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In the Name of God بسم الله

There is no rational need for hell

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On 4/28/2020 at 6:26 PM, khamosh21 said:

Thoughts?

Why would we debate about hell based on the Sunni belief? The person you quoted based their entire argument on the Sunni concept of qadr, which we Shias reject. Through free will and ones actions, a person can be destined to hell or not. Nobody is to be sent there already at birth. This is illogical fallacy in Sunni theology that denies Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ability to be all powerful and change the course of ones faith. Sunnis have a big problem with limiting Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in many theological aspects. That said, there’s a lot of proofs for hell; from the Holy Quran to the authentic narrations of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his purified progeny. Rejecting it all as a proof can be as well applied to the entire religion in every aspect of belief. By this logic, what is a proof for Paradise? Barzakh? etc. 

Edited by OrthodoxTruth
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11 hours ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

 This is illogical fallacy in Sunni theology that denies Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ability to be all powerful and change the course of ones faith.

The problem with your statement is that a 'Perfect Being' cannot change its mind -

To change is to be subject to time, and to change implies that what comes after was better than before, which would contradict God's perfection.

If God changes from one state of mind to another, then there must be a reason. The new state must be better than the old state. But this is impossible if God is perfect: It is not possible to "improve" God, therefore, God cannot change. 

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18 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

This is the example where a person is made responsible and accountable of his acts in this world. How a person does not consider himself responsible and accountable for the whole life of 60 or 70 years  by just saying that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) know my deeds and i should not punished? Has thy not warned about every thing in detail in his book ie Quran? We should be logical as we live this world and making preparation for the last world / akhira. wasalam

If there are specific reasons for everything you say and do, then God knows those reasons. And from the beginning of time, God knew those reasons and what you would say and do. You couldn't do anything else. (or God would be wrong).

     ---- @Quisant

Can you do anything else.........

Edited by Shahrukh K
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12 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

Can you do anything else.........

I have quoted the example of a theif / cheater and his action  that has not been addressed instead few misquoted words have been repeated :confused:.

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1 hour ago, Shahrukh K said:

If there are specific reasons for everything you say and do, then God knows those reasons. And from the beginning of time, God knew those reasons and what you would say and do. You couldn't do anything else. (or God would be wrong).

     ---- @Quisant

Can you do anything else.........

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) having the knowledge of your fate does not  mean he has forced upon you to do good or bad,  and nor does Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) dictates your life. The above statement that you have written was it  dictated by the almighty was it? No it wasn't!  It was combination of your emotion and thought process. Even if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does know what you are saying and doing dose mean it is controlled? 

 

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17 hours ago, Guest Abaan said:

If God changes from one state of mind to another, then there must be a reason. The new state must be better than the old state. But this is impossible if God is perfect: It is not possible to "improve" God, therefore, God cannot change. 

Salam God doesn't change his mind & he clearly set rules & punishment but he gives us chances to change our fate by giving power to us to change our mind to choose one of predefined fates .

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12 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

If there are specific reasons for everything you say and do, then God knows those reasons. And from the beginning of time, God knew those reasons and what you would say and do. You couldn't do anything else. (or God would be wrong).

     ---- @Quisant

Can you do anything else.........


If everything that exists has a ‘reason’ for its existence and the source of that reason is ‘random chance’ then you do have some free will.
But if the source of that ‘reason’ is God then you have no free will.

I'll repeat my reasoning for the above statement is as follows:

If a Creator God exists and is not in control or fully aware of every future consequence of his creative act, He is not a God, he is an irresponsible, capricious entity. 
In other words Allah must know your future and everything you will do with infallible Omniscience.

Everything in existence is tied to God through a network of causes all the way back to Creation: an unbroken chain of cause-and-effect.
If God's Omniscience is correct we can only do what he designed us to do; we can only do what He knows we will do, essentially making us nothing more than conscious puppets.
No free will.

Ask yourself is it possible to do other than God knows we will do?
How would you answer that?


If a Creator God does not exist we only have limited free will;
We do not choose our feelings, desires, tastes, genes, environments, parents, family and relatives, tribe/clan, native language, upbringing, and son and so forth; everything has already been decided for us.
We each have about as much knowledge of what we are about to think next as we do of what someone else would think. We are not the author of our own thoughts. That is, we don't pick our next thought. 
Can you stop yourself thinking, can you choose which thoughts to summon for analysis or decide what to think?

The philosopher Schopenhauer famously wrote:
Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills. 

He makes a distinction between freedom of acting (which he endorses) and freedom of willing (which he refutes). 

Our 'willing' is slave to desires over which we have little control; we cannot will what we will. Yes you are free to do whatever you desire. But you are not free to choose your desires.
In essence, man's desires are not predicated on careful calculation; rather, they are innate. The "heart of man" is autonomous and fickle. Our urges are genetically encoded, rooted in the subconscious and not subject to the whims (desires) of the conscious mind. 

This should give you food for thought; the question of free will comes up very often. What do you think? Always instructive to read other people opinions.

Wslm.  

