God is that than which Nothing Greater can be Conceived!

[eThErEaL]

God is that than which Nothing Greater can be Conceived!

Reflecting on this statement alone (of St. Anselm) is all that is needed to discover God in your heart with certitude.  Interestingly, and as noted by Ayatollah Jawadi Amuli, this statement is the equivalent of "Allahu Akbar", in fact this statement should be used as a more apt translation for "Allahu Akber". 

[eThErEaL]

Has anyone tried this by any chance?  It is not enough to think of God as existing.  You have to feel His presence right now!

Anyway,  nobody seems interested.  I guess, the polemics between Shia and Sunni is what people are mostly into.  

[Mzwakhe]

12 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

feel

it is a connection.

12 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

Anyway,  nobody seems interested

this connection goes from strong to weak - weak to strong.

& So are the trials that go with it. we are connected differently, due to different signal going hand in hand with deeds, either good or bad.

[Logic1234]

On 4/14/2020 at 5:22 AM, eThErEaL said:

  Interestingly, and as noted by Ayatollah Jawadi Amuli, this statement is the equivalent of "Allahu Akbar",

Salam, 

Are there any grades of greatness exist so that one may think this is great & this is greatest? Just asking!  

Edited April 18, 2020 by Logic1234
typo

[Guest Gorbash]

Isn't it funny how the God which 'none greater can be conceived' always turns out to be the one that the arguer prefers.

For instance St Anselm was arguing for a Trinity God, you probably perceive a different 'greater'.

My personal 'none greater that can be perceived' God would be one that manages to achieve all His goals without needing to resort to human suffering. 

Unfortunately It doesn't suddenly exist in reality just because we can think about it or we want it to exist.  
 

[eThErEaL]

8 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Salam, 

Are there any grades of greatness exist so that one may think this is great & this is greatest? Just asking!  

I don't see why not.  why do you ask...

 

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by eThErEaL

[eThErEaL]

10 hours ago, Logic1234 said:

Salam, 

Are there any grades of greatness exist so that one may think this is great & this is greatest? Just asking!  

Are you referring to Kant's critique of Anselm's ontological argument?  He says that "to exist" is not something that you can predicate to something and so things don't have more existence or less existence.  Existence, says Kant, is not an essence that can be compared to other essences.  It is merely nothing more than a concept which is useful to associate attributes to a subject (it is useful as a copula "is" for example, "the apple is red").   

 

[Guest Aqeel]

I think anselm arguments have some flaws

[Logic1234]

On 4/18/2020 at 8:03 PM, eThErEaL said:

I don't see why not.  why do you ask...

Salamun Alaikum! 

Please tell me the thing(s) can be conceived in mind as "great" from which God is greater. 
 

On 4/18/2020 at 10:56 PM, eThErEaL said:

Are you referring to Kant's critique of Anselm's ontological argument?  He says that "to exist" is not something that you can predicate to something and so things don't have more existence or less existence.  Existence, says Kant, is not an essence that can be compared to other essences.  It is merely nothing more than a concept which is useful to associate attributes to a subject (it is useful as a copula "is" for example, "the apple is red").   

Although I was not referring to it but this critique is interesting, so I would be more than happy to have your words on that too. 

 

[khamosh21]

On 4/14/2020 at 4:52 AM, eThErEaL said:

God is that than which Nothing Greater can be Conceived!

Reflecting on this statement alone (of St. Anselm) is all that is needed to discover God in your heart with certitude.  Interestingly, and as noted by Ayatollah Jawadi Amuli, this statement is the equivalent of "Allahu Akbar", in fact this statement should be used as a more apt translation for "Allahu Akber". 

 

I once asked God if He is there and listening, and He if He wants me to believe in Him, to just move my coffee mug by an inch, just to show me He is there. God went through tremendous effort of sending Prophets to help people believe in Him, surely moving a coffee mug isn't even comparable to sending a Prophet... sadly my coffee mug remained in place.

let me ask a different question, assuming God exists, how does He want us to gain certainty in Him, what method does He want us to use? more specifically, how can a "sinner" - a sinner from God's point of view - gain certainty while sinning?

