There is no rational need for hell

[khamosh21]

The only way the average person can come to believe in hell (or heaven), and much of the unseen, is to depend on words of Prophets and saints that have come before us. However there is no real way to prove it right now, right here, this very moment. No one can rise to the challenge and show us anything of the unseen - it is conveniently hidden.

There are some type of rational proofs provided for the existence of hell, mainly to do with God's justice, I present a rational proof here that there is no need for a place like hell to exist where supposedly some of humanity must endure torture for eternity.

1. I will copy paste from another thread that i recently read:

On 9/9/2005 at 6:33 AM, Abu-Sayed said:

Muslims believe that "God is omnisciant", which means that he knows EVERYTHING, INCLUDING the future. If God were not able to know the future, he would be no "God".

So that automatically means that God knows your destiniation even BEFORE he creates you. That means that God knows wether you'll be "good" or "bad" even BEFORE he creates you. And that means that God already knows wether you'll go to hell or heaven, even BEFORE he creates you.

The concept of "free will" is not of importance in this dicussion, because it does not matter wether you "choose" to be bad or good ... in both cases, God knows it already, even BEFORE you make your choice.

Now the question is: what kind of a dirty, ugly, sadist God creates humans just to let them burn in hell?! Although he knows that you're going to be bad and that you're going to burn in hell, he STILL creates you. This is a clear contradiction to the idea that God is "loving".

So, there are only a very few answers to this questions, and only ONE is correct:

- God does NOT KNOW the future, which would mean that he is not "God"

- God is a sadist creature that just creates man to let him brun in hell; God is not "loving"

- THERE IS NO HELL

2. Now I add my own argument to this.

Had God wanted, He can create simulations or fake copies of people that He knows will go to hell. Then He creates real eternal souls that He knows will go to heaven. Then we have this test of this world, where real souls going to heaven interact with "fake" souls that are mere tests and expire upon death - thus eliminating any need for hell and torture.

3. There is an argument used in theology related to why God gave Prophets and Imams ismat (infallibility), it goes like this, He knew that these individuals would be the best among humanity from His knowledge, thus He blessed them with ismat) ... it almost seems as if God is investing in certain individuals, investing amounts of knowledge, and others are receiving very little investments based on God's eternal knowledge).

(4. Justice in my view would be if God rehabilitates all of His creation to Perfection and goodness, for the apparent reason that He created anything)

Thoughts?

[Logic1234]

Is there a rational need of punishment? 

If yes, can punishment be given prior to any deed which require punishment? 

Does knowing something in advance has anything to do with the rational need of reward & punishment? 

[Logic1234]

11 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

what kind of a dirty, ugly, sadist God creates humans just to let them burn in hell?! Although he knows that you're going to be bad and that you're going to burn in hell, he STILL creates you. This is a clear contradiction to the idea that God is "loving".

This argument and stupid statement is only valid if God has created all the humans for burning in hell. But is that the case? 

So who really are those who will be burned in hell? This is something what we need to know. 

The love of mother for her child is an example which cannot be challenged by anyone. Yet we see she punishes her child whenever there is a need. So giving the punishment makes her love for her child null & void? Some times love itself becomes the very reason for the rational need of reward & punishment.   

[gharib570]

The Quranic notion of divine retribution in the end will be ultimately fair. Any injustice will be due to a person's own actions based on their intention. The Quranic hell is reserved for the real criminals, even then, the physical description in the Quran is more of an idea which in reality is nothing like this world - remember the prophets' (عليه السلام) have been commanded to speak to people of all intellects. Keep in mind that these verses will have been talking to bedoiuns over 1400 years ago..

Quran 8:51 Shakir: This is for what your own hands have sent on before, and because Allah is not in the least unjust to the servants;

[khamosh21]

10 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Is there a rational need of punishment? 

If yes, can punishment be given prior to any deed which require punishment? 

Does knowing something in advance has anything to do with the rational need of reward & punishment? 

It would be best if you were to try and address all points as a whole.

I would argue the root cause, the common denominator in all equations is God:

1. Hell is a creation of God.
2. All actions and pathways that lead to hell are a creation of God.
3. God is the one who has created the consequence between an action and it's equivalent outcome e.g. fire = heat, zina = x, these relationships between sins and their punishments are all creations and imaginations of God.
4. Free will which is to be blamed here for all the problems, is a creation of God.

