into a depression creating a lake where we can fish, swim, and otherwise recreate ourselves. The third channel is used to float logs to a downstream sawmill. After these three channels find their use, they are directed back together, uniting, and continuing on downstream. Though each of these three channels is put to a different use (distinct personality, if you will) they all retain the same essence of being water from this particular river(having the proportions of dissolved chemicals, oxygen content and etc.) The water in any one channel is the same as the other two (but not necessarily very same as water from some other river in some other channel). They share the same nature and reality, though each find differing uses, following differing paths, etc. This is crude picture of the Godhead, with the three personalities of God sharing the same being and essence, Yet God manifesting Himself in three distinct ways to interact with mankind according to His purposes.”

 

In order to go in completely depth of this parable we first need to understand God properly (i.e the concept of God) so here’s explanation of the proper concept of God. 

 

Their is only one God meaning one Wholly. 

 Deuteronomy 6:4 reads in Hebrew “shema Yisroel Adonai eloheinu Adonai echad” “Hear O’Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one”. God is omnipresent (I.e everywhere) and His omnipotent, omniscient and has no form (Deuteronomy 4:12, 4:15-19, exodus Exodus 20:2-5, Numbers 23:19), He has no abode,  2 chronicles 6:18 “But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!”.

2 chronicles 2:6 “ But who is able to build a temple for Him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain Him? Who then am I to build a temple for Him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before Him?”. And their is no one like God and and it blasphemy to give God earthly,  human or animal attributes or any attributes of His creation an example is having a son or adopting one otherwise God would not be unique.  

 

“I am God, and there’s no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me” Isaiah 46:9 

 

Isaiah 40:25 “To whom will you compare Me? Or is my equal? Says the Holy One.

 

Isaiah 40:18 To whom will you liken God? To what image will you compare Him?

 

Isaiah 46:5 “With whom will you compare Me or count Me equal ? To whom will you compare Me so we are alike?” Says the Lord”

 

Malachi 3:6 For I the Lord do not change

 

“Before there was no God formed, And there will be none after me” -Isaiah 43:10

 

Isaiah 44:6-8 “So said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts, "I am first and I am last, and besides Me there is no God. 

 

And who will call [that he is] like Me and will tell it and arrange it for Me, since My placing the ancient people, and the signs and those that will come, let them tell for themselves.

 

Fear not and be not dismayed; did I not let you hear it from then, and I told [it] and you are My witnesses; is there a God beside Me? And there is no rock I did not know.”

 

1 Chronicles 17:20 “O Lord, there is none like You, and there is no god beside You according to all that we have heard with our ears.”

 

Isaiah 44:24 “Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone”

 

 

God is outside of time and space and He is transcendent and the All-seeing and the All-hearing and this world is a reflection of   Him (i.e some of his attributes) just like a mirror. 

 

Now that we know true concept of God which Judaism believes in and jesus came to confirm(Mathew 5:17-20), let’s examine the parable that has been given by a trinitarian.  Here is the first issue we bump into in the parable,  “ imagine, if you will, a great river. Our river flows along its course until it reaches a certain point where we cut two additional channels, and the water now flows into all three.”  Now the river is representing God(whom is called the Father) and the addition two channels are representing the Son and the Holy Spirit.  Now In the beginning the additional channels did not exists their was only one channel the two were added later on. Now this is blasphemy since it’s implying that God is limited and unlimited at the same time and that God takes on the form of the Son and the Holy Spirit and God is himself at exact time which is Modalism and also showing that God is limited and unlimited as the exact same time, and also that two other Gods were created which contradicts Isaiah 43:10. This is simply blasphemy and has been refuted. Let’s read further more in this parable,  “One channel leads to a hydroelectric dam, where the water cascades and electricity is generated. The second channel flows into a depression creating a lake where we can fish, swim, and otherwise recreate ourselves. The third channel is used to float logs to a downstream sawmill. After these three channels find their use, they are directed back together, uniting, and continuing on downstream. Though each of these three channels is put to a different use (distinct personality, if you will) they all retain the same essence of being water from this particular river(having the proportions of dissolved chemicals, oxygen content and etc.) The water in any one channel is the same as the other two (but not necessarily very same as water from some other river in some other channel). They share the same nature and reality, though each find differing uses, following differing paths, etc.” 

