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In the Name of God بسم الله

Homosexuality

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On 5/11/2020 at 7:56 PM, gayboyanon said:

Ok, good to know you're not one of the people that says that gay sex is haram because it's adultery.

Oh, but then you can't say: "Straight people are in the same position because they have to control their desires". But they're allowed to find love, they're allowed to satisfy their desires eventually, but gay people aren't allowed to have a loving marriage? So remember, you're not allowed to say that straight people have to control their desires too, because it's not the same. At all.

Ok everyone of us is in the same position. We are not inffalible and we all have our vices.

Now option 1 we all just moan about how it's difficult and "we were born that way" or born in to certain poverty or social circumstances etc. And then try and get the rules changed.

Option 2 We admit we are wrong. We seek forgiveness and try to better ourselves. 

Everyman has been given a way to satisfy his desires. Thats getting married to women.

If you desire other than women, eg another man, animal, or desire to abuse. You can choose option 1 or 2.

First be humble and admit your desire is wrong.

If you can't admit you have a problem. Ask why you can't. 

Shaiytan argued he was made from fire. And he was better than Adam. All the excuses were pointless. The problem was his EGO.

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On 5/11/2020 at 7:52 AM, gayboyanon said:

How did you come to the conclusion that being attracted to someone is an act you can control?

Wot. Nobody says gay people are more important than straight people.

What do you even mean by that?

You do realise what you're saying, right? And how ridiculous it sounds?

Being gay

There's a very simple way to make it not adultery. Allow gay marriage in the Muslim world.

Yes, numbers are increasing because people have more courage to come out because of the growing support. It can only be a good thing. Because gay people getting married to a woman, I get it, but it does more harm than good:

1) They're in a loveless marriage. The woman is marrying someone who can never love her the same way she loves him, or the way another man can, and they won't be as happy because of it

2) And what if they have kids? They might notice that the parents are unhappy, and worse, what if the gay guy winds up hating his kid because of what the kid represents? There might be unhappy, or worse abusive marriages that come about from gay people marrying the opposite gender. So you either are proposing they do that, which, terrible idea, or you're proposing they never be allowed to find love.

This is what I wish more Muslims would think about. The Imams and Prophet treated everyone with respect. They would never call a gay person evil or Satanic. They would try to talk to them. And they'd never force them to give up sinning. Remember that one hadith of the guy who went to one of the Prophets or Imams and they didn't tell him to stop. They just told him not to lie. There was never any judgement. Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein who showed the guy how to do wudhoo properly by pretending they wanted to know which of them did wudhoo better, so that the guy they were showing wouldn't feel awkward. Prophet Mohammed, who treated his enemies with respect, who still looked after their stuff even though they hated him.

Anyone who says that the Prophet and Imams would support the hatred of gay people, even gay Muslims, is either a liar or foolish. They would treat everyone with respect, and they wouldn't force anyone to change. And they wouldn't support the disowning of children for being gay. And they would help those who are suffering with depression or something. Maybe they'd try to convince them to not do sodomy, but they would never let that refusal stop them from trying to help. I ask everyone on this thread to listen to Green Knight. Think about what the Prophet and Imams would do.

why dont you reveal yourself. Which actual member of this forum are you?

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On 5/12/2020 at 4:13 AM, Warilla said:

Option 2 We admit we are wrong. We seek forgiveness and try to better ourselves. 

Wrong for what? Wrong for being gay? I think the only people in the wrong are those who are homophobic.  

On 5/12/2020 at 7:40 AM, BowTie said:

why dont you reveal yourself. Which actual member of this forum are you?

Like the guy who clearly wants to harrass me.

On 5/12/2020 at 4:13 AM, Warilla said:

Now option 1 we all just moan about how it's difficult

Ah, so you never complain about how it's difficult living as a Muslim. Muslims face Islamophobic attacks, gay people face homophobic attacks. Yes, it is right to try to get more respect for gay people, because, you know, people get kicked out of their house for being gay, face harassment from the Muslim community. Oh, and let's not forget the suicides as a result of homophobic bullying. How dare you try to imply that life is easy for gay people.

On 5/12/2020 at 4:13 AM, Warilla said:

Everyman has been given a way to satisfy his desires.

You literally said the sentence after that's not true. Because gay people don't.