You really have no issue in having women hung up by their hair, people's skins being burnt over and over again while it renews itself etc etc you have no issue in believing that God came up with all of this?

[Logic1234]

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

Had God wanted, He can create simulations or fake copies of people that He knows will go to hell. Then He creates real eternal souls that He knows will go to heaven. Then we have this test of this world, where real souls going to heaven interact with "fake" souls that are mere tests and expire upon death - thus eliminating any need for hell and torture.

Hmmm, Its like saying "had God wanted, He become unjust." Misusing His supreme knowledge for cancelling & making null & void those who are known to refuse his message & signs, those who are known to behead His chosen ones, so is this the divine justice that he let the fake ones kill his real chosen ones?  

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

There is an argument used in theology related to why God gave Prophets and Imams ismat (infallibility), it goes like this, He knew that these individuals would be the best among humanity from His knowledge, thus He blessed them with ismat) ... it almost seems as if God is investing in certain individuals, investing amounts of knowledge, and others are receiving very little investments based on God's eternal knowledge).

To deliver the divine message & for enforcing the divine system of justice in this world, it is very rational that there must exist some who are pure of committing sins & disobeying Him. There is a rational need for such persons who are examples for whole humanity. 

[khamosh21]

9 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

This argument and stupid statement is only valid if God has created all the humans for burning in hell. But is that the case? 

So who really are those who will be burned in hell? This is something what we need to know. 

The love of mother for her child is an example which cannot be challenged by anyone. Yet we see she punishes her child whenever there is a need. So giving the punishment makes her love for her child null & void? Some times love itself becomes the very reason for the rational need of reward & punishment.   

You are taking a very human example and applying it to an All Powerful God. A mother would not punish her child if she had other methods available to discipline them - and God can not be limited... I just don't see the analogy as a valid argument, at least not for me, may work for you.

[khamosh21]

2 minutes ago, Logic1234 said:

Hmmm, Its like saying "had God wanted, He become unjust." Misusing His supreme knowledge for cancelling & making null & void those who are known to refuse his message & signs, those who are known to behead His chosen ones, so is this the divine justice that he let the fake ones kill his real chosen ones?  

To deliver the divine message & for enforcing the divine system of justice in this world, it is very rational that there must exist some who are pure of committing sins & disobeying Him. There is a rational need for such persons who are examples for whole humanity. 

suppose a lion comes and kills a believer - as this lion has no soul, we can argue that there is no punishment/reward for it. imagine if trump and yazeed are just simulations that you have to overcome to attain heaven - and God already knows which souls are able to do this, so He can just manifest that into material reality... why isn't this possible?

yazeed upon death dissapears like our lion - I don't see any reason to insist that he must be punished for eternity to satisfy our urges for revenge and disgust by his actions. His continual existence in pain is God's sign of what exactly? Which attributes of God are on display when you read about the craziest forms of torture in hell?

Another form of complete and equal justice would be to make yazeed suffer everything exactly as everyone that he caused suffering to, and then end his existence forever.

We say God created humans to give them his highest form of Mercy and Love - for the person suffering in hell for eternity - how does this work for them?

Ultimately I don't see any reason for a "test" of human beings. Why there is a test, I feel this has not been explained.

[Logic1234]

4 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

1. Hell is a creation of God.
2. All actions and pathways that lead to hell are a creation of God.
3. God is the one who has created the consequence between an action and it's equivalent outcome e.g. fire = heat, zina = x, these relationships between sins and their punishments are all creations and imaginations of God.
4. Free will which is to be blamed here for all the problems, is a creation of God.

1. Yes it is. And it is the result of supreme divine knowledge. When one knows that some are going to violate the divine laws and some are to accept it, there is a need of punishment & reward accordingly. 

2. Are they the creation of God or is it the fact that God only allowed the actions to happen? For instance, God is the one who causes death, so can we blame Him for the killing of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) and say that the action of Yazeed was not his action? Our dependence on God for any action is not that our actions becomes the creation of God. We are the creators of our actions. 

3. This creation is in accordance to divine knowledge and in a way itself is an evidence for the rational need of reward & punishment. 

4. So you accept, freewill exists. Yes, He indeed has granted us the authority whether we become shakir or kafir. And there has to be rewards for shakir & punishments for kafir. 
 

20 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

You are taking a very human example and applying it to an All Powerful God. A mother would not punish her child if she had other methods available to discipline them - and God can not be limited... I just don't see the analogy as a valid argument, at least not for me, may work for you.