Edited April 21, 2020 by khamosh21

[Aqeels]

anslem ontological argument indeed have some flaw

[eThErEaL]

15 hours ago, Aqeels said:

anslem ontological argument indeed have some flaw

Mashallah, you are a man of few words.  Mind elaborating please.  in what way do you find it flawed.  let us discuss.

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by eThErEaL

[guest 2025]

17 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

 

I once asked God if He is there and listening, and He if He wants me to believe in Him, to just move my coffee mug by an inch, just to show me He is there. God went through tremendous effort of sending Prophets to help people believe in Him, surely moving a coffee mug isn't even comparable to sending a Prophet... sadly my coffee mug remained in place.

let me ask a different question, assuming God exists, how does He want us to gain certainty in Him, what method does He want us to use? more specifically, how can a "sinner" - a sinner from God's point of view - gain certainty while sinning?

In addition to sincerity, perspective is also important. From my point of view, the cup did change position as the earth spun, and it did move as you picked it up off the table (La Hawla Wala Quwwata illa Billah)

 

[eThErEaL]

On 4/21/2020 at 1:50 AM, Logic1234 said:

Salamun Alaikum! 

Please tell me the thing(s) that can be conceived in mind as "great" from which God is greater. 

The phrase under discussion is worded in a very peculiar way (take note of it).  It doesn’t say that God is the greatest conceivable reality. Rather, it is phrased in a way that does not necessarily imply that God can be put in relative comparison to anything else.  This is because it is phrased through a negative (via negativa)

So, think of it like this:

That than which nothing “greater” can be conceived is also that than which nothing “lesser” can be conceived.  That than which nothing greater can be conceived is  An absoluteness which is beyond even the binary categories of absolute vs relative.  We provisionally call it “absoluteness” but this is just a name.  It is in fact nameless for it is beyond conception and labels.  This reality that is nameless, beyond binary categories of absoluteness and relativity, existence and non-existence, is that than which nothing greater can be conceived. 

In other words, in contemplating the meaning of the statement you should get a glimpse of that which is beyond conception (if only for an instant).  That which is veiling us is nothing but us being caught in this play between the relative comparisons of conceptions (which are necessarily binary).   We like and dislike.  This is day, not night.  This is up not down.  This is greater not lesser.  Etc etc.  This is the play of our mind.  And God is not in this play.  he is master of this play!  He creates this play!  Through His Reality this play IS.  It is through His Being, His ISness that this play of opposites can even be said to exist.  So this phrase of Anselm is inviting us to take interest not in this or that but rather in the fact that this or that IS.  It is inviting us to see the ISness that fact that this and that IS.  Because this ISness is God.  

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Although I was not referring to it but this critique is interesting, so I would be more than happy to have your words on that too. 

[eThErEaL]

17 hours ago, Aqeels said:

anslem ontological argument indeed have some flaw

I disagree.  

[eThErEaL]

19 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

 

I once asked God if He is there and listening, and He if He wants me to believe in Him, to just move my coffee mug by an inch, just to show me He is there. God went through tremendous effort of sending Prophets to help people believe in Him, surely moving a coffee mug isn't even comparable to sending a Prophet... sadly my coffee mug remained in place.

If you were to ask God to move the mug, and if the cup subsequently moved, this would not give you certainty in God.  It might psychologically compel you to believe a god exists, but not God.  If God were to answer you, He would be doing you a disfavor because it would be like Him tricking you or deceiving you to believe in other than Him, because His reality is far more obvious and self-evident than a being you would be compelled to move a mug by simply you asking for it to be moved.  

19 hours ago, khamosh21 said:

let me ask a different question, assuming God exists, how does He want us to gain certainty in Him, what method does He want us to use? more specifically, how can a "sinner" - a sinner from God's point of view - gain certainty while sinning?

He doesn’t want you to use anything to know Him.  He simply wants you to do nothing but find that reality within you which is always and already knowing Him (call it spirit or ruh, call it fitrah, call it awareness, call it whatever... you have it in you already).  You are already knowing Him, it is just that you are not seeing this clearly.  The only sin is in you ignoring  this super-ordinary and self-evident knowing.  