On 5/12/2020 at 4:13 AM, Warilla said:

First be humble and admit your desire is wrong.

It's nothing to do with humbleness. For example, I don't see you also calling out harassment against gay people because homophobic people have a real problem. Oh, and how is it wrong to be gay? To like guys instead of girls? Are you going to explain that? Seriously dude, you're comparing me to Satan because I don't think I'm a monster for being gay. I'm not the one with the problem man.

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17 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

1) Ah, so you never complain about how it's difficult living as a Muslim.

2)Oh, and how is it wrong to be gay?

1) no I don't I'm very thankful. Being born Muslim is awesome.

2) Because Allah says it's wrong in Qur'an and hadith 

If you don't agree it's wrong then fine. That means God's on your side. Find a religion/community that accepts you. Why are you looking for acceptance from fallible humans who are "homophobic"

It's big world out there. Be free be gay don't try to impose your values on us backward Muslims. 

The rest of us muslims will be humble and continue to repent for our sins. And teach the next generation homosexual relationships are wrong.

Edited by Warilla
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17 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

OK, there are some things I can handle, but surely saying that gay people deserve to suffer the same punishment as Lut's people, that they deserve to suffer, and he said all gay people, not just people who have had gay sex. Like, it's not the same as calling for gay people to be killed, but it's still pretty terrible and serious hate speech.

In context, he said "a gay" because you refuse to seperate "homosexual" from homosexuality in most circumstances.

9 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

It's no excuse to be outright hateful.

Explain what is "hateful". Is this another baseless appeal to modernity? Hate speech?

God made life a test for us. We must pass these tests to seek closeness to God. No matter how difficult the test is, God has guaranteed us the ability to pass His tests.

It would be "hate speech" to say that someone who hasn't commited any sin is in hellfire, e.g. someone with gay inclinations who didn't act on such inclinations or who repented. We have free will. We are responsible for our actions.

9 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

Ah, you're one of those forced marriages people who think people should marry for political reasons, aren't you? What other reason is there to get married except for love?

You know forced marriages are Haram. And you know arranged marriages is totally irrelevant here. Who marries for "political reasons" what does that even mean?
It all makes no sense. We marry because it is a command from God. You're talking about picking someone for marriage. I.e. marrying someone you love. Which implies that this individual got to know that person for a significant amount of time, e.g. through Western dating. Now, I know you're gonna bring up Mutah. But, Mutah is marriage.
It may be "unequal" but so what? You're wrongfully assuming an epistemic value in equality/egalitarianism because of the culture or social climate we live in.
Now, how do we pick our spouse in Islam? Based on their piety and 'testimony' (I use this word loosely) of their friends regarding their characteristics/personality traits and actions etc. Love is something that takes time. You learn to love someone through marriage. 

Edit: Also, I sincerely ask the people of this forum not to change God's laws even if they are sinning (most all of us have commited sexual sins I assume).

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
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 It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding. (3:7)

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On 5/13/2020 at 11:46 PM, GD41586 said:

And yes: life in the West is extremely easy for gay people because the liberals and leftists in the society worship sex as a god and are willing to use the law to enshrine homosexuality

Sorry, that doesn't make it easy for people like me who live with homophobic parents.

 

On 5/13/2020 at 11:46 PM, GD41586 said:

New life can't result from two men having "sex" with each other. No matter how badly you want to, no matter what surgery you get, two men or two women are NEVER going to be able to produce a new, unique life through their "sex" acts. There are two (count them: TWO) sets of human reproductive organs for a reason: when male + female come together sexually, a new life can potentially result. This is the entire reason why sex is pleasurable: Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) created it so that humans (and other animals) might multiply.

That's not a reason. Marriage is about more than just sex and children. Does that mean it's morally wrong to marry even if you're infertile? Should old people get divorced if their kids have all moved out? Is it haram to get a vesectomy? If you answer no to any of those questions, then your reasoning is flawed, and that can't be a reason that being gay is wrong.

 

On 5/13/2020 at 11:46 PM, GD41586 said:

I've dealt with suicidal ideation for years & am just beginning to get decent treatment for it.

That sucks, and I'm glad you're getting treatment.