*

 

 

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On 5/2/2020 at 2:54 PM, OrthodoxTruth said:

Why would we debate about hell based on the Sunni belief? The person you quoted based their entire argument on the Sunni concept of qadr, which we Shias reject. Through free will and ones actions, a person can be destined to hell or not. Nobody is to be sent there already at birth. This is illogical fallacy in Sunni theology that denies Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ability to be all powerful and change the course of ones faith. Sunnis have a big problem with limiting Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in many theological aspects. That said, there’s a lot of proofs for hell; from the Holy Quran to the authentic narrations of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his purified progeny. Rejecting it all as a proof can be as well applied to the entire religion in every aspect of belief. By this logic, what is a proof for Paradise? Barzakh? etc. 

I don't think this addition makes any difference... and yes i am using this logic for entire religion, i thought that was evident and i didn't need to spell it out.

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Much of the discussion around free will is repetitive and discussed many times on this forum and elsewhere. I understand that God doesn't "make" people do things, and thus we do not blame Him.

However my question is this, God certainly makes decisions which impact humans beings, and He knows how those decisions will impact us to the very last atom i.e. whenever God decides anything individually or holistically, he knows the butterfly effects of it. So for example - e.g. these decisions

1. Aiding Muslims in winning a war.

2. Allowing certain people to live or die.

3. Who the Prophet married and it's future implications.

4. Allowing certain nations to live, and destroying others e.g. why today we have a billion Hindus, but some other nation was destroyed.

As God's decisions effect us and what decisions we will make with our free will, and He knows how things will play out, why is He not partially responsible for the consequences of His decisions?

Another example - suppose I send my son to a bar with the instructions of not drinking - yet he drinks anyway - am I not somewhat responsible considering I sent him there, or am I completely absolved of any liability since I gave him clear instructions of what to do? (emphasis on me sending him to the bar)

Edited by khamosh21
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On 5/2/2020 at 8:40 AM, layman said:

Extreme torture and pain?

For me is when you are detached from God and Prophet and Imams.  That loss of connection will be extremely painful.  This is based on personal experiences.  Hell or Heaven means nothing.  Hell or Heaven is for humans who USE LOGICs of the mind to embark on certain belief or school of thoughts.  I am not against logics.

You yourself are using logic of the mind to understand Hell, Heaven, and hereafter.  That for me almost impossible.  Unseen, hell, heaven and hereafter are beyond logic of the mind, it is under the category of belief that requires witnessing or shahadat.  

Islam is a religion of truth.  You can experiment it and ask God to make you to verify or witness certain event for you. You can ask God, i want to know the reality of Hell....He will show or reveal the reality of Hell for you ...maybe for miliseconds.  Or at least to show you the least severe Hell and not the highest  category of hell. Why humans dont ask for God to show His proofs to them? But that is at individual level.  That will be enough for a person to have Yaqiin (proven) in the hereafter.

Everyone in the lowest of Hell will scream to God, "please dont disconnect me from your You or Your Mercy". People who at the highest heaven will say the same thing..."please dont disconnect us from YOU after we witness your Blessings".

The disconnection from God and His Beloved Servants (Prophet and Imams) is the highest pain.

 

For sake of argument lets say there is no such place as an eternal hell, then let's come to this temporary torture rehabilitation center... so what do you make of the verse of the Quran which speaks of people's skin being burnt over and over again? Or them having to eat and drink boiling water? Or the hadith which talk about angels breaking a large rock over peoples' heads that missed fajr prayer? Or how do you feel about woman being hung by their hair will being tortured by angels?

Or how about people being squeezed in the graves, snakes and scorpions ravaging them... not world snakes and scorpions...

What do these extreme forms of pain and torture have anything to do with what you are talking about, and do you find such practices and punishments acceptable?

 

 

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Guest Fahad Hassan

First of all anyone who reads please don't reply harshly as even Hazrat Ibrahim questioned Allah and that there is nothing bad in it.

I also thought about this and so instead of putting a person in hell it is better to put him in the lowest stage of Jannah and also make him see the gifts of the top ranked heaven. The sinner would simply be punished by guilt which according to me is the worst punishment ever.

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3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

For sake of argument lets say there is no such place as an eternal hell, then let's come to this temporary torture rehabilitation center... so what do you make of the verse of the Quran which speaks of people's skin being burnt over and over again? Or them having to eat and drink boiling water? Or the hadith which talk about angels breaking a large rock over peoples' heads that missed fajr prayer? Or how do you feel about woman being hung by their hair will being tortured by angels?

Or how about people being squeezed in the graves, snakes and scorpions ravaging them... not world snakes and scorpions...

What do these extreme forms of pain and torture have anything to do with what you are talking about, and do you find such practices and punishments acceptable?

 

 

Okay let put forward a realistic scenario.  How should  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) punish those lunatics who would burn down your house, slaughter your parents, behead your wife, tear apart your daughter, burn your son alive and made you watch each and everything of it, these kinds of barbaric atrocity has happened throughout history it's no exaggeration, these atrocity were  recently inflicted upon the Yazidis in Iraq by ISIS.