 

Now this part of the parable shows that the Son and The Holy Spirit share the same essence with the first channel(which is the Father) and also the Holy Spirit and the Son and the Father share each other’s essence since the parable mentions “The water in any one channel is the same as the other two (but not necessarily very same as water from some other river in some other channel). They share the same nature and reality, though each find differing uses, following differing paths, etc.”. Further illustration, meaning the Father and the Holy Spirit share the same essence as the Son, and the Father and the Son share the same essence as the Holy Spirit, and the Father and the Holy Spirit share the same essence as the Son, and the Son and the Holy Spirit share the same essence as the Father. If that is the case that means the Holy Spirit is God since it shares essence with the Father( 1 Corinthians 8:6) and it’s also the Son(jesus) and it’s also itself. Same concept as illustrated is like wise with the son and the Father. This is also irrational and also shows that their are three Gods who take on modes of each other. This part of the parable clearly contradicts the Law and the prophets. Lets read further more on this parable, “This is crude picture of the Godhead, with the three personalities of God sharing the same being and essence, Yet God manifesting Himself in three distinct ways to interact with mankind according to His purposes.”

 Now we’re back to Modalism and "the Father” is seen as a personality not the name of God, we know that the Son is jesus and the Holy Spirit is divided into two, one being the gift of God to strengthen and the other is a title of angel Gabriel. And “the Father"  is the father of Christ meaning that God is the father of jesus and also He is the Son(Jesus) and also the Holy Spirit, meaning God manifests Himself in these three personalities which is Modalism. 

No matter how hard trinitarians try to explain the trinity in one way or another it blasphemes God and contradicts the law and the prophets. It either leans to Modalism or having three Gods or maybe even four. The parable is clearly inconsistent it switches between Modalism and three Gods or even four. 

 

Part 3. Other trinitarians try to explain the trinity by using an egg and as a parable by saying, “the egg consists of three things, the shell, the egg white and the yolk. These share the same essence and are one.” Now the shell is not the egg white and is completely different to the egg white and likewise it’s not the Yolk and completely different to yolk and the egg white is completely different to the shell and the yolk and is not the yolk or the shell, and the yolk is completely different to the shell and the egg white  and is not shell and the egg white. These three things do not share the same essence which leads to the theology that teaches God is made up of three parts which nullifies God being the necessary existence (i.e uncreated). And further more leads to theology of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit makes up a team called “God” I’ve already refuted these two theology’s in my 3rd paragraph and 4th paragraph. 

 

 

Now that the doctrine of the trinity has been refuted, trinitarians will try to take words, idioms, verses and metaphors out of context to support the doctrine of trinity although we have proved the doctrine of the trinity irrational nevertheless we’re going examine some of the deceptions that the trinitarians try to do to other people to support the doctrine of the trinity and try to convince them about the trinity, the trinitarians say that the Shema is complex unity and not absolute one alone and no other. They make this claim because the word “Echad”, which means “one” in Hebrew the same way “one” means “one” in English, is a complex unity by quoting some verses that doesn’t use the word “Echad” in a literal sense rather in complex unity such as Genesis 2:24 “Therefore, a man shall leave his father and his mother, and cleave to his wife, and they shall become one(Echad) flesh.” Now over here obviously the word “Echad” is not used in the literal sense rather it’s a complex unity, so the word “Echad” in the shema is a complex unity hence the trinity. Now the these trinitarians don’t show you the verses were the word “Echad” is used the proper way which is absolute one and no other. So they would perhaps convince the ignorant the word “Echad” is a complex unity. But the word “Echad” is all over the bible sometimes it’s used in a complex unity and some times it’s used in a literal sense which is its actual form and meaning, absolute one and no other, to understand the word “Echad” you have to look at the context, weather it’s being used in a complex unity or being used in a literal sense which is its actual form and meaning. Here is a example of two verses that use the word “Echad” in its literal sense, which is its actual form and meaning. 

 

Deuteronomy 17:6 “By the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall the one liable to death be put to death; he shall not be put to death by the mouth of one(Echad) witness.” 

 

Deuteronomy 19:15 “One(Echad) witness shall not rise up against any person for any iniquity or for any sin, regarding any sin that he will sin. By the mouth of two witnesses, or by the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be confirmed.”

 

As clearly shown the word “Echad” is not a complex unity in these verses rather it is used in its actual form and meaning, which is absolute one and no other. So when the word “Echad” is used in a complex unity a person must read it in context to understand what meaning is implied in the word “Echad”. Now in the shema it reads, Shema(Hear) Yisroel (O’Israel) Adonai(the Lord) Eloheinu( our God) Adonai(the Lord) Echad (is one). No where does the shema show the word “Echad” is used in a complex unity sense rather it’s clear that the word “Echad” is used in its actual form and meaning, which is absolute one, one Wholly, one and no other, that’s as clear as you can get.  If the shema used the word “Echad” in a complex unity sense then the Shema should say, “Hear O’Israel the Lord the Father, and the son and the Holy Spirit our God the Lord is one(Echad)” Or “Hear O’Israel the Lord our God the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit is one(Echad)”

Which is obviously not the case. The trinitarians try very hard to force to in the doctrine of the trinity by taking words, metaphors, idioms and verses which is blasphemy and a shame.  