 I see mother & her love too, both as the signs of God. So there is no problem if I am giving you this analogy. Do you think that a mother punish her child without making efforts & without using other options/ways to discipline her child? Some times the punishment itself is the way to discipline.

When you were a child, and you refuses to take food or refuse to go to school, does your mother punishes you for that without trying her best to convince you by every possible means that you should take the food or go to school? You should have remembered that sometimes she just stops answering you just to discipline you. So what you call this behavior of not answering you? Is it not the punishment? 

[Logic1234]

28 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

suppose a lion comes and kills a believer - as this lion has no soul, we can argue that there is no punishment/reward for it.

A lion has a soul, an animal soul. There is always a punishment & reward for each & every action. The killing (death) of that believer itself becomes a reward that he ended up his life in the state of emaan. 
 

31 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

imagine if trump and yazeed are just simulations that you have to overcome to attain heaven - and God already knows which souls are able to do this, so He can just manifest that into material reality... why isn't this possible?

Because there should be some who fail to overcome them. What God would do to them? 

Lets have a look at our "hawa-e-nafs" which are like simulations, are like Yazeed & Trump (as both of them are "taghut"), we are just commanded to overcome and refuse to obey it. What you are implying is that God should have created a system where there is no chance of failure, hence there would be no need of Hell. This is only possible if there is no freewill.   

[Muslim2010]

2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

The only way the average person can come to believe in hell (or heaven), and much of the unseen, is to depend on words of Prophets and saints that have come before us. However there is no real way to prove it right now, right here, this very moment. No one can rise to the challenge and show us anything of the unseen - it is conveniently hidden.

First point is what is unseen? There are many things we can not see like Angels, the happenings in grave after death etc. The death itself cannot be seen just dead body is evidence that every human believes. Thus there are other things that a human cannot see and that are covered under unseen. 

For example  If a person is present in Paris near the Eiffel tower (France) then he cannot physically see Melbourne cricket ground in Australia. This is unseen for him. He may see it online by internet or by calling other person present  at the other location through mobile phone using communication netwrok. Thus the persons needs a mobile on their side and communication network otherwise that is a unseen for these persons. 

The prophets have been given such ability to see the unseen with God permission and  future that an ordinary person otherwise cannot imagine. The same case applies to the other unseen objects like Angels, Paradise , hell and so on. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has called the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to thy and hath shown these hell and paradise and we believe in the words of Almighty as mentioned in quran and hadith. Its because our limited capacity to see the unseen as i have mentioned with the above example we are not able to directly see it. 

[Muslim2010]

3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

2. Now I add my own argument to this.

Had God wanted, He can create simulations or fake copies of people that He knows will go to hell. Then He creates real eternal souls that He knows will go to heaven. Then we have this test of this world, where real souls going to heaven interact with "fake" souls that are mere tests and expire upon death - thus eliminating any need for hell and torture.

The simple question arises here with the words quoted above, Why do we need a Police to enforce law and order the people might have been  forgiven without any punishment for all kinds of crime?

If in this world police has been establsihed for capturing the criminals and keeping them in prison then we should expect as a human that if any one has gone against the guidelines stated by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in the religion should be punished in hell as already informed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) through his prophets and divine books sent  The protected among those books is Quran. There are sin that can be repented and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) acepts repent for minor sin but for the major sin like making partners to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) this  is not tolerable  and it necessitates to be sent to hell as mentioned in quran and hadith.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Muslim2010

[Muslim2010]

3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

3. There is an argument used in theology related to why God gave Prophets and Imams ismat (infallibility), it goes like this, He knew that these individuals would be the best among humanity from His knowledge, thus He blessed them with ismat) ... it almost seems as if God is investing in certain individuals, investing amounts of knowledge, and others are receiving very little investments based on God's eternal knowledge).

The man has been sent as vicegerant of Allah  to live the life as per rules defined by the religion. he has been given free will to adopt the true path or not. The prophet have been selected and chosen for the tasks of conveying the message from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). They conveyed  the message in all circumstances and faced all kind of difficulties  and opression from influential persons in orer to stop  them conveying the message. Butthey carried out the task with the guidance from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

The last of the prophet Muhammad (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has been selected all above other prophets to complete  the message. He and his purified progeny have shown us the example to spread the message of Islam and they lived life according to true teachings of Islam.