And how about Firon who massacred newborn babies? Hitler annihilating innocents jewish people by burning them including children women and men. And those governments, for example; the war in Vietnam  where tens of thousand innocent people had  died for no reason and these events are just the tip of the iceberg.

Are you in the position to say you have a better judgment than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who Knows his creation! 

And the beauty of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mercy is, had any of these murders had repented their hereafter could've change for the better. 

 

 

Edited by power
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God knowing the fate of a person is not forcing anyone to do sins. 

Ending everything of a bad person with death is against justice. Suppose a tyrant like yazeed (may Allahs curse be on him) dies and everything ends for him, is it fair? Or he deserves more punishment? 

Leave the sinners there are huge percentage of good people who do good deeds due to fear from the punishment of hell, There are high chances these people too will leave the path of goodness had death been the end of everything which even a prophet or an imam has to face. 

Imagine a teacher of a class teaching few students. She out of her knowledge of teaching can guess  that few of her students will score good while some of them are going to surely fail the exam. Is it fair on the teacher's part to prevent them from appearing exams just because she knows they are going to fail?. Letting them to appear for exam and letting them try there best is justice. 

Edited by Nadeemsayyed110
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38:69  “I have no knowledge of the discussion of the Mala-i Ala (the Exalted Assembly of angels).”
This discussion is the root cause of the creation.

I do not know what was the reason behind the dispute in the heaven, but i think i know the purpose of life. At present we are in hell since we (Adam/mankind) tasted from the cursed tree, that Allah want to purify us. So that we will (again) become one with Him. 
The steps of purification create suffering and since Allah is merciful He wanted to tell us (not the body) that be only witness (shahid) of the process to avoid suffering. Do not identify yourself with the body. 

It is Allah who creates this universe of His own free will. It is Allah who moves the stars and adjusts the motions of the planets. The events of our lives may seem determined from our perspective, but Allah is creating everything of His own free will. He is the One who determines when you will be feeling devotion, when you will need to struggle to overcome old tendencies, when you will suddenly experience the Love, the heartache, the Union. It is all His play. And His sense of time is quite different from ours. From His perspective, above and beyond the play of time and space, an 
entire human lifetime is not even the blink of an eye. The beginning, duration, and reabsorption of universal manifestation is but a breath. But in that endless play, we may be sure that all of us, one by one, must eventually be brought home to perfect clarity in the Unity of Allah.

In the Quran Allah giving criteria/signs of the people who are purified.
The moment when we realize that we are not the doer we are only witnessing the acts of our body. The moment when we realize that we do not have any will other than the will of Allah this is the sign of purification.

17:84  Say, 'Everyone acts according to his own creation program (natural disposition; fitrah).' This is why your Rabb (who is the Fatir) knows best who is on the right path!

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55 minutes ago, power said:

Okay let put forward a realistic scenario.  How should  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) punish those lunatics who would burn down your house, slaughter your parents, behead your wife, tear apart your daughter, burn your son alive and made you watch each and everything of it, these kinds of barbaric atrocity has happened throughout history it's no exaggeration, these atrocity were  recently inflicted upon the Yazidis in Iraq by ISIS.

And how about Firon who massacred newborn babies? Hitler annihilating innocents jewish people by burning them including children women and men. And those governments, for example; the war in Vietnam  where tens of thousand innocent people had  died for no reason and these events are just the tip of the iceberg.

Are you in the position to say you have a better judgment than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who Knows his creation! 

And the beauty of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mercy is, had any of these murders had repented their hereafter could've change for the better. 

 

 

As a human with human emotions, yes I want those people to suffer... however as ive asked earlier in this post, from God's point of view, to what end is their suffering, and why should it be eternal? what benefit does it serve to torture people like that?

Also a God that has power over all thing‌s could surely achieve His objective, assuming He has an objective, without the use of extreme torture and pain? 

Also some of the extreme punishments in the grave, barzakh and hell are there for average person for day to day sins, not just the extreme cases... does missing fajr really deserve having a rock smashed on your head? what's the connection?

 

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4 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

For sake of argument lets say there is no such place as an eternal hell, then let's come to this temporary torture rehabilitation center... so what do you make of the verse of the Quran which speaks of people's skin being burnt over and over again? Or them having to eat and drink boiling water? Or the hadith which talk about angels breaking a large rock over peoples' heads that missed fajr prayer? Or how do you feel about woman being hung by their hair will being tortured by angels?

Or how about people being squeezed in the graves, snakes and scorpions ravaging them... not world snakes and scorpions...

What do these extreme forms of pain and torture have anything to do with what you are talking about, and do you find such practices and punishments acceptable?

 

 

I find that what Pharoah, Yazid, Hitler, Saddam, Saudis Royal ,  Zionist and The  USA leadership have done to innocent people in most inhumane manners are NOT ACCEPTABLE. They are totally detached from Goodness and Mercy.

