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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is deception allowed in Da'wah?

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In Twelver Shi'ism, is it allowed to use arguments one knows to be weak, deleting valid and unbiased refutations of arguments in comments sections of videos or imply that other beliefs have a fault in something that they themselves believe in order to incline the other person to Twelverism?

The reason I ask is because there is a particular "Da'wah" or polemical group which I have witnessed do this time and again, so I am left asking the question: is this something which is a valid form of Da'wah according to Twelver scholars or does it simply mean that Twelverism cannot stand on its own two legs without having to deceive ignorant Sunnis?

Edited by Ar.alhindi
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34 minutes ago, realizm said:

Talking about deceiving people, look at your own thread.

I swear by Allah I am not lying and I am telling the truth regarding this - it is Ramadhan and I am fasting and do not intend to sin. I do have a screenshoted example however last time I made a thread about this particular organisation and named them and the individuals, it was hidden from public view because it involved exposing that one/two of their members used a Sunni they were trying to convert for Mu'tah which would obviously reflect badly on Twelver Da'wah, so I have not shared it yet as it would name them and risk getting deleted by the mods here.

Edited by Ar.alhindi
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23 minutes ago, Ar.alhindi said:

I swear by Allah I am not lying and I am telling the truth regarding this

That's not the issue. The issue is that what you are saying isn't restricted to Twelver daw'ah groups.
e.g. I could have anecdotally experienced the following:

47 minutes ago, Ar.alhindi said:

In Sunnism, is it allowed to use arguments one knows to be weak, deleting valid and unbiased refutations of arguments in comments sections of videos or imply that other beliefs have a fault in something that they themselves believe in order to incline the other person to Sunnism?

The reason I ask is because there is a particular "Da'wah" or polemical group which I have witnessed do this time and again, so I am left asking the question: is this something which is a valid form of Da'wah according to Sunni scholars or does it simply mean that Sunnism cannot stand on its own two legs without having to deceive ignorant Shias?

Ironically, dawah is heavilty restricted for Twelvers to begin with. On the flipside, if only you knew how much Sunnis lie about Shias in their dawah, it's incredible, it's like an olympic sport.

Anyways, Your question begs for ridiculous speculation.

Here is my ridiculous speculation:
Dunning-Kruger effect (see below)? Perhaps the trough allows you to see the vast similarities in groups, the nuances, the false appeals to modernity, etc. But, perhaps you do have to simply things down for laymen who are heavily influenced by culture and modernity. Further, such harsh divisions (Sunni -- Shia ... with no overlap) could have sociological and psychological benefits to their respective communities (e.g. knowing who you can trust for aqaed questions -- a possible layman issue where if our laws supposedly don't manifest differently, then what is the problem with looking towards their theology for guidance rather than our own [idk I just made it up]), though it could also cause other problems... but this is a whole other discussion altogether. Dunning-Kruger effect – Agile Coffee

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2 minutes ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

That's not the issue. The issue is that what you are saying isn't restricted to Twelver daw'ah groups.
e.g. I could have anecdotally experienced the following:

Ironically, dawah is heavilty restricted for Twelvers to begin with. On the flipside, if only you knew how much Sunnis lie about Shias in their dawah, it's incredible, it's like an olympic sport.

Anyways, Your question begs for ridiculous speculation.

Here is my ridiculous speculation:
Dunning-Kruger effect (see below)? Perhaps the trough allows you to see the vast similarities in groups, the nuances, the false appeals to modernity, etc. But, perhaps you do have to simply things down for laymen who are heavily influenced by culture and modernity. Further, such harsh divisions (Sunni -- Shia ... with no overlap) could have sociological and psychological benefits to their respective communities (e.g. knowing who you can trust for aqaed questions -- a possible layman issue where if our laws supposedly don't manifest differently, then what is the problem with looking towards their theology for guidance rather than our own [idk I just made it up]), though it could also cause other problems... but this is a whole other discussion altogether. Dunning-Kruger effect – Agile Coffee

Not sure how this addresses my OP lol

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1 hour ago, Ar.alhindi said:

In Twelver Shi'ism, is it allowed to use arguments one knows to be weak, deleting valid and unbiased refutations of arguments in comments sections of videos or imply that other beliefs have a fault in something that they themselves believe in order to incline the other person to Twelverism?

Brother in a recent one of threads some questions were asked and you were not able to return logical / appropriate answers to those except with bunch of allegations that you come with mostly blaming the 12vers. 