The situation is like this:

You have an choice to either see the mirror Itself (God) or the reflections (i.e. reflected objects) in mirror.  If you see the reflections and are distracted them, you are still not looking at anything but the very substance of the mirror.  The Mirror is always already there, it is 100% present despite all the reflections.  They don’t hinder the presence nor do they add to its presence.

when you fast, pray, or “avoid haram”, these activities don’t make you “attain” something.  They simply are supposed to help you in being less distracted by the reflections that scatter your mind and attention, they are supposed to help you become truly interested in this super ordinary and most obvious reality which is 100% present and which you don’t need to “do” anything in order to know since you AlREADY are knowing it.  You ARE this knowing.  

[Ashvazdanghe]

1 hour ago, eThErEaL said:

That than which nothing “greater” can be conceived is also that than which nothing “lesser” can be conceived.

his hand bigger or his foot he puts inside hell 

[islam25]

On 4/14/2020 at 5:52 AM, eThErEaL said:

God is that than which Nothing Greater can be Conceived!

Reflecting on this statement alone (of St. Anselm) is all that is needed to discover God in your heart with certitude.  Interestingly, and as noted by Ayatollah Jawadi Amuli, this statement is the equivalent of "Allahu Akbar", in fact this statement should be used as a more apt translation for "Allahu Akber". 

That is graet.Should be realises.

[eThErEaL]

35 minutes ago, islam25 said:

That is graet.Should be realises.

No.  Not realize, but conceive.  
the statement is perfect.  The “greater than” is something that belongs to the conceiving mind because only in conception is there comparison and relativity.   

Edited April 22, 2020 by eThErEaL

[khamosh21]

45 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

If you were to ask God to move the mug, and if the cup subsequently moved, this would not give you certainty in God.  It might psychologically compel you to believe a god exists, but not God.  If God were to answer you, He would be doing you a disfavor because it would be like Him tricking you or deceiving you to believe in other than Him, because His reality is far more obvious and self-evident than a being you would be compelled to move a mug by simply you asking for it to be moved.  

He doesn’t want you to use anything to know Him.  He simply wants you to do nothing but find that reality within you which is always and already knowing Him (call it spirit or ruh, call it fitrah, call it awareness, call it whatever... you have it in you already).  You are already knowing Him, it is just that you are not seeing this clearly.  The only sin is in you ignoring  this super-ordinary and self-evident knowing.  

The situation is like this:

You have an choice to either see the mirror Itself (God) or the reflections (i.e. reflected objects) in mirror.  If you see the reflections and are distracted them, you are still not looking at anything but the very substance of the mirror.  The Mirror is always already there, it is 100% present despite all the reflections.  They don’t hinder the presence nor do they add to its presence.

when you fast, pray, or “avoid haram”, these activities don’t make you “attain” something.  They simply are supposed to help you in being less distracted by the reflections that scatter your mind and attention, they are supposed to help you become truly interested in this super ordinary and most obvious reality which is 100% present and which you don’t need to “do” anything in order to know since you AlREADY are knowing it.  You ARE this knowing.  

Strange then that God use tricks like miracles to try and convince people... or how do you choose to interpret prophetic miracles like splitting the moon, bringing dead to life, moving trees, fortelling the future, teleporting etc?

My situation is like this: i've become bored with praying and repeating acts of worship, I feel i could have been reciting gibberish for the past 30 plus years and I would probably be just the same. I am a sinner that wishes to stop sinning and wants to find Allah and Reality, however any time I stop sinning and turn to worship, I get so bored that the only way I can fill my time is by entertainment and sinning. If the sins result in real spiritual consequences, I would like to see those consequences, and if the acts of worship result in something real, I want to see and feel this something real.

Intellectual arguments no longer appease me... I want to see, simple as that... just show me reality, any part of this unseen reality and I will have at least a small drop of certainty.

 

[eThErEaL]

10 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Strange then that God use tricks like miracles to try and convince people... or how do you choose to interpret prophetic miracles like splitting the moon, bringing dead to life, moving trees, fortelling the future, teleporting etc?