 

Another deception that trinitarians try to do is show that the word “Elohim” is plural hence doctrine of trinity is present. Now in Tanakh their are other words that are also plural but are also absolute singular for example the word “shamayim” in Hebrew  which means “heaven” and also “heavens” is used many times in the Tanakh, the word “shamayim” is used in a absolute singler form and also sometimes used in a plural form. The word “Elohim” has many meanings(I.e expressions) and also can be singler and also plural. When “Elohim” is used in the plural form it can be referring to false gods it can also mean “Judge” which can also be used in the absolute singular form like in Exodus 7:1 “The Lord said to Moses, ‘See! I have made you a judge(elohim) over Pharaoh, and Aaron, your brother, will be your speaker.’ Also the word “Elohim” is used as an expression again like in Psalms 82:6 “ I have said you are elohim (godly), and are all sons(godly servants) of the Most high” over here “elohim” is used as an expression of a persons righteousness and devotion to God. When the word “Elohim” is used to refer to the one true God, it is used in its absolute singular form, and the “im” at the end is a plural of majesty/royalty and when the word “Elohim” is used to refer to the one true God it’s pronounced “Alohim” not “Elohim”. Many trinitarians try to deceive people by forcing the doctrine of trinity in the word “Elohim” when the word “Elohim” is used in a singler form in many places and also other words that are like it that can be plural such as “shamayim” are also used in a absolute singular form. And also the word “Elohim” has many other expressions and also is used in a absolute singular and plural as I have shown. In short the possibility of the doctrine of trinity being present in the word “Elohim” is not possible since it’s irrational, illogical and not consistent and contradicting as I have shown aswell. 

 

 

 

Did the man(who is tertullian) who came up with name trinity(trinitas) did he believe that the Holy Spirit the third person of the trinity is equal with the Father and The Son?  Or did he believe The Son(jesus) and the Holy Spirit was a lower God beside God the Father?

 

New Bible Dictionary, “The term trinity is not itself found in the Bible. It was first used by Tertullian at the close of the 2nd century, but received wide currency [common use in intellectual discussion] and formal elucidation [clarification] only in the 4th and 5th centuries.” — (1996, “Trinity”)

 

The New Bible Dictionary goes on to explain that, “the formal doctrine of the Trinity was the result of several inadequate attempts to explain who and what the Christian God really is ... To deal with these problems the Church Fathers met in [A.D.] 325 at the Council of Nicaea to set out an orthodox biblical definition concerning the divine identity.” However, it wasn't until 381, “at the Council of Constantinople, [that] the divinity of the Spirit was affirmed.”

 

Wikipedia states what Tertullian believed on the Godhead:

Tertullian was just a forerunner of the Nicene doctrine and did not state the immanent trinity. His use of trinitas (Latin: 'Threeness') emphasised the manifold character of God. In his treatise against Praxeas he used the words, “Trinity and economy, persons and substance.” The Son is distinct from the Father, and the Spirit from both the Father and the Son. “These three are one substance, not one person; and it is said, 'I and my Father are one' in respect not of the singularity of number but the unity of the substance.”

 

In his book Tertullian against Praxeas, he also states that the Son was not co-eternal with the Father and did have a beginning as the begotten Son of God.

 

 

The man who came up with the trinity explained it different to what the trinity is explained today. Many trinitarians say the God exists in Father and The Son and the Holy Spirit, this has always been refuted as shown above, it is irrational and illogical. Tertullian says that The father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons who are of one substance. Now going by Tertullian’s philosophy, The Holy Spirit and The Son are lower God’s beside God the Father since they are of one substance and distinct persons. Tertullian says The Son had a beginning, if The Son had a beginning then he’s created, that which is created is limited and is definitely not a God.  Also the divinity of the Holy Spirit wasn’t affirmed when the NT was paganise’d, there were still major debates on the divinity of the Holy Spirit until 381 AD. Although tertullian held on to the view that the holy spirit is divine person but not equal with God the Father and also had a beginning. 