Your questions need elaboration that how the arguments in a discussion are considered as weak if they are inline with Quran, hadith and logic? wasalam

Edited by Muslim2010
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4 hours ago, Ar.alhindi said:

In Twelver Shi'ism, is it allowed to use arguments one knows to be weak, deleting valid and unbiased refutations of arguments in comments sections of videos or imply that other beliefs have a fault in something that they themselves believe in order to incline the other person to Twelverism?

The reason I ask is because there is a particular "Da'wah" or polemical group which I have witnessed do this time and again, so I am left asking the question: is this something which is a valid form of Da'wah according to Twelver scholars or does it simply mean that Twelverism cannot stand on its own two legs without having to deceive ignorant Sunnis?

I would consider deception/ deceitfulness in the books that are considered "Sahih" With regards to a polemical discussion whether its based upon a Mursal hadith or a fabricated narration, the opponent has the option to reject it.

Where as the issue of Sahih books you have to accept its regardless of its authenticity, which far more problematic for the masses. 

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6 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Brother in a recent one of threads some questions were asked and you were not able to return logical / appropriate answers to those except with bunch of allegations that you come with mostly blaming the 12vers. 

Your questions need elaboration that how the arguments in a discussion are considered as weak if they are inline with Quran, hadith and logic? wasalam

It has nothing to do with my arguments here - it was a very obvious lie that was presented by this Twelver Da'wah group in question (which any rational person could agree with Sunni or Shia) that I called out, and they blocked me from commenting on their YouTube channel on 3 seperate accounts posting a very simple refutation (since it was a very obvious lie), and kept only anti-Sunnism comments. They had the cheek to also post that "any comments not related to the video will be removed"; when you comment about the video, unless it supports underminding Sunni Islam, it is removed. Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't care, but since it is actually a known team, I expected better.

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4 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

No brother as far as I'm aware such things are not considered valid or permissible. Furthermore I don't see the point in it, because if a person enters a belief through deception then they will most likely leave it once they realize they were deceived. 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide us all

JazakAllahu Khairan

I think you are the only person who has bothered to address my question rather than making indirect attacks at Sunnism, so thank you. 

I agree

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1 hour ago, Ar.alhindi said:

JazakAllahu Khairan

I think you are the only person who has bothered to address my question rather than making indirect attacks at Sunnism, so thank you. 

I agree

Did you really expect to recieve a different answer than what Mahdavist said?

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18 hours ago, Ar.alhindi said:

In Twelver Shi'ism, is it allowed to use arguments one knows to be weak, deleting valid and unbiased refutations of arguments in comments sections of videos or imply that other beliefs have a fault in something that they themselves believe in order to incline the other person to Twelverism?

The reason I ask is because there is a particular "Da'wah" or polemical group which I have witnessed do this time and again, so I am left asking the question: is this something which is a valid form of Da'wah according to Twelver scholars or does it simply mean that Twelverism cannot stand on its own two legs without having to deceive ignorant Sunnis?

Surah al-Baqara ayat 256

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17 hours ago, Ar.alhindi said:

It has nothing to do with my arguments here - it was a very obvious lie that was presented by this Twelver Da'wah group in question (which any rational person could agree with Sunni or Shia) that I called out, and they blocked me from commenting on their YouTube channel on 3 seperate accounts posting a very simple refutation (since it was a very obvious lie), and kept only anti-Sunnism comments. They had the cheek to also post that "any comments not related to the video will be removed"; when you comment about the video, unless it supports underminding Sunni Islam, it is removed. Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't care, but since it is actually a known team, I expected better.

Some personal experience with a X or Y group does not represent the response of all community whom  you always blame like 12vers in your posts.

Brothers Mahdavist and Gaius i. Cesar have well clarified the point. wasalam 

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without having any background in Islamic law or jurisprudence other than what I have gleaned through posts on this forum and what I read from the Qur'an when I was locked down in jail for the past 20 or so days, I can assure you that lying to someone in order for "you" or "your masjid" to score a new member(hypothetically speaking, the royal "you") is absolutely not allowed at all, because lying is a sin & Allah not only needs nothing from you to grow the Muslim community, but that he certainly will not use immorality & sin to do so.

He's chosen who he has chosen. You cant do a thing to change that and neither can I.

Edited by GD41586
added "to score a new member" so that my statement makes more sense
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