That is meant to prove prophecy... isn’t it?  This is what Shia theology says at least.  Miracles prove prophecy.  

 

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My situation is like this: i've become bored with praying and repeating acts of worship, I feel i could have been reciting gibberish for the past 30 plus years and I would probably be just the same. I am a sinner that wishes to stop sinning and wants to find Allah and Reality, however any time I stop sinning and turn to worship, I get so bored that the only way I can fill my time is by entertainment and sinning. If the sins result in real spiritual consequences, I would like to see those consequences, and if the acts of worship result in something real, I want to see and feel this something real.

Let’s discuss this privately maybe.  
 

but basically, why don’t you continue with the “sinning”.  Since religion is boring (and I don’t doubt your judgment, as you have a right to make this judgement), why do you brother returning to it?

 

Quote

Intellectual arguments no longer appease me... I want to see, simple as that... just show me reality, any part of this unseen reality and I will have at least a small drop of certainty.

If you want to see something of the unseen it is Very easy.  Just take Iowaska.  

warning:  I am not encouraging anyone to take any drugs.  
 

Edited April 22, 2020 by eThErEaL

[Ashvazdanghe]

56 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

Just take Iowaska.

with using any drug you just see illumination of Shaitan (la) or god that has hand & leg & other body parts  like wahabists & Sufis.

[khamosh21]

9 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

That is meant to prove prophecy... isn’t it?  This is what Shia theology says at least.  Miracles prove prophecy.  

And Prophecy proves God - one and the same aren't they? so why are Prophets using tricks to prove their prophecy? and it's only fair that I also ask for these tricks, otherwise God is quite unfair that he shows tricks to some people and not to others? why the difference?

12 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

but basically, why don’t you continue with the “sinning”.  Since religion is boring (and I don’t doubt your judgment, as you have a right to make this judgement), why do you brother returning to it?

good question... because I doubt that maybe religion is real... and have been trying to prove that true or made up... thus these questions. My prayer to God is to forgive my sins and give me certainty in Him... to help me not get bored with religion.

 

14 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

If you want to see something of the unseen it is Very easy.  Just take Iowaska.

Given the opportunity, I will.

[islam25]

45 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

No.  Not realize, but conceive.  
the statement is perfect.  The “greater than” is something that belongs to the conceiving mind because only in conception is there comparison and relativity.   

That is ok

[eThErEaL]

23 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

And Prophecy proves God - one and the same aren't they?

not really.

It would be a better response if you say: “by your logic, no prayer should ever be answered by God. As that is deception.”

I obviously don’t mean this. I was a bit too extreme in my usage of words (with deception).  I simply wanted to emphasize that even if the mug were to move it wouldn’t give you any certitude in Him, if anything at all, it would be a psychological reaction to believe in Him (a psychological reaction devoid of certitude), and as such it would not be long lasting, it would transient and short lived.  

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So why are Prophets using tricks to prove their prophecy? 
 

Actually, miracles don’t even “prove” prophecy.  Miracles are simply an occasion for people to bear witness that he is a prophet of God.  This is why not everyone has faith when a miracle occurs.  Miracles don’t “cause” faith in the hearts.

 

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good question... because I doubt that maybe religion is real... and have been trying to prove that true or made up... thus these questions. My prayer to God is to forgive my sins and give me certainty in Him... to help me not get bored with religion.

If religion is boring and not fun you should really throw it away.  And I really mean this.  Think of it this way: God probably wants you to throw it away.  I mean, you should just do what you really enjoy and have fun doing.  If it is sinning, continue to just sin.  Sin till you drop if this is fun.  Because you ought to do what is fun, not what is boring.  Honestly.

[khamosh21]

Here are some things which I can't make any sense of:

How was this world made and why was it made this way - let's assume Allah created us so that we may all reach Point X (PX) - whatever x eg. m'arifa, knowledge etc - we don't need to define it.

Now to get something that is not at PX, is this world the most efficient way to get us to PX? Are Prophets, gurus, saints, and ancient texts the best and most efficient way to knowing reality? Is meditation, chanting mantras, praying, repetition, and all the while trying to stay alive, survive,  and tame this animal body and desires - is this the best way?