 

 

If these doctrines were made later on and did not exists in the time of the apostles and Jesus nor did some of them exist in the time of tertullian then the trinity doctrine has absolutely zero basis or support.  Mathew 5:17 makes it clear that Jesus came to fulfil the Law and unaltered prophets message. If you read further more in the same chapter you will see jesus tells his followers to uphold the commandments and if you neglect any one of them you will be the least in the kingdom of God(paradise). This shows that Jesus believed in pure monotheism as the Jews and the previous prophets did. Also the the verses nullifies the teaching that jesus died for your sins to not be doomed. Rather it shows that you are responsible for your own actions and you have to follow the commandments and teachings to achieve salvation.  This teaching of jesus dying for your sins is a Pauline teaching that was added, and it made it to all four gospels later on by the pagans adding it to the four gospels. 

 

Tertullian however did introduce pagan ideas into the worship service. He taught oblations for the dead and made the sign of the cross on the forehead of worshipers. He also dipped people three times to baptize them. Tertullian freely admitted that he had adopted these ideas from pagan teachings and could not support them from Scripture, but he thought that if Christians adopted some heathen rituals of the pagans that they would find it easier to join Christianity.

 

Today what the trinitarians teach is Paul’s religion and later pagan teachings that were made later on and was forced into the four gospels.

 

 

Does John chapter 1 support the trinity?

 

Many Trinitarians use the 1st chapter in the gospel according to John to prove the trinity, the issue here is does the first chapter of John really support the trinity or is it a deliberate mistranslation in hopes to support the trinity? Let see the important parts of the passages that are used to support the trinity...

 

John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the word and the word was with Ho Theos and the word was theos. It was with Ho Theos in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that had been made. 

 

The “him” part in John1:1-3 can legitimately be translated as “it” and not “him” the only reason why it has “him” and not “it” is because trinitarians believe the word is jesus and the word is God thus it should be “him” not “it”. Now the trinitarians have done a big blasphemy on this passage and here’s why, when the passage says “and the word was with God”, the word “God” over here in Greek is “Ho Theos” which means “The God” which is a direct reference to the only one true God, in Aramaic it would be “Allaha” and in Arabic “Allah” the term “Ho Theos” translates the word “Allaha” literally. Then after that passage it says “and the word was theos” now the word “theos” over here can have many meanings to it, it can refer to kings, chiefs, judges or even refer to false gods and also mean divine. The proper translation of this part of the passage is “divine” then the next passage says “it was with God in the beginning” now the  word “God” in this passage in Greek is “Ho Thoes” referring to the one true God. Now if the word was God then it would say “Ho theos” instead of just “theos”,  the word “theos” can have many meanings if the gospel of John intended to show jesus is God the it would blatantly say “and the word was Ho theos” which is not the case.  Now a question arises what are these passages really talking about ? Here’s a long answer.

 

John 1:1-3

“1In the beginning was the word(Let their be) and the word(Let their be) was with God and the word(Let their Be) was divine. 2It was with God in the beginning. 3Through it all things were made; without it nothing was made that had been made.”

 

John 1:1 is actually referring back to the book of Genesis when God uses the expression “Let their Be” to bring the existence of the earth and what’s in it. The term “Let their Be” is a expression of God’s decree(command). 

 

When it says “the word was with God” what it’s actually saying is that the expression of “Let their Be”

,Which is the decree, was in God’s foreknowledge, God had already willed to create the heavens and earth and has also created a decree for it to be decreed at certain point of time. That decree and will was already in God’s foreknowledge, thus it says “it was with God in the beginning”. 

 

And when the passage in John1:1 that says “and the word was divine” what’s its pretty much conveying, is that the word( i.e the decree) is from God, it was a divine order. 

 

John 1:3 should be easy by now and it pretty much shows that, without God’s decree and will, nothing that has been made would be made. 

 

Now John1:4-5 is actually a pretty easy part now since we know the proper interpretation of John1:1-3. 

 

John1:4-5

4In it(the word) was life, and that life was the light(guide) of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness and the darkness has not overcome it. 

 

Over here when it says “in it(i.e the word) was life” that life is jesus himself, jesus was also in God’s foreknowledge and part of God’s will and decree but was appointed at a certain point of time in this case, and the the passage says “and that life was the light of all mankind” the passage shows that Jesus was the light(meaning the guide) of all mankind, this passage shows that Jesus came to bring guidance and bring people to a righteous path and adhere to the radical monotheism which the prophets and Messengers before him taught to their own people and across other countries. 