[Muslim2010]

3 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

(4. Justice in my view would be if God rehabilitates all of His creation to Perfection and goodness, for the apparent reason that He created anything)

Shakir:

This day every soul shall be rewarded for what it has earned; no injustice (shall be done) this day; surely Allah is quick in reckoning. (40:17)

[Revert1963]

2 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

1. I will copy paste from another thread that i recently read:

On 9/9/2005 at 1:33 PM, Abu-Sayed said:

So, there are only a very few answers to this questions, and only ONE is correct:

- God does NOT KNOW the future, which would mean that he is not "God"

- God is a sadist creature that just creates man to let him brun in hell; God is not "loving"

- THERE IS NO HELL

 

There is also the possibility that the whole argumentation is done from ignorance. God is the allwise. He knows what you know not.
What I would do is to ask Allah to bring me guidance, knowledge and understanding.

I don't know why you all think that Islam has to make sense in a logical way. It doesn't. Any logical argument will in the end have to be based on an axiom that both parties hold to be true. That is why it comes down to belief in the end. As Muslims we must believe that there is no god but Allah and he send his message to all of humanity through his last prophet Muhammed. According to that message, the Quran, hell fire is very much a reality whether we like it or not.

[Cool]

5 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

So, there are only a very few answers to this questions, and only ONE is correct:

- God does NOT KNOW the future, which would mean that he is not "God"

- God is a sadist creature that just creates man to let him brun in hell; God is not "loving"

- THERE IS NO HELL

Surah Al-Ankaboot, Verse 52:
قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِاللَّهِ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَكُمْ شَهِيدًا يَعْلَمُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِالْبَاطِلِ وَكَفَرُوا بِاللَّهِ أُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْخَاسِرُونَ

Say: Allah is sufficient as a witness between me and you; He knows what is in the heavens and the earth. And (as for) those who believe in the falsehood and disbelieve in Allah, these it is that are the losers.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Ankaboot, Verse 53:
وَيَسْتَعْجِلُونَكَ بِالْعَذَابِ وَلَوْلَا أَجَلٌ مُّسَمًّى لَّجَاءَهُمُ الْعَذَابُ وَلَيَأْتِيَنَّهُم بَغْتَةً وَهُمْ لَا يَشْعُرُونَ

And they ask you to hasten on the chastisement; and had not a term been appointed, the chastisement would certainly have come to them; and most certainly it will come to them all of a sudden while they will not perceive.
(English - Shakir)

Surah Al-Ankaboot, Verse 54:
يَسْتَعْجِلُونَكَ بِالْعَذَابِ وَإِنَّ جَهَنَّمَ لَمُحِيطَةٌ بِالْكَافِرِينَ

They ask you to hasten on the chastisement, and most surely hell encompasses the unbelievers;
(English - Shakir)

5 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Now the question is: what kind of a dirty, ugly, sadist God creates humans just to let them burn in hell?! Although he knows that you're going to be bad and that you're going to burn in hell, he STILL creates you. This is a clear contradiction to the idea that God is "loving".

1. As mentioned in above quoted verses, the reason of creating humans was not to burn them in hell. Allah created Adam (عليه السلام) as His caliph on Earth. Allah has created the death & life for test & trial. Those who believe in Him & obey His commands will be placed in Heaven. Hell is only for the disbelievers.

2. God is loving indeed. But whom He loves?

Kafireen, Mushrikeen, Kazibeen, Kha'ineen, Zalimeen, Fasiqeen etc? You will only find the phrase "la yuhib" for all these.

5 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Now I add my own argument to this.

Had God wanted, He can create simulations or fake copies of people that He knows will go to hell. Then He creates real eternal souls that He knows will go to heaven. Then we have this test of this world, where real souls going to heaven interact with "fake" souls that are mere tests and expire upon death - thus eliminating any need for hell and torture.

Unfortunately, the rules of business cannot be made as per your wish. 

We have ones who accept the divine commands and those who rejects. And this is the will of the one who has created this system. So there is a system of reward & punishment. 