Wouldn't we agree that results will tell us if this method is efficient? sadly it seems only a minority is able to reach PX...

[khamosh21]

4 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

If religion is boring and not fun you should really throw it away.  And I really mean this.  Think of it this way: God probably wants you to throw it away.  I mean, you should just do what you really enjoy and have fun doing.  If it is sinning, continue to just sin.  Sin till you drop if this is fun.  Because you ought to do what is fun, not what is boring.  Honestly.

Just wondering which hadith or verse of Quran I should refer to?

[eThErEaL]

2 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

How was this world made and why was it made this way - let's assume Allah created us so that we may all reach Point X (PX) - whatever x eg. m'arifa, knowledge etc - we don't need to define it.

Now to get something that is not at PX, is this world the most efficient way to get us to PX? Are Prophets, gurus, saints, and ancient texts the best and most efficient way to knowing reality? Is meditation, chanting mantras, praying, repetition, and all the while trying to stay alive, survive,  and tame this animal body and desires - is this the best way?

Wouldn't we agree that results will tell us if this method is efficient? sadly it seems only a minority is able to reach PX...

Khamosh,

chanting, mantras, prayers, fasting and all rites and activities, are responses to the Blessed Eternal Presence of Ultimate Reality, they don't cause It.    

[khamosh21]

Just now, eThErEaL said:

Khamosh,

chanting, mantras, prayers, fasting and all rites and activities, are responses to the Blessed Eternal Presence of Ultimate Reality, they don't cause It.    

What is the most efficient way to Ultimate Reality? Is this world around us a cause of deception or a cause for people people to reach Ultimate Reality? The results speak for themselves!

[eThErEaL]

4 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Just wondering which hadith or verse of Quran I should refer to?

Pascals wager wouldn't work here.   

[eThErEaL]

7 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

What is the most efficient way to Ultimate Reality? Is this world around us a cause of deception or a cause for people people to reach Ultimate Reality? The results speak for themselves!

There is no "way" to that which is already directly present (to that which is always already right here and right now).  There is no thing which "takes-us-away-from" the Direct Presence of Ultimate Reality, and there is no thing which "makes-us-reach" It.  

Edited April 22, 2020 by eThErEaL

[eThErEaL]

16 minutes ago, khamosh21 said:

Just wondering which hadith or verse of Quran I should refer to?

 If a some cult founder tells you something will you entertain him? Why should we treat the religions or Islam any different?

Just ignore and move on with life.  enjoy the things you enjoy doing.   

This is why pascals wager wouldn't work.  The only reason you take Islam seriously enough to doubt is because of social conditioning.  Think of it more like a a childhood trauma.

Edited April 22, 2020 by eThErEaL

[khamosh21]

5 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

There is no "way" to that which is already directly present (to that which is always already right here and right now).  There is no thing which "takes-us-away-from" the Direct Presence of Ultimate Reality, and there is no thing which "makes-us-reach" It.  

I understand that you feel/think that you are addressing my questions/arguments, and in your head you probably are. However as the addressee of your answer, I do not feel you have addressed the argument or question i've raised.

Why are we not all, or a large majority of people, not able to see, comprehend, or realize this Ultimate Reality?

[khamosh21]

7 minutes ago, eThErEaL said:

 If a some cult founder tells you something will you entertain him? Why should we treat the religions or Islam any different?

Just ignore and move on with life.  enjoy the things you enjoy doing.   

This is why pascals wager wouldn't work.  The only reason you take Islam seriously enough to doubt is because of social conditioning.  Think of it more like a a childhood trauma.

I do feel like like it is a cult, that's the exact word I thought of as well, quite some time ago... Shia Islam is a lot like a cult.

I do recognize that it is conditioning, but at same time I want to know if everything talk about is real or not.

[Logic1234]

3 hours ago, eThErEaL said:

 It is in fact nameless for it is beyond conception and labels.  This reality that is nameless, beyond binary categories of absoluteness and relativity, existence and non-existence, is that than which nothing greater can be conceived. 

HU

Thanks for this beautiful explanation.