 

In John1:14 when it says “and the word became flesh” this verse is showing that God’s decree was decreed and it was manifested thus it became flesh. If you put  this verse between verse 9 and 10 you will fully understand the verse aswell and what it’s conveying. 

 

John 1:6-14

6There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to bear witness about the light(Messenger), that all might believe through him. 8He was not the light(Messenger); but came to bear witness about the light(Messenger). 

 

9The true light(Messenger) that gives light(guidance) to everyone was coming into the world. 10It(the word) was in the world and, though the world was made through it(the word) the world did not recognise it(the word). 11He went to his own people, and his own people did not accept him. 12But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to be godly servants of God 13They are reborn—not because of natural decent nor of the desire or will of mankind, but reborn for God.

 

14The word became flesh and made its dwelling among us. We have seen it’s glory, the glory of the LORD’s one and only Messenger.

 

That’s term “son of God” in Jewish traditions and shown in the OT is metaphor referring to godly prophets and Messengers who are close to God spiritually and chosen by God to convey a message from God. The term “son” used in verse john 1 verse 14 is added by the pagans since they believed in the Greek methodology and other pagan beliefs. 

 

 

Trinitarians will show some verses that they take out of context to show that Jesus existed before the world thus he must be God since God is uncreated(i.e eternal) and from Him all things came. 

Here is a verse that the trinitarians take out of context to support this claim. John 17:5 “And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with You before the world began.”  Now what the trinitarians don’t show is verse 6 and 7 which then will lead a person to a rational conclusion and give the proper interpretation, here’s verse 6 and 7, John 17:6-7 6“I have revealed You to those whom You gave me out of the world. They were Yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.

 

In verse 6 it says “I have revealed You to those whom You gave me out of the word.” Now if God gave jesus those who follow him(jesus) outside of the word, which is implying/hints out before the world was created, then those who follow him are also Gods since they also existed before the world was created. Obviously that is blasphemy and polytheism. What verse 6 and verse 5 actually shows is that their was a another realm which our spirits existed, which is similar to purgatory realm, were we testified that God is our LORD and their is no other and we also testified to Jesus’s prophethood and messiahship, as we continue to read verse 6 it says “They were Yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.” Verse 6 shows that we followed God since we testified that He is our LORD, and God made us testify to Jesus’ prophethood and Messiahship, since God glorified him by making him a prophet and messiah thus all the people in the spiritual realm testified to Jesus’ prophethood and messiahship and gave him special importance.  What verse 5 is showing is, Jesus is praying to God to glorify him with the glory that he had, before the world was created, in the spiritual realm where everyone testified to his prophethood and messiahship while God was a witness over him and us, in the world aswell. This will happen when Jesus returns and everyone will testify to Jesus’ prophethood and messiahship. And also the verses show that Jesus is supplicating to God if jesus is God then who is he supplicating to ? Or what’s even worse how many Gods are their ? A God praying to another God? 

 

 

Trinitarians try to use  2 Corinthians 13:14 to try an show that the trinity existed in Paul’s epistle, let’s examine the verse...

 

14May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing between Jesus Christ and the “love of God” and the Holy Spirit. 

 

The question arises did Paul believe in a trinity or was he a dualist ?  

 

 1 Corinthians 8:6

“6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live”

 

The passage makes it clear that the term “the Father” is attributed to God and that the Father is God himself and no other. 

 

Ephesians 1:3

“3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ”

 

We can clearly see that Paul is distinguishing God from Jesus and that Jesus has a God and that God is the father of Jesus. 

 

Colossians 1:3

“3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” 

 

Philippians 2:5-7

5In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

 

 

Now in verse 5 Paul is telling the people to have the same mindset as Jesus amongst each other then he continues on in verse by saying 6 “who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage” and he go’s in verse 7 by pretty much saying jesus took on a form of a human. 

 

In verse 6 Paul says “Who being very nature God” over here Paul believes Jesus to be God but then as we continue on in verse 6 Paul says “did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage”  Now over here Paul is distinguishing Jesus from God but he also believes jesus was also God beside God but Jesus who is the second God manifested himself in a human form ,as verse 7 shows, so that he is no longer equal to God rather he is limited. 

 

Now this is obviously a heresy and dualism since Jesus is a God beside God, despite jesus manifesting himself in a human form because in nature he is a God beside God except he is a limited God beside God. This is obviously not Monotheism at all and contradicts the Law and the prophets. So if the trinitarians try to use Paul’s epistles to show the trinity then they have to believe there are either two Gods or three Gods since Paul believes Jesus was a God beside God but he limited himself so he is no longer equal to God by not being Almighty like God. 