If the warning of extreme punishment don't deter them from oppressing and depriving others from freedom to be decent humans, then they have to witness the extreme form of  punishment.  I believed those extreme forms of punishment that God told us were the collection of requests in term of punishments from all oppressed people that were killed by them.  Allah materialized their requests.  This is only way that each oppressed person will feel satisfied that their sufferings are paid back tby those who were unjust to them..  God does benefits from these tortures. 

The same will be with heaven.  All the blessings are collections of wishes of humans that have done goodness in this world.

For an Arif, heaven and hell are not in their equation.  The form of blessings to them are not yet known.  Yet to be witnessed and biggest surprises. 

Do we know how much sufferings were created by those people who lied, cheated, broke promises, back biting, false accusations......   Those tortures such as boiling, skin burnt, eaten by snakes and so on... are parts of punishment that ordinary people have done unjust to each other, not to level of pharaoh who took the life of people (babies, children, men and women) in extreme manners. 

 

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Salam,

While reciting chapter 19, I paused at a verse:

Surah Maryam, Verse 71:
وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلَّا وَارِدُهَا كَانَ عَلَىٰ رَبِّكَ حَتْمًا مَّقْضِيًّا

And there is not one of you but shall come to it (Hell); this is an unavoidable decree of your Lord.
(English - Shakir)

So every soul must have to pass through or by or over it. If this is the case, perhaps Hell will become cooler for those who are mentioned as "muqarraboon" in Quran. It reminds me the story of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) when he was thrown into the fire and it didn't hurt him. 

Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 101:
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ سَبَقَتْ لَهُم مِّنَّا الْحُسْنَىٰ أُولَٰئِكَ عَنْهَا مُبْعَدُونَ

Surely (as for) those for whom the good has already gone forth from Us, they shall be kept far off from it;
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 102:
لَا يَسْمَعُونَ حَسِيسَهَا وَهُمْ فِي مَا اشْتَهَتْ أَنفُسُهُمْ خَالِدُونَ

They will not hear its faintest sound, and they shall abide in that which their souls long for.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Anbiya, Verse 103:
لَا يَحْزُنُهُمُ الْفَزَعُ الْأَكْبَرُ وَتَتَلَقَّاهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ هَٰذَا يَوْمُكُمُ الَّذِي كُنتُمْ تُوعَدُونَ

The great fearful event shall not grieve them, and the angels shall meet them: This is your day which you were promised.
(English - Shakir)

The above verses of chapter 21 are perhaps the tafseer of this verse:

Surah Maryam, Verse 72:
ثُمَّ نُنَجِّي الَّذِينَ اتَّقَوا وَّنَذَرُ الظَّالِمِينَ فِيهَا جِثِيًّا

And We will deliver those who guarded (against evil), and We will leave the unjust therein on their knees.
(English - Shakir)

This means that it is our deeds which can cause the hellfire to become cooler and it is our deeds which makes it hotter. 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) grant us the toufeeq to do what is good for our souls & protect us from this great fearful event.

 

 

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18 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

As a human with human emotions, yes I want those people to suffer... however as ive asked earlier in this post, from God's point of view, to what end is their suffering, and why should it be eternal? what benefit does it serve to torture people like that?

Also a God that has power over all thing‌s could surely achieve His objective, assuming He has an objective, without the use of extreme torture and pain? 

Also some of the extreme punishments in the grave, barzakh and hell are there for average person for day to day sins, not just the extreme cases... does missing fajr really deserve having a rock smashed on your head? what's the connection?

 

You will agree most criminals like,Murders, Rapist, Pedophile, Sadist Tyrants Dictators etc. Will not change their barbaric behaviour, in fact some of the  criminals will leave a legacy for generation where crimes against humanity  will continue for many generation. 

Now, the crux of your assertion is: why the eternity of damnation for these wretched souls, and the extreme form of punishment. 

 These kinds of question are quite common in the realms of Monotheism  it has been around since the inception of religion.

Anyway, in islamic literature you will find related topic's such as your that has been addressed accordingly,You may disagree, that's fine, i'm just putting forward a rational response that makes sense. 

 Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows his creation better than any mortal person.  And In the time of the Imams of Ahlul  Byt (عليه السلام) people where inquisitive to understand what was  heaven and hell about, and i guess not surprisingly this was one of the question that was asked, "Why the eternity of hell".

And  Imams (عليه السلام) addressed this kind question stating: Almighty had created our souls to exist forever. If  these wretched people had lived for eternity in this world  they would had not change from there inhumane behaviour, because even Imams (عليه السلام) and Prophets ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) lived in the times where atrocities happened like firon for example. Below i have posted an short extract from the Imams of Ahlul bayt (عليه السلام)

Their punishment is eternal because, given the chance, they would have done evil eternally. Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام)) was asked the same question and he replied:

“Surely, people of Hell are eternally in Hell because their intention was if they lived in this world eternally they would disobey God eternally, likewise people of Paradise will be eternally in Paradise becasue their intention was if they lived in this world eternally they would worship God eternally.” (al-Kaafi, vol.2 p.85)

Their punishment is severe because of the magnitude of their transgressions. These people have denied the greatest and most obvious of Truths, and the only way they can do this is by having killed their conscience. A person who has killed their own conscience has usually also committed atrocious acts against his fellow beings, and if they had been given opportunity, their atrocities would have continued to forever get worse.