Surah An-Najm, Verse 39:
وَأَن لَّيْسَ لِلْإِنسَانِ إِلَّا مَا سَعَىٰ

And that man shall have nothing but what he strives for-
(English - Shakir)

Surah An-Najm, Verse 40:
وَأَنَّ سَعْيَهُ سَوْفَ يُرَىٰ

And that his striving shall soon be seen-
(English - Shakir)

Surah An-Najm, Verse 41:
ثُمَّ يُجْزَاهُ الْجَزَاءَ الْأَوْفَىٰ

Then shall he be rewarded for it with the fullest reward-
(English - Shakir)

5 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

There is an argument used in theology related to why God gave Prophets and Imams ismat (infallibility), it goes like this, He knew that these individuals would be the best among humanity from His knowledge, thus He blessed them with ismat) ... it almost seems as if God is investing in certain individuals, investing amounts of knowledge, and others are receiving very little investments based on God's eternal knowledge).

What you think is the reason of this divine investment? Is it something other than guidance? Is it something other than bringing out people from darkness into light? 

Why not people choose to accept the divine commands so that there would be no reason left for Hell? That would be a "Jabr". So would it be rational to not give the state of the art faculty of reason, the choices & limited freedom?

6 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

His Justice in my view would be if God rehabilitates all of His creation to Perfection and goodness, for the apparent reason that He created anything)

Neither can you comprehend Him nor His justice. 

How can one understand a thing is perfect & good if there is no imperfect or bad present before him? How can one understand justice if there is no concept of injustice present before him? 

I mean to say that the concept of perfection & goodness are absurd if there is no imperfection & badness. The concept of justice becomes absurd if there is no concept of injustice. 

If you always chose to put right thing at a right place & there is no wrong thing & wrong place, your action of putting right thing in a right place is neither justice nor injustice. 

[Muhammed Ali]

8 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

Had God wanted, He can create simulations or fake copies of people that He knows will go to hell. Then He creates real eternal souls that He knows will go to heaven. Then we have this test of this world, where real souls going to heaven interact with "fake" souls that are mere tests and expire upon death - thus eliminating any need for hell and torture.

Except if God did this then He couldn't tell people. Otherwise it would defeat the purpose of the trial. Maybe when you die you will find it to be the case?

BTW I haven't thought through this deeply; it's  just a quick response.

[Guest Talkative_bear]

13 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

The only way the average person can come to believe in hell (or heaven), and much of the unseen, is to depend on words of Prophets and saints that have come before us. However there is no real way to prove it right now, right here, this very moment. No one can rise to the challenge and show us anything of the unseen - it is conveniently hidden.

There are some type of rational proofs provided for the existence of hell, mainly to do with God's justice, I present a rational proof here that there is no need for a place like hell to exist where supposedly some of humanity must endure torture for eternity.

1. I will copy paste from another thread that i recently read:

2. Now I add my own argument to this.

Had God wanted, He can create simulations or fake copies of people that He knows will go to hell. Then He creates real eternal souls that He knows will go to heaven. Then we have this test of this world, where real souls going to heaven interact with "fake" souls that are mere tests and expire upon death - thus eliminating any need for hell and torture.

3. There is an argument used in theology related to why God gave Prophets and Imams ismat (infallibility), it goes like this, He knew that these individuals would be the best among humanity from His knowledge, thus He blessed them with ismat) ... it almost seems as if God is investing in certain individuals, investing amounts of knowledge, and others are receiving very little investments based on God's eternal knowledge).

(4. Justice in my view would be if God rehabilitates all of His creation to Perfection and goodness, for the apparent reason that He created anything)

Thoughts?

1. And, if this had been the case, Prophet (PBUHHP) wouldn't have said:"Every soul is by birth a Muslim" so your first argument is false.

2. Every individual muslim will have ismah in heaven as said by Quran that we will remove every wrong thought from their hearts. Second argument false.

3. Justice has already been done by provision of equal opportunity of choice. Thus, its we who choose heaven or hell and not God. Our construction is peculiar in the sense we provide knowledge to rest of creation as to what happen if we choose course of God or Satan.

[Ali bin Hussein]

14 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

The concept of "free will" is not of importance in this dicussion, because it does not matter wether you "choose" to be bad or good ... in both cases, God knows it already, even BEFORE you make your choice.

It sounds like you already know the answer and that's why *you have set a limit of not discussing free will.

The topic itself comes under predestination

*By using and posting the other users arguments.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Warilla

[guest 2025]

The majority of the people in Hell will be released. In fact, on every day of Ramadan, Allah releases 1 million people from Hell, then on the final day he releases the sum of the people he released in that month. Furthermore, anyone in Hell can just leave, all they have to do is repent. But most won't. And when these people are being taken to Hell, the angels will be amazed and say "How did you even get here with all of God's mercy?"