 

Jesus himself didn’t claim he was God rather explicitly denies being God and also rebukes being called the Son of God. 

 

Mark 10:17-18

 “17As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

 

18“Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.”

 

If Jesus considered himself to be God then he wouldn’t say “why do you CALL ME good ? No one is good, EXCEPT GOD ALONE” jesus is explicitly denying being God.

 

Another argument that the trinitarians bring is they say Jesus said “I and the Father are one” this is a deception, they simply quoting a verse and taking it out context and not reading it in context, let’s have a look at the context. 

 

John 10:27-39

“27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

 

31Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

 

33“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

 

34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “elohim (godly people)” ’ ? 35If he called them ‘elohim(godly people)-(Psalms 82:6),’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own [representative] and sent to the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s son’? 37Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 

 

38But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is united with me, and I am united with the father.” 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.”

 

In john 10:32 we see that the Jews misunderstood what Jesus had meant by “I and my Father are one.” (John 10:29). And in john 10:33 they accused him of blasphemy. Now, had Jesus been God, or had he and God been one in a literal sense then he wouldn’t have hesitated to clarify the matter at that point. Jesus at that point said, “Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods?” What he was trying to say was that if the Jews called “I and my Father are one” blasphemy then they should call what was written in their law “You are gods” blasphemy too.

 

The reasoning behind this is “You are elohim” does not mean that you, the Jewish Messengers, are Gods, it is rather an expression. It just means that you are godly people. The same applies to “I and my Father are one.” It does not mean that Jesus is God or that he and God are the same literally. It’s just an expression meaning they are one in purpose. 

 

Jesus explicitly rebukes being called the Son of God in a literal sense, 

 

Luke 4:41 

“41Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, “You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Messiah.”

 

It is clear that Jesus rebuked them because they were calling him the literal son of God when deep down they knew he was the Messiah not the literal son of God as the verse clearly states. Jesus was already preaching and healing so demons and later on the Pharisees are trying their hardest to give a accusation in order to get him executed so Jesus was constantly explaining himself and being clever with his preaching. Verse 43 jesus explicitly says he must go preach the the good news of the covenant of God and in verse 42 people are tying to make him stay. So in short Jesus was already preaching and he had to face false accusations from the demons then later on the teachers of the law and the Pharisees. 

 

 

The term “son of God” has been used in the OT many times and it is used as an metaphor to those who are Messengers of God (i.e those who have received scriptures from God) and are spiritually close to God.

 

 

 

Their are some verses in the gospel according to John which show that Jesus was originally in heaven and then was conceived by saint Mary. But to clear all these contradictions, the oldest gospel is Mark and then Mathew is like Mark with some added words that are pagan and Greek methodology elements and then Luke which perhaps was written by Luke the companion of Paul. Mathew 5:17-20(The Law and the Prophets) is the measuring rod that is to be used when reconstructing the bible and the base is the gospel of Mathew, and the gospel of Mark also helps a lot with reconstructing the bible and also parts of Luke and John. In these four gospels their is truth and when the truth that is in the 4 gospels is combined and put in chronological order the Evangel becomes a reliable book, thus is how the truth within these gospels is intended to be persevered thus only the true sincere followers of Christ will find if they strive hard and use reason, logic and commonsense. Obviously and sadly not many people will find that path they will go astray as jesus prophesied in Mathew 7:13-14 “13Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14.But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to [eternal] life, and only a few find it.” Unfortunately many “Christians” have entered the wide gate which lead to go astray and have pagan beliefs and perhaps also be wicked. The truth that is contained within the 4 gospels must be preached to these lost sheep in order to live a righteous life and fulfil the proper religious obligations to achieve eternal life which is paradise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Guest

I also have a article on Paul and showing which sect is true sect out of the many sects that exist. If you guys are interested I can post it aswell. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, notme said:

Each person is accountable only for his own sins, no man can bear the sin of another, and,

- The sins of the father are passed down through the seventh generation of descendants. 

We are accountable for our own sins, we are also responsible for the sins or bad habits we teach our children. There are also ill gained diseases that become hereditary. 
Jewish law stated that if a man sinned, (don't recall the actual sins at the moment), he should be exiled from the temple down to the fifth generation.