Edited by power
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On 5/4/2020 at 9:11 AM, power said:

You will agree most criminals like,Murders, Rapist, Pedophile, Sadist Tyrants Dictators etc. Will not change their barbaric behaviour, in fact some of the  criminals will leave a legacy for generation where crimes against humanity  will continue for many generation. 

Now, the crux of your assertion is: why the eternity of damnation for these wretched souls, and the extreme form of punishment. 

 These kinds of question are quite common in the realms of Monotheism  it has been around since the inception of religion.

Anyway, in islamic literature you will find related topic's such as your that has been addressed accordingly,You may disagree, that's fine, i'm just putting forward a rational response that makes sense. 

 Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows his creation better than any mortal person.  And In the time of the Imams of Ahlul  Byt (عليه السلام) people where inquisitive to understand what was  heaven and hell about, and i guess not surprisingly this was one of the question that was asked, "Why the eternity of hell".

And  Imams (عليه السلام) addressed this kind question stating: Almighty had created our souls to exist forever. If  these wretched people had lived for eternity in this world  they would had not change from there inhumane behaviour, because even Imams (عليه السلام) and Prophets ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) lived in the times where atrocities happened like firon for example. Below i have posted an short extract from the Imams of Ahlul bayt (عليه السلام)

Their punishment is eternal because, given the chance, they would have done evil eternally. Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام)) was asked the same question and he replied:

“Surely, people of Hell are eternally in Hell because their intention was if they lived in this world eternally they would disobey God eternally, likewise people of Paradise will be eternally in Paradise becasue their intention was if they lived in this world eternally they would worship God eternally.” (al-Kaafi, vol.2 p.85)

Their punishment is severe because of the magnitude of their transgressions. These people have denied the greatest and most obvious of Truths, and the only way they can do this is by having killed their conscience. A person who has killed their own conscience has usually also committed atrocious acts against his fellow beings, and if they had been given opportunity, their atrocities would have continued to forever get worse.

If I was there, these are the followup questions I would ask...

1) why does Allah not completely remove these people from existence after they have served their time in hell for their crimes? why keep them burning or in existence to serve what purpose?

2) Finite crimes = finite punishment - I don't see how finite crimes = infinite punishment, these things are not equal

3) if our purpose in life is to know Allah, are these people in hell getting to know some really crazy side of Allah? what is their purpose of existence in hell?

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On 5/6/2020 at 11:30 AM, khamosh21 said:

If I was there, these are the followup questions I would ask...

1) why does Allah not completely remove these people from existence after they have served their time in hell for their crimes? why keep them burning or in existence to serve what purpose?

2) Finite crimes = finite punishment - I don't see how finite crimes = infinite punishment, these things are not equal

3) if our purpose in life is to know Allah, are these people in hell getting to know some really crazy side of Allah? what is their purpose of existence in hell?

19:71. And there is none among you who He will not pass through (experience) Hell! This is, by your Rabb, a definite decree.

This very existence is hell.
You were happy in nothingness because there you do not exist, But suddenly there is a disturbance, an idea/thought.
The idea ‘I am the body’ is the seed of this existence/creation, 
Thus hell/existence only for those who are still holding onto this idea. 
You will remain in this hell until you realize that you are nothing. 
You are no thing, question and answers will be there only in this existence based on "i am the body" idea. On having the firm conviction "i am not the body" you enter the non dual state where neither you nor question  nor answer exist.

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On 5/3/2020 at 4:59 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam God doesn't change his mind & he clearly set rules & punishment but he gives us chances to change our fate by giving power to us to change our mind to choose one of predefined fates .

Thank you for that comment.

does  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) know that we are gonna chose that path ? If He does then technically it was predestined. So for example I was approaching the wrong path then I switched, did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) know that would Happen ? If that is the case then that is also predestined.

an example of what I’m trying to convey 

imagain your at a rugby field and someone is waiting for you and you are running towards him and the attacker knew you were coming his way but then you stepped him.

the attacker knew you were comming his way but he didn’t know that you were gonna step him. 

Apply that analogy. 

How can we reconcile freewell while God knows that you were gonna take that particular action?  If take the other option did God not know about it ?

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22 hours ago, Shahrukh K said:

19:71. And there is none among you who He will not pass through (experience) Hell! This is, by your Rabb, a definite decree.