[khamosh21]

Thank you for the replies, not going to argue with all of you on everything, we all have our own logic it seems.

 I just a have very difficult time loving a God that has created/imagined intense/extreme pain and torture, and all the other evils we live through.

I also don't know why God created us, why He tests us, why an all powerful God would come up with this psychotic system of punishment and reward, life and death, etc.

[83838]

On 4/28/2020 at 1:26 PM, khamosh21 said:

Had God wanted, He can create simulations or fake copies of people that He knows will go to hell. Then He creates real eternal souls that He knows will go to heaven. Then we have this test of this world, where real souls going to heaven interact with "fake" souls that are mere tests and expire upon death - thus eliminating any need for hell and torture.

The way I see it, someone having fake soul means his existence is that of something infinitely close to nothingness, really unimportant thing. So everyone who goes to hell is basically unimportant things

Edited April 29, 2020 by 000

[Logic1234]

23 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

So who really are those who will be burned in hell? This is something what we need to know. 

Qur'an answers this question:
 

Quote

لَا يَصْلَاهَا إِلَّا الْأَشْقَى {15}

[Shakir 92:15] None shall enter it but the most unhappy,
[Pickthal 92:15] Which only the most wretched must endure,
[Yusufali 92:15] None shall reach it but those most unfortunate ones

This chapter further defines the term "Ashqa"

الَّذِي كَذَّبَ وَتَوَلَّىٰ
Who give the lie to Truth and turn their backs.

[khamosh21]

If there is a God, then technically we are all just simulations, i.e. possibilities in His Reality/Existence, means we are simulated, including anything with a possible existence.

Which really goes back to why was this simulation created this way and what it says about the Creator (as mentioned in the post above this one written by me)

[83838]

7 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

If there is a God, then technically we are all just simulations, i.e. possibilities in His Reality/Existence, means we are simulated, including anything with a possible existence.

Which really goes back to why was this simulation created this way and what it says about the Creator (as mentioned in the post above this one written by me)

I don't find what you are writing is false to me.. but I sense you are missing something.

I think it has something to do with this:

 

Edited April 29, 2020 by 000

[Logic1234]

1 hour ago, khamosh21 said:

I just a have very difficult time loving a God that has created/imagined intense/extreme pain and torture, and all the other evils we live through.

Whatever is created by God is all good (khayr). It is the creation who creates intense/extreme pain and torture and all other evils for themselves. Examples, envy, gheebah, bribe, withholding and keeping the wealth or rights of orphans etc. Every effect whether everlasting blessed life or everlasting painful life & torture is a result of our actions.  

 

[Hadi5]

On 4/28/2020 at 12:55 PM, Logic1234 said:

Is there a rational need of punishment? 

If yes, can punishment be given prior to any deed which require punishment? 

Does knowing something in advance has anything to do with the rational need of reward & punishment? 

Salam.

Brother would you let your dear ones( father or son) to go in a situation ,where you are 100% sure that they are going to be perished or destroyed.?

[Hadi5]

2 hours ago, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

Only a person who does not Believe in God at All would remain in it for ever, I am pretty sure
(Warning, do not use this as a excuse or something. One second in Hell is worse than ................................................ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
(Fear and Have Hope of His Pardon, equally)

When Allah already knows that these persons are not going to believe.

So Allah could have not created them.That would be blessing on them.

[313_Waiter]

12 hours ago, guest 2025 said:

Furthermore, anyone in Hell can just leave

Is there any evidence for this from the Qur’an / Ahadith?

 

[Ibn Al-Shahid]

Quote

what kind of a dirty, ugly, sadist God creates humans just to let them burn in hell?!

God cannot be a sadist; God does not have senses. Since God does not have senses/emotions, what He implements is the utmost rationality. This argument above uses emotional language: "ugly" "dirty" "sadist". Not a good way to debate. This is essentially what lawyers do to prey on the jury's feelings.

Quote

Although he knows that you're going to be bad and that you're going to burn in hell, he STILL creates you.

Did you forget basic human nature? Humans do not believe until they experience it themselves. If you put someone directly in hell without putting them in the trial they'll complain about "you didn't test me".

Quote

This is a clear contradiction to the idea that God is "loving"

"Love" is a very abstract word. It's not used frequently in our books. I think you mean merciful more than loving. Every Surah begins with بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم to emphasize Allah's mercy. You had a lifetime to repent, why didn't you? Why are you blaming God for your actions? You say free will doesn't matter but your argument revolves around it. There is a hadith that states on judgement day Allah's mercy is so encompassing that you'll be slapping your face at what the people of hell did to be sent to it.