Joshua was instructed to kill every man woman and child, livestock too, leave nothing, take nothing. What we don't know is why. We can either judge it as a horrible thing to do to nice people or assume there must be a reason for complete annihilation. We don't have much information on the other tribes around at the time. We know they were pagans, we don't know to what extent. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, God did the destroying and that was acceptable because it mentions what an evil and perverse bunch they were. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, GD41586 said:

I'll do my best, this won't be as easy as I initially thought: When I read the passages dealing with Jesus, I felt like I actually knew him better than I did reading the Bible. That I was seeing the real, true-to-life Jesus for the first time in my life rather than a figure that was part of some cosmic, blood-atonement sacrifice ritual that in fact, limits what God is capable of by requiring that conditions be fulfilled in order for him to "be able" to forgive sins. I understand the appeal to the Judaic sacrifice ritual considering that Jesus was a Jew, I just never really found that it made sense to me upon being honest with myself.

God doesn't need anything because he simply is & it's been my experience through 33 years of Christianity that the major dogma in protestantism is that "God can't forgive people unless certain conditions are met, and the condition that God needed to fulfill in order to forgive is that he had to become a man (a "fully-God, fully-human" man at that) and die in a specific way, fulfilling very specific conditions in order to be able to forgive mankind's sins. Not just the sins of commission or omission mind you, but the "sin" of existing after two people at the dawn of earth disobeyed Him.

Yes, I reject the idea of original sin as well. I believe that it was a dogmatic escape hatch that was added in so that the church would have a go-to answer for people who say "I have kept the law to the letter" in order to create a need for the church and the services it provides for every human being on the planet (or at least in Europe). For God to be God, he must be the prime source and center of justice as a concept, so therefore he wouldn't send people to "everlasting torture with no hope of escape" based on the actions of two people so far removed from the individual he is judging. (Yes, I believe that punishment in the afterlife is temporary... apparently many Christians did too, as the doctrine of purgatory was a big thing for centuries).

It would be easier if I could just have you peer inside my mind and understand the thought process I have wrestled with since I was a child rather than attempting to explain it myself, because it goes pretty deep and there is so much to cover.

Also, the entirety of evangelicalism didn't really help steer me away from Islam either; particularly due to the existence of over thirty thousand different denominations that are all battling one another to put bodies in the seats that can be asked for 10% of their weekly income & told that they are "sinning" by not giving it, thus providing a need for the church & ensuring that they get the money they believe themselves to be entitled to so that they too can live the Standard American Life of chasing material possessions and showing them off on social media while they pretend to care about the communities surrounding them (Amazing how churches are tax-exempt in America, have plenty of zeroes in their bank accounts, but can never seem to use that money to make a dent in poverty, drug abuse, and the nauseatingly perverse "hook-up culture" that teaches Americans 40 & under to worship sexuality as their god.

I mean, this is an entire subset of Western culture that has largely lost the power to influence society & has cynically decided to keep "rolling with it" because they can at least continue to make a new bible translation every year that will teach exactly what the latest hip denomination with John Piper approval has decided that it wants to emphasize every Wednesday night & Sunday morning.

Hope you're doing well today!

Thanks for responding!  By the way, when did you make the switch?  How recent was it? Just curious...

The sacrificial system was part of the Jews, yes, but it goes back to who God is, way before this system was put into place.  God is perfect, loving and just, to name a few of his attributes.  I think you would agree.  However, he cannot permit sin in his presence, as it is highly offensive and opposite of his very nature.  Jesus' sacrifice has to do with who God is.  Think about this:  in the garden of Eden Adam and Eve are removed nearly immediately from the garden.  After that, we see sin in the world and in every human being from that point.  Putting original sin aside, the reality is still that we've all "sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Romans).  So, they were kicked out and could never go back.  They were not given a second chance to remain sinless but rather a flaming sword and angels are put in the entrance to block them from returning.  Everything goes downhill from there.  God could have given them some rules to follow at this point, but he didn't.  We see God's nature here in that he cannot have fellowship with sinners.  So, Jesus' death on the cross is an act of mercy and love, taking my place so that upon my death, (provided I believe and receive the free gift) I would not have to be in eternity apart from him.   Justice must be served from a God who is just, but he takes the punishment instead of me having to take it.  God, in his nature, simply cannot be with something unholy but he provided a way to restore what was severed in the garden.  In fact, no one according to the Bible was ever made righteous by works.  Even Abraham believed and it was counted to him as righteousness.  The sacrifice of Jesus affected past, present and future generations.  He cannot forgive without a death because he is just.  No one can actually keep God's law perfectly because we all sin and mess up.  The reason he became a man was to not only teach us by example how to obey God and submit to him, but to become the perfect sacrifice.  Sin comes in through man and must be paid by man, but if God became a man then his sacrifice could be enough to take away the sins of the world, paying the price for mankind, and making peace with God.  Sure you've heard this before!