This very existence is hell.
You were happy in nothingness because there you do not exist, But suddenly there is a disturbance, an idea/thought.
The idea ‘I am the body’ is the seed of this existence/creation, 
Thus hell/existence only for those who are still holding onto this idea. 
You will remain in this hell until you realize that you are nothing. 
You are no thing, question and answers will be there only in this existence based on "i am the body" idea. On having the firm conviction "i am not the body" you enter the non dual state where neither you nor question  nor answer exist.

so in the afterlife people will continue burning because they will identify with a body and ideas and thoughts? We are talking about dying and living in an afterlife, people being punished for crimes like murder, rape etc.

you haven't addressed the question... why people in the AFTERLIFE will continue to burn and be tortured forever and forever, please read the questions.

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@khamosh21
 

So, the typical theological response to the question is that punishment is self-inflicted (and reward is self-served).  For every action there is a reaction (sort of thing).  Just as dreams manifest our subconscious states of mind in external form, so also (in an analogous way) the punishments of Hell and the rewards of Paradise are but our inward states manifested in external sensory forms.  Furthermore. more refined theologians mention that Hell and Paradise are not two stark and mutually exclusive realities.  It is a gradation of in-betweens.  What this means is that it isn’t an “either” this or “that”.  Your good states and bad states will simply take pleasurable or painful forms at the same time.  People develop several forms simultaneously in “that” realm (as the laws governing that realm are different to the laws that govern this realm).
 

As for how finite time of development (for good or bad) translates to everlasting rewards/punishments.  This is typically responded to by saying that time is quantitive.  It is, however, the qualitative development that is considered.  So, what one will experience in an everlasting manner are simply vices or virtues that have become part of or have developed into the essence of a person or constitution of a person. And for deeds that do not constitute the essence of a person, they simply won’t suffer and bear the rewards everlastingly. 

Can all this be prevented? I don’t really see how it can.  Not if everything is seen in this sort of “mechanistic” and “causally connected” manner.  Think of it like massive machine, if you remove one small part from it, the whole machine collapses or becomes dysfunctional.  The thing about this machine is that it cannot be any other way because this machine is not “separate” from God’s Being.  It “emanates” from God like how sunlight or sun-rays emanate from the Sun Itself.
 

The whole trajectory of mankind, the whole system of “felicity” and “wretchedness”, are but what results from the Being of God.  God is neither “wretched” nor “felicitous”, these are attributes that belong to the projected order of creation, a creation that operates causally (via the duality and opposition of cause and effect) and through oppositions of every kind.  God in Himself (the source of the projection of light vs darkness) is beyond this binary opposition.  God can be called Absolute Light, but He can equally be called Absolute Darkness inasmuch as He is not any of the relative lights.  Or you can say, the intensity of His Absolute Light is Blindingly Dark).  The point is that the Source is beyond relative light and beyond relative darkness.  Although God in Himself is beyond light and beyond darkness, relative to the being that lives in the projected illusion of opposition between light and dark or between felicity and wretchedness, there is a movement or a trajectory in either this direction or that direction.  And so, if there is a movement, it should be towards something the procures felicity and keeps one away from wretchedness.  

Edited by eThErEaL
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There was a nice discussion on Facebook about eternal hellfire. The guy arguing against eternal hellfire being in Islam (“Swami Raza”) made the following points. I have to say, it is a tempting perspective, but Allah is The Wise, The Knowing, at the end of the day:

Quote

So, as it has been seen so far; we can compartmentalize the arguments of the proponents of eternal hell in following categories

 

1- Qur'an saying there are people who will eternally reside in hell

2- Ahadith saying people will eternally reside in hell

3- Nasibis will not enter heaven. 

 

The structure of Quranic verses and Ahadith is shaped according to the sapiential level of the milieu Imams and Prophet were living in. Each person has a different sapiential level. There are worshipers who only submit before the Divine only for the purpose of avoiding excruciating punishment of hell. There are also worshipers who submit before the Divine only for the purpose of gaining eternal pleasures of heaven. Therefore, there are different types of worshipers and they stand on different sapiential level. The Qur'anic verses and Ahadith talking of the eternal punishment of hell in fact are strong caveats to rein in the animalistic instincts of such people. The purpose of such Quranic verses and Ahadith is to instill fear into the hearts of such people so that they don't manifest their animalistic nature. Our Ahadith have reiterated many times that prophets and imams always address their addressees according to their sapiential level. This is the reason we have sundry categories of Ahadith , exoteric , esoteric and esoteric of the esoteric. 

 

........> Nasibis will not enter heaven<.......

 

In order for someone to be a nasibi, he must have nasb in his heart in first place. If there is no nasb in his soul then such a person can no longer be a nasibi. Hell will remove nasb from an impure soul. After the removal of nasb only then it will be allowed to enter heaven. Hence, we are in agreement here that no nasibi will enter heaven. 

 

Now here are my some questions for the proponents of eternal hell theory :

 

"I will inflict My punishment on whom I will; BUT MY MERCY ENCOMPASSES ALL THINGS.” {Qur'an 7:156}

 

The verse palpably says that the Divine Mercy encompasses ALL THINGS. "ALL THINGS" include the dwellers of hell too. This verse establishes the gospel truth that the nature of Divine Mercy is to ENCOMPASS and not to EXCLUDE. Then how can the dwellers of hell remain deprived from the Mercy of Divine for eternity? 