Quote

3. There is an argument used in theology related to why God gave Prophets and Imams ismat (infallibility), it goes like this, He knew that these individuals would be the best among humanity from His knowledge, thus He blessed them with ismat) ... it almost seems as if God is investing in certain individuals, investing amounts of knowledge, and others are receiving very little investments based on God's eternal knowledge).

I believe I read that the Prophets and Imams have the ability to sin, but do not. So I'm not sure your argument is correct or truthful.

Quote

(4. Justice in my view would be if God rehabilitates all of His creation to Perfection and goodness, for the apparent reason that He created anything)

that's not justice, that's a circus.We don't need prophets because we have brains. Allah is extremely merciful that he gave us prophets so that we wouldn't have an excuse. It seems that your issue is responsibility. You don't want to be responsible for your actions.

[hasanhh]

2 hours ago, Ibn Al-Shahid said:

  Quote

what kind of a dirty, ugly, sadist God creates humans just to let them burn in hell?!

Strange question. How many people grew tobacco just do it can burn.

[layman]

Salam,

In this world we can taste heaven and hell (lesser in term of severity ) due to own choices and actions.  Everyone has taste it. The hereafter is exactly the same, we will taste heaven and hell as the results of our current choices and actions, except the severity is more because we have been warned about it before we die.

1.  Do good in this world, then heaven is waiting for us as reward in the hereafter.

2.  Make hell for self and others in this world, then more severe hell is waiting for us.

We have the choice to take path of 1) or 2) or combination of 1) or 2).

Take your pick.  Heaven or hell is just directly infront of us NOW, waiting for us to choose.

No unjust can be attributed to God, because we make choices NOW in our life time.

@khamosh21 and all of us...can we all not seeing our future is heaven or hell that is waiting for us? Yes we can see.  At this very moment, just flash back our past and current choices that we have made.  We should see whether the heaven or hell to befall on us in the hereafter.  If we really don't see it, then we don't understand God's justice and Greatness.  Then we are totally loss.  Wait!  Wait! We are not loss, we choose to ignore God and we make that choice.  Why do we have to blame God.

May God show us to the right path.

Layman.

 

[Hadi5]

34 minutes ago, Mohammed-Mehdi said:

The problem is with them, not Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Who Loves them more than their mothers and asks very little from them

That is fine.If mother already knows that in this trial there kid is going to persih.

Will she put her children in that trial.

[power]

19 minutes ago, Hadi5 said:

That is fine.If mother already knows that in this trial there kid is going to persih.

Will she put her children in that trial.

As you are using the analogy of mothers, mothers will always guide their children, regardless of the consequences. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has sent many guides for humanity some will believe others won't. Some children will adhere to their parents guide and some won't.  Parents cannot be blamed for those who have gone astray as long as they tried to teach the etiquettes from wrong and right. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says people will not be burden by others. 

Parents when they are honoured with children, they are also put on trial, it's not just the children the parents also bound by duties to be fulfilled, the same way Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has duties to guide mankind.  

Every believer and non believer, has a choice in relation to free will. The question is did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) create non believers? And the answer would be no. I believe every individual is created as a believer, and then through free will they chose their own path.

[MartyS]

On 4/28/2020 at 1:26 AM, khamosh21 said:

 

(4. Justice in my view would be if God rehabilitates all of His creation to Perfection and goodness, for the apparent reason that He created anything)

Thoughts?

If I were a sheet of paper, living in my two-dimension world, I would not understand your three-dimension world. Similarly, as a created three-dimension being, I cannot understand God, how He can be predestinating and a giver of free-will; all good and all just; needing nothing and desiring fellowship with mankind. But those limitations on my part do not keep me from trusting God, even with my eternal soul, and believing everything about Him that He has chosen to reveal in His Word and through His Son, Jesus. (Obviously, these are my Christian beliefs!  )

Here are some of the understandings I have gleaned...

#1. God does desire to rehabilitate all His creation: 

The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. - 2 Peter 3:9

#2. In His omnisciece, God does foreknow our destiny and even records our days before there are any of them in His Book of Life:

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?'
40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
44 Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?'
45 Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.'
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." - Matthew 25:31-46

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1:3-14

And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:15

Edited April 29, 2020 by MartyS