Hey, I agree with you about western evangelicalism and a lot of the immaturity that we see.  I get what you're saying about Piper and money, etc.  It is sad.  While it is absolutely no excuse, I think it can be seen in scripture that when we look at the "church," you're dealing with a lot of different people.  Some are not even Christians at all.  I'm sure you probably saw people and wondered if they were really believers in Christ.  Some are baby believers, not yet mature in the faith.  Some are false prophets or false teachers who have evil agendas to make money etc.  Some may be struggling at points in their walk with God.  However, even the true Christians are in a process of sanctification, learning how to walk and talk more like Christ.  I think it's a case by case situation, but honestly I think western Christianity needs change, and many times this comes when hard times hit.  But I get what you're saying... 

  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Son of Placid said:

We are accountable for our own sins, we are also responsible for the sins or bad habits we teach our children. There are also ill gained diseases that become hereditary. 
Jewish law stated that if a man sinned, (don't recall the actual sins at the moment), he should be exiled from the temple down to the fifth generation.

Joshua was instructed to kill every man woman and child, livestock too, leave nothing, take nothing. What we don't know is why. We can either judge it as a horrible thing to do to nice people or assume there must be a reason for complete annihilation. We don't have much information on the other tribes around at the time. We know they were pagans, we don't know to what extent. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, God did the destroying and that was acceptable because it mentions what an evil and perverse bunch they were. 

Son of Placid, 

I agree with most of what you say, but the Old Testament does talk about how bad this group got like in Leviticus.  Also, God waited sometimes hundreds of years before he did things like this.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, notme said:

The Bible contains much wisdom. It is comprised of 66 books, complied over hundreds, maybe a thousand years. It lacks internal consistency. It can't all be right. 

For example, the Bible says both:

- Each person is accountable only for his own sins, no man can bear the sin of another, and,

- The sins of the father are passed down through the seventh generation of descendants. 

Also, clearly you're unfamiliar with the Old Testament. Do you even know what god allegedly told the conquering nomadic tribe of Joshua to do? It was definitely not peace and joy. It was horrific and evil. 

Definitely the Bible contains some truth, some valuable insight. Everyone should be familiar with it, especially those of us who live in Christian or Jewish dominated societies. But if you disregard the clear political additions, get past the violence and injustice by "god's chosen ones", and read to learn, maybe it will lead you to Islam. 

Notme, 

In my experience I have been amazed at how consistent the Bible actually has been, considering the amount of authors that wrote and the extensive time period over which it was written.  

-You are right about both of your first two points.  The Bible does say this.  However, you are only responsible for your own sins.  There are sins that are passed down from generation to generation because of tendencies and things taught to us by those who committed those sins.  These sinful behavior may be passed down, however, with God these tendencies can be stopped.  No one in the Bible is judged for their sin (negatively in the afterlife) for the sins of their ancestors.  

-I am very familiar with the Old Testament.  God did tell them to kill and in some cases drive out people, yes.  God also wiped out nearly the whole earth in the Torah in Genesis 6 with the flood.  Everyone has sinned against God and fallen short of his glory, so he actually could have destroyed everyone on earth if he wanted to.  He is holy and just.  But in his mercy he did not.  There's a story behind the whole conquest of this last and in part it has to do with God choosing a people (the Jews) and wiping out people who for a long time were notorious sinners, idolaters, and who committed child sacrifices.  What they did is found in the Old Testament.  He also did not want his people to be influenced by their evil ways as he was preparing a holy people, who would love God and follow him.  Obviously we both know that the Jews didn't always behave very well and were punished and discipline because of it.  Anyway, God has all the right to judge the earth because no one is innocent before his.  There are times when we see God giving places a chance to repent such as Nineveh and Sodom and Gomorrah, all obviously non-Israelite cities.  But when I read the whole story and understand what God was doing through the whole thing, yes, I am amazed with a holy fear but also at his kindness, mercy, love, etc.  

Like I said, God's people didn't always obey him either.  The Bible is a raw account of the good, bad and ugly.  People acted without God's permission sometimes and we usually see the results of that.  I don't question that you believe the Bible has some truth.  But if a book has some truth and it's not all truth, then God did not preserve his word very well and therefore none of it can be trusted.  Otherwise, what person could sift through it and declare this or that to be true?  In my experience and study, I have found the Bible to be compellingly accurate and scholarship has been really on point.  

I hope you don't take any of my answers to be written in anger, frustration or in any way negative.  I value this discussion and your comments as well.  And I hope you are doing well too!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...