 

"O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah . Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful." {Qur'an 39:53}

 

This verse also explicitly establishes the very fact that there is no sin that cannot be reformed because the verse says "GOD FORGIVES ALL THE SINS". How this verse resonates with the concept of eternal damnation because if there is something or some sin that leads someone to eternal damnation then it will refute this verse because that will establish that there are sins that Allah never forgives which will be in total contradiction to this verse. So, how do the brothers and sisters reconcile this verse with the concept of eternal hell ?

 

..........> The argument of rationality<..........

 

when I contemplate on the theory of eternal hell then I am unable to fathom the wisdom and rationality behind punishing a person for eternity. what good does it bring and how does it benefit someone? A person getting barbecued for eternity. It does not make any sense. It does not sound rational.

 

On the contrary , when we contemplate on the theory of temporary hell or a reformative hell then it is not abstruse to decipher the Divine Sagacity behind it and it is something that conforms with our rational faculty. A reformative hell is producing purified souls. The production of purified souls is Good in essence and it is benefiting the very soul that needs Reformation. So, how the theory of reformative hell is not more rational than the theory of eternal hell? 

 

I hope answers to these points will be provided in academic manner.

 

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On 6/24/2020 at 7:46 PM, khamosh21 said:

so in the afterlife people will continue burning because they will identify with a body and ideas and thoughts? We are talking about dying and living in an afterlife, people being punished for crimes like murder, rape etc.

you haven't addressed the question... why people in the AFTERLIFE will continue to burn and be tortured forever and forever, please read the questions.

why do people continue to go back to evil after they have tasted its burn? this idea that Hell is just some fire you sit in eternally and it just stays like a frozen movie scene is the idea people have of the afterlife, but its not like that at all, Hell is also a journey, in Hell people will climb out of their tortures , will rip away from their punishment and be allowed to run or climb or whatever but eventually they will reach a point where they will fall back down again which will be reminiscent of their life how they repeated their sins, where they did evil felt its burn(all evil no matter how small or big you feel its effects in this life ie you drink alcohol you get hungover and suffer its consequence because God said there is no GOODNESS in evil, you dont do evil and get away better with it, it hurts you either spiritually mentally or physically or all )

there is a few things to consider

first) change of state and mind and soul is only possible in this life , if you never reach heaven you wont know the path to heaven , the path to heaven or map to heaven is etched into the soul in this life, the chances for a person to attain this is repeatedly given in this life , Quran says that Hell is for those WHO STUBBORNLY resist goodness and STUBBORNLY insist on evil , and always return back to their evil , eventually there comes a point where that is all they know, they walk willingly into pain and suffering ie look at drug addicts or extreme alcoholics or any addiction that is evil even addiction that is not evil ie eating(technically ) people know its wrong people know its bad, they hate themselves for doing it, and always say "i have to stop etc" but does that stop them from going back to it? sometimes it does for a while but they go back , sometimes they find enablers and always have them around etc point is they know its bad they know it hurts them they know it costs them but yet they return to it because they have made a habit out of it, and they choose not to let it go 

and the final nail in the coffin is when the devil is allowed by God to make their evil seem good, like it says in the quran the devil makes their evil actions fair seeming and accentuates it to them , so that it is made to appear to them as if it is good, but this happens after a person reaches a certain point of no return ,where they willingly want to be there and then the pain is reversed and they become numb to it, and if they try to return from this point they get pain so now they have to patiently endure pain to get out of it or stay in their place, it is a point of very hard return

this is not God's fault, God gives people chance after chance after chance after guidance after guidance after guidance, but people choose to reject that all their lives , thats their choice their fault, and in reality Hell that is served to them is just a repetition of their life

Quran says the afterlife you will be served what you did , its not like God creates some place to creatively torture you, no God just removes the veils and your life your habits your choices your insisting way becomes your eternal repetition

what you do here echos in eternity forever , its that simple, an alcoholic that drank all his life and refused to stop even though it hurt him and his family and those around him, he will just be served his life back to himself, the only difference is that it wont be hidden behind the veils of this life it will be served in in true pure form , which is evil in nature , you hurt yourself with alcohol then really alcohol will be served as fire drink because thats what it is , even in this life it hurts you but in next life it will be even more pure in its nature and essence ie pain and fire

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On 4/28/2020 at 9:26 AM, khamosh21 said:

Had God wanted, He can create simulations or fake copies of people that He knows will go to hell. Then He creates real eternal souls that He knows will go to heaven. Then we have this test of this world, where real souls going to heaven interact with "fake" souls that are mere tests and expire upon death - thus eliminating any need for hell and torture.

Could've, should've, would've, brother.