 

On 5/13/2020 at 11:46 PM, GD41586 said:

Suicide is a choice

But this is dangerous talk. Whatever about suicide, but suicidal thoughts? That's not a choice. Don't blame yourself for your suicidal thoughts. It's people saying stuff like that which is the reason that mental illnesses are still a taboo topic in the Islamic community. People are afraid to tell people they've got issues because of the stigma. I'm glad if it helped you, but it's not good to victim blame. And I hope you continue to get better.

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On 5/15/2020 at 8:10 AM, gayboyanon said:

Sorry, that doesn't make it easy for people like me who live with homophobic parents.

That's not a reason. Marriage is about more than just sex and children. Does that mean it's morally wrong to marry even if you're infertile? Should old people get divorced if their kids have all moved out? Is it haram to get a vesectomy? If you answer no to any of those questions, then your reasoning is flawed, and that can't be a reason that being gay is wrong.

That sucks, and I'm glad you're getting treatment.

But this is dangerous talk. Whatever about suicide, but suicidal thoughts? That's not a choice. Don't blame yourself for your suicidal thoughts. It's people saying stuff like that which is the reason that mental illnesses are still a taboo topic in the Islamic community. People are afraid to tell people they've got issues because of the stigma. I'm glad if it helped you, but it's not good to victim blame. And I hope you continue to get better.

Salam Brother, I see you are frustrated and it is not helping that the responses you are getting from everyone on here are rarely empathetic or understanding of this situation. They are mostly right though, if your a believer if Shia Islam and teachings of Ahlulbayt there is no place for acting on  same sex desires. Unless we can prove that all the different Hadiths that have been often referenced are fake? Allah knows the best reason why He chose to put us through this difficult situation. There is no black and white answer or solution, it is all grey from my understanding. You have to learn how to live with that greyness. There will be times where you feel you gave a grip on the homosexual desires and other times you won’t. Just remember Allah is the most merciful and there is always room for forgiveness and coming back on the right path ‘siraat e mustakeen’

Often people who have same sex desires are thought of as useless and without any purpose. I have a personal anology that keeps me going strong. I believe that people with same sex desires are proof from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that he is the creator and we are not a product of evolution. Same-sex attraction slaps Darwin’s Theory of Evolution right on its face and is a living breathing proof of creationism. In fact if anything, the Muslim Ummah and followers of the holy books shall be thanking homosexuals for existing to prove that Allah is the creator. If evolution was to take its course from monkeys to humans than same-sex traits will have vanished in natural selection? 

On that thought, take care of yourself. This last ashra (ten days) of Ramadan are the best to seek dua for our lives and those we love. 

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On 5/15/2020 at 2:38 PM, GD41586 said:

Do you want to be gay? What I mean is, I can see how clearly painful this is for you & this leads me to believe that you would not have chosen this if you could possibly change it. I don't mean to be offensive, I am just curious because I have heard many gays and lesbians state that "If I could change my orientation to be heterosexual, I would do it in a heartbeat"

I wouldn't. Because I don't know how. Because it is impossible for me to imagine being straight. I'm me. All my pain has helped me, has pushed me forward. Being gay is just a sexuality, but how can I take away the pain? I can't do that? But that doesn't matter because it's an impossible decision because nobody can make that decision.

 

On 5/15/2020 at 2:38 PM, GD41586 said:

Also: Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) loves you anyway, or you wouldn't be here responding to me. At least that's what I believe.

I believe that praying and stuff: That doesn't send you to Heaven. Helps you, sure, but if you fail to pray you're not going to Hell. If you're a good person, you're going to Hell. Being gay, having gay sex, doesn't make you a bad person, so it can't send you to Hell. Fiqh is different to Aqhlaq. Bad aqhlaq can send you to Hell, not bad Fiqh.

 

On 5/15/2020 at 2:38 PM, GD41586 said:

That's why 60% of American marriages fail within 5 years (I think the statistic goes).

Or maybe it's because they rush into it? Marriage is about commitment. But commitment of love.

 

On 5/17/2020 at 3:22 PM, Sidmid said:

Same-sex attraction slaps Darwin’s Theory of Evolution right on its face and is a living breathing proof of creationism.

Actually, no, it really doesn't. First, you can belive in evolution and creationism. Second, good on you. A lot of people will say that "there's no evolutionary advantage to homosexuality so it's wrong". Stuff like that. But no, there's a very simple evolutionary advantage to gay people. Just look at how many orphans there are in the world. There's not enough straight couples to look after all the children who need homes.

 

Let's look at it in a microcosm of society. Let's imagine a small village. There are just 2 families living there. Both are straight couples with 1 child each. The first couple dies, but before they died, they asked the other couple to look after their child if something happened to them. The second couple now has 2 children, but they can't produce enough to support 4 people. They give their food to their 2 children, but eventually die soon after due to the sacrifice they made for their children. They starved themselves. Eventually the children die because they can't support themselves.

 

Now, let's imagine there's a straight couple and a gay couple who are the only people living in the village. The straight couple has a child, the gay couple can't. Same as last time, the straight couple die and leave their child to the gay couple. And this time they actively wanted a child. With just 1 mouth to feed, they're able to give the child a better life and the whole village doesn't get wiped out.

 

So yeah, there's a very simple advantage to gay people. They look after tthe children that straight people are unable to.

 

@GD41586 You believe that the main purpose of marriage is to have children. OK. I want to get married to a guy. I want to adopt a child. I want to be a father. This isn't a hypothetical now, this is all true. People always seem to forget that gay people can adopt, that they look after the children that have been abandoned, or who have been orphaned. For the most part, children of gay parents won't feel unloved, because they could never have had a child by accident. What do you say to that?

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@gayboyanon Hypothetically, how can you be married to a man you're attracted to and it not becoming a physically intimate (sexual) relationship?

The purpose of marriage is two-fold: 1. To have lawful heterosexual intercourse, 2. To produce offspring with your spouse.

Hypothetical: Two heterosexually inclined men who live together indefinitiely for the purpose of adopting and raising a child. 

^This situation is nonsensical. These two heterosexually inclined men would certainly rather live indefinitely with women to whom they can be intimate with (they would marry na-mehram women).

Vice versa can be said about heterosexuall inclined women. Also note that in a relationship, both parties want to be satisfied sexually.

.........

Homosexually inclined individuals have a unique struggle in that it is Haram under any condition to be intimate with the same-sex.

The conversation ends there. Ok, they have to "struggle more" or at the least they have a unique struggle. What options are left? 1. Celibacy 2. Creative/novel (& unrealistic) solutions
Given the above framework, celibacy in this context does not allow for individuals to find love or raise children. (Raising children with a partner entails living with that partner indefinitely and one would only want to live with a partner indefinitely if they could engage in sexual activity with that person). All other Halal options are unrealistic when generally applied, but they may be sufficient in individual cases. e.g. Heterosexual marriage despite one partner indentifying as homosexual (in inclinations). e.g. Understaning homosexuality on an individual level as being a mix of both nature and nurture. e.g. Love attained over the course of marriage as overpowering the need for sexual intimacy e.g. Love allowing for sexual intimacy, despite not "swinging that way". e.g. Having one partner relieve their sexual desires in a lawful way with another person, e.g. Mutah, multiple wives, etc.  The list goes on and on. But quite frankly they are all ridiculous and one in a million. 

Arguably: love, marriage, child-raising are over-hyped. It could be a burden more than anything else. The heterosexual doesn't have a choice for the most part, he/she must fulfill their duty. The homosexual does not need to do so, because it would be unreasonable to search for heterosexual marriage knowing noone would be interested in doing so with a homosexual. That being said, the homosexual doesn't have a choice to choose the aformentioned. So it is also a loss.

You can spend your time much more efficiently, in much more productive endeavours, and have much more leisure time when you are celibate. You can do great things with your free time.

Plus, God will reward you bountifully for your patience and extra (unique) struggles.

Plus, since heterosexuality isn't taboo (though it should be outside of marriage), on average I would assume more heterosexuals have fallen for major heterosexual sins than homosexuals have fallen for major homosexual sins.

Still, it is likely unequal and thus "unfair" for homosexuals, but notably there is nothing epistemically wrong with such inequality from an Islamic perspective.

Edited by AmirioTheMuzzy
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6 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

they're able to give the child a better life and the whole village doesn't get wiped out.

this is just imagination of an ill minded man that want by spreading of fears like poverty & hunger fulfills cursed Shaitan (la) plans while Allah promised support of marriage of oppositse sex that will keep them safe from any fears & will provide food & all supports for them but amount it will be different on each couple but they will survive at the end.

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1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

this is just imagination of an ill minded man that want by spreading of fears like poverty & hunger fulfills cursed Shaitan (la) plans while Allah promised support of marriage of oppositse sex that will keep them safe from any fears & will provide food & all supports for them but amount it will be different on each couple but they will survive at the end.

A) Did you just call me ill-minded?

 

B) Allah has only given miracles like that to Prophets. And neither of you have explained how gay people adopting is somehow a bad thing.

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10 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

A) Did you just call me ill-minded?

 

B) Allah has only given miracles like that to Prophets. And neither of you have explained how gay people adopting is somehow a bad thing.

God does not give us burdens that we can't handle. If He made you gay, that means He expects you to lead a pious and righteous life despite that. It means that there is a halal solution to your problem, not one where you have to sin. Don't just accept it and not bother to overcome it. I think that you can be in a position to help many gay Muslims. If you overcome this then you would have very valuable insights on how others afflicted with these inclinations may overcome them and be set on the straight path

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4. As there is no sin so small, but it deserves damnation; so there is no sin so great, that it can bring damnation upon those who truly repent.

5. Men ought not to content themselves with a general repentance, but it is every man’s duty to endeavor to repent of his particular sins, particularly.

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  • 3 weeks later...
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The action is a sin, that's right! But they are human and it is only Allah and state law (if any) can punish them. We, as a human who commit sin as well, should give a chance for a repentance. Bullying is definitely have no place in Islam. So if your LGBT friends are muslim, its wise not to bullying but let them feel comfortable with ibadah, join the congregation and to get close to Allah. We just pray the best. May He guide them to straight path. The rest is none our bussiness.

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On 4/17/2020 at 6:25 AM, AdinAnikas said:

Now my question is that is it wrong to not hate them and bully them cuz i think that we’re all human and should care about each other. One way to put it properly is that i dont hate them and neither do i love them, im just neutral and apparently thats wrong cuz idk

You should love them.  Loving doesn’t mean following and doing what they do.  One should love everyone because everyone is created by God’s mercy.  

Quote

so will someone please tell me if me not hating them is a sin cuz i am a human and i dont want to go around telling people that we should behead them 

You should love them. This is because not loving them is a sin.  
 

This is common sense.  This is true authentic religion.  What all religions teach and ought to teach.

Edited by eThErEaL
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15 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

One should love everyone because everyone is created by God’s mercy

Salam there is many creators of Allah that we must hate them like Shaitan /Satan & cursed Muawiah his cursed son Yazid (la) also do you love Corona (Covid -19) because it's a creation of of God & loving it is not a sin !?:grin: also homosexuality is an innovation of Shaitan for perishing humans & who loves it is a Shaitan in form of human.

Quote

قُلْ أَعُوذُ بِرَبِّ النَّاسِ ﴿١ مَلِكِ النَّاسِ ﴿٢ إِلَـٰهِ النَّاسِ ﴿٣ مِن شَرِّ الْوَسْوَاسِ الْخَنَّاسِ ﴿٤ الَّذِي يُوَسْوِسُ فِي صُدُورِ النَّاسِ ﴿٥ مِنَ الْجِنَّةِ وَالنَّاسِ ﴿٦

Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind, (1) The Sovereign of mankind. (2) The God of mankind, (3) From the evil of the retreating whisperer - (4) Who whispers [evil] into the breasts of mankind - (5) From among the jinn and mankind." (6)

http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/114:2

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On 5/21/2020 at 4:43 PM, thegreenleaf said:

I think one problem is that many of us, contemporary Muslims, look at issues like this from a mixed perspective; part traditional and part modern.

Excellent post.

You hit it on the nail about the identity issue.  Modern societies make quite a big deal about having an identity.  A Muslim in the true sense of the term is someone who surrenders all presumed identities to God (thereby becoming self-less) while acknowledging only His Right to Identity Himself (for He alone is Haq- The Real).  
 

Tawhid was strongly embedded into the consciousness of a traditional Islamic society.  

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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On 5/20/2020 at 11:03 PM, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

Homosexually inclined individuals have a unique struggle in that it is Haram under any condition to be intimate with the same-sex.

Also, everybody has to struggle in life.  Life is a struggle.  People complain like as if they are the only ones struggling (this is part of their delusion).  It is not just people who identify themselves as homosexuals who struggle. There is nothing wrong with struggling as it is part of life.  What makes people suffer from their struggling is their identifications.  The root cause of suffering, psychologically, is because of one’s identification as “this” or as “that”.

 

Edited by eThErEaL
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On 6/13/2020 at 11:17 AM, eThErEaL said:

Also, everybody has to struggle in life.  Life is a struggle.  People complain like as if they are the only ones struggling (this is part of their delusion).  It is not just people who identify themselves as homosexuals who struggle. There is nothing wrong with struggling as it is part of life.  What makes people suffer from their struggling is their identifications.  The root cause of suffering, psychologically, is because of one’s identification as “this” or as “that”.

 

There is one thing I hate more than any other in these sorts of discussions. Victim blaming. How dare you blame gay people for their own suffering. What's next? Are black people responsible for their own suffering because they identify as black? Do they have to pour bleach over themselves and pass as white or else they're responsible for their own suffering? Oh, oh, oh, here's where your logic falls flat. Are Muslim women responsible for their own suffering because they identify as Muslim? Because they wear a headscarf? No. Gay people are not responsible for homophobia, black people are not responsible for racism, Muslims are not responsible for homophobia. Do not blame the victim. Because then you have no right to complain about Islamophobia.

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55 minutes ago, gayboyanon said:

There is one thing I hate more than any other in these sorts of discussions. Victim blaming. How dare you blame gay people for their own suffering. What's next? Are black people responsible for their own suffering because they identify as black? Do they have to pour bleach over themselves and pass as white or else they're responsible for their own suffering? Oh, oh, oh, here's where your logic falls flat. Are Muslim women responsible for their own suffering because they identify as Muslim? Because they wear a headscarf? No. Gay people are not responsible for homophobia, black people are not responsible for racism, Muslims are not responsible for homophobia. Do not blame the victim. Because then you have no right to complain about Islamophobia.

He said their suffering is from them identifying primarily or substantially with their sexual orientation. It's an entirely modern phenomena unlike identifying with one's religion/ideology or tribe/ethnicity/race/kingdom/nation. 

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From a legalistic point of view...

Quote

For reasons that have not been adequately elucidated, Emāmi Shiʿi law is altogether harsher than Sunni law in dealing with homosexual acts. While the early Shiʿi hadith collections do not differ much in their content with regard to this topic from those of the Sunnis, legal works from the fourth/tenth century concentrate heavily on a distinction between penetrative and non-penetrative (explicitly, between the thighs) sexual acts between males, labeling the former simply “unbelief” (kofr) and reserving the term “sodomy” (lewāt, in contrast to the Sunni locution “act of the people of Lot”) for the latter. Both partners in a penetrative act are to be executed, regardless of eḥṣān, the method of execution being at the discretion of the judge, a verdict maintained throughout the subsequent Emāmi tradition down to the present (although the label “kofr” was eventually dropped). Non-penetrative acts (including all those between women as well as those between men) were more controversial, some jurists maintaining that the moḥṣan is to be stoned and the non-moḥṣan to be given one hundred lashes, others that both offenders are to be given one hundred lashes, regardless of eḥṣān; over time the latter, milder view gradually won out (see, e. g., Ruḥ-Allāh Ḵomeyni, Tawżiḥ al-masāʾel, Qom, 1985, pp. 102-8). Neither the Zaydis nor the Isma-ʿilis emulated the strictness of the Emāmis, but adopted views similar to those of the Sunni Šāfeʿis.

 

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3 minutes ago, OrthodoxTruth said:

Thank you for sharing brother, however, this is only applicable within an Islamic state and the Imam has the choice to not carry out this punishment, correct?

Also, the homosexuals who receive such a punishment are they Muslims who are shown to be intelligible to the defects of homosexuality and the corruption in the land which such an action may bring, or does this ruling apply to any resident of the Islamic State irrespective of whether they knew about the severity of the crime they were committing.

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2 minutes ago, Mohammad313Ali said:

Thank you for sharing brother, however, this is only applicable within an Islamic state and the Imam has the choice to not carry out this punishment, correct?

All depends on the marja’ that one follows. This fragment seems to indicate active application of sharia punishments in this dunya, as the fragment was written based on the writings of Ayatollah Khomeini, and Iran does implement corporal punishments. Other maraji’ disagree with implementation of some or any punishments before the reappearance of Imam al-Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف), but that’s another topic in its entirety. 

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Also, the homosexuals who receive such a punishment are they Muslims who are shown to be intelligible to the defects of homosexuality and the corruption in the land which such an action may bring, or does this ruling apply to any resident of the Islamic State irrespective of whether they knew about the severity of the crime they were committing.

Maraji’ should be our point of reference on fiqh issues. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best. 

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13 hours ago, gayboyanon said:

There is one thing I hate more than any other in these sorts of discussions. Victim blaming. How dare you blame gay people for their own suffering. What's next? Are black people responsible for their own suffering because they identify as black? Do they have to pour bleach over themselves and pass as white or else they're responsible for their own suffering? Oh, oh, oh, here's where your logic falls flat. Are Muslim women responsible for their own suffering because they identify as Muslim? Because they wear a headscarf? No. Gay people are not responsible for homophobia, black people are not responsible for racism, Muslims are not responsible for homophobia. Do not blame the victim. Because then you have no right to complain about Islamophobia.

How dare I?  You are getting emotional now.  Just take it easy please.  

Yes, anyone who identifies with anything necessarily suffers. Whether one identifies himself or herself as homo or hetero, black or white, male or female, beautiful or ugly, rich or poor, Muslim or non-Muslim, believer or disbeliever...etc... any identification will inevitably make one suffer.  An identity is a limitation.  And wherever the limit ends suffering inevitably ensues.  We are all created from one soul.  We have a spirit that is beyond such restrictions and limitations.  This Spirit is our real nature.  

You can look it in the reverse way.  Any  suffering you are experiencing right now is simply due to the fact that you are identifying yourself “as something”.  We all suffer in different ways.  

I am not the one that said we should hate homos btw.  I don’t think we should hate anyone.  

Edited by eThErEaL
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12 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

He said their suffering is from them identifying primarily or substantially with their sexual orientation. It's an entirely modern phenomena unlike identifying with one's religion/ideology or tribe/ethnicity/race/kingdom/nation. 

Yes, to identify with sexual orientation is a recent modern phenomena. 
but I would even extend it further to religion and ideology.  Identification is a universal cause for suffering in general— it is simply a metaphysical axiom. 

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22 hours ago, AmirioTheMuzzy said:

He said their suffering is from them identifying primarily or substantially with their sexual orientation. It's an entirely modern phenomena unlike identifying with one's religion/ideology or tribe/ethnicity/race/kingdom/nation. 

Coat it how you want, it’s victim blaming.

 

people don’t go round saying that muslims’ suffering is because they identify as Muslim. Like I said, blaming victims of disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.

 

people are dead. People have been murdered. Again, how dare you blame the dead on their own murders.

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On 5/11/2020 at 8:41 PM, gayboyanon said:

Basically, you're saying that gay people shouldn't get to find love.

Are gay people not capable of loving someone of the opposite sex? I think the issue is more about whether they are able to be in a sexual relationship with someone they truly lust after.

 

On 5/11/2020 at 8:41 PM, gayboyanon said:

How? Gay sex is haram. Where does it say gay marriage is haram? People can be gay and celibate. I want to get married to a guy, but I ain't ready for sex. So I'd be doing nothing haram by getting married to a guy.

Why would God allow same-sex marriage, but not allow gay sex? Doesn't that seem unfair to you?

As for the issue of 'gay marriage', to understand why it isn't allowed in Islam, just look at marriage between a man and a woman in Islam. None of it would make any sense when applied to two people of the same sex. Reduced to it's most basic elements, marriage is a contract where the woman guarantees sex and the man guarantees maintenance (note for the easily triggered: I'm not saying that's all marriage is, but clearly when you look at the obligations of men and women in marriage, that's the bottom line). When applied to two men, it doesn't work. To start with who pays and receives the mahr? 

On 5/11/2020 at 8:41 PM, gayboyanon said:

Who says? From what I've heard, that's gay sex that's not allowed, not gay marriage.

It's not so much a case of 'not allowed', as not making any sense. Until very recently nobody even conceived of such a thing as 'gay marriage'. It just didn't fit into the categories people thought in. By the way, it is also the case that traditionally gay thinkers have been the biggest critics of marriage, and many are not happy with the push towards gay marriage. The main purpose it serves is to make homosexuality fully acceptable in society. If it weren't for that, it's unlikely gay marriage would have ever happened. And if you look at most gay marriages, they tend to be 'open', and not really like most traditional marriages (although there seems to be a developing trend towards 'polyamory' amongst heterosexuals as well).

 

On 5/11/2020 at 8:41 PM, gayboyanon said:

If a Sheikh allows music, due to his interpretation of the Quran, would that too be a farce? Cause different scholars have different interpretations.

Sure, but those interpretations don't come out of thing air. Just look at these verses in the Qur'an:

It has been made permissible for you the night preceding fasting to go to your wives [for sexual relations]. They are clothing for you and you are clothing for them. Allah knows that you used to deceive yourselves, so He accepted your repentance and forgave you. So now, have relations with them and seek that which Allah has decreed for you. [2:187]

It is He who created you from one soul and created from it its mate that he might dwell in security with her. And when he covers her, she carries a light burden and continues therein. And when it becomes heavy, they both invoke Allah, their Lord, "If You should give us a good [child], we will surely be among the grateful." [7:189]

And of His signs is that He created for you from yourselves mates that you may find tranquillity in them; and He placed between you affection and mercy. Indeed in that are signs for a people who give thought. [6:30]

Taken together these verses clearly show that Allah creates females as mates for men.

Do you approach males among the worlds and leave what your Lord has created for you as mates? But you are a people transgressing. [26:165-166]

This is in the context of the story of Lut (عليه السلام). Again we see the reference to women being creates as mates for males, and the criticism towards the people of Lut (عليه السلام) is that they approached males instead of the females that Allah had created as mates.

Your wives are a place of sowing of seed for you, so come to your place of cultivation however you wish and put forth [righteousness] for yourselves. And fear Allah and know that you will meet Him. And give good tidings to the believers. [2:223]

Notice the lack of mention of 'husbands' (and the patriarchal language).

Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females. [4:11]

Why is this? Because the expectation is that the females will get married to someone who will give them a mahr and provide for them. If the Qur'an recognised the concept of gay marriage, then this wouldn't make much sense.

And if he has divorced her [for the third time], then she is not lawful to him afterward until [after] she marries a husband other than him. And if the latter husband divorces her [or dies], there is no blame upon the woman and her former husband for returning to each other if they think that they can keep [within] the limits of Allah . [2:230]

How would this make sense for 'gay marriage'?

Prohibited to you [for marriage] are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your [milk] mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship [born] of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you. And [also prohibited are] the wives of your sons who are from your [own] loins, and that you take [in marriage] two sisters simultaneously, except for what has already occurred. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful. [4:23]

And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise. [4:24]

And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls. And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. [They should be] chaste, neither [of] those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly nor those who take [secret] lovers. But once they are sheltered in marriage, if they should commit adultery, then for them is half the punishment for free [unmarried] women. This [allowance] is for him among you who fears sin, but to be patient is better for you. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. [4:25]

Look at these verses. Why is there nothing about marrying men? Why not say that you can't marry your fathers or your brothers? Homosexuals clearly existed at the time. Why doesn't Allah address it in these lengthy passages, even in passing? It's very clear that it's simply assumed that men marry women. That's because the Qur'an is, in the modern jargon, a heteronormative and cisnormative book (not to mention patriarchal). You have to be honest with yourself about that.

And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice]. [4:3]

Again, no mention of marrying men.

Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand. [4:34]

Again, none of this makes any sense in the context of gay marriage. There is just nowhere in the Qur'an where you can find any sanction for such a concept, even indirectly. Everything is centred around marriage between men and women and marriage being the only permissible outlet for sexual pleasure. Homosexuality is clearly censured in the story of Lut (عليه السلام), and the rebuke is that those people went against the natural order of things. Now, this is just the Qur'an. Bringing in the teachings of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and his Ahulbayt (عليه السلام) is completely disastrous for a pro-homosexual position.

 

I think at this point you need to decide what you want to do. Do you want to try to figure out how to live a life that is pleasing to Allah, even if it may not give you maximal pleasure, or do you want to follow your desires, which may give you pleasure in the short term, but actually probably won't in the long term? Either way, being intellectually dishonest is probably not the way forward. Trying to find backing for the modern concept of gay marriage in Islam is a lost cause, even with the most elaborate mental gymnastics.

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