If white people were black, they would have been African. If cats could fly, they would be birds. These are your arguments with interchanged variables. If you do not think there is any need for Hell and torture, then there is no need for reward and punishment - what life is based around. The essence of life is reward and punishment, when it boils down to black and white, the essence, no? If you don't work, you don't get paid. What's the punishment in this? No house, no job, no income, etc. On the flip side, if you work, you get paid. You're rewarded with being independent, able to eat, buy a house, etc. The very essence of life is reward and punishment. If you disagree with this, then don't work. Don't do anything that will give you income, because this concept is what you're arguing against. The reason why Allah punishes is due to this very idea. You can disagree, but ensure that your reasons for disagreeing aren't coinciding with your actions that you do on a day-to-day basis. As for the other points, I don't believe in what the Shi'a believe. Perhaps you could use something you disagree with from our side. 

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9 hours ago, theEndIsNear said:

why do people continue to go back to evil after they have tasted its burn? this idea that Hell is just some fire you sit in eternally and it just stays like a frozen movie scene is the idea people have of the afterlife, but its not like that at all, Hell is also a journey, in Hell people will climb out of their tortures , will rip away from their punishment and be allowed to run or climb or whatever but eventually they will reach a point where they will fall back down again which will be reminiscent of their life how they repeated their sins, where they did evil felt its burn(all evil no matter how small or big you feel its effects in this life ie you drink alcohol you get hungover and suffer its consequence because God said there is no GOODNESS in evil, you dont do evil and get away better with it, it hurts you either spiritually mentally or physically or all )

there is a few things to consider

first) change of state and mind and soul is only possible in this life , if you never reach heaven you wont know the path to heaven , the path to heaven or map to heaven is etched into the soul in this life, the chances for a person to attain this is repeatedly given in this life , Quran says that Hell is for those WHO STUBBORNLY resist goodness and STUBBORNLY insist on evil , and always return back to their evil , eventually there comes a point where that is all they know, they walk willingly into pain and suffering ie look at drug addicts or extreme alcoholics or any addiction that is evil even addiction that is not evil ie eating(technically ) people know its wrong people know its bad, they hate themselves for doing it, and always say "i have to stop etc" but does that stop them from going back to it? sometimes it does for a while but they go back , sometimes they find enablers and always have them around etc point is they know its bad they know it hurts them they know it costs them but yet they return to it because they have made a habit out of it, and they choose not to let it go 

and the final nail in the coffin is when the devil is allowed by God to make their evil seem good, like it says in the quran the devil makes their evil actions fair seeming and accentuates it to them , so that it is made to appear to them as if it is good, but this happens after a person reaches a certain point of no return ,where they willingly want to be there and then the pain is reversed and they become numb to it, and if they try to return from this point they get pain so now they have to patiently endure pain to get out of it or stay in their place, it is a point of very hard return

this is not God's fault, God gives people chance after chance after chance after guidance after guidance after guidance, but people choose to reject that all their lives , thats their choice their fault, and in reality Hell that is served to them is just a repetition of their life

Quran says the afterlife you will be served what you did , its not like God creates some place to creatively torture you, no God just removes the veils and your life your habits your choices your insisting way becomes your eternal repetition

what you do here echos in eternity forever , its that simple, an alcoholic that drank all his life and refused to stop even though it hurt him and his family and those around him, he will just be served his life back to himself, the only difference is that it wont be hidden behind the veils of this life it will be served in in true pure form , which is evil in nature , you hurt yourself with alcohol then really alcohol will be served as fire drink because thats what it is , even in this life it hurts you but in next life it will be even more pure in its nature and essence ie pain and fire

i really like your explanation... it can serve well in explaining the causes behind suffering in this world and the next. my question though really is, why? what is the purpose behind all of this and this strange existence of pain and pleasure? why create anything that can cause itself so much pain (or even so much pleasure)?

elsewhere in this thread ive also questioned the extreme forms of torture that God has created (even if they are a result of our own actions) ... seems really psychotic to me.

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2 hours ago, Nightclaw said:

Could've, should've, would've, brother.

If white people were black, they would have been African. If cats could fly, they would be birds. These are your arguments with interchanged variables. If you do not think there is any need for Hell and torture, then there is no need for reward and punishment - what life is based around. The essence of life is reward and punishment, when it boils down to black and white, the essence, no? If you don't work, you don't get paid. What's the punishment in this? No house, no job, no income, etc. On the flip side, if you work, you get paid. You're rewarded with being independent, able to eat, buy a house, etc. The very essence of life is reward and punishment. If you disagree with this, then don't work. Don't do anything that will give you income, because this concept is what you're arguing against. The reason why Allah punishes is due to this very idea. You can disagree, but ensure that your reasons for disagreeing aren't coinciding with your actions that you do on a day-to-day basis. As for the other points, I don't believe in what the Shi'a believe. Perhaps you could use something you disagree with from our side. 

Be hunt or be hunted. yes the very essence of life for us is similar to animals, because that is what we are.

i don't even remember what other points i made that shia believe in different from sunni... will have to go back and look

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1 minute ago, khamosh21 said:

Be hunt or be hunted. yes the very essence of life for us is similar to animals, because that is what we are.

i don't even remember what other points i made that shia believe in different from sunni... will have to go back and look

Take your